What do you teach re. Joan of Arc?

[Harriet Vane]

But I guess I was always told that God spoke to the prophets in the Old Testament because He was still forming the written Word - and that's part of the way He did it. But now that we have the written Scriptures, we don't need to hear an audible voice anymore.

 

 

 

Speaking gently here . . . I don't know of anywhere in Scripture that makes this claim. As such, this seems to impose a human limitation on our infinite God. I have heard this doctrinal perspective before, and it has never made sense to me because I have not been able to verify it biblically. I am not attacking this perspective, or you--just dialoging about it, sharing perspective.

 

As for Joan of Arc, I told my kids that she felt she heard voices from God. I believe it is completely possible to hear from God in this or any number of ways. We had an interesting discussion about it. In situations like this where I am unsure of what really happened, and have no real way to verify it, we discuss all the different possibilities, weighing the evidence and mulling over those possibilities together.

[KidsHappen]

religious experiences such as divine encounters, visions and voices. I have heard of this explanation offered for both Joan of Arc and St. Paul and even Mohammad.

 

http://www.clinicallypsyched.com/neurotheologywithgodinmind.htm

 

http://www.science-spirit.org/article_detail.php?article_id=130

 

http://www.jcrt.org/archives/01.3/game.shtml

 

You can find do a search on epilepsy and and any of the following: transendental experiences, religious experiences, ecstasy, rapture, etc. and find tons of info.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

But I guess I was always told that God spoke to the prophets in the Old Testament because He was still forming the written Word - and that's part of the way He did it. But now that we have the written Scriptures, we don't need to hear an audible voice anymore.

I would be interested to see what others have as to scriptures that back this view.

[Parrothead]

Would you mind expounding a little on how it is exactly the Pope receives him directions or perhaps point me to a link that would help me understand this? Thanks.

God doesn't "tell" the Pope what to do or say. The Pope prays to God and the Holy Spirit to inspire him, and give him wisdom, so that His Holiness may speak and lead the church on matters of faith according to God's will.

 

What Catholic do believe is that the pope will be prevented from declaring anything to be doctrine which is not true.

 

The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is infallible at closely defined times.

 

The Pope is only infallible when he, in union with the body of bishops, solemnly teaches that a doctrine as true. This is called "ex cathedra", literally meaning in Latin "from the chair".

 

This comes from the words of Jesus to Peter (the first Pope) and the Apostles (the first bishops), "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matthew 18:18) and "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16).

 

At all other times the Pope can be just as wrong or sinful as anyone else and be in need of forgiveness.

 

The last time a Pope spoke 'from the chair' was in 1950 when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as being an article of faith.

 

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 891: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1s...

 

And an article from New Advent on the Pope's infallibility: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB

 

And another

http://www.americancatholic.org/messenger/aug2004/Wiseman.asp

 

ETA: I don't have a problem with St. Joan of Arc hearing voices or seeing angles. I don't think she was crazy.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Parrothead

[KidsHappen]

God doesn't "tell" the Pope what to do or say. The Pope prays to God and the Holy Spirit to inspire him, and give him wisdom, so that His Holiness may speak and lead the church on matters of faith according to God's will.

 

What Catholic do believe is that the pope will be prevented from declaring anything to be doctrine which is not true.

 

The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is infallible at closely defined times.

 

The Pope is only infallible when he, in union with the body of bishops, solemnly teaches that a doctrine as true. This is called "ex cathedra", literally meaning in Latin "from the chair".

 

This comes from the words of Jesus to Peter (the first Pope) and the Apostles (the first bishops), "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matthew 18:18) and "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16).

 

At all other times the Pope can be just as wrong or sinful as anyone else and be in need of forgiveness.

 

The last time a Pope spoke 'from the chair' was in 1950 when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as being an article of faith.

 

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 891: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1s...

 

And an article from New Advent on the Pope's infallibility: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB

 

And another

http://www.americancatholic.org/messenger/aug2004/Wiseman.asp

 

ETA: I don't have a problem with St. Joan of Arc hearing voices or seeing angles. I don't think she was crazy.

 

Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for.

[Danestress]

Just kidding. I teach my children that she believed she heard voices.

[Spy Car]

What an interesting thread.

 

It does make me realize I have no better than a "cartoon" version understanding of the Joan d'Arc story, but if met with it unprepared I'd adopt the same take as Laura

 

As with other figures whose world view is very different from my own, I would tend to say, "She believed that she was hearing messages from God," and leave it at that, unless the children asked more. If they did, I would give them a chance to come up with alternative explanations.

 

 

On a broader level it is interesting to me that there seems to be almost inherent intra-faith tensions for people and groups who believe in a living God (or gods in the case of Polytheists) in terms of communing with God, and the bountry-lines of what is acceptable according to that branch of a tradition and what is not.

 

Take Islam for example. At the core of Islam every Muslim seeks to find peace though acting in accordance with God's will. That is what "Islam" means, although it is often inadequately translated as "submission".

 

So that is the goal. Muslims pray and observe the pillars of Islam to keep themselves in communion with God's will (although there are certain ideas about predestination that are beyond the scope of this simplified example).

 

Where a tension arises, is when groups differ in how much "communication" (of a sort) takes place between the divine and humans. In Islam the prophet Muhammad heard God's world through his [God's] agent, the Angel Jibril/Gabriel (the one we may know from the Book of Daniel). All agree on that.

 

But Muhammad was also "the seal of the prophets", meaning his was the final prophetic visitation.

 

For "conservative" schools of Islamic jurisprudence, such as the Shafi`i (which includes groups such as the dominate sect in Sa'udi usually refered to as Wahhabis in the West, althoght they dislike the term and prefer Muwahuddun or Unitarian) there is a strong emphasis on "scripture" (that is to say the Qur'an, and to a lesser extent the hadiths or "saying of the prophet" being the guiding documents to defining God's will. This school is very distrusting (or even hostile) to what might be called charismatic or ecstatic experience.

 

But then there are groups like the Sufi, who embrace and cultivate ecstatic experience of God. Sometimes called "whirring dervishes" they seek to feel God in a very direct fashion. Not that they claim "prophesy", but even treading on that path is not happiness making to the Shafi`i.

 

What's my point? I guess I imagine those who believe in God would naturally seek some level of communication with him. To seek guidance, to feel a "call", to feel love or support in times of need. Or rebukes when one has gone astray.

 

And yet anytime "lines of communication" are open I'd have to imagine others with-in a faith might feel the need be skeptical of another persons communications (especially if their branch was less open to "direct experience") in fear it might start treading into false prophesy, self-serving invention, mental illness, or some other form of "heresy".

 

And those tensions seem to something that any faith would have to find the terms of what is "acceptable" and what is not, and I can't imagine it being an entirely easy thing to do.

 

Bill

[unsinkable]

If anyone is sincerely looking for Biblical answers, I did my best to find the scriptures that apply without adding commentary, so that the scriptures can stand alone, speak for themselves, reach the heart, make their point...

 

I am having trouble paring it down without any kind of "flowery speech". Does that help any?

 

But when we read the quotes, what you think it is saying/means and what I think it is saying/means might be 2 different things.

 

I think my point it that just because you list Scriptures that you think apply it doesn't necessarily mean I think they apply.

 

I am not trying to argue but Scriptures can't speak for themselves, even metaphorically, IMO.

[Karen sn]

I think I forgot to hit submit before.

So, here I am again.

Why is it a big deal if she did hear voices?

Abraham heard a voice telling him to kill his own son. And he was willing to act on it!

Why is Joan crazy but Abraham's not?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

And what do you personally believe about her? I hope this isn't a hot button topic. I really want to know what different people teach/believe about this because I'm not quite sure exactly what I believe and we're studying this in history right now. My doctrinal understanding of the Bible has a problem with her hearing voices and having visions. And I guess I should add that my 20th century view of mental illness is a bit bothered too.

 

A little bit of a veer OT, but only a bit -- has anyone seen the series "Joan of Arcadia"? It explores this idea of God speaking to a young girl, though in a rather different manner than the original story.

[Lovedtodeath]

But when we read the quotes, what you think it is saying/means and what I think it is saying/means might be 2 different things.

 

I think my point it that just because you list Scriptures that you think apply it doesn't necessarily mean I think they apply.

 

I am not trying to argue but Scriptures can't speak for themselves, even metaphorically, IMO.

 

I pretty much always get explanations of one scripture from...

 

more scriptures!! Sometimes I might get information about the meanings of the Hebrew and Greek that the scriptures were written in. I think I know what you mean, because I do believe that we are not meant to read and understand without help from other people that God has chosen. My words have a lot less value, so I don't just say what I believe.

 

Also, I believe in the scriptures b/c it has been proven to me, not just on blind faith. So if you don't believe the scriptures to be inspired by the one Creator then that would change things as well. I also believe what I believe about the scriptures due to research, not just blind faith. I do believe that we are not meant to read and understand without help from other people that God has chosen, but that we should not believe what those people say unless we can find it in the scriptures ourselves and it meshes with the whole of the rest of the Bible. And I have scriptures that back up the beliefs in this paragraph as well.:D

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Oh. Now I understand. With all due respect, for me, I guess that turning to the scriptures is not especially helpful in forming an understanding of what the voices were all about. It makes more sense to me to look at the historical context, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

What do you feel we learn from the historical context?:bigear:

[Lovedtodeath]

I think I forgot to hit submit before.

So, here I am again.

Why is it a big deal if she did hear voices?

Abraham heard a voice telling him to kill his own son. And he was willing to act on it!

Why is Joan crazy but Abraham's not?

 

Hi Karen! I think I saw you post this before. To me, it is about the timing, which I have already explained.

[Karen sn]

Hi Karen! I think I saw you post this before. To me, it is about the timing, which I have already explained.

 

So.....are posts now being deleted and we're not even told?

They're just completely erased with no record?

[Karen sn]

 

Maybe a god was speaking to Joan of Arc.

 

There is a story in the Bible about a god who possessed a person and was following Paul around during his ministry. This god was very helpful to the local people. Acts 16:16-24

 

*A* god?

Care to elaborate? I am curious because you say this god was helpful.

I would look up Acts - but I just sat down. Will check it tomorrow for myself, but genuinely just curious as to your opinion. No snark whatsoever.

[Tutor]

A little bit of a veer OT, but only a bit -- has anyone seen the series "Joan of Arcadia"? It explores this idea of God speaking to a young girl, though in a rather different manner than the original story.

 

That was a great show! I was sad that they took it off the air. It was a great discussion starter.

[HappyCrazyMama]

So.....are posts now being deleted and we're not even told?

They're just completely erased with no record?

 

I just read this whole thread and your first post was on the bottom of page two, it has not been erased.

[Lovedtodeath]

Sorry, Karen, but I am afraid my answer might offend. I have tried to make it clear that I do believe that multiple gods exist, and that their existence being made known today or in times past does not disprove the existence or the supremecy of the One True God, the Creator of all else.

 

This particular god is not named in Acts, but there is speculation...

[Lovedtodeath]

sorry... Nakking.

 

(16:16-24) For days they were followed by a girl who had "a demon of divination" (literally, "a spirit of python"). The demon may have been Pythian Apollo, or may have been impersonating Pythian Apollo, a god that was believed to have killed a serpent named py´thon. The girl brought her masters much gain by practicing the art of prediction. Her masters were very angry when Paul cured the girl of possession, because they could no longer gain from it. This led to Paul's imprisonment.

[dcjlkplus3]

I can honestly say that I have never considered Joan of Arc controversial. I think that you are probably borrowing trouble to worry about this. If your children ask about it, explain that you don't know but that is what history tells us. Maybe be willing to look into, with them, any documentation on Joan and her voices.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, other than a final report on her life, we're done studying Joan. And my kids haven't batted an eye-lid about the whole thing! But I have found this whole thread as well as my own musings about it all, very helpful personally. This is one of the things I love about homeschooling - that I can go more in depth when I need to or want to. My dh has gotten involved in the discussion/study with me too so that's been kind of neat too!

[Pamela H in Texas]

Sorry, Karen, but I am afraid my answer might offend. I have tried to make it clear that I do believe that multiple gods exist, and that their existence being made known today or in times past does not disprove the existence or the supremecy of the One True God, the Creator of all else.

 

I also worry the answer may offend.

 

I believe people have set themselves up multiple "gods" and that others have set themselves up at "gods." I believe there is only one true God, the creator of everything.

 

Gods could be gods such as those we think of from multiple cultures and religions. Some held Jesus up as a god though he repeatedly rebuked them for doing so, gave glory only to the Father, was submissive to his Father in Heaven. God could also be things such as materialism, appearance, science, etc.

 

And then the scriptures talk about another god:

 

1) "the god of this system of things"

2) "the ruler of this world"

3) "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

 

Anyway, I had a HARD time wrapping my head around "other gods." But the scriptures are clear about these and that anything/anyone could be set up as a god.

 

But there is only one true God.

[KarenNC]

Some held Jesus up as a god though he repeatedly rebuked them for doing so, gave glory only to the Father, was submissive to his Father in Heaven. ..........

Anyway, I had a HARD time wrapping my head around "other gods." But the scriptures are clear about these and that anything/anyone could be set up as a god.

 

But there is only one true God.

 

So you follow the Christian Scriptures but are not Trinitarian? Or am I mistaken and you are Jewish or Muslim? Trying to get a feel for the worldview. If Christian, is there a particular denomination(s) who also hold to this? No offense, just curious. I'm always trying to learn more, as I find comparative religion fascinating.:)

Edited February 21, 2009 by KarenNC

[KarenNC]

(16:16-24) For days they were followed by a girl who had "a demon of divination" (literally, "a spirit of python"). The demon may have been Pythian Apollo, or may have been impersonating Pythian Apollo, a god that was believed to have killed a serpent named py´thon. The girl brought her masters much gain by practicing the art of prediction. Her masters were very angry when Paul cured the girl of possession, because they could no longer gain from it. This led to Paul's imprisonment.

 

Since this thread is concerned with the origins of possible "voices";)----

 

Given the words the girl is quoted as having spoken: "17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." (Acts 16:17) , I would have to doubt strongly that she was acting as an oracle of Apollo, since they are not in keeping with any of the other pronouncements known from the oracles at Delphi (the Pythian oracle) or elsewhere, as far as I know.

 

As a general aside to those who may not know about it, it's also useful to understand the difference between the common English understanding of the word "demon" as "evil spirit" and the Greek understanding of the term "daimon" which could be either good or evil:

http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/D/Daemones.html

 

you can see some of the variety here

http://www.theoi.com/Encyc_D.html

[Pamela H in Texas]

So you follow the Christian Scriptures but are not Trinitarian? Or am I mistaken and you are Jewish or Muslim? Trying to get a feel for the worldview. If Christian, is there a particular denomination(s) who also hold to this? No offense, just curious. I'm always trying to learn more, as I find comparative religion fascinating.

 

A couple things :)

 

First, I wasn't really talking trinity or not, though now I can see where you got that idea. I was stuck with what was happening in Bible times, not the discussions in the 4th century and since. In Biblical times, there were discussions about not having other gods (Jesus, riches, etc).

 

As for us, we're Christian, non-trinitarian. Your other question is tougher. According to various surveys and studies, a good percentage of individual Christians don't believe in the trinity and/or are unsure about it. Doctrinally, most mainstream Christian churches have the trinity as a central doctrine though. We're Jehovah's Witnesses and the entire religion holds Jesus as the only-begotten Son of God.

[Lovedtodeath]

Since this thread is concerned with the origins of possible "voices";)----

 

Given the words the girl is quoted as having spoken: "17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." (Acts 16:17) , I would have to doubt strongly that she was acting as an oracle of Apollo, since they are not in keeping with any of the other pronouncements known from the oracles at Delphi (the Pythian oracle) or elsewhere, as far as I know.

 

As a general aside to those who may not know about it, it's also useful to understand the difference between the common English understanding of the word "demon" as "evil spirit" and the Greek understanding of the term "daimon" which could be either good or evil:

http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/D/Daemones.html

 

you can see some of the variety here

http://www.theoi.com/Encyc_D.html

 

I have often wondered about that. Thanks for sharing.

 

Meshing what you have shared with my own beliefs, I would say that the girl was possessed by a demon who was impersonating the god. The Bible states that Satan and his fallen angels would deceive people, set themselves up as angels of light, perform powerful works and give inspired utterances.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[KarenNC]

A couple things :)

 

First, I wasn't really talking trinity or not, though now I can see where you got that idea. I was stuck with what was happening in Bible times, not the discussions in the 4th century and since. In Biblical times, there were discussions about not having other gods (Jesus, riches, etc).

 

As for us, we're Christian, non-trinitarian. Your other question is tougher. According to various surveys and studies, a good percentage of individual Christians don't believe in the trinity and/or are unsure about it. Doctrinally, most mainstream Christian churches have the trinity as a central doctrine though. We're Jehovah's Witnesses and the entire religion holds Jesus as the only-begotten Son of God.

 

Ah, thanks, yes, that does help clarify. I am not nearly as familiar with the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses as I am with some others. Guess I need to add that (along with some others like Seventh Day Adventist, LDS, etc) to the list to read more about, so I can participate in discussions in a more informed way :).

 

For anyone interested in reading more from the time period of the early Christian Church, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ is a great resource.

[Lovedtodeath]

So you follow the Christian Scriptures but are not Trinitarian? Or am I mistaken and you are Jewish or Muslim? Trying to get a feel for the worldview. If Christian, is there a particular denomination(s) who also hold to this? No offense, just curious. I'm always trying to learn more, as I find comparative religion fascinating.:)

 

Nontrinitarian There is a lot of information here including modern Non-trinitarian religions.