There is no utopia, but there are options.

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

Also, the construction industry here has never completely recovered from the Great Recession. We are still building fewer homes per year than we did prior to the housing crash despite significant increases in population.

Planet money, or some other NPR show, did an episode awhile back about how this is true for the country as a whole.  We never had enough of a building boom to make up for what should have been built in the 08 crisis and overall never got back up to the level of building that we need. 

 

Matthew Yglesias from Slate often talks about NYIMBism (Not In My Backyard) when it comes to building.  Everyone thinks we should build, but no one wants an apartment complex in their neighborhood.  We're way past being able to build our way out of this crisis with single-family homes, we need lots of rowhouses, apartments, etc. But it's more profitable and much simpler for builders to build large single-family homes for wealthy people.  It's a bit of market failure really.  The market is not providing what is needed because of other barriers, like zoning and NYIMBism. Not to mention that apartments are often hard on infrastructure like schools and daycare centers.   

My hometown really struggled for many years after several apartments were built in a good school zone.  The town wasn't forward-thinking, as per usual, and didn't consider that the apartments would mean more kids enrolled in the school.  The district was overwhelmed for about 5 years before it decided to build a new school, then the school took 2-3 years to build and is finally about to open.  Now a lot of homeowners are mad as hornets because they are getting rezoned into less good schools because adding an elementary school requires redrawing boundary lines.  You can bet they will fight like hell against any more apartments being built.

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Same in Oklahoma.  The market for houses and cars is insane.

And the answer to your last question is a lot of them are actually not making it.  Homeless is on the rise. Moving in with other families is on the rise. We know sooooo many people that if they can’t live with family or have a few roommates - they are making very long commutes. Like 45 minutes to an hour and half is not unusual.

Older people may have done that to get more house for their buck or bc they wanted the “country” life 15 years ago.

But now people just can’t get anything in their price range closer to the major cities where they work.  And they are not having it easy finding something outside the city either, but at least there’s a chance.  For now anyways. 

If it follows the trend of other states, it won’t last. The pandemic took the last vestige of that here when suddenly lots of people could work from anywhere. There is no part of my state where it is now considered affordable to buy a home. There’s just bad and worse.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Frances

[KSera]

On 10/1/2023 at 5:50 PM, bookbard said:

I do think disability is a big part of poverty too. Lots of people with disabilities aren't eligible for the disability allowance, but also can't work. It is a crazy situation. But then our local fb page is full of people whinging about people being on the dole and not working. It's bizarre.

Totally all this. In the US, the amount you can make and still qualify for disability is very low. Not enough to live on in most of the country, but neither is disability alone enough to live on (at least not in places with no section 8 housing available, which is the case many places). So if you’re disabled but with an ability to work a little, you have to decide between working and not making enough to get by or not working and not receiving enough to get by. And then people complain bitterly about people being homeless. I truly don’t know what people are supposed to do. 

On 10/1/2023 at 8:12 PM, SKL said:

A lot of comments about housing crisis.

I guess I'm confused - at least in the US, population growth is pretty slow, so why is there such a huge need for new houses / rental units?  I understand there are migrations, but that doesn't seem to explain most of it.

I think some people have unrealistic expectations.  I think downsizing and/or sharing would be a great idea for many people.  It's nice to see some folks upthread say similar.  Usually when I talk about sharing, people start listing the reasons why it can't work.

Around here, I’m not seeing unrealistic expectations, I’m seeing just plain can’t find anywhere with rent low enough to afford. Forget about buying. Just trying to find a small place to rent is ridiculous. There are people with high incomes who can afford the sky high rents, so they just keep going higher and meanwhile, people making low salaries are struggling with how to live. 

[Frances]

19 minutes ago, KSera said:

Around here, I’m not seeing unrealistic expectations, I’m seeing just plain can’t find anywhere with rent low enough to afford. Forget about buying. Just trying to find a small place to rent is ridiculous. There are people with high incomes who can afford the sky high rents, so they just keep going higher and meanwhile, people making low salaries are struggling with how to live. 

And the suggestion about downsizing doesn’t really work because the people who need to downsize in order to free up housing aren’t the ones struggling with affordability. Sure, I can look all around me and see single elderly people living alone in ginormous homes. But for all sorts of reasons they aren’t selling and moving or taking on housemates or renters. If my husband goes first, I can’t imagine I will be one of them. I think a simple senior apartment like my mom’s is very appealing for lots of reasons. But I don’t see my spouse making the same decision if I go first.

[frogger]

6 hours ago, Frances said:

Yes. My state is hugely affected by both second homeowners and sort term rentals (VRBO, AirBnb) due to having so much natural beauty plus desirable major cities.

We’ve also lost significant housing, especially low income housing, to natural disasters.

Demographics are also very important here. We have a demographic bulge of those in the family formation years and a limited supply of houses for them to purchase. This is coupled with lots of retirees owning one or more homes and staying in them longer.

Also, the construction industry here has never completely recovered from the Great Recession. We are still building fewer homes per year than we did prior to the housing crash despite significant increases in population.

I didn't even think about natural disasters. 

 

 

You mentioned renting but in my city rental prices jumped 14% in 2021. Not sure what the 2022 increase was exactly since I don't have an article at my finger tips but I do know it continued to go up.

 

There are people with funds for housing and the homes just don't exist. Private contractors and the city in one place have converted 3 hotels into low income housing. Which tells me tourists are renting homes or private rooms since there is not a shortage of hotel rooms.

Edited October 4, 2023 by frogger

[Murphy101]

5 hours ago, Frances said:

If it follows the trend of other states, it won’t last. The pandemic took the last vestige of that here when suddenly lots of people could work from anywhere. There is no part of my state where it is now considered affordable to buy a home. There’s just bad and worse.

I keep circling back to pondering that who could’ve guessed the apocalypse would be so slow and expensive.

30 minutes ago, Frances said:

And the suggestion about downsizing doesn’t really work because the people who need to downsize in order to free up housing aren’t the ones struggling with affordability. Sure, I can look all around me and see single elderly people living alone in ginormous homes. But for all sorts of reasons they aren’t selling and moving or taking on housemates or renters. If my husband goes first, I can’t imagine I will be one of them. I think a simple senior apartment like my mom’s is very appealing for lots of reasons. But I don’t see my spouse making the same decision if I go first.

I actually don’t care if some old couple doesn’t want to move out of their house or not.  Frankly, my house has been and probably will continue to be a haven (even if of last resort) for many young adults. My policy has always been that they can move home for 6 months rent free. And best deal ever after that.  6 months without rent and working is a lot of money towards a car or moving elsewhere. Long term, very small amount gives us a bit more breathing space financially and they can still save quite a bit.

The cost of even “cheap” senior living places of any kind at all is still astronomical to me. Even at todays prices, selling my house would not buy me more than a 1-3 years tops in one that doesn’t even offer any low level short staffed assisted living.

Old people have well-founded trust issues with renting out rooms too. When it goes well - it’s fabulous. But daaang. When it does not go well it’s a hellscape to deal with even you aren’t old and tired of dealing with jerk humans for 65+ years. 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I keep circling back to pondering that who could’ve guessed the apocalypse would be so slow and expensive.

I actually don’t care if some old couple doesn’t want to move out of their house or not.  Frankly, my house has been and probably will continue to be a haven (even if of last resort) for many young adults. My policy has always been that they can move home for 6 months rent free. And best deal ever after that.  6 months without rent and working is a lot of money towards a car or moving elsewhere. Long term, very small amount gives us a bit more breathing space financially and they can still save quite a bit.

The cost of even “cheap” senior living places of any kind at all is still astronomical to me. Even at todays prices, selling my house would not buy me more than a 1-3 years tops in one that doesn’t even offer any low level short staffed assisted living.

Old people have well-founded trust issues with renting out rooms too. When it goes well - it’s fabulous. But daaang. When it does not go well it’s a hellscape to deal with even you aren’t old and tired of dealing with jerk humans for 65+ years. 

I wasn’t the one advocating for downsizing, that was @SKL. I was merely responding to her suggestion.
 

The type of senior apartment my mom is living in is independent senior living, not assisted living or a nursing home, although those options are available in the same complex. At least for her in the rural Midwest, it’s less expensive for her to live in a one bedroom senior apartment in a quite nice facility in a small city than it was to continue to maintain a paid for house and car in a small, rural town. The nice thing about her complex is that there is a very wide range of incomes living there, from people in simple studio apartments all the way up to three bedrooms plus sunroom with all flooring and appliances replaced by renters at their cost to higher end items. But they all have access to the same free or low cost social and enrichment activities and are not required to have any sort of meal plan. She lives there primarily on her SS income and has long term care insurance that will kick in if she needs to move to assisted living or a nursing home.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Frances

[frogger]

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

.  Now a lot of homeowners are mad as hornets because they are getting rezoned into less good schools because adding an elementary school requires redrawing boundary lines.  You can bet they will fight like hell against any more apartments being built.

Imagine fighting like hell to keep people homeless rather than simply fighting to make your new schools better but I am not surprised. 

[Laura Corin]

10 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

 

My hometown really struggled for many years after several apartments were built in a good school zone.  The town wasn't forward-thinking, as per usual, and didn't consider that the apartments would mean more kids enrolled in the school.  The district was overwhelmed for about 5 years before it decided to build a new school, then the school took 2-3 years to build and is finally about to open.  Now a lot of homeowners are mad as hornets because they are getting rezoned into less good schools because adding an elementary school requires redrawing boundary lines.  You can bet they will fight like hell against any more apartments being built.

When people are worried about a less-good school, is it because the enrolment is more socially deprived or is it lacking funds? Would a different funding scheme help?

[Frances]

17 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

When people are worried about a less-good school, is it because the enrolment is more socially deprived or is it lacking funds? Would a different funding scheme help?

It varies by state. In my state, schools with needier students actually receive more funding and we are not so reliant on property taxes to fund schools as in most states, where they can be a pretty big discrepancy in school funding. While there is not always a direct relationship here between the socioeconomic status of the students at a particular school and the perceived or actual quality of the school, there is often a strong relationship. Even within large school districts like mine where the Title I schools and those with a large number of ESL students receive more funding, it unfortunately doesn’t seem to make a very big difference when it comes to achievement and outcomes. It likely helps stop discrepancies from being worse, but doesn’t seem to do a whole lot to decrease them.

Now in most other states in the US, property taxes play a much greater role in school funding, so you can have some pretty shocking discrepancies in facilities and programs not just achievement and outcomes within the same state. I have to say that before moving to my state many years ago, I truly believed equalizing funding was the key. But my state shows that even extra funding is not the solution. Unfortunately, my state is not generally known for having excellent public schools.

[Frances]

5 hours ago, frogger said:

I didn't even think about natural disasters. 

 

 

You mentioned renting but in my city rental prices jumped 14% in 2021. Not sure what the 2022 increase was exactly since I don't have an article at my finger tips but I do know it continued to go up.

In some states, like mine, rents have actually decreased in the last year and they never remotely increased as much as housing prices. The state also implemented a cap on rental increases in 2019, before the pandemic. Some more rural places here saw housing prices almost double, as people who were priced out of the cities and could now work from home moved to where they could afford to buy. Many also suddenly wanted land during the pandemic.

[Ausmumof3]

12 hours ago, Frances said:

And the suggestion about downsizing doesn’t really work because the people who need to downsize in order to free up housing aren’t the ones struggling with affordability. Sure, I can look all around me and see single elderly people living alone in ginormous homes. But for all sorts of reasons they aren’t selling and moving or taking on housemates or renters. If my husband goes first, I can’t imagine I will be one of them. I think a simple senior apartment like my mom’s is very appealing for lots of reasons. But I don’t see my spouse making the same decision if I go first.

And there are legitimate reasons for it often. Like my husbands nanna has managed to stay home with her daughter who has Down syndrome with some support well into her nineties. In some ways the house is far too big for them but because everything is set up in a way they’re used to navigating they can manage better there than moving somewhere unfamiliar even if it was smaller and more convenient in other ways.

[Heartstrings]

7 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

When people are worried about a less-good school, is it because the enrolment is more socially deprived or is it lacking funds? Would a different funding scheme help?

They're all in the same district and are funded pretty equally. They are both good schools honestly but one is perceived as being less good.  It's an older building, it also houses the alternative elementary school kids, and all of the ESL kids, which are consolidated in order to offer better services.  That makes it more diverse than the other elementary schools and also means it has slightly worse test scores if you only look at the top-line numbers.  If you look into the details the non ESL kids are doing just as well at both schools.  It's hard to beat ingrained perceptions with silly things like facts though.  

 

Its a top 10 in the state district, all of the schools are good and well funded.   Not obnoxiously so, there are no Olympic pools or astronomy towers.  And of course, Special Ed never has enough money.  But as far as school funding in this state goes, it's really good.  

Edited October 4, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

When people are worried about a less-good school, is it because the enrolment is more socially deprived or is it lacking funds? Would a different funding scheme help?

Speaking ONLY for what happened in my district, the main vibe was that people were unhappy with the different demographics when our high school split in two.

One is 32% white and the other is 55% white now, but they were even less diverse when it initially happened.

Funding is, to my understanding, the same mills (or how ever that term is written) for the entire district, but we’re not very economically segregated, so I don’t know how different it might be in reality. Most neighborhoods are cabins and McMansions sprinkled around with the rest of the spectrum.

[SKL]

14 hours ago, Frances said:

I wasn’t the one advocating for downsizing, that was @SKL. I was merely responding to her suggestion.

To clarify, I meant that some people who are moving / looking for a new place could stand to downsize by getting rid of crap and a sense of entitlement, so that they could consider a less expensive range of housing options.  I didn't mean people with no reason to move need to sell out and move.  That would mostly only benefit realtors.

What I've seen over my adult life is people feeling like they need bigger and bigger and bigger.  I like free space as much as anyone, but the typical amount of space middle class Americans expect is not a need.

I don't have my finger on the pulse of housing prices in my area, because I don't ever intend to move again if I can help it.  I do know that the prices published online are usually BS.  It makes more sense to look at what other nearby houses have sold for very recently.

I have a friend who's had a nice house on the market for quite a while.  Also we just bought a fixer-upper in an amazing location, which was sold at a sheriff's sale about a year ago.  So I don't know but I think there is housing available to buy here.  But, I don't think we're a hot tourist location.

[Frances]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

To clarify, I meant that some people who are moving / looking for a new place could stand to downsize by getting rid of crap and a sense of entitlement, so that they could consider a less expensive range of housing options.  I didn't mean people with no reason to move need to sell out and move.  That would mostly only benefit realtors.

What I've seen over my adult life is people feeling like they need bigger and bigger and bigger.  I like free space as much as anyone, but the typical amount of space middle class Americans expect is not a need.

I have a friend who's had a nice house on the market for quite a while.  Also we just bought a fixer-upper in an amazing location, which was sold at a sheriff's sale about a year ago.  So I don't know but I think there is housing available to buy here.  But, I don't think we're a hot tourist location.

But these aren’t the people struggling with affordability when looking to purchase a home, it’s mainly first time home buyers. In fact, it’s partially because people aren’t selling and moving up to something larger that the supply of starter homes is so limited, decreasing affordability for those not yet in the market. But many people have very low interest rates right now so they are staying put, even if under other conditions they would have moved up.

I’ve personally seen never had a desire to move to something bigger and better, but it’s one of the things that under more normal housing market conditions keeps a steady supply of homes available and benefits those struggling to become homeowners.

 

[fairfarmhand]

The housing issues I'm noticing here are not in the large houses with lots of goodies. It's the smaller homes. The homes that are older with fewer bells and whistles. You can find loads of 2500-3000 square foot houses. But finding a 1000-1200 square foot starter home is practically impossible. It's not the people with the money to buy the big houses who are struggling with houses. There's an adequate supply for them.

The problems in our area aren't because of a sense of entitlement and people wanting to buy a bigger house. 

[Carrie12345]

I had a brief interaction with a local United Way person this morning. Affordable housing is considered the greatest need. Poverty and ALICE wages are calculated with housing in the $6-800 range. There is no real housing here under 4 digits, most starting at best at $1500, so I can’t imagine how that works. 37% of our households fall in those ranges. If they’re housed, they have to be lacking in other essentials. (He gave me an info folder, lol.)