lying

[CalicoKat]

My biggest parenting challenge is teaching honesty to my one child. She's 8 now. She's got ADHD. She's impulsive as heck. And when it comes to honesty its not there. She lies about big important stuff and about small stooopid things. I can't tell

 

I'm hoping to come up with another creative method to apply to this child in hopes that something about honesty sticks.

 

- we've tried "not believing anything she says." She could care less.

 

- we've tried playing the judge and presenting her with the facts and disciplining on the evidence since it's impossible to tell or know what in fact did or did not happen.

 

- we've tried tomato staking until there's a confession. OMG it can go on for days.

 

- we've tried swats. Frankly her hiney is a moving target and her less than submissive (not for lack of our trying) makes these sessions look more like child abuse than discipline. I use swats for kids who have attempted something that could have harmed their person or anothers.

 

- we've tried hot sauce, she loves it.

 

DH and I model honesty, truthfulness, and self control continually. Is it possible that this concept is something she won't ever learn? Although this child and I aren't biologically related I do have one sister who is a liar. I don't want that future for my child.

 

I am not giving up. I am utterly out of creative ideas. I despair though that this child, (my favorite baby) ....

[Paintedlady]

I have one who is more prone to lying than the other. What seems to make a difference is making them write verses out of the Bible that talk about lying. First offense, they have to write the verse 2 times. 2nd offense, 4 times, and so on. They learn real quick that their day isn't much fun if they're stuck at the table after school writing instead of playing. hth!

 

Although this child and I aren't biologically related I do have one sister who is a liar. I don't want that future for my child.

I'm not sure what being biologically related to your child has to do with it?

[coralloyd]

I make sure my children know that I HATE lying more than anything else. If they lie they will get in more trouble than if they tell the truth. If they come to me and tell me the truth about something they were afraid to; we just talking about what they should have done instead. No action is taken unless it is really bad, (thankfully I haven't run into this yet). If I catch them in a lie including any form of deceit, not just out right lying, they have to drink a tsp. of apple cider vinegar. They absolutely hate this (it really is nasty :tongue_smilie:). Then they must write "I will not lie", however many time I choose. Bible verse are a good tool also, if they are repentant, to bring the point home. If they still have an attitude or are angry, I don't use the Bible, because I don't want them to resent the Word of God.

[plansrme]

I also have a child who lies when it suits her. She has gotten better as she's gotten older, though she's only 8, so she's got a ways to go. I try not to set her up for failure, so I remove temptation wherever possible--I rip out the answers from the backs of her books, for example. I don't ask her if she's done X, I determine that for myself wherever possible. If I can't prove she's done something with extrinsic evidence, so that I would have to rely on her confession, she doesn't get punished for it.

 

I want her to think of herself as an honest person and, eventually, grow into one. I took this approach because she was starting to identify herself as the "bad child" in the family. I also take every opportunity to point out how lying and cheating come back to bite people--in the news, in our circle of friends, etc. When she's older, if it is still a problem, we will take stronger punitive measures. For now, though, we act like you do with breakables when there's a toddler in the house.

 

Terri

[Mari]

Wow, Calico. I've dealt with a few whoppers over here but it sounds like nothing compared to your situation. I'm no expert on this but I'm concerned for you because you methods so far seem 1) numerous, 2) excessive, and mainly, 3) reactive.

 

I don't want to sound judgemental because I truly feel your desire to remedy the situation and teach your daughter the virtue of honesty. It just seems that you have forgotten she's EIGHT yrs. old. Playing the judge and not believing anything she says seems contadictory to me although pehaps I'm not understanding correctly. Also, I'm not sure what tomato staking is but you really lost me with the hot sauce. Really??? Swatting? Where is it that you are modeling the self-control? I just don't get your reasoning here. I know this sounds harsh but I'm trying to see it from your child's perspective, too.

 

You also mentioned she's not your biological child so I'm not sure if she's adopted or your husband's by a previous marriage. To me, excessive lying is a call for attention. Remember, to many kids, attention is attention, even if it's negative. Is it possible she's insecure about her presence in your living situation? Maybe others from blended and adoptive families can chime in here, but I would imagine this to be a testing of wills, boundaries, and unconditional love.

 

I'll be curious to read what others have to say.

[SonshineLearner]

I feel for you as I have one bio child who just finds it hard to tell the truth. With our youngest bio one, my husband really wanted to nip it in the bud...so, before he would ask about something, he would set them up for telling the truth. Remember, telling the truth is the MOST important part, think about the truth for a moment...THEN...tell me....What happened? This worked for him.

With my first step-daughter, the first time she lied, she was 6(she's older than both of my bios) and got no sweets the whole wknd during family camp. She's 13 and I haven't seen her lie since then.

Lying is hard, because we all know someone who lies like they're telling the day of the week. You can't tell when they are lying or not...because the cease to think of it as wrong. I've had a friend and a family member that you just never knew when they were telling you the truth. You just got use to fairy tales.

Carrie:-)

Edited January 9, 2009 by NayfiesMama

[CalicoKat]

I have one who is more prone to lying than the other. What seems to make a difference is making them write verses out of the Bible that talk about lying. First offense, they have to write the verse 2 times. 2nd offense, 4 times, and so on. They learn real quick that their day isn't much fun if they're stuck at the table after school writing instead of playing. hth!

 

Although this child and I aren't biologically related I do have one sister who is a liar. I don't want that future for my child.

 

I'm not sure what being biologically related to your child has to do with it?

Because my sister is a habitual liar, I didn't want this to be assumed to be a genetic predisposition here. Kinda a stoopid relation. But still.

[CalicoKat]

Wow, Calico. I've dealt with a few whoppers over here but it sounds like nothing compared to your situation. I'm no expert on this but I'm concerned for you because you methods so far seem 1) numerous, 2) excessive, and mainly, 3) reactive.

 

I don't want to sound judgemental because I truly feel your desire to remedy the situation and teach your daughter the virtue of honesty. It just seems that you have forgotten she's EIGHT yrs. old. Playing the judge and not believing anything she says seems contadictory to me although pehaps I'm not understanding correctly. Also, I'm not sure what tomato staking is but you really lost me with the hot sauce. Really??? Swatting? Where is it that you are modeling the self-control? I just don't get your reasoning here. I know this sounds harsh but I'm trying to see it from your child's perspective, too.

 

You also mentioned she's not your biological child so I'm not sure if she's adopted or your husband's by a previous marriage. To me, excessive lying is a call for attention. Remember, to many kids, attention is attention, even if it's negative. Is it possible she's insecure about her presence in your living situation? Maybe others from blended and adoptive families can chime in here, but I would imagine this to be a testing of wills, boundaries, and unconditional love.

 

I'll be curious to read what others have to say.

Tomato staking is also called shadowing. Basically it's keeping the child close for a duration of time until an apology for their action is made.

 

Obviously you have perfect children and you've not struggled consistently, daily, hourly with the impulsiveness of an ADHD child.

[CalicoKat]

I also have a child who lies when it suits her. She has gotten better as she's gotten older, though she's only 8, so she's got a ways to go. I try not to set her up for failure, so I remove temptation wherever possible--I rip out the answers from the backs of her books, for example. I don't ask her if she's done X, I determine that for myself wherever possible. If I can't prove she's done something with extrinsic evidence, so that I would have to rely on her confession, she doesn't get punished for it.

 

I want her to think of herself as an honest person and, eventually, grow into one. I took this approach because she was starting to identify herself as the "bad child" in the family. I also take every opportunity to point out how lying and cheating come back to bite people--in the news, in our circle of friends, etc. When she's older, if it is still a problem, we will take stronger punitive measures. For now, though, we act like you do with breakables when there's a toddler in the house.

 

Terri

You have my empathy and prayers for daily strength in to be loving and consistent with your daughter in this.

 

Just knowing that I'm not the only parent struggling is helpful.

[Aggie]

We had the same problem here when dd was about the same age.

 

We did the tomato staking *constantly* (and I'm not exaggerating here), not for a confession, but to make sure she didn't lie. We didn't offer her the chance to lie.

 

First we did the lecture series on why we don't lie and some of the consequences. Then we told her that because she lies, we're not real sure she'll behave appropriately in other situations. "If you lie, we don't know for sure that you won't make other bad decisions."

 

Then the tomato staking began. For however long it took. And we used that opportunity for constant conversation about all virtues.

 

It may have been maturity on our dd's part. But we couldn't allow it to continue.

 

Oh, we did talk about what she would feel like if we lied to her. That brought the concept home, so to speak.

[LizzyBee]

I have a 7 yo with ADHD and dyslexia. She sometimes lies but she doesn't seem as though she's trying to be devious - it seems more like she just doesn't understand the concept of truth vs a lie. The psychologist who diagnosed her said that it's part of the impulsiveness and inability to consider the consequences of her actions. Because of this, I just have a mantra that I repeat every time I suspect she's lying - We always tell the truth; it's important to tell the truth even if we think we'll get in trouble. My hope is that if she hears it often enough, she'll eventually understand and accept it. I think honesty is just one of those things that she will come to understand later than most kids because of her ADHD and other learning problems, so I try not to make too big of a deal out of it for now. It's not that I don't think it's important - I just think it's a developmental issue in her case. If I sensed that my dd was deliberately being defiant and deceptive, I would respond differently.

[Harriet Vane]

Wow, Calico. I've dealt with a few whoppers over here but it sounds like nothing compared to your situation. I'm no expert on this but I'm concerned for you because you methods so far seem 1) numerous, 2) excessive, and mainly, 3) reactive.

 

I don't want to sound judgemental because I truly feel your desire to remedy the situation and teach your daughter the virtue of honesty. It just seems that you have forgotten she's EIGHT yrs. old. Playing the judge and not believing anything she says seems contadictory to me although pehaps I'm not understanding correctly. Also, I'm not sure what tomato staking is but you really lost me with the hot sauce. Really??? Swatting? Where is it that you are modeling the self-control? I just don't get your reasoning here. I know this sounds harsh but I'm trying to see it from your child's perspective, too.

 

You also mentioned she's not your biological child so I'm not sure if she's adopted or your husband's by a previous marriage. To me, excessive lying is a call for attention. Remember, to many kids, attention is attention, even if it's negative. Is it possible she's insecure about her presence in your living situation? Maybe others from blended and adoptive families can chime in here, but I would imagine this to be a testing of wills, boundaries, and unconditional love.

 

I'll be curious to read what others have to say.

 

I find your words to be unnecessarily harsh.

 

Calico's child has bonafide ADHD. It is very, very difficult to parent a child like this. Yes, lying can be (not always, but it can be) a component of ADHD. It is connected to the lack of impulse control. Knowing WHY the lying happens, and loving that child, still do not make it easier to figure out how to parent in such a difficult situation. Harsh judgments from people who do not understand this component does not help either.

 

I have a dear friend whose husband also has ADHD. In many ways he is a great guy, and a person of integrity, but he really struggles with lying. It is related to the lack of impulse control. When he feels lost in a situation he jumps in too quickly and blurts out a lie. He hates this about himself, and has to repent of his lying a lot. His wife, my friend, has gotten very adept at spotting the dishonesty and responds to him saying, "I think that you're lying so we'll have to discuss this in a little while."

 

I don't know what advice to give CalicoKat. I have watched dear friends struggle with the very same thing--adopted children with ADHD due to in utero drug/alcohol exposure. The behaviors are very, very difficult to live with. While I do not know what to do about it, I do offer Calico my hugs and prayer that God will show her the answers she needs each day.

 

:grouphug:

[CalicoKat]

I have a 7 yo with ADHD and dyslexia. She sometimes lies but she doesn't seem as though she's trying to be devious - it seems more like she just doesn't understand the concept of truth vs a lie. The psychologist who diagnosed her said that it's part of the impulsiveness and inability to consider the consequences of her actions. Because of this, I just have a mantra that I repeat every time I suspect she's lying - We always tell the truth; it's important to tell the truth even if we think we'll get in trouble. My hope is that if she hears it often enough, she'll eventually understand and accept it. I think honesty is just one of those things that she will come to understand later than most kids because of her ADHD and other learning problems, so I try not to make too big of a deal out of it for now. It's not that I don't think it's important - I just think it's a developmental issue in her case. If I sensed that my dd was deliberately being defiant and deceptive, I would respond differently.

I do have to remind myself that just because she's 8 and she looks like she 10, she's truly 3 years behind in maturity at least. It's hard because my now 5 yo ds is passing her up in maturity. She see and knows the difference and desires to have the priviledges he has because I can trust him to follow the guidelines/rules.

 

I bought her a real sewing machine for Christmas because of her interest and desires for fashion and design. It's the first "thing" she's shown more than a passing interest in. She knows it's not a toy. I hesitated in buying it because of her impulsiveness. But hey, everything she owns is destroyed I guess if she destroys this too then at least we won't have to work on consistency.

 

I wasn't making a big deal out of it until she accidently started our house on fire Monday and then lied repeatedly to the firemen & police. They told me that if she'd been 18 they'd have arrested her for arson. :001_huh: We have one lighter in the house and it was put up and away. She really had to think about, plan time alone, and get creative with starter supplies to make this happen. An example of her impulsiveness? Surely with respect to consequences, yes.

 

She still won't own up to the deed.

[Tammyla]

I've been thinking on this...

 

Try to be mindful of the questions you ask and how you phrase them. Kinda of set her up for success. Example...."Why did you break your toy?..vs...I saw what happend, please tell me about it..If the answer isn't truthful, continue on with something like...That doesn't sound right...Please try again......"

 

Also since she is predisposed not to think or worry about the integrity of honesty, try lying yourself to model how it feels. My ds learned a good lesson this way when he was around 7. I'll bet she trusts you...to be honest. kwim?

 

Also set you consequences clearly and stick to them. She may need visual reminders lots of modeling and praise.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Tammyla

[CalicoKat]

I find your words to be unnecessarily harsh.

 

Calico's child has bonafide ADHD. It is very, very difficult to parent a child like this. Yes, lying can be (not always, but it can be) a component of ADHD. It is connected to the lack of impulse control. Knowing WHY the lying happens, and loving that child, still do not make it easier to figure out how to parent in such a difficult situation. Harsh judgments from people who do not understand this component does not help either.

 

I have a dear friend whose husband also has ADHD. In many ways he is a great guy, and a person of integrity, but he really struggles with lying. It is related to the lack of impulse control. When he feels lost in a situation he jumps in too quickly and blurts out a lie. He hates this about himself, and has to repent of his lying a lot. His wife, my friend, has gotten very adept at spotting the dishonesty and responds to him saying, "I think that you're lying so we'll have to discuss this in a little while."

 

I don't know what advice to give CalicoKat. I have watched dear friends struggle with the very same thing--adopted children with ADHD due to in utero drug/alcohol exposure. The behaviors are very, very difficult to live with. While I do not know what to do about it, I do offer Calico my hugs and prayer that God will show her the answers she needs each day.

 

:grouphug:

Thank you Strider. I doubt myself every day parenting this child. Your words offer encouragement that I'm not alone. It's not in my head. And it's nothing I've done, or not done, that this is happening. It's just life and now we need to figure it out.

[CalicoKat]

I've been thinking on this...

 

Try to be mindful of the questions you ask and how you phrase them. Kinda of set her up for success. Example...."Why did you break your toy?..vs...I saw what happend, please tell me about it..If the answer isn't truthful, continue on with something like...That doesn't sound right...Please try again......"

 

Also since she is predisposed not to think or worry about the integrity of honesty, try lying yourself to model how it feels. My ds learned a good lesson this way when he was around 7. I'll bet she trusts you...to be honest. kwim?

 

Also set you consequences clearly and stick to them. She may need visual reminders lots of modeling and praise.

All the snow this weekend has been a headache to some. For us it's been a blessing. My dd and I have shoveled out the 3 car driveway 3 times together. It's a consequence for her actions earlier this week that she's my shadow until . . . .

 

She does trust that I will tell her the truth. We'ved talked about her expectations for our honesty. Although she vocalizes it and acts like she understands I'm not sure she's caught it. I'm vehemently against lying to her about something just to set her up. But I'll think on it.

[Rebecca in VA]

Wow, I really like the approach used by NayfiesMama's husband. Before letting the child answer, he stresses the importance of telling the truth and has them pause and ponder on that for a moment.

 

CalicoKat, I do feel for you. I know how hard it is to have a willful child -- my older child gave me some difficult times in his earlier years. We ended up putting him in private school, and my patient husband stepped in and worked intensively with him. Boy Scouts was extremely helpful for him, too. He's now 17 and really doing well. His need to dominate over other people (like me!) has toned itself down and developed into a serious interest in business management, leadership and cooperation in groups, and so on. If my child could be turned around so effectively, I'm sure there's hope for *any* child!

[FriedClams]

I'd just like to chime in a little about the tomato staking. It's not a punitive thing - it's a heart training tool. Having the child near you to force a confession and then letting them off to their own devices is setting them up to fail. You get the confession - they are let out on their own, which she is clearly not ready for, to get into a difficult situation again. The kids should be with you so you can teach and coach them through things as they come up. It's a loving way to mentor and train your kids - not a tool of discipline, (at least as I understand it and I've read the book and website). Yes, it can be exhausting - but as you and your kids adjust it can be a wonderful tool for training and helping a child grow. For this child, I would have them in the same room with you for her waking hours. It's not a bad thing - it's a way you can help her grow into a trustworthy young woman. You can talk with her throughout the day, show her ways to be honest, model honesty, spend time working alongside her and encouraging and supporting her honesty. Sometimes our kids need a consequence - but sometimes they need to be in a training program for certain things and it sounds like you are in a season of making this a priority in your home and in her life.

[linders]

First, Calico, big :grouphug:. I understood all the types of consequences you've tried, they are all valid. I know "I won't believe anything you say for the rest of the day" is a consequence straight from the Love and Logic course I took. I also have some appreciation for what you are dealing with, having grown up with a sister like this. It is frightening to deal with an accomplished, habitual liar.

 

It caught my eye that she is not your bio child, just because of my sister. She was adopted, and it was later learned when records were unsealed that her bio-mom had been an alcoholic, drinking during pregnancy. Habitual lying (far beyond the norm for the age) is one characteristic of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. The alcohol actually affects the part of the brain in the developing fetus that governs inhibitions and moral sense. There are a couple of other neurological disorders that also involve lying.

 

Have you spoken with your pediatrician, by chance? Are there other developmental areas that seem a bit off?

 

I wish you the very best.

[Mari]

I find your words to be unnecessarily harsh.

 

Calico's child has bonafide ADHD. It is very, very difficult to parent a child like this. Yes, lying can be (not always, but it can be) a component of ADHD. It is connected to the lack of impulse control. Knowing WHY the lying happens, and loving that child, still do not make it easier to figure out how to parent in such a difficult situation. Harsh judgments from people who do not understand this component does not help either.

 

I have a dear friend whose husband also has ADHD. In many ways he is a great guy, and a person of integrity, but he really struggles with lying. It is related to the lack of impulse control. When he feels lost in a situation he jumps in too quickly and blurts out a lie. He hates this about himself, and has to repent of his lying a lot. His wife, my friend, has gotten very adept at spotting the dishonesty and responds to him saying, "I think that you're lying so we'll have to discuss this in a little while."

 

I don't know what advice to give CalicoKat. I have watched dear friends struggle with the very same thing--adopted children with ADHD due to in utero drug/alcohol exposure. The behaviors are very, very difficult to live with. While I do not know what to do about it, I do offer Calico my hugs and prayer that God will show her the answers she needs each day.

 

:grouphug:

 

Strider,

 

My words may have seemed harsh but I gave my reasons for them. And to answer Calico--my children and I are far, FAR from perfection. Trust me on that. Neither of my kids have been diagnosed with ADHD but I'm well aware of the struggles of parenting children with it as many in my circle of friends and family have this to live with. I'm also a former social worker and counselor who has worked with families who suffer through this on a daily basis, so Strider, I do understand what Calico is going through.

 

The truth is, all children lie but ALL children need consistency in whatever discipline method you choose. This is why I said her methods were numerous. She has tried MANY different (and contradictory) methods which, IMHO, can cause confusion to any child but especially to those with ADHD who need consistency and structure most of all.

 

I also said her methods were excessive and reactive. They are!!! Hot sauce????? Come on! She's on the right track to model correct behavior, but she's not practicing what she's preaching by the methods she chose.

 

Tammyla had a great response (I'll cut and paste since I don't know how to multi-quote on this forum):

 

I've been thinking on this...

 

Try to be mindful of the questions you ask and how you phrase them. Kinda of set her up for success. Example...."Why did you break your toy?..vs...I saw what happend, please tell me about it..If the answer isn't truthful, continue on with something like...That doesn't sound right...Please try again......"

 

Also since she is predisposed not to think or worry about the integrity of honesty, try lying yourself to model how it feels. My ds learned a good lesson this way when he was around 7. I'll bet she trusts you...to be honest. kwim?

 

Also set you consequences clearly and stick to them. She may need visual reminders lots of modeling and praise.

 

And I don't think she was trying to tell Calico to lie to her DD, but just to model what it looks and sounds like. Her DD may have trouble truly understanding the difference between a truth and a lie. Shadowing is not all that bad, but it's better used proactively rather than punishment. Spend time with just her by your side (mommy and me time), work together on something fun, all the while taking every opportunity to discuss concepts of truth, honesty,trust, etc. She could also read books with her dd about people who possess these character traits and those who don't.

 

Parenting is not easy! Maybe my words seemed harsh, but they were meant with a whole lot of desire to help Calico. They were not meant to hurt her feelings.

 

One last note, she never said if her dd was seeing a therapist. I would highly recommend she does, especially with the possible arson situation. It does sound as if she's at the point of needing professional help.

[Chris in VA]

First off, hugs to you.

 

Linder's post resonates with me--I have a child that may have a diagnosis that includes habitual lying (we are getting the results back soon).

 

About the fire--

Fire setting can be a really, really serious red flag. That coupled with the lack of remorse over lying and the impulsivity would lead me straight to a professional for an evaluation. I don't mean to scare you, but that's the road I'd take, after living with my son.

[buddhabelly]

We have a lot of fetal alcohol syndrome adults in our town. The justice system is at a loss over how to treat them because they just do not understand that their actions are wrong. There is one young man who keeps robbing banks. (This is a small town, and bank robberies are few and far between because there is no road out of here!!) He doesn't even bother to use to a disguise.

 

When he was 7, his behavior would have been classified as "impulsive." As an adult, it is criminal, but what to do about it?

 

I am so sorry, CalicoKat. Obviously, punitive measures will not work with this child. You have tried that. So perhaps look into completely different methods. My heart goes out to you.

 

Julie

[bookmomma]

This is what works for me:

First of all, we frequently talk about how it is bad to tell lies. When people tell lies, we lose trust in those people. I also tell my boys that their punishment will be far worse if they lie than if they step up and admit the truth. The other aspect of this is that you have to keep your word about it. If they tell you the truth, you must not over react, but instead briefly discuss why that behavior was wrong and thank them sincerely for telling the truth. It takes a very brave child to admit when he's done something wrong. I never make lying into a negative thing. I don't tell my dc they are bad kids, but rather place the emphasis on making a bad choice. My youngest son absolutely doesn't lie, even when he does bad things. And I always thank him for telling the truth. My oldest son still tries to lie on ocassion, but I ask him, "Are you telling me the truth?" I also sometimes tell them it's better to tell me the truth because I already know what is true. They still believe I'm all-knowing.

 

Just remember, it's not about punishing when they lie, it's about teaching them how lies are not acceptable and they break down trust. The purpose is to teach them not to lie.

[Tammyla]

;) I hear you. Ours or mine revolved around the dinner menu...Not a biggie, but he was disappointed and began to understand. My confession was very forthcoming and explained with love about how we depend on one another to be honest even when it isn't easy.

 

All the snow this weekend has been a headache to some. For us it's been a blessing. My dd and I have shoveled out the 3 car driveway 3 times together. It's a consequence for her actions earlier this week that she's my shadow until . . . .

 

She does trust that I will tell her the truth. We'ved talked about her expectations for our honesty. Although she vocalizes it and acts like she understands I'm not sure she's caught it. I'm vehemently against lying to her about something just to set her up. But I'll think on it.