Sell me on copywork/dictation-does it really work?

[HappyGrace]

I've done copywork over the years with dd9 (never tried dictation), but I don't see that it's done much. It's always just felt like busywork. The writing skills she has developed have really come from the IEW type work we're doing now. Maybe we needed to be discussing the copywork? Or am I missing something? Now, dictation-the more I think about dictation, I am seeing more value to it, mainly studied dictation, and I'm planning on starting this with her.

 

I have ds5 coming up, and I'm wondering if it's worth it to do copywork with him beyond the bits and pieces like I've done with dd.

 

(Narration, both oral and then written-I do "get it" with that-we've done it, although not a ton, but I can see the value in it because she can summarize beautifully, which is an amazing notetaking and report-writing, etc., skill.)

 

I think I could understand copywork being successful if it's "studied copywork"-discussing the commas and spellings and so on first. Is that the way it should be done?

 

Any success stories with copywork?

[PeterPan]

There seem to be two schools of thought on this. Some people, more of a CM-mode, like to continue copywork quite a while. However for WTM (and I forget if it was SWB or JW, but one of them said in person at the convention) it's more of a progression. Copywork leads to dictation. When they can do copywork easily, you dump it and just do dictation. It's just like the earlier progression of skills (oral narration, to you helping write the narration, till they finally write it for themselves). The latter was what fit us better. About 2nd gr dd got very weary of copywork and we went to straight dictation. Studied dictation or studied copywork doesn't seem to improve anything for us.

 

So I say do what fits your dc. If your kid is sick of copywork or doesn't seem to be benefiting from it or can write accurately (with reasonable assistance) in dictation WITHOUT copywork, then obviously they have mastered that stage and can move on. When you make them do things that numb the mind, all it does is turn their brains off and turn out trashy work. It needs to have enough challenge, thought, or whit that it engages their brain and interests them. Some kids might be fine with continuing copywork a long time, but others most definitely WON'T. Don't be afraid to toss copywork if it's benefit has passed. As for dictation, well we haven't done much of that this year, and dd continues to progress. When the benefit has passed, drop it. That's my two cents.

[Peela]

I would say your child has outgrown copywork and needs to move onto dictation. Copywork is not going to do much- I still use it for my 13yo but he really needs the handwriting practice - but dictation uses a whole lot of other skills and he does both. I would say that the reason you are not seeing much result from it is that your child is not challenged by copywork. Try dictation and see if she is challenged by that- if not, try a harder dictation- keep going to you find her edge, where she is stretched a little.

I was brought up on dictation and have used it with my kids- but one child doesnt seem to need it- the other seems to benefit from it.

[Marylou]

I have done just the opposite, it seems. We've been light on copywork (except for handwriting) and heavier on dictation. Dictation has many benefits for us. I dictate a sentence, "The sun is shining today." for example, and they write it to the best of their ability in their practice books. I tell them that they just have to do their best, keeping in mind punctuation, spelling and neatness. When they are done, I write it on the board and then we discuss what they did right and wrong. Then they write it one more time, even if they did it perfectly, "just for more handwriting practice". (I guess we do more copywork than I thought.) Anyway, this works well for us. It shows me their handwriting, spelling problems, punctuation all at one sitting. It's a good use of time for us.

 

Donna

 

Twin third grade girls

Edited February 3, 2009 by dmmosher

[plimsoll]

We don't do either of them. For writing, we use CW and IEW. My son practices correcting grammar, spelling and punctuation by editing his own writing and using Easy Grammar and Daily Grams. So for us, copywork and dictation would essentially be a form of handwriting practice.

 

We do use WWE for some oral narration, primarily to teach my son to speak in complete sentences.

Edited February 3, 2009 by plimsoll

[Chloe]

Donna,

 

I love the way you do dictation! We do dictation every day, but I have always had my dc study the passage first (usually a couple of complex sentences). They always get the punctuation right, but sometimes misspell a word. My dc are terrible spellers. I may try to do it your way, just so I know if they are really understanding the punctuation, or just remember it from seeing the passage first.

[Colleen in NS]

Any success stories with copywork?

 

We do the copywork-into-dictation progression method, alongside narration, WTM style. Ds-almost 11 can now write sentences, properly punctuated and spelled, from my dictation and from his own mind. This success is now translating into his being able to write a coherent paragraph.

 

Just do it. :D

[Lovedtodeath]

I think that if you really have questions about copywork and dictation, then you should listen to the SWB audio on writing, and/or read the WWE teacher's manual. (Maybe you could borrow these?) Because it really explains the benefit and the progression, not to mention the how-tos.

[Sew happily ever after]

LOVE copywork here! It works well with our schedule. And I do feel that it is beneficial to my children. DD9 has moved on to dictation, but she still does copywork each day and it is longer passages. Also keep in mind that copywork should be copied EXACTLY as it is written. Any mistakes and they can be corrected or redone. It causes them to be very careful and pay attention to what is written. As for dictation, I don't use the dictation from FLL 3...many of the words are unfamiliar or unknown in spelling yet. So we use the dictation sentences from AAS 3 which makes more sense to me to use since they know how to spell all of the words. Some of the dictation passages in WWE and FLL are quite abstract and if the student struggles with spelling then writing dictation from those passages are just going to discourage them.

[ilovemy4kids]

We started with copywork and moved onto dictation as they grew older. We now do daily dictation and only weekly copywork. We are using SL core 3+4 and I think the benefits of dictation are worth every bit of effort. My children have found it increases their ability to take notes in church.

Blessings

Sandra

[Kfamily]

and I really regret it. I had dd,11 now, worked up to a short paragraph in dictation and the results in her spelling really improved. We let it go this year(never pulled it together) and I in a panic-stricken moment decided to implement a spelling review with her. I felt like I had never taught her the rules in spelling and I wanted her to have that. I am happy with and will have her finish a spelling rules notebook we are working on as we go through this book but I plan on going back to dictation as soon as we are finished. I have really noticed that as she does these spelling exercises she really does them sooo mindlessly and it isn't sticking. Dictation forced her to stay attentive and this particular skill is one I am always requiring her to work on.

 

HTH:001_smile:

[HappyGrace]

the proponents of copywork (SWB, etc.) so I know what copywork is purported to do, but I just wondered what opinions were from the general population here, and if in fact it was actually working.

 

I so appreciate the responses. The more I think about studied dictation, the more I see how we can use it with older dd to take a close look at some spelling, grammar, etc., in context. I may still have her keep copying her recitation selections, etc., because it helps with memorizing anyway. I do think I'll go ahead and do copywork with younger ds, about the amount I did with dd didn't seem to hurt and who knows, maybe it helped! It doesn't take much time anyway-can't hurt to hedge my bets!

 

(ETA: I didn't mean "party line" with any kind of negative connotation-just wanted to emphasize that I'm familiar with the reasoning behind why the proponents of it say to do it, just wondered if people's practical experience was bearing it out.)

Edited February 3, 2009 by HappyGrace

[dcjlkplus3]

We do both.

We do copywork as part of both FLL and WWE and also occasionally for handwriting.

I think that the more they see and can practice writing words correctly, the better off they will be in the long run.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think everyone is giving their personal experience...:confused:

 

Except me. But I thought maybe you were doing copywork without any guidelines. WWE has the copywork tied into grammar lessons and you do actually point out what to capitalize and why, etc. And like everyone has said, dictation is used in second grade on, which it seems you have not progressed to, which is why I thought more direction might be something you could use.

[MerryAtHope]

I took a class on teaching copywork and dictation from www.bravewriter.com , and that is some of the best money I've ever invested in myself as a teacher. I learned a ton about my kids from it too.

 

I'll try to give an overview, but the copywork/dictation class I took from bravewriter.com was 4 weeks long and had over 100 pages of notes. If you really develop a serious interest in the subject, that's the way to learn! You can get a glimpse of an idea by looking at samples of the Arrow newsletter on that site. She picks things out of the passage to study/point out to your kids.

 

Here's a post I wrote last spring on SL where I gave examples of what I might do from a core 3 book, The Journeyman.

 

***

 

First, here are some things that I look for in a dictation passage:

 

Did I go "wow" when I read it? Did it strike me as powerful, poignant, a beautiful description? Did it have a great message? Is it good advice?

 

If it's good to read, it's good to study and emulate.

 

A passage I didn't get around to using, but has great description, is the sunrise on the top of p. 37.

 

The two I did use, I'll post below. The 2nd I absolutely love for it's beauty and it's power. The first I chose because I thought the message was worthwhile, and in many ways, what summed up Mr. Toppan's teaching also sums up mine.

 

"Will it always be beautiful, Mr. Toppan?"

"Yes," he answered with conviction, "if you keep true to your own feeling for beauty."

"What do you mean by keeping true?"

 

Mr. Toppan looked at him until his eyes seemed not to see the boy Jared, but the man Jared might become. "It's letting God have your life, so that your hands do the work He wants you to do. You've begun rightly, Jared, for that's the beginning and end of all my teaching."

 

Notes: I had my kids do this passage over 2 days (btw, from p. 31). I split it where the line break is. I edited some phrases out & the attributions to make it shorter. It's clear from context who's saying what, and I wanted to get to the heart of the passage w/o wearing out my children.

 

We discussed what it meant when Mr. Toppan looked at Jared & the kids acted out that kind of expression. We talked about what the message meant too.

 

We discussed the use of capitals (names, titles), abbreviations (Mr.) and commas in quotes (lots of practice here!). We've been discussing commas in quotations & for phrasing, and this selection added a third usage--around the name of someone we speak to. (There's not one after Mr. Toppan because it's the end of the sentence, but there is one before, and then below there are commas before and after Jared's name when he's addressed.).

 

I don't go looking for passages that teach certain concepts necessarily--I look for powerful writing and then I ask my kids what they notice, then I point out what I notice, we look at literary elements, then we look at the physical aspects of writing. It gets easier as you get in the mindset of pre-teaching.

 

The 2nd passage we used:

 

It was a night for the stars to bless with light--for Eliza, who through the travail of her body had given a child to the world, and for Jared, who thorugh the travail of his soul was giving a man to the world.

 

p. 98.

 

This passage might not have it's full power until you read it in context, but when you do, wow. When I asked my kids what they noticed, my son noticed the parallel clauses right away--the two travails etc... We talked about that for a bit & what Jared was going through

 

We talked about em dashes (I don't know how to do them on the forums so I use 2 small dashes in place of an em dash), and commas around clauses.

 

This one would have been easier to also do from dictation (sometimes I put harder words we haven't learned or names up on a white board). Sometimes I point out spelling patterns we are working on, like igh in night & light (oh, I asked them if there were any rhyming words, dd found those). Or that the wor in world is a pattern when or stands for the "er" sound. (I just recently read that there's a wor pattern, I hadn't really noticed before that it was a pattern, LOL!). The ai in travail. How to turn give into given. I don't necessarily go over all of these, I pick the ones that won't be too much to focus on.

 

BTW, this would be a great book to discuss foreshadowing! I don't want to post a spoiler, but I'll just say if you're looking for it, you can guess much of what will happen. This is a book to relax into and enjoy the beautiful language and the unfolding of the story line. There are lots of other passages one could choose for copywork, I remember almost every chapter having choices, you can't really go wrong in this book.

 

Oh, here's another one: The moon threw a silver cloak across his shoulders and before it was withdrawn, he was asleep. p. 44

 

***

 

Basically what you do is teach the passage. I used to just kind of give it to my kids & have them copy it. We might talk about a passage's meaning, but not a lot else. But now when I look at a passage I have chosen (because of it's beautiful or powerful writing, the message, good use of imagery or descriptive words or metaphors/similes, or a great hook, etc...), I think about what I could teach from it that my kids don't know, and I review concepts they DO know.

 

For example, where does the punctuation go in relation to quote marks? Why are certain marks used (what's the role of a colon or a semi-colon, or a comma?) Why is there a word capitalized in the middle of a sentence? By asking questions you are drawing special attention to features, and you are discovering what your kids understand and what they don't. Who can find a simile or a metaphor? What do you like about this passage? Who can find alliteration? Who can find any words that rhyme? I see three different ways to spell the long e sound, who can find one? Etc... We play with the passage & enjoy it.

 

I might point out spelling patterns they have recently learned (who can find a silent "gh?"). Or I might point out one we haven't learned yet (what do you think we say when we see this letter combination?). I might point out an irregular verb (one you don't just add -ed to in order to make it past tense).

 

Sometimes my kids notice things I didn't notice.

 

I like to make a list of things that we can cover in a passage, and take 10-15 minutes discussing it, then giving the assignment to my kids.

 

They are to say the sounds as they copy. I discovered through my class that my son was saying letter names most of the time & that won't help them learn how to spell.

 

In the class I took, we did a very thorough assessment to see what skills they had in copywork, and what needed working on, it was fascinating. I used to think dictation was more valuable, but I don't necessarily think that any more. I see that they both have a lot of value, and that I can get a lot of mileage out of copywork.

 

If you wanted to do it systematically, you could make a list of things to cover and then mark down whenever you cover those things.

 

If you wanted to, you could build a whole LA program around copywork and dictation.

 

Well, hth some! Merry :-)

[ladydusk]

I took a class on teaching copywork and dictation from www.bravewriter.com , and that is some of the best money I've ever invested in myself as a teacher. I learned a ton about my kids from it too.

 

I don't see a course like this on the website, can you give more details (Course Title or if it is only scheduled at certain times of year?) This sounds particularly helpful and interesting!

[Lovedtodeath]

I took a class on teaching copywork and dictation from www.bravewriter.com , and that is some of the best money I've ever invested in myself as a teacher. I learned a ton about my kids from it too.

 

 

WOW!

[HappyGrace]

that's almost exactly what I had in mind to make it more effective! I had looked at Bravewriter Arrow before and that's one of the things that helped me understand and appreciate that type of studied dictation. It is a model for what I hope to do with studied dictation. I didn't know there was a course to TEACH the teacher how to do this-amazing! Is it still offered?

 

Lovedtodeath, I see what you were trying to say now-that I was maybe attempting it without guidance so that's why it wasn't effective, and that something like WWE would help that. I was misunderstanding-sorry! You're a dear-thank you!

[Colleen in NS]

Any success stories with copywork?

 

I think everyone is giving their personal experience...:confused:

 

Lovedtodeath,

 

The thread title says/questions, "Sell me on copywork/dictation - does it really work?" Then the above quote by HappyGrace asks another question. I gave my personal experience to show that copywork/dictation really did work here, and that we had success with copywork.

[Lovedtodeath]

LOL Colleen! I am so misunderstood. I meant that the personal experiences were a good thing... what Grace was looking for.

 

I'm familiar with the party line put out by

the proponents of copywork (SWB, etc.) so I know what copywork is purported to do, but I just wondered what opinions were from the general population here, and if in fact it was actually working.

 

But because of what she said here, it seemed like she wasn'y happy with the responses and that is why I was :confused: confused. Edited February 4, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Colleen in NS]

LOL Colleen! I am so misunderstood. I meant that the personal experiences were a good thing... what Grace was looking for.

 

Oh, OK! With that :confused: icon placed where it was, it looked to me like you wondered why people were sharing personal experiences. But I think I get where you're coming from now. :D

 

And now back to the thread....HappyGrace, have we sold you on it yet?? :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

I knew where your confusion came from, though.;)

[HappyGrace]

Yeah, I think it was the :confused: that threw me off too!

 

And yes, I'm pretty sold. But it'll be more of a studied dictation for older dd, at this point. For younger ds, I will have him copy, but I think I can start really basic things with him to make it "studied" and less like busywork-pointing out a spelling or the capital letter or endmark or the fact that "I" is always capitalized, etc. I guess kind of like FLL does, so I've come back around the circle to the copywork bandwagon! :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

I edited my explanation of the :confused: response. Just so we all understand. :)

[MerryAtHope]

I don't see a course like this on the website, can you give more details (Course Title or if it is only scheduled at certain times of year?) This sounds particularly helpful and interesting!

 

It's called the One Thing Copywork/Dictation class I believe (I know it's a "One Thing" class as she does a series of classes under that theme of focusing on one thing at a time, rather than trying to do it all.

 

Some years it's offered twice a year, some years not. I know it was just offered in the fall, I'm not sure when it will come up again, maybe late spring, summer or next fall. You could email Julie, the site owner/author, and ask if she has another session coming up.

 

Merry :-)

[ladydusk]

Thanks so much! I'll do that!

[Marylou]

Donna,

 

I love the way you do dictation! We do dictation every day, but I have always had my dc study the passage first (usually a couple of complex sentences). They always get the punctuation right, but sometimes misspell a word. My dc are terrible spellers. I may try to do it your way, just so I know if they are really understanding the punctuation, or just remember it from seeing the passage first.

 

Thanks, Chloe. Just this week I started using Psalm 119 for dictation and copywork (about 3 verses per day). I tell my two girls that if I use a word that they're not sure how to spell, they should just try their best to write it correctly. It's sort of like a game to see whether they can use the phonics rules to figure it out. If a phrase ends with a semicolon I tell them to put one. (I plan to teach that another time). The nice thing about that particular psalm is that it has a lot of repeated words, and usually the "hard word" will come up again a few verses later. The girls have composition books which they use for this. After I dictate the verse (usually just half a verse at a time) they repeat it back to me and then they write it on the left side of the book. I then write it on the white board, and they copy it neatly on the right side of their books. I can see their pride in their work at the end of the day. (It is nice to have one side all neatly writeen to show Daddy when he comes home!)

 

Happy schooling!

 

Donna

[kalanamak]

Since you are asking about this vis a vis a 5 year old, I'll say that I started copywork in handwriting last year, and dictation of single words for SWR last year, too. Kiddo does better handwriting when he is copying words of things he likes (Zaner Bloser does this for 2M), and he really, really concentrates on his SWR lessons. He likes to be able to do them himself ("Now, don't tell me about the 3 above the /ah/, because I know it is /ah/ as is wasp, and that is A's third sound) and concentrating hard makes him be able to spout it out before I can.

 

In short, in our first grade, both have been useful and well tolerated.

[Strawberry Queen]

I like copywork for getting lots of word images into my dd's head. It's easier to spell a word that you've written a few times. I did copywork in gr.1 with oldest and some in gr.2. Now in 3rd we mostly do dictation, although Merry's copywork lesson looks terrific. For ease of use I'm using WWE workbook with dd in 1st this year. It tells me what to emphasize and gives all of the passgaes. Lots less work for me which I appreciate.:)

[Julie in GA]

I'm also using "straight dictation" with my older dc, and I highly recommend it.

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, my son is doing a group lesson using Bravewriter with a friend of his right now. These lessons include dictation. The mom who leads them reads the dictation and allows them to write it, then discusses various problem areas they might have had and other special points about why there was a specific sort of punctuation used in that sentence, etc. They don't rewrite the entire thing, but they do correct any mistakes they made after discussion. I think this helps them to internalize proofing of their own work and thereby make fewer mistakes over time.

[Marylou]

bump