What is wrong with the way we teach languages?

[Haiku]

I have spent quite a bit of time recently looking for a Spanish program for my seven year old, who wants to start Spanish this summer.

 

I have read countless reviews of programs, and the one thing that strikes me is how many reviewers say something along the lines of, "I took Spanish all through high school" or, "I took Spanish all through college" or even, "I took Spanish all through high school AND college," and then go on to say, "but I am not fluent." (And yes, I realize that true fluency and facility in a language are different things, but I get the impression that these people are saying they simply can't speak the language with any comfort.)

 

It makes me wonder what the schools are doing wrong that someone would take four or eight years of a language and still not be able to speak it. My overseas friends study languages for a few years in school and come away with a pretty decent knowledge of the language. I took German in high school and college. I can not speak it, although I read it ok. Is the problem that we focus too much on reading and writing and not enough on speaking? Is the problem that people don't have enough opportunity to use what they are learning? How can this be remediated in a homeschool environment? I don't want my child to spend years studying a language without the tangible result of being able to speak the language.

 

My dd took a few homeschool Spanish classes when she was four and five. They were "cute," but the actual benefit was miminal. She memorized the names of colors and can count to 30, but that's about it. I am wondering whether I should put her back in that class for the benefit of having weekly access to a Spanish speaker, but the class is $12 per half hour, which really is more than I can afford these days.

 

I just want to avoid whatever problem it is that produces long-time students of a language who end up unable to actually use that language.

 

Perhaps that solution is a study-abroad year? Can homeschoolers do that through any of the exchange programs?

 

Tara

[Hillary in KS]

I wonder if the problem isn't necessarily the *way* we teach it.

 

The prevailing attitude in schools seems to be not to learn anything, but to just pass and get through it. I did learn enough Spanish to hold a simple conversation, and I only had 1 year of high school and one year of college Spanish. But I wanted to learn it.

 

Other countries have competency exams they must pass every so often. We do not. Not that I'm advocating them, but I've heard friends from other countries talk about studying long and hard for them. When I lived in Costa Rica, I remember my family members studying for year-end exams, and learning they'd have to repeat a subject the following year.

 

How much chemistry, algebra, world history, etc. do we remember from high school? Enough to say we have any sort of expertise in that subject?

[Laura Corin]

I started French when I was eleven and took it continuously until I was eighteen, then went off to university to study it for another four years. I was pretty fluent at eighteen and very fluent at twenty-two (after a year abroad). Things I notice about the way language teaching often fails:

 

- taking 'two years of [a foreign language]', rather than thinking of it as an infinite process. I don't think you are going to retain much of a language if you don't get to a stage where you can, at least, read a magazine and have a cogent conversation (beyond 'A cup of coffee please').

 

- starting late: it's better to begin before the teenage embarrassment intervenes.

 

- failing to do a complete mix of vocabulary, grammar, speaking, listening and writing. Each aspects enriches the others and cements the language in the learner's brain.

 

- lack of natural speaking opportunities. I did a French exchange when I was thirteen (one month in France, staying with a family) which did an enormous amount for my fluency. We also had small-group conversation lessons at school with a native French speaker.

 

- lack of aims and goals: we had public language exams at age 16 (roughtly SAT subject test level) and 18 (roughly AP level). They did help to focus our efforts, as passing them was necessary for university entrance.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I started English on the young side, grade 3. I failed English consistently (and I was an outstanding student otherwise!) all the way to grade 9 where my parents shipped me to London UK.

On the other hand, I started Spanish in grade 7. By grade 9, I could hold a decent conversation. By grade 11, I was dreaming in Spanish, and was much more at ease with Spanish than with English. I never had an opportunity for Spanish immersion before the summer between grade 10 and 11, when I spent 4 weeks in London with a Spanish speaker as my roommate. English immersion on the other hand was constantly available to me, yet didn't help me one iota!

 

Those two languages were taught in the same school, btw. The main difference I can remember is that, for English, we were first taught a list of words. And for Spanish we had to learn canned conversations by heart. We had stories in comic book format, and we needed to be able to say out loud whatever conversation was being 'said' in any of the squares of the weekly comic strip.

 

So I started Spanish later than English, but got further quicker.

[klmama]

I started English on the young side, grade 3. I failed English consistently (and I was an outstanding student otherwise!) all the way to grade 9 where my parents shipped me to London UK.

On the other hand, I started Spanish in grade 7. By grade 9, I could hold a decent conversation. By grade 11, I was dreaming in Spanish, and was much more at ease with Spanish than with English. I never had an opportunity for Spanish immersion before the summer between grade 10 and 11, when I spent 4 weeks in London with a Spanish speaker as my roommate. English immersion on the other hand was constantly available to me, yet didn't help me one iota!

 

Those two languages were taught in the same school, btw. The main difference I can remember is that, for English, we were first taught a list of words. And for Spanish we had to learn canned conversations by heart. We had stories in comic book format, and we needed to be able to say out loud whatever conversation was being 'said' in any of the squares of the weekly comic strip.

 

So I started Spanish later than English, but got further quicker.

 

Don't you think, though, that the similarities between Spanish and French made learning the Spanish easier for you? I have never studied French, but because I know Spanish, I can understand a certain amount of both written and spoken French.

[Guest]

I remember by Spanish classes being the goof-off class of the day. It was always in the afternoon and we watched more movies with subtitles than anything else. Your guys' eyelashes would curl if I told you some of the stories about those days!

 

That being said, I was heavily involved in missionary trips to Mexico all throughout my high school years and I had a heart to learn and study my Spanish text. I excelled in Spanish and was able to communicate with people when I went to Mexico and corresponded with people via snail mail, also. Nothing helped me more than actually immersing myself in the language, though. (I'm also a kinesthetic learner, though - learn by doing)

 

I don't know if I'd necessarily single out Spanish, but I'd lump it with the rest of the public school system and experience. My Spanish class was no different than my history or math. If you wanted to learn, you studied the text. If you wanted to just skate by, it wasn't hard. Sad, but true.

[elegantlion]

I'm one of those that took four years in high school. My Spanish teacher was Hispanic and a native speaker. Yet I was not fluent at the end of four years.

 

I think part of the issue for us was having an opportunity to use it outside the classroom. After a certain level you could only speak Spanish in class, so we had classroom time.

 

I also don't remember reading real books in Spanish, it was all textbook based, some video.

 

End result: 20 years later I made it through 10 days in Costa Rica when the only English speaking people were at the hotel. I'm quite sure I sounded like a tourist speaking really slowly.

 

It has made learning/teaching Latin easier and I speak my Latin with a Spanish accent. :D

 

I am exposing my son to languages now trying to see where his true interests lie. We are doing Spanish over the summer and I hope to use it around the house between us.

 

Great question.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Don't you think, though, that the similarities between Spanish and French made learning the Spanish easier for you?

 

I never felt it helped. There were enough differences to throw us off constantly. Of course, I could somehow get myself understood even with French mistakes, but that was not the aim at all. Some vocabulary was probably easier, but that's about it.

 

However, the expectation was there that we would be fluent in Spanish, not just the touristy type of Spanish. In our third year, we started reading novels. Our fifth year's instruction was strictly in Spanish, (in Spanish class, that is) there was no French, no English allowed at all.

 

If I contrast that with the expectation for English, it just wasn't the same. English started with list of words, and no need to speak the language at all in class.

Edited February 17, 2009 by CleoQc

[Jackie in NE]

I started French when I was eleven and took it continuously until I was eighteen, then went off to university to study it for another four years. I was pretty fluent at eighteen and very fluent at twenty-two (after a year abroad). Things I notice about the way language teaching often fails:

 

- taking 'two years of [a foreign language]', rather than thinking of it as an infinite process. I don't think you are going to retain much of a language if you don't get to a stage where you can, at least, read a magazine and have a cogent conversation (beyond 'A cup of coffee please').

 

- starting late: it's better to begin before the teenage embarrassment intervenes.

 

- failing to do a complete mix of vocabulary, grammar, speaking, listening and writing. Each aspects enriches the others and cements the language in the learner's brain.

 

- lack of natural speaking opportunities. I did a French exchange when I was thirteen (one month in France, staying with a family) which did an enormous amount for my fluency. We also had small-group conversation lessons at school with a native French speaker.

 

- lack of aims and goals: we had public language exams at age 16 (roughtly SAT subject test level) and 18 (roughly AP level). They did help to focus our efforts, as passing them was necessary for university entrance.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

 

I will say from my own experience that there's nothing like being around the language all the time. My 2 older brothers spoke French before they spoke English. My parents always spoke French to each other as my father was a French-Basque immigrant, and my mother was daughter to 2 French immigrants. But by the time I came around (10 years later), English was the primary language in our home. My older siblings didn't want to speak French because the other kids made fun of them.... (Isn't that a shame?) But my parents still spoke quite a bit of French to each other, and there were many times when their friends would come over, and all that was spoken was French (or sometimes Basque, which is IMPOSSIBLE to learn :001_smile:) I took 4 years of French in High School, and all I learned was how to read and write it. And my mom was my teacher :tongue_smilie:. I guess my time in High School reinforced my speaking a little bit.... but not much. But it ALL came together when I spent a couple of months in France with my Dad. I was completely fluent, and was dreaming in French. Ahhhhh, wonderful.

 

That was almost 30 years ago. I can still speak French if forced to, and I am teaching my dc the language right now, so that they'll have the basics..... But I plan to take them to France and spend some time there. Hopefully it will work for them the way it did for me.

 

The frustrating part will be that a LOT of the slang has changed.

 

I think the problem with the way we teach Foreign Language in our schools is that there is never really the expectation that the language will be used. 99% of the students in my mom's High School classes never expected to use their French. They were simply fulfilling the necessary requirement for college-bound students. In Europe, alternatively, they study the language with the expectation that it will be used. It is so much easier over there to get the practice. I mean you can take a long week-end and immerse yourself in a foreign language!

 

So, because of my own experience, I think that you need exposure early, and regularly. Then, you need immersion.

 

My .02

 

jackie

[Sara R]

I had an old-fashioned German teacher. We had to memorize dialogues that helped us practice complicated grammatical structures. We really overlearned them. But we didn't get much of a chance for independent oral language practice.

 

After 4 years of high school language, I was able to test into upper division college German classes, which was very uncommon.

 

I also lived in a German foreign language residence, where we were supposed to speak German all the time, my freshman year. The first few days I was very scared to speak German. And then something just shifted, and I could. And because of all of those years of drills, what came out of my mouth was mostly grammatically correct.

 

So I think it's a combination of grammar and vocab, drills until putting words into correct sample sentences is easy, and an immersion opportunity.

[Haiku]

I know my kids are young to worry about it, but where would I look for immersion program opportunities? Something like a summer or semester abroad, or a service/language program, etc.

 

Tara

[Harriet Vane]

I firmly believe it is a lack of significant speaking and writing.

 

I took French for six years, and most of my instruction consisted of grammar exercises. I remember reading one play in French or the occasional paragraph here or there. I saw two French movies over the course of the entire six years. Conversation was pretty limited as well.

 

The only way to really be fluent in anything--whether a language or a sport or whatever--is to get LOTS of practice in a "game" situation. When training for a sport we do drills in order to practice specific skills, but in a game we make a million split section decisions as to what skills to use, when, and in a game we get a lot of think-fast practice.

 

It's the same with language. We must read and speak and hear it A LOT, outside of the context of grammar drills.

 

As for Spanish classes--I don't bother with group classes for kids, because I often find they are vocabulary-memorizing fluff. I was lucky to have a great, reasonably-priced tutor for a number of years. We now work with SpanishLuna.

 

Whatever you choose for your kids to memorize vocabulary and learn grammar, make sure you also supplement that program with conversation and with reading in that language. We do this on a loose basis--in addition to class my kids chatter in Spanish with their father here and there, and a couple times a month we get a Spanish children's book from the library for dd to read and discuss with her father. It really helps. You will find that supplementing conversation, TV or radio shows, and reading makes the learning of a language progress much, much faster.

[Colleen in NS]

It makes me wonder what the schools are doing wrong that someone would take four or eight years of a language and still not be able to speak it. My overseas friends study languages for a few years in school and come away with a pretty decent knowledge of the language. I took German in high school and college. I can not speak it, although I read it ok. Is the problem that we focus too much on reading and writing and not enough on speaking? Is the problem that people don't have enough opportunity to use what they are learning? How can this be remediated in a homeschool environment? I don't want my child to spend years studying a language without the tangible result of being able to speak the language.

 

For me, it was the lack of grammar training and memory work of vocab and grammar forms (we did memorize useful phrases, I think).

 

I studied French for 3 years in high school and can't remember any of it. I don't even remember how we studied. All I remember from the first year is taking dictation from the teacher, which helped with spelling. Second year, I can remember where I sat in class, and third year, I can remember being frustrated all year because the teacher was a goofball who sat and talked with us (in English, mostly) about anything France related, but not French language learning related. I failed that third year because of pop quizzes that came up from nowhere - no preparation that I remember. I quit and was so disappointed because I had really wanted to learn French.

 

Then I took a year of Spanish to fill in my schedule and ended up going to Mexico for a month after that school year was over. It was fun to practice phrases in Mexico and listen to others speak and try to pick out words, but I never felt confident with speaking the language, immersed though I was. I also lived among Spanish speaking friends for a few years later on, and that was fun, too, but I still didn't feel confident trying to speak with them in Spanish. I know now (after doing English grammar, PL, LC1, and LC2 with ds) that it was because I didn't know how the language worked (grammar).

 

So now that I've been at this Latin and English grammar thing for a few years, I've decided that Spanish (or any other language my kids do while at home) will be done with a starting base in grammar and vocab memory, and exercises. Any programs I look for will have those in them, and I will tweak them to be like the Latin programs we've used, as best as I can, with vocab and grammar form drills, and dictating useful phrases to write down. (I'm starting to do this stuff right now with SYRWTLS) Then I'll supplement with simple books to read, somehow do some kind of writing, listen to library CDs for travel or whatever subjects I can find, and practicing conversation with native speakers. I see immersion after all this as the ultimate, but want to give my kids the technical base, first.

 

I've read some of LoriM's and Jean in Wisc's posts on the high school boards over the years about Spanish, and that's what convinced me to go more the grammar/vocab route rather than the strictly conversational route.

 

I'm thinking that different people learn differently, too. I always want to know how something works, so it has to be grammar for me. Others might be able to learn the patterns by intuition from listening and speaking - I just cannot do that, and I know that about myself now. It was a relief to realize that I wasn't a foreign language failure, just that I learned differently from all the immersion talk I was hearing and reading about.

[cmarango]

I believe that I have read somewhere that people need to be exposed to their target language for about 2 hours/day to become fluent. Sitting in a high school spanish class probably does not meet this criteria.

[Karen sn]

Well - for one, some teachers can not teach it logically.

If in Spanish you say, "La libre de Karen" then when you translate it to English you say, "Karen's book" instead of the LITERAL translation "The book of Karen" you have confused the student.

 

I took Spanish and had a wonderful teacher who taught the literal translation - makes it alot easier to understand what's really going on.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

I have read countless reviews of programs, and the one thing that strikes me is how many reviewers say something along the lines of, "I took Spanish all through high school" or, "I took Spanish all through college" or even, "I took Spanish all through high school AND college," and then go on to say, "but I am not fluent." (And yes, I realize that true fluency and facility in a language are different things, but I get the impression that these people are saying they simply can't speak the language with any comfort.)

 

Well, I'm one of those who has said that in recent threads. I took Spanish in high school and college and I'm now looking for a curriculum for my littles. Basically, I'm looking for guidance in what to teach when. I have fairly good comprehension when listening to people speak Spanish and decent pronunciation. Confidence in speaking to native speakers is what I lack, due in large part to lack of practice.

 

I wouldn't call myself fluent because it has been years and years since I studied the language and have rarely put the skill to use since then. I would say that the most important thing for creating fluency is to use the language in a real, everyday way and I haven't had the opportunity to do that the way I did back when I took the classes (@ 18 years ago in El Paso, TX--TONS of opportunities for everyday use). Practice makes perfect definitely applies.

 

On the very bright side, I feel fairly confident about teaching the kids (once I narrow down the curriculum choices), probably because I'm not self-consious when speaking to them. When they begin with their baby steps in Spanish, I intend to speak it to/with them regularly. Hopefully they will grow into more confident speakers than I have been these past years. Also, we live in Texas so they'll get lots of opportunities. One of their neighborhood friends and our next door neighbors are fluent/native speakers so I'm already happy about that.

 

Anyway, that's the #1 thing I think is lacking in the way we teach languages but I don't know that it's the fault of those teaching foreign languages. Someone just has to be dedicated enough to learning a language to find opportunities to practice, practice, practice.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

I know my kids are young to worry about it, but where would I look for immersion program opportunities? Something like a summer or semester abroad, or a service/language program, etc.

 

Tara

 

Well, if you could find a local Spanish class (our gymnastics place actually offers one--found that out last night), you could maybe buddy up with another family that wants their kids to become fluent and have Spanish-speaking playdates.

 

My goal is to (re)learn along with the children and speak it to them in everyday situations as much as possible. It's a commitment but I firmly believe that this (and exposure to other Spanish speaking people when we go about our lives) will be the best way for them to gain confidence and fluency. Speaking Spanish can't just be a short class every day (or heaven forbid every week!). It's going to have to be a real part of our lives or it will never be a real part of our lives, you know?

[Rhondabee]

I agree. It's just that immersion is a pipe-dream around here - as it is for probably most Americans.

 

And, it's just another case of "use it or lose it". Funny that I somehow exempted Calculus in college, and now I can't remember for the life of me what a differential is. Yet, no one would ever lament the fact that (s)he is no longer "fluent" in Calculus.

[Year Round Mom]

After reading these posts, I think that we usually don't get beyond the grammar stage in learning foreign languages. We learn the vocabulary, the pronunciation, basic grammar rules, and that's about it.

 

One poster mentioned that it helped when her teacher taught the why's behind the syntax, which would be the logic stage, if I understand the stages correctly (which I might not!). We get into the logic stage a little bit in high school, if the teacher's good.

 

And we definitely don't get to the rhetoric stage - being able to read a passage critically or hear a newscast or whatever in the target language and then have a meaningful discussion about it, for example.

 

Random question: Has anyone heard of the Learnables? Is that any good?

[Rosie_0801]

Funny. I don't know anyone over here (Aus) who has actually learned a foreign language from "studying" it at school. Auslan, yes, but that's different. I always put it down to our not learning English grammar because one can hardly learn someone else's grammar efficiently if they don't know their own. However, you guys all learn grammar so I guess it's not only that. I was correcting reports for one of dh's workmates last year and perhaps the problem lies in the wording of those reports: "This semester we covered the following topics..." Covering doesn't necessarily mean learning. Sitting in a class doesn't mean you will absorb anything. I took a beginners Polish class twice before giving up because it wasn't being taught the way I needed to learn. I need to know word order, pronouns and a couple of other nouns and verbs. The case endings and whatnot can come later because who am I going to be talking to anyway, with a dozen words in a language? I think the first step is to be able to construct a sentence, however badly. There was too much emphasis on correct grammar which prevented me from saying or understanding anything. Yay for Auslan, the grammar is so much easier than a spoken language :) My Auslan diploma does actually mean something. I CAN sign!!

 

:)

Rosie

[razorbackmama]

This is a very interesting thread!

 

I had 2 years of French in high school, taught by a native speaker. I did learn a lot, but it wasn't until I went to a French immersion camp at a local college that it finally started to click and have French be "automatic" for me. That wasn't so great when I left and went out to eat, however. The guy asked me a question, and I answered with "je ne sais pas.":tongue_smilie:

[Colleen in NS]

After reading these posts, I think that we usually don't get beyond the grammar stage in learning foreign languages. We learn the vocabulary, the pronunciation, basic grammar rules, and that's about it.

 

One poster mentioned that it helped when her teacher taught the why's behind the syntax, which would be the logic stage, if I understand the stages correctly (which I might not!). We get into the logic stage a little bit in high school, if the teacher's good.

 

And we definitely don't get to the rhetoric stage - being able to read a passage critically or hear a newscast or whatever in the target language and then have a meaningful discussion about it, for example.

 

Random question: Has anyone heard of the Learnables? Is that any good?

 

Oooooo, I liked reading your thoughts!

 

I have the Learnables for Spanish 1, and I don't like it. We tried, but it boiled down to the fact that it doesn't teach grammar and vocab the way I need to learn it (and I'm the one who needs to learn it if I'm going to teach my kids at this point). You listen to a CD and look at pictures for the first while, then apparently there is a grammar part where grammar is learned intuitively (?) by listening and looking at pictures and seeing sentences written in a book - and that just doesn't work for me. I need it explained to me. I need someone to tell me how sentences are put together, with parts of speech, etc.. Also, it would probably have been fun to use Learnables when ds was younger (in grammar stage), but he got frustrated with it, too, now that he is in logic stage and questioning everything.

[danielle]

Did you take Calculus? I did, passed it with a B, don't remember a single thing about it (but will by next year, since dd will be studying it and I'll be highly motivated). I took Mountain Dulcimer lessons two years ago, but haven't touched it since. Don't remember that either. My point is, if you don't use those skills frequently, you forget. Even non-native speakers who are now functioning exclusively in another language begin to forget their first language.

 

Europeans aren't monolithic in their abilities, either--the Dutch may be the most proficient linguists; they laugh at how terrible the French accent is when the French speak any other language. When I was in Spain, it was extraordinarily difficult to find anyone who spoke anything but Spanish. Usually, if an educated person in just about any country doesn't already speak some English, they'll speak some French (a great reason to study French that's often overlooked by Americans--it's the other international language. Spanish isn't). Not so when I was in Spain.

 

However, I recently travelled in Turkey and Egypt, and you could choose from a smorgasbord of English and any other language.(and many people were entirely self taught!) If people need another language to survive and prosper, believe me they will be highly motivated to learn it.

 

I really think it has little to do with "how we're taught" (I mean, there's only so many ways to go at it), but everything to do with exposure (Europeans can easily turn on several languages on any tv--whereas the Japanese have little opportunity for exposure and are no linguists); economic motivation (your job, maybe your life depends on it--you'll learn!); and continuing practice.

 

If you graduate from any high school or college program, then continue to read a magazine or a book a week, listen to the news in your learned language, watch movies (even with the subtitles on), I can practically guarantee that not only won't you forget, you'll improve. Just like if I used calculus in my job, or every day for the past 20 years since I took it, I'd still know it and would probably have improved my facility. I mean, try going ice skating if you haven't been on skates in 10 years!

 

I don't think we should beat ourselves up too much. It's important to remember that studying a language is not something you learn in a year in an academic setting--even children who are totally immersed in their first language are generally incompetent speakers for 4 or 5 years. Language knowledge is not terribly hard to revive. Get a magazine in something that interests you, or start listening to the news at Euronews, and you'll be amazed at the results in even a few weeks.

Danielle

[Rhondabee]

Yes! This is what I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it so well!

 

I simply have other priorities now than remembering Calculus (or Trig for that matter). Knowing how to cover all the needs of a family of 5 on a tight budget might not be particularly glamorous, or highly sought after information in Classical Ed circles; nevertheless, *that's* what I've been learning & excelling at the last few years.

 

(Well, that and learning how to correctly punctuate complex-compound sentences with conjunctive adverbs - LOL!)

[Laura Corin]

If you graduate from any high school or college program, then continue to read a magazine or a book a week, listen to the news in your learned language, watch movies (even with the subtitles on), I can practically guarantee that not only won't you forget, you'll improve. Just like if I used calculus in my job, or every day for the past 20 years since I took it, I'd still know it and would probably have improved my facility. I mean, try going ice skating if you haven't been on skates in 10 years!

 

 

I was a pretty fluent speaker at 22, but have barely spoken French for the last 23 three years. I started teaching my boys French in January, and it's coming back very fast, because I had reached a level of competence to which I could return.

 

I had the same thing happen with Mandarin: I was pretty fluent when I left Taiwan in 1992; when I next used Mandarin, in 2004, it only took a day or two to regain.

 

So, I think that continuous practice is important up to a level of real competence, at which point the language is pretty fixed in your head, and only requires brushing up. There's a story on my old blog that backs this up: after forty years, you can still use a language, if you were fluent enough in the first place.

 

Laura

[naturalmom]

I don't think there is one simple answer - I totally agree with what everyone here has said. Not enough opportunity to speak here, so no motivation...starting too late...who really remembers anything from school... and lots of others.

 

So here's my addition. First, although it takes 4-5 years for us to learn our first native tongue, if you every go to an immersion school, you'll discover they can learn the language at a functional level the first year, and after 2-3 years they sound like native children. But they still need to continue their learning - would we say a 2nd or 3rd grade child in America doesn't need any more English? That all their grammar is correct? That they don't need to expand their vocabulary? But they can do all that's needed at that level.

 

I think there is a greater consequence to starting late than simply finding it more unwieldy, and being unable to sound native. When you teach at that age, you have a group of students who are accustomed to high school level conversations, books, and topics. Their language skills in English were built up from the bottom - laying a foundation before school of basic speaking and understanding, and during school, as I mentioned above, they progress in complexity of language, but also depth of what they do with that language. But they seem to want to immediately interact in the foreign language, at the same level they do in their native language. This is nearly impossible.

 

So high school courses have very long lists of vocabulary to memorize, complicated grammar to memorize and articicially use...Who can have a conversation while trying to remember grammar rules? ("Let me see...I just used that preposition, so which case should my noun be - and was it masculine, faminine or neuter to begin with?" By this time the conversation has stopped!)

 

I think it is better to start very young, when it is possible to provide genuine experiences with the language that are within the reach of the new learner. I am a big advocate of children's books in the language one is trying to learn. They tend to have pictures which assist understanding; they are written in simpler but not artificial language; and part of their purpose is to improve language skills - isn't that one reason books are recommended in our own language?

 

I have to run now, but I love this conversation! I have more to say. We are using a German curriculum that is made by Germans, and there are definite differences in methodology. Of course it's incredibly logical - but if I have time to come back soon, I'll put in some of those differences that I have found.

[jonesloonybin]

I have to run now, but I love this conversation! I have more to say. We are using a German curriculum that is made by Germans, and there are definite differences in methodology. Of course it's incredibly logical - but if I have time to come back soon, I'll put in some of those differences that I have found.

 

Please share what you are using. We are looking for a good german program.

 

Thanks

[Colleen in NS]

Knowing how to cover all the needs of a family of 5 on a tight budget might not be particularly glamorous...what I've been learning & excelling at the last few years.

 

(Well, that and learning how to correctly punctuate complex-compound sentences with conjunctive adverbs - LOL!)

 

I'm right there with you. But doncha think it's fun to work through these complexities every so often (such as why I didn't learn French even though I had 3 years or why calculus doesn't figure into your every day life)?:D Thinking about these things keeps me from getting bored with things such as comparing the price of turkey to the price of ground beef, and trying to figure out some new exciting dish to make with beans YET AGAIN. :lol: I keep stuffing my brain with new projects (figuring out how to teach writing, getting excited about learning English grammar, figuring out how to learn a language, figuring out how to extract the main ideas and subtopics from a passage of history or science, comparing the grammar of 3 different languages, realizing from the recent R&S lesson that maybe writing about lit. in logic stage isn't so hard to teach after all...)

 

signed, going stir crazy in the wintry north!:lol:

[Rhondabee]

Well, in the past 24 hours alone I've gone from just *knowing* we needed to send ds to public school next year (I mean, they have a *TV studio* on campus!!! how to compete?) - to just *knowing* we should homeschool and being elated at the possibilities of my dc knowing all about the progym and ancient Greeks and philosophy - to crying in despair after reading his attempt at his first real "research" paper, and reluctantly conceding that anyone else would just stick the kid in school and let him fail - to being somewhat cheered by my husband and realizing that though is much still to work on, that we have come *so* *far* in such a short time and *knowing* that we WILL homeschool, and somehow it will all work out, even if I don't have it all figured out ahead of time.

 

It is definitely a journey - not only for our kids, but for us, isn't it? By all means, I enjoy it. I'm so over beating myself up because I *have* to learn things alongside my kids and because I can't be all things or remember all things.

 

Oh! - now to go tackle that research paper...

[Colleen in NS]

I'm so over beating myself up because I *have* to learn things alongside my kids and because I can't be all things or remember all things.

 

Yup. I went to bed really late last night with about a trillion things on my mind (progym, language learning, comparing grammar, how sequentially taught art skills could *so* add to our thinking skills....you get the idea). I yet again told my husband that I don't think I am doing this adequately enough. When he didn't reply (trying to fall asleep), I jabbed him and said, "What do you think???" "You're doing a good job, Colleen." he murmured. Thanks, hon, that's all I needed, was a cheerleading session.:D I just tell him what to say, what answers to give to what questions, and he says it. Then I feel better.:lol:

 

Oops, sorry, now back to foreign language learning...

Edited February 18, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[naturalmom]

We use the Neue Deutschmobil series, published by Klett.

[cathmom]

Razorbackmama told me to check out this thread because I had missed it. There have been some points I totally agree with. Once you reach a certain level of competence, as Laura Corin said, it's in there. I have an MA in German and also studied Spanish. I really did nothing with German for ten years, and yet when I started studying again, my tutor and I informally assessed my level at the ACTFL level of Advanced Low. My biggest problem was remembering vocabulary and increasing my vocabulary.

 

It's a really good point to think about how long it takes children to become fluent in their native language. My five year old is still not completely understandable because of some speech issues, and he can't read or write yet. And yet he's been immersed in English for nearly 6 years (counting the time in utero when he could hear)! It really takes a solid ten years at least to learn all four skills in your native language, with complete and total immersion. So it's really expecting a lot that 3 years of high school French is going to make you fluent.

 

With that said, language teaching could definitely be improved. When I taught Spanish last year, I tried to use lots of games, songs, and real objects and experiences to teach them.

 

For an immersion experience in the US, check out http://www.concordialanguagevillages.org/newsite/

 

I have not been, but plan for my children to go there for at least one high school credit. Scholarships are available.

 

Another book I really like, that I would have used this year if I had taught again, was "Spanish for the Utterly Confused." I really liked the way it explained grammar at the beginning of the book using English. In fact, that part would be worth reading even if you aren't studying Spanish.

[Haiku]

It's too bad my dd doesn't want to learn German. One of my best friends is a high school German teacher.

 

Tara

[Colleen in NS]

It really takes a solid ten years at least to learn all four skills in your native language, with complete and total immersion. So it's really expecting a lot that 3 years of high school French is going to make you fluent.

 

But that ten years is the first ten years of a child's life. Wouldn't it be different (shorter) for a teen or an adult? I don't have experience with this, but I'm thinking that maybe for an adult who is motivated, it would take less time. I'm thinking that an adult will have had the experience of learning a native language for the first ten years, and will know how to learn reading/writing/speaking/listening skills in another language, making the learning process more efficient for the foreign language. What do you think?

Edited February 20, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[cathmom]

Yes, Colleen, definitely. An older student or adult can learn faster. I started German at 19 in college. Several years later I was mistaken for German by a German teacher in Germany! I thought she was nuts!

[cathmom]

Children's books are also a great help. I used them in my classes with adults and in high school. And reading children's chapter books is a great intermediate step between learning the language and reading its lit.

[Colleen in NS]

Yes, Colleen, definitely. An older student or adult can learn faster. I started German at 19 in college. Several years later I was mistaken for German by a German teacher in Germany! I thought she was nuts!

 

I just realized that maybe you meant it would take more than 3 years for a high schooler, but less than ten. :)

 

and that's cool about your experience!

 

Do you like grammar talk? Have you seen the "grammar meshing" thread on the bilingual board? It's really neat!

[cathmom]

I just realized that maybe you meant it would take more than 3 years for a high schooler, but less than ten. :)

 

 

Do you like grammar talk? Have you seen the "grammar meshing" thread on the bilingual board? It's really neat!

 

 

Well, if the high school student were completely immersed in the foreign language for 3 years, they would probably make really good progress. But with maybe 30-40 minutes per day of language class, 180 days a year, and no practice outside of class, they are not going to get too far. But if we adopted something like the European common frame of reference, that would be a way to measure progress in a more meaningful way.

http://www.euregioenglish.be/levels.html

 

I saw the thread but haven't read it yet!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

[quote name=caBut if we adopted something like the European common frame of reference, that would be a way to measure progress in a more meaningful way.

http://www.euregioenglish.be/levels.html

 

 

My son is currently taking a Spanish class that aims at the A1 level at the end of the year. So I know what he's covering at the A1 level.

 

Breakthrough (A1)

Very basic concrete communication. Survival vocabulary & very limited knowledge of grammar.

Capable of very short 1 or 2 word answers about personal & familiar topics.

 

And that's NOT what he's covering at all! He's already writing paragraphs in Spanish, with limited vocabulary. More than 1 or 2 word answers!

As for the very limited grammar, he's covered present, imperfect, and future of all three groups, and that's halfway through the year.

 

So yes, it's very basic communication, but the rest of the description seems to imply a lot less of what it really is.

 

As a rule of thumb, A1 is probably what most American high schoolers are able to achieve after three or four years of foreign language studies. That's based on my personal encounters over many years, but is not a scientific study by far! And yes, I've met Americans who've achieved way more than A1 but those tend to surprise me when I meet them! LOL

 

I just wanted to make clear that the wording on that Common European Frame of Reference is misleading. North Americans and Europeans don't have the same definition of "survival vocabulary". It goes way beyond ordering a cold beer :lol:

[Colleen in NS]

But with maybe 30-40 minutes per day of language class, 180 days a year, and no practice outside of class, they are not going to get too far.

 

Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking about that part of it.

[Nan in Mass]

I read one book a YEAR after college, starting with TinTins, looking up every word I didn't know (which I only had to do for the first little bit of the book - vocabulary repeats), and I improved a ton. I am seive-brained, too. It is frustrating that this isn't common knowledge.

[Nan in Mass]

Yup - warding off boredom here, too, by learning new things.

[Colleen in NS]

Yup - warding off boredom here, too, by learning new things.

 

I'm getting this thread mixed up with the "meshing grammar" one now, LOL!

 

So, I spent an hour this afternoon sorting out Latin 3rd declension. This is something I never learned to do in 3 years of French classes, to organize vocabulary and grammar like this. I slowly picked my way back through the LC2 lessons on 3rd declension, and sorted the cards into separate piles - masc., fem., common, and neuter. And I'm making rule cards for each of them, so I can remember generally what endings and rules are associated with each gender. And to have some kind of hope that we will eventually remember what genders the other non-rule/traditional role-classifiable words are in. And I'm making endings cards for each gender pile, along with cards with sample nouns declined with those endings. Then I can pick up the 3rd dec. m. pile and say, "Ds, what are the endings? What are the i-stem endings? Now recite the sample nouns with these endings. Now let's decline another of the m. nouns. Now let's decline another m. noun that is an i-stem. Now let's go through the 3rd decl. m. vocab, Latin to English, English to Latin." And it hopefully won't be so confusing. Even within the genders, I sorted further - like in masc.: traditional role, generally m. endings, then the random endings grouped by similar endings, just so at least *I* can have an easier time memorizing which genders (ds has an easier time with memory work). And so putting adjectives with them will come easier. Phew! I don't blame you if you can't follow this paragraph!:D I have no one IRL to talk about this with! :lol:

 

I hate doing this and I love doing this.