Circe’s bad treatment of Cindy Rollins

[staceyobu]

I’ve read on Facebook about Circe refusing to update links in the latest printing of a Cindy Rollins’ book. 
 

Explain Circe to me in general. They only publish a single writing program (that we used one year and I thought was the worst homeschooling purchase I’ve ever made). They host very expensive zoom calls for people wanting to classically homeschool. They host very expensive apprenticeships. What is their claim to fame that makes people want to pay them for training? I just don’t get it? 

[Malam]

I guess they're seen as an authority in the classical education space?

[staceyobu]

2 hours ago, Malam said:

I guess they're seen as an authority in the classical education space?

But, why??? How did they earn that spot? SWB gained it through publication of a popular homeschooling how to book. Memoria Press and Classical Academic Press and veritas press all have full curriculum lines. 

[freesia]

4 minutes ago, staceyobu said:

But, why??? How did they earn that spot? SWB gained it through publication of a popular homeschooling how to book. Memoria Press and Classical Academic Press and veritas press all have full curriculum lines. 

Andrew kern was a speaker on the homeschool conference circuit. Conferences were very big until the last 5-10 years. I think you can search for the epic Circe thread from years ago. It was wonderful. Kern taught a deeper way of thinking about books than what was common at the time. He is a deep thinker and speaker. He has a podcast if you are interested. 

[Tobirma]

Why was there a falling out between Circe & CR?

[GoodnightMoogle]

7 hours ago, freesia said:

Andrew kern was a speaker on the homeschool conference circuit. Conferences were very big until the last 5-10 years. I think you can search for the epic Circe thread from years ago. It was wonderful. Kern taught a deeper way of thinking about books than what was common at the time. He is a deep thinker and speaker. He has a podcast if you are interested. 

Did he? I read that thread a few years ago, and while I remember a lot of people here having wonderful and deep conversations, I seem to remember a lot of people asking him questions that went unanswered, and he kinda disappeared from the board. 

I can’t speak to the truth of their treatment of Cindy Rollins, but I do know that I find their brand of homeschooling to be a bit pretentious. Back when I was very into the idea of classical education I got…vibes. Like, rah rah, homeschool moms, you’re amazing!! *whispers* But can you really teach your older children, especially your sons? Let us men and our amazing curriculum do that job for you. 

I have no source of Kern saying anything like that! Again, it was just vibes. I get the feeling they really promote small private schools as the ideal, with homeschooling a nice little thing for those less advantaged folk. 
 

Maybe I just need to *cultivate* more wisdom and virtue 😊

[bookbard]

 

4 minutes ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

*whispers* But can you really teach your older children, especially your sons?

I don't know any of these people, not being American or religious, but I have definitely come across male commentators who are very dismissive of homeschooling because it's done by mothers (not that that's always true irl, of course). Jordan Peterson comes to mind (add one more reason I dislike that person), but there are others who are quite threatened by education being in the hands of women. Which is ridiculous on so many levels - for one thing, most school teachers are female, and of course childcare is considered 'women's work' . . .

[8filltheheart]

6 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

Did he? I read that thread a few years ago, and while I remember a lot of people here having wonderful and deep conversations, I seem to remember a lot of people asking him questions that went unanswered, and he kinda disappeared from the board. 

I can’t speak to the truth of their treatment of Cindy Rollins, but I do know that I find their brand of homeschooling to be a bit pretentious. Back when I was very into the idea of classical education I got…vibes. Like, rah rah, homeschool moms, you’re amazing!! *whispers* But can you really teach your older children, especially your sons? Let us men and our amazing curriculum do that job for you. 

I have no source of Kern saying anything like that! Again, it was just vibes. I get the feeling they really promote small private schools as the ideal, with homeschooling a nice little thing for those less advantaged folk. 
 

Maybe I just need to *cultivate* more wisdom and virtue 😊

Let's be completely honest.  The bolded is true of almost every single homeschool provider these days.  All of them provide classes.  The homeschool market today is flooded with the whys of why you can't do this yourself and why you need to spend your $$ to get them to do it better than you can. 

ETA:  I don't know anything about Circe and Cindy Rollins, so no comment there.  I simply avoid all providers that prey on the insecurities of homeschooling parents (which from my perspective is the vast majority of them.)  I miss the days where we affirmed parents that they can teach their kids successfully, but I am a lone voice in the wind.  😉

Edited April 14, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[cbollin]

42 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

  I miss the days where we affirmed parents that they can teach their kids successfully, but I am a lone voice in the wind.  😉

That part made me login to agree about missing that aspect.  Even the stuff I used back in the day now has an expensive option with some online school that has accreditation because parents don't really want to do the work and no one really thinks homeschoolers get into college or get a job, or know what they want to do. sigh.  oops. the oven timer sounded, time to check the banana bread...  guess it is kinda symbolic of stick a fork in it, our style is done.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I wonder if the economy plays any part.  I compare my homeschooling to how my mother homeschooled, but they were a one income family and my mother had time to pour into homeschooling.  I work and don’t have as much time, so I use more outsourcing.

There’s so much mansplaining and condenscendion in certain homeschooling arenas. I just avoid them.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There are so many sources out there - including other sources for Cindy Rollins book.  Unless you (hypothetical general you) put undue importance on their recommendations, I don't see what the problem is? 

[Jean in Newcastle]

This thread explains the actual situation instead of just vague innuendo of bad treatment. 

[GoodnightMoogle]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

This thread explains the actual situation instead of just vague innuendo of bad treatment. 

A couple years ago on her Facebook page she had a thread about how she was not properly paid by them too, I believe. That’s sort of what started the whole thing. I didn’t know about this link situation though until you posted this. 

[Clarita]

Andrew Kern is a very lofty writer. I've read other writers in this style and every time I do kind of wish a little I could be so eloquent and "know their secret", but ultimately my analytical self gets really confused trying to parse out what they are saying.

 

[Nichola]

21 hours ago, Clarita said:

Andrew Kern is a very lofty writer. I've read other writers in this style and every time I do kind of wish a little I could be so eloquent and "know their secret", but ultimately my analytical self gets really confused trying to parse out what they are saying.

 

To be very honest—and I apologize if I come on too strong here, but sometimes it’s hard to judge how direct to be online—I think his lofty words are just that—lofty words. You shouldn’t feel bad for not understanding them. Whatever substance I’ve found in what he says has been when he’s quoting someone else, although he doesn’t always say when he’s doing that. In reading some of those old threads, I recognized a lot of ideas from Norms and Nobility in his responses. His more original responses seemed rather fluffy to me.

ETA: My real issue with Andrew Kern isn’t that he’s using other people’s ideas because we all do that. That’s how we grow as humans (although it’s nice to acknowledge our sources when possible). It’s that he’s taking these ideas and making them harder to understand with his flowery language. A good teacher should explain challenging ideas so that they seem easier (though not dumbed down) and more attainable—not cause students to question their intelligence. To me (and people can disagree, of course) I think he benefits from making these ideas seem harder than they are because it capitalizes on homeschool moms’ self-doubts and convinces them to buy his stuff. It isn’t just him though. Many other curriculum companies do this too.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Nichola

[knitgrl]

I spoke to him for a few minutes at a homeschool convention some years ago. I found his demeanor to be on the smug side. Earlier in the day, I had attended his workshop, and had listened to a conversation between  two women who had no idea there was anything in the homeschool world (and one had said she'd been doing it for 6 years) other than CC. Me, I was shocked. But I suppose smugness might also be another possible response, though certainly uncharitable, to that sort of thing.

[Malam]

2 hours ago, knitgrl said:

CC

Classical Conversations?

[knitgrl]

16 minutes ago, Malam said:

Classical Conversations?

Yes.