Update: Help! Math is not getting done. :( Mr D Pre-Algebra is no longer working…

[Ting Tang]

This is turning out to be more algebra than I thought. I think my son is having trouble focusing with video instruction, too. I thought it was great at first. He was strong in arithmetic. I felt it was time for him to move on, but now I don’t know what to do. Perhaps I need a scripted curriculum I can teach? I don’t want to go backwards. I was hoping video lessons would save time, but I think it’s taking him longer than ever to do math. Is there a scripted curriculum that would be easy to use? 

[8filltheheart]

Have you tried sitting with him through the videos and stopping the videos to discuss the concepts/asking him to solve similar problems?  Alternatively, you could watch the videos and then teach the concepts directly.

[Farrar]

How comfortable are you with the content? I think that makes a huge difference in teaching and what sort of program you need.

[Ting Tang]

Thank you! I did think about watching the videos with him, but I think he might just be better off not in front of the screen. I can do the math, but when it comes to teaching it, I appreciate clear, scripted instructions I can give. So… we’re not opposed to switching. He is almost 12, so we have some time. 

[Amoret]

You might consider looking into Math Mammoth. It's clear, straightforward, and their 7th grade level covers Pre-Algebra material. My DD had a few gaps in understanding after Beast Academy, so she did MM 6&7 and really liked it. I think she took a little over a single academic year to do both levels. She went from there into AOPS Intro to Alg. without a problem. It looks like they now have the first half of 8th grade math as well.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Amoret

[Ting Tang]

23 minutes ago, Amoret said:

You might consider looking into Math Mammoth. It's clear, straightforward, and their 7th grade level covers Pre-Algebra material. My DD had a few gaps in understanding after Beast Academy, so she did MM 6&7 and really liked it. I think she took a little over a single academic year to do both levels. She went from there into AOPS Intro to Alg. without a problem. It looks like they now have the first half of 8th grade math as well.

I’ll take another look. It’s been a bit! Thank you!

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

He is almost 12, so we have some time. 

Algebra seems one of those subjects that the brain needs to be ready for. I like the suggestion of Math Mammoth 7. All the teaching is laid out in the student book. What curriculum did he complete just before this?

[Ting Tang]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

Algebra seems one of those subjects that the brain needs to be ready for. I like the suggestion of Math Mammoth 7. All the teaching is laid out in the student book. What curriculum did he complete just before this?

He did CLE last year, then MB 5 & 6 the year prior. I hate the jumping around, but maybe we should look at MM 6-7. The pre-req was grade 5 math for this class. 😬

[Nm.]

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Edited November 3, 2023 by Nm.

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Ting Tang said:

He did CLE last year, then MB 5 & 6 the year prior. I hate the jumping around, but maybe we should look at MM 6-7. The pre-req was grade 5 math for this class. 😬

I misread and thought he was doing algebra this year. Pre-algebra makes more sense, but if he did CLE 5 last year, I wouldn’t expect him to be ready for pre algebra yet. What’s MB? CLE is so procedural that having a year of something with more conceptual teaching—whether that be Math Mammoth or another—isn’t something I would consider “going backward” at all. I’m surprised Mr D says 5th grade math is the prerequisite rather than 6th. It may be better to do MM6 before doing 7.

[8filltheheart]

I'm confused. Did he do CLE 5 or 6 last yr? If he did 6, pre-alg shouldn't be a leap. FWIW, if you watch the videos with him and interact with him about what the videos are teaching, it would essentially be the same thing as scripted instruction. I'm trying to parse out the distinction.

[Ting Tang]

Thank you all. We backtracked to CLE 5 to train him to show his work. It wasn’t a great fit— too much spiral and review with tiny fractions of new teaching, which to me, seemed to be in no particular order. He seemed bored of doing so much arithmetic, es especially from doing master books the year prior both grades, 5 and 6. I asked him if he would like to think about switching or sticking with us and we just do the videos together. We’ve had other people look at this math and claim it is way too difficult for pre-algebra for a 6th grader. Do not think the sample was indicative of what we’re getting. I assumed this would be even more gentle than perhaps it is.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Ting Tang]

I'm looking at MM 6 and 7.  Some of 6 looks easy, but I think he could fly through it and get to 7 quickly.  7 looks, at a glance, to maybe be a better approach to pre-algebra for him?  I didn't think MM would work for my next in line kid, but maybe this is a better fit for this kid.  

[8filltheheart]

You could look at Chalkdust pre-alg.  It is definitely not difficult.  It is very easy.   I'm using it with my granddaughter this yr bc she was not ready to take the same path as my kids.  It is a solid review of elementary math concepts.  

Chalk Dust Company Prealgebra 2nd edition Textbook & Solutions Manual | eBay

Chalk Dust Company Pre Algebra (5th edition) 10 DVDs by Dana Mosely Uncle Buck | eBay

[Nm.]

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Edited November 3, 2023 by Nm.

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Nm. said:

Thanks to something @8filltheheart had mentioned, I stopped allowing complaining during school.

How did you do that? A couple of mine were complainers and I would hear people say things like the above and I always wondered how they meant they achieved that. 

[Nm.]

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Edited November 3, 2023 by Nm.

[Ting Tang]

I think I am going to order MM 6 on Amazon.  This looks like it will be good for him, then he can move to MM 7. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Nm. said:

I count to three and they either have an extra chore, or go to their room.

Lol, my kids in question would be super happy to go to their room rather than do whatever they were complaining about. I have two kids who that would be enough to stop complaining. Not the others. I wondered if there was some magical technique I hadn't heard about that you were talking about.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

I think I am going to order MM 6 on Amazon.  This looks like it will be good for him, then he can move to MM 7. 

You know about the PDFs from the site? That's the more economical, but then you have to print unless you have a good tablet and pencil set up. It's easier to handle the printed pages to me though, as the bound version is so thick it won't lay flat.

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

You know about the PDFs from the site? That's the more economical, but then you have to print unless you have a good tablet and pencil set up. It's easier to handle the printed pages to me though, as the bound version is so thick it won't lay flat.

Oh yes, I do, but we were printing Mr. D. math.  I just assume buy it already printed.  We will take a little reprieve.  I actually decided to order the whole set from Rainbow Resource instead.  I'll have to figure out what to do if the book is super jumbo....lol  

As for my kids, their rooms are not punishment.  Cleaning the bathroom is constructive use of their time if they do not want to do school, lol.  Or cleaning up doggy doo!  Our homeschool has been in shambles between our schedule and my son/me.   I think the change in math might help.  

Edited November 2, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Nm.]

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Edited November 3, 2023 by Nm.

[Shoeless]

My son's algebra performance improves with me sitting next to him. Just sayin'... 😉

[Ting Tang]

11 hours ago, Shoeless said:

My son's algebra performance improves with me sitting next to him. Just sayin'... 😉

I was hoping the course delivery would make him rather independent, but I think it is back to the kitchen for him (literally, lol).  I do better with instruction when I have written materials available to me, so this will be good for me, too.  I know Math Mammoth doesn't come with a teacher guide, but it might make it easier for him to focus with instructions on paper instead of video.  He was going back and re-watching videos.  Sadly, he had an A in the class---but it was causing major conflict anyway.  So I am hoping he will move quickly through MM 6 and onto 7.  He's never done great with classes that require a lot of output.  He will sit and read a book for hours rather than feel inclined to do grammar or math.  It's not the worst thing I tell myself.  But he has to do those things!  lol 

[ByGrace3]

I actually have my kids complete MM 6 before Mr. D Prealgebra which they begin in 7th grade. They have been very prepared and Mr D pre algebra is not super challenging at first after MM6 and allows them to get used to the independence and new delivery style before it ramps up. 

[Shoeless]

On 11/4/2023 at 7:45 AM, Ting Tang said:

I was hoping the course delivery would make him rather independent, but I think it is back to the kitchen for him (literally, lol).  

Independent work doesn't come for a few more years for many, many kids. My 15 yo has only been able to reliably work independently since September. I write out a daily assignment list on the white board and I can trust that he'll work on it rather that play with the cat or daydream, lol.

[8filltheheart]

8 hours ago, Shoeless said:

Independent work doesn't come for a few more years for many, many kids. My 15 yo has only been able to reliably work independently since September. I write out a daily assignment list on the white board and I can trust that he'll work on it rather that play with the cat or daydream, lol.

Agree. And for math, I grade as they work. I might grade 6 problems of 1 student and then turn and grade 2 of another. I just go back and forth grading as they work. It keeps the math conversation flowing and I can clarify understanding immediately.. it makes it 100% clear whether there is mastery with the odd silly error or if we need to stop and review.

Edited November 6, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[countrymum]

4 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Agree. And for math, I grade as they work. I might grade 6 problems of 1 student and then turn and grade 2 of another. I just go back and forth grading as they work. It keeps the math conversation flowing and I can clarify understanding immediately.. it makes it 100% clear whether there is mastery with the odd silly error or if we need to stop and review.

This sounds like a great idea....I kinda didn't this am! This puts it into words though. I'll do it more purposefully tomorrow!

[Shoeless]

17 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Agree. And for math, I grade as they work. I might grade 6 problems of 1 student and then turn and grade 2 of another. I just go back and forth grading as they work. It keeps the math conversation flowing and I can clarify understanding immediately.. it makes it 100% clear whether there is mastery with the odd silly error or if we need to stop and review.

I've recently restarted this. My son was taking a really long time to get work done, so I sat him next to me to see where things were going off the tracks. 

[Asker123]

a late comment but my son is doing AOPS Pre-Algebra. I did not even tell him that videos exist. I am afraid that if he watches videos first that will take away the entire discovery approach of AOPS.

in OP's case Math Mammoth seems like a good fit which is instructions based ( Written to the student in a simple direct way). We ditched Math mammoth because it was too simple and too many similar type of problems.

Each kid is unique so you need to align the curriculum to the kid.

In my case, I am expecting my son to do pre algebra in one full year (10 months after school work and 2 month summer vacation). I think he will face some challenge in Introduction to Algebra book. I saw that book looks complex.

I think with half of AOP pre algebra done, my son knows more math than me now. I did math till Calculus in 90s. I can't sit and explain him things any more. 

[Ting Tang]

Update:  Math Mammoth is going worse than Mr. D Pre-Algebra. 

His output is almost nil.  We've had the curriculum since November 8th, and he completed Chapter 1 only, which is a review of 5th grade math.  I have to be honest, I can manage to go over the instructions and examples with him, but I do need for him to be able to do problems and work on his own a bit, too.  I don't mind helping, of course, but it is frustrating when I know he knows how to do something and just...doesn't.  He will sit at his desk with the book open and do nothing.  With four kids, though (and one likely on the spectrum who does need me at his side a good chunk of the time), it's going to be a struggle for me to sit with him for every.single.problem.  

He's reading a lot, and he is now writing a lot since we implemented an imitation in writing program.  So really, the problem is just math output.

I think it's safe to say we won't get through Math Mammoth grade 6 this year.  Maybe this format is not great for him, either.  I don't know.  What would you do with a student who isn't motivated in math at this point but needed the bare minimum basics covered? 

 

[ScoutTN]

Is this a can’t or won’t? 
I suspect this is not a curriculum issue.

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Is this a can’t or won’t? 
I suspect this is not a curriculum issue.

I think it’s more won’t than can’t. But I do think it’s more conceptual than what he has been used to— and maybe it’s a bit overwhelming. 

[LauraClark]

Are there consequences if he doesn't (assuming he understands what you've asked him to do)? Especially if he isn't doing any probably at all. 

Re: feeling overwhelmed: I started having my 12 yo just do math for one hour (which includes instruction time). If he gets done, great! If not, put it aside to work on something else and then come back to it at the end of the day. I'm also only assigning the evens (we use a different curriculum, so not sure that's an option with yours). 

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, LauraClark said:

Are there consequences if he doesn't (assuming he understands what you've asked him to do)? Especially if he isn't doing any probably at all. 

Re: feeling overwhelmed: I started having my 12 yo just do math for one hour (which includes instruction time). If he gets done, great! If not, put it aside to work on something else and then come back to it at the end of the day. I'm also only assigning the evens (we use a different curriculum, so not sure that's an option with yours). 

Not as of yet. And I hate to get mean about it. But I know he needs to finish some kind of curriculum this year. MM does say doing all the problems isn’t necessary, but I don’t know how to pick and choose. They are all so different from each other so far. 

[LauraClark]

37 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Not as of yet. And I hate to get mean about it. But I know he needs to finish some kind of curriculum this year. MM does say doing all the problems isn’t necessary, but I don’t know how to pick and choose. They are all so different from each other so far. 

When we were using Rod & Staff I used to pick the ones that were hardest and assign about 10 problems. Now that he's using Saxon I just started assigning evens, which works out to 15. He's thrilled because some of them are easier...even though it's more problems 🤷‍♀️. I find that if I assign the evens he hits all the review stuff every few days and it seems to work out fine.

[countrymum]

Rod and staff is recommended by Kate Snow as a good math for kids who struggle....I know that memoria press used it k-6 also. You could try grade 7?? Maybe... Rod and staff is very traditional but solid. I think you can go from grade 7 or 8 into Algebra 

 

We tried math mammoth this year...grade 7 is HARD and visually cluttered. My 12 yr old went back to right start middle school. He did not get the bar model way of problem solving. Bar modeling is also the basis of some explanations in other areas. It did not work for us to jump into...even from super conceptual Right start.

 

Also yes to 1 he of math...use a visual timer perhaps. That's what I've gone to. Anything not done is for tomorrow if he's been diligent or is homework. Like done after all other school and chores. It isn't really a punishment just natural consequences. Could your husband help inforce this. 12 yr old boys need daddy back up;)

Edited December 23, 2023 by countrymum

[Nm.]

Sounds like my 12 yo regarding stubbornness.  I have never found a curriculum that fixed that.  I had to go with something that dad could enforce if it wasn’t done which meant something open and go like math mammoth.   I like to do 4 day weeks- if they finish on Thursday they can have Friday off.  Otherwise they have to catch up.   I love bar models and find them super helpful.  I would try getting him up early.  It’s not unreasonable to wake up at 6 before the others to work one on one with you.  It also helps to work through most problems one on one for awhile. The videos are helpful.  But still….lots of one on one with 12 yr old boys and math.  Then after some time, he might say to you- I don’t need your help and do it by himself.  But let him come to that conclusion on his own!  Get him an alarm clock.  Also keep in mind that math is a constant journey of valleys and peaks.  Valleys where they are frustrated, overwhelmed, understand nothing on the page, then bit by bit they climb to the peak where it clicks… only to go back down to a valley and need your help all over again.  It’s called learning.  It’s hard work.  Tears, attitude, and all that are all part of the work of learning.  It manifests differently- for one it might be throwing stuff, while another might cry, or just simply not doing the work (procrastinating).  It doesn’t mean you switch curriculum.  You simply sit by their side and help them.  Math is math is math… take a good look at all the curriculum you’ve purchased over the years.  It all teaches the same stuff.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nm.

[Nm.]

Also- I don’t skip any problems in math mammoth.  I also don’t need to supplement math or switch things up.  They overlearn the concepts and to me that’s a good thing.  I know Maria says you can, but I have seen a lot of average learners jump ship because they didn’t get enough practice and moved too quickly.  It’s not that many problems.  Nothing like Saxon.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nm.

[Ting Tang]

Thank you all.  I think I am really bothered by the idea of not finishing a curriculum this year.  I've actually tried a timer, and it still didn't get done.  I could go to something more traditional.  I think I bought Rod & Staff 2nd grade, and I did feel like it had a lot of work. I'm still going to brainstorm here. Or we just plug along with MM.  

[8filltheheart]

Sitting with him, keeping him on task, and grading problem by problem will probably take less time than the frustration and dealing with him that you experience bc math isn't getting done.  Initially commit an hr/day to sitting with him and keeping him on task. (And it doesn't have to be non-productive time.  You can fold laundry, do handicrafts, pay bills, unload the dishwasher, etc.  It means being physically present and looking over his shoulder every couple of minutes monitoring his progress and refocusing his attention.

FWIW, I also used to get up early with my older kids to work 1-on-1 with them before everyone else was awake. That quiet hr in the morning allowed for major productivity without the distractions of the littler ones.

 

[EKS]

8 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Sitting with him, keeping him on task, and grading problem by problem will probably take less time than the frustration and dealing with him that you experience bc math isn't getting done.

This.  

I even had my high school student tell me his answers from across the room when he was doing his math homework for his PS precalculus and calculus classes.  It gave him instant feedback and kept him moving forward.  

[regentrude]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:34 PM, Ting Tang said:

His output is almost nil.  We've had the curriculum since November 8th, and he completed Chapter 1 only, which is a review of 5th grade math.  I have to be honest, I can manage to go over the instructions and examples with him, but I do need for him to be able to do problems and work on his own a bit, too.  I don't mind helping, of course, but it is frustrating when I know he knows how to do something and just...doesn't.  He will sit at his desk with the book open and do nothing.  With four kids, though (and one likely on the spectrum who does need me at his side a good chunk of the time), it's going to be a struggle for me to sit with him for every.single.problem.  

It is not at all unusual for boys that age to need an adult to be present during math lesson. For the entire time. It is frustrating, yes, but the reality is that he can obviously not do it on his own, and he needs you to keep him on task, refocus him, work the problems together. Of all the homeschool related tasks, this may be one you need to prioritize.

Edited December 30, 2023 by regentrude

[Nm.]

Incase it got lost in my long post… try getting him up early with you.  It will take a couple weeks before it becomes routine, but once it does you’ll save so much time.  The curriculum choice matters very little.  If he doesn’t need you for every single problem- you could work on your own interests next to him (drawing, journaling, painting, knitting, etc).  If he doesn’t cooperate with this- can your husband get up too and see if it helps having his presence there?   

Edited December 30, 2023 by Nm.

[Ting Tang]

Thank you all.  Yes, it seems I am going to need to prioritize this situation.  He charms us by reading a lot and avoiding math lately...  I'll look forward to a fresh start after our break.  My husband has been very hands off this year.  He tried to help my daughter with her Singapore Math, and he couldn't do it.  So I think he's put me in charge, though he does make it clear privileges will be taken away if school work isn't complete.  

[Malam]

Maybe check Denison math - it's meant for math-avoidant kids

[Teach05]

I’m not sure if you’ve tried it and, honestly, my kids aren’t as old as yours so I can’t say I’ve used upper levels, but I LOVE with emphasis Math U See.  We are in our fourth year of it. We’ve done it from the beginning and while I understand some take issue with the zoomed in focus year by year I think it has made my oldest so confident with math. Easily the favorite subject of our house.

We are a Memoria Press family for the most part,  but I have refused to give up MUS especially after trying Rod and Staff for 6 months while I tried to be a “totally MP core person”. 

MUS has a program that is for remediation, or you could do the placement tests and figure out where to start.  There are video lessons but they are so short.  The mastery is everything I think MP is trying to accomplish with Rod and Staff, but, in my opinion, so much more streamlined and with an eye toward taking the curriculum all the way through vs to middle school. 
 

Not sure if it’s one you’ve looked at, but as a person who CRIED for years as a kid having to deal with extreme math issues I wish this curriculum had been available to me back then. 

Edited January 3 by Teach05

[Ting Tang]

@Malam and @Teach05 thank you!   I read about Denison after "Learn Math Fast."  I decided to buy the Learn Math Fast books.  I know curriculum isn't the main issue, but I don't think I want to fiddle around with MM right now.  

Math-u-see intrigued me, too.  And I am going to keep that as an option in the future, too. The LMF books had a set from basic 3rd grade to pre-algebra.  I know it isn't in-depth, but we're going to see if this is just a little more helpful for right now.  

[ktgrok]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:34 PM, Ting Tang said:

.

I think it's safe to say we won't get through Math Mammoth grade 6 this year.  Maybe this format is not great for him, either.  I don't know.  What would you do with a student who isn't motivated in math at this point but needed the bare minimum basics covered? 

 

Dennison math! It is not "tricky" - it has the same set up every day, everything is designed to make it as easy to understand as possible, and give the kids consistent but not overwhelming practice. And there is a full solution video for EVERY problem. He also covers study habits, mindset, etc. I'm head over heels for it at this point with DD, who is good at math but was scared of math and very very very much lacking confidence. Math finally is consistently done without issue. 

[ScoutTN]

MUS is very light at the higher levels, be aware. Good for a review or preview, but not really a full high school level math course, imo.