Nicole M Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My son is watching Andrew Pudewa's SAT essay course, and he suggests The Fallacy Detective. Looking at the Amazon description, this does not seem like something that would appeal to us. We worked through some of the critical thinking press books (names escape me right now) in middle school and also did a year of Memoria Press logic a few years back. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Nicole, to my mind Fallacy Detective is a vile work of polemics and propaganda masquerading as a "critical thinking/logic" book. Like the equally despicable Introductory Logic By Douglas Wilson and James Nance, the Blundorn's have agendas they want to push that have nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with the right-wing political/theological views they want to push on children. Anyone who recommended such a work would instantly lose any and all credibility with me. That is for sure. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 Nicole, to my mind Fallacy Detective is a vile work of polemics and propaganda masquerading as a "critical thinking/logic" book. Like the equally despicable Introductory Logic By Douglas Wilson and James Nance, the Blundorn's have agendas they want to push that have nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with the right-wing political/theological views they want to push on children. Anyone who recommended such a work would instantly lose any and all credibility with me. That is for sure. Bill Ah, Bill. Although I haven't seen Fallacy Detective, the Amazon reviews did make me feel a little smidgen skeptical about the essay course. I've liked Pudewa's other stuff, though, especially the spelling course, Phonetic Zoo, which works in our household of auditory learners.... So now I have to go watch the essay course, is that it?! Alas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Ah, Bill. Although I haven't seen Fallacy Detective, the Amazon reviews did make me feel a little smidgen skeptical about the essay course. I've liked Pudewa's other stuff, though, especially the spelling course, Phonetic Zoo, which works in our household of auditory learners.... So now I have to go watch the essay course, is that it?! Alas. I would say so. I don't know all that much about Andrew Pudewa to be honest. But the Blundorn materials are so toxic that any person who recommended them would be considered "deeply suspect" by me. I'm beyond frustrated with the number of educational materials that turn out to have axes to grind. And how often the agendas are hidden. Proceed with caution is all I can say. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) never mind. :auto: Edited February 17, 2009 by Karenciavo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 We just started using The Art of Argument by Classical Academic Press. I believe it's intended for 7th grade or so. I asked Bill a while ago (when he was giving his opinion about FD elsewhere) if he had any opinion of AoA, but he hadn't reviewed it yet. Hop to it, Bill! :D The also recently published The Argument Builder, which is intended for 8th grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lorna Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Nicole, to my mind Fallacy Detective is a vile work of polemics and propaganda masquerading as a "critical thinking/logic" book. Like the equally despicable Introductory Logic By Douglas Wilson and James Nance, the Blundorn's have agendas they want to push that have nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with the right-wing political/theological views they want to push on children. Anyone who recommended such a work would instantly lose any and all credibility with me. That is for sure. Bill Bill, do you have any recommendations for better texts or courses in logic? I would be interested in your reviews. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillary in KS Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) We're using "Fallacy Detective" now (after a disastrous semester with "Critical Thinking 1") and are enjoying it. It's *much* fluffier than CT1, but easier to digest. We needed a lighter intro to logic this semester, before we dive into something meatier later on. I haven't noticed it being terribly religious (maybe a couple of questions in the exercises), but we're only 1/2 way through the book. You've made me curious, though. I'll have to go back and look. Bill, I thought your kids were younger than high school? Have you read "Fallacy Detective" or are you just going by the Bluedorn name? What are your children using for logic? ETA: As much as we've enjoyed "Fallacy Detective" this semester, I don't think it's comprehensive enough for high school work. We're using it now because ds likes the humor in it, and I needed something to restore his interest in logic. I'm also interested in something more challenging to use after we complete "Fallacy Detective." Edited February 17, 2009 by Hillary in KS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I would say so. I don't know all that much about Andrew Pudewa to be honest. But the Blundorn materials are so toxic that any person who recommended them would be considered "deeply suspect" by me. I'm beyond frustrated with the number of educational materials that turn out to have axes to grind. And how often the agendas are hidden. Proceed with caution is all I can say. Bill Well, much as I do not like The Fallacy Detective for very specific and citeable reasons, isn't it some sort of fallacy to discard a whole body of work from a person on one subject because of his position on another? Everyone, I think, has blind spots. I'm sure I must. Perhaps you, too? I quite skeptical about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) I would say so. I don't know all that much about Andrew Pudewa to be honest. But the Blundorn materials are so toxic that any person who recommended them would be considered "deeply suspect" by me. I'm beyond frustrated with the number of educational materials that turn out to have axes to grind. And how often the agendas are hidden. Proceed with caution is all I can say. Bill Bill, have you been homeschooling high school age children for long? Of course, I'm sure if the agenda was liberal, environmental agendas, they wouldn't be axes to grind or hidden agendas. They would simply be correct. :tongue_smilie: Haven't been here in months.....obviously haven't missed much. Edited February 17, 2009 by 8FillTheHeart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 We just started using The Art of Argument by Classical Academic Press. I believe it's intended for 7th grade or so. I asked Bill a while ago (when he was giving his opinion about FD elsewhere) if he had any opinion of AoA, but he hadn't reviewed it yet. Hop to it, Bill! :D The also recently published The Argument Builder, which is intended for 8th grade. Well, goodness, Sue, I think your opinion is as good as anyone else's! :D So, what do *you* think of AoA? BTW, we are using and liking FD. Yes, we are Christian. And, amazingly, some of the fallacies presented in the exercises are taken from Christian pamphlets, etc., which shows (IMO) that the Bluedorns are very aware that *everyone* is subject to fallacious thinking. At any rate, my ds is learning how to be more discerning - something I definitely would have benefitted from at his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Bill, have you been homeschooling high school age children for long? Of course, I'm sure if the agenda was liberal, environmental agenda's, they wouldn't be axes to grind or hidden agendas. They would simply be correct. :tongue_smilie: Haven't been here in months.....obviously haven't missed much. Say it isn't so! We have to deal with this nonsense here, on the HS board? I just began lurking here and now...pfffft.:glare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Nicole, to my mind Fallacy Detective is a vile work of polemics and propaganda masquerading as a "critical thinking/logic" book. Like the equally despicable Introductory Logic By Douglas Wilson and James Nance, the Blundorn's have agendas they want to push that have nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with the right-wing political/theological views they want to push on children. Anyone who recommended such a work would instantly lose any and all credibility with me. That is for sure. Bill Just FYI, Bill, I reported this post. It's inflammatory and unnecessary, but I am sure you feel better having voiced your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in MO Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Well, much as I do not like The Fallacy Detective for very specific and citeable reasons, isn't it some sort of fallacy to discard a whole body of work from a person on one subject because of his position on another? Everyone, I think, has blind spots. I'm sure I must. Perhaps you, too? I quite skeptical about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's a type of the argumentum ad hominem, called "poisoning the well"; i.e., an attack on the speaker or source rather than on the argument itself. The second edition of The Well-Trained Mind refers to this on p. 247. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Ah, the beauty of homeschooling. We have the freedom to subscribe to any so-called agenda we like. Isn't freedom wonderful? And, anyone who disputes the right for any parent to teach their child according to their own world view has instantly lost all credibility with me. That's for sure. Anyway, we used Memoria Press's logic materials in high school for my son. He did Traditional Logic. Material Logic had just been published around the time he graduated, so we never got around to using it. I plan to when dd gets to high school, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesloonybin Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 We tried Fallacy Detective this year and did not care for it. I do think some of the questions were not appropriate but I also feel that the book was not clear as to what it was explaining and it would ask you to answer the following questions a certain way but then the answer was not what they were asking. It was very frustrating for my daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 Gosh, now I'm sorry I asked. I'm sure there are plenty of folks here who wouldn't touch a liberal text with a ten foot pole, in much the same way that Bill or I would be wary of the Bluedorn's work. I'm wondering about the Teaching Company course on Argument now. I'll search the boards to see what I find. And thanks, Sue, for recommending the Art of Argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Of course, I'm sure if the agenda was liberal, environmental agendas, they wouldn't be axes to grind or hidden agendas. They would simply be correct. :tongue_smilie: Haven't been here in months.....obviously haven't missed much. No, that simply isn't so, not from my perspective, at least. I would take as much exception to that sort of nonsense and loading from a LOGIC book from either perspective. I'm sorry. No. Not even close. And momof7, I've MISSED you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Laurie Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 We did the Art of Argument and I think there were just a few references to abortion from a pro-life perspective, but I don't recall anything about creation science in there. I liked it well enough and ds thought the ads were funny. My memory is real sketchy though, I should go dig it out. I'm Christian and am positive I'm much more conservative than Bill, so I took his review with a generous pinch of salt, but he did lead me to looking at Amazon reviews and that saved me $22. I was going to buy this, it did look light for high school but that's what we need right now; now I won't be buying it. The creation science angle will not work for us. So you don't have to be liberal to dislike this book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Just FYI, Bill, I reported this post. It's inflammatory and unnecessary, but I am sure you feel better having voiced your opinion. Buh? I don't use Fallacy Detective, and I'm not a Left or Right wing nut. Some people just prefer their teaching materials to be devoid of religion. Having a strong opinion that materials by certain authors or publishers are absolute crap doesn't make one's opinion either inflammatory or unnecessary; it just means that some people have a strong opinion. Personally, I have valued the people on this site that can simply say: "I like this, and this is why, and I don't like this, and this is why". It makes looking for curricula much easier than wading through reams of wish-wash. _________________________________ All that said, my personal opinion is that many people are trying to teach what amounts to formal logic to kids who aren't remotely able to grasp the concepts involved. Even a 'simple' Venn diagram isn't all that simple once you get into it. Just by doing a basic google search for "formal logic" I was able to find many programs. Are they with cartoons and other "fun" stuff? No. Because the concepts involved are not elementary/middle school concepts - they are minimally high school level concepts. As an example, here is a free program on the UC Davis site: http://tellerprimer.ucdavis.edu/ It has an entire logic book in .pdf form. It is simple to read, but it is not aimed at children. It is aimed at teens and above. I recognize that my idea that logic is not for children is not shared by many here, but personally, I have found that trying to teach subjects before the child's mental development has reached the proper level is futile. asta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Well, goodness, Sue, I think your opinion is as good as anyone else's! :D So, what do *you* think of AoA? Honestly, we just started it. We've gotten through about 2 fallacies so far. But, so far, so good. It gets mostly favorable reviews on the WTM secular yahoo group. My understanding is that it is not strictly secular, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Ah, the beauty of homeschooling. We have the freedom to subscribe to any so-called agenda we like. Isn't freedom wonderful? And, anyone who disputes the right for any parent to teach their child according to their own world view has instantly lost all credibility with me. That's for sure. Don't ever think of moving to the province of Québec, where parents are no longer allowed to decide what kind of religious schooling their kids will be subjected to in school... :sad: :angry: Just venting our local situation, don't mind me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in MO Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Nicole, to answer your original question, you might try sending a PM to Myrtle. I haven't seen Myrtle around here in literally months, but you might be able to get ahold of her. Myrtle and Charon are probably two of the most brilliant people I've ever encountered on these boards. On his old blog, Charon listed some of the logic materials that he used, plus he had a voluminous list of logic books and books of philosophy that he had either read or was planning on having his dc read. When Charon used to post here, he could detect a logical fallacy in the blink of an eye. You might possibly be able to get ahold of Myrtle and see if a link to Charon's old blog is still available, or if she can give you any recommendations. If you hear back from her, tell her hello from all of us, OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaLisa Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Nicole, to my mind Fallacy Detective is a vile work of polemics and propaganda masquerading as a "critical thinking/logic" book. Like the equally despicable Introductory Logic By Douglas Wilson and James Nance, the Blundorn's have agendas they want to push that have nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with the right-wing political/theological views they want to push on children. Anyone who recommended such a work would instantly lose any and all credibility with me. That is for sure. Bill This doesn't answer her question for a secular recommendation other than Fallacy Detective. It's a pot-stirring answer and perhaps would have been better as a pm. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiloh Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 and everything to do with the right-wing political/theological views they want to push on children. So perfectly balanced. Adjust the meds, change the sweatpants and open the basement window! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Don't ever think of moving to the province of Québec, where parents are no longer allowed to decide what kind of religious schooling their kids will be subjected to in school... :sad: :angry: Just venting our local situation, don't mind me... I'm really sorry to hear that. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Gosh, now I'm sorry I asked. I'm sure there are plenty of folks here who wouldn't touch a liberal text with a ten foot pole, in much the same way that Bill or I would be wary of the Bluedorn's work. I'm wondering about the Teaching Company course on Argument now. I'll search the boards to see what I find. And thanks, Sue, for recommending the Art of Argument. You're probably right. :) However, in most cases, you'd not find someone who's a fan of Bluedorns or Pudewa make a post completely bashing a secular work in such an inflammatory way. Good luck finding what you're looking for. It seems finding just the right material is always a challenge, regardless of what world view you hold. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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