I could use some support

[Kanin]

15 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

With DH, it's less that his mom had a dominant personality as that her uncontrolled anxiety made her a traumatic parent for a gifted, sensitive, anxious kid. She never listened to what he wanted. If she was anxious about something (and there were a LOT of things she was anxious about), his needs didn't matter at all. She would make up self-soothing stories wishing away any troubles he had. Even now, it's impossible to talk to her about anything he had trouble with. (For example, he had a really hard time at school, and if you listen to her stories, he loved school and everything was great. She just can't accept when stuff is wrong. There's pervasive gaslighting as a result.) 

I posted a while back about someone whose mother forced them to eat stuff they didn't like. I'm sure some of you figured it out, but that was about DH. Except everything in his life was like that. 

Hmm. You make me think about my own gifted DH. His mother wasn't anxious as far as I know, but there was untreated mental illness (still is). He sees her once per year and never talks in between visits. When we visit, everyone (the WHOLE family - ugh!!!) pretends like everything is fine. That's why we only do one superficial visit per year. I certainly treat her like a bomb that could go off at any minute. We don't have any sort of real relationship.

I definitely wonder what it's done to his psyche. 

I'm sorry your DH went through that. Does he speak to his mother frequently?

[saraha]

On 3/9/2023 at 2:36 AM, Ausmumof3 said:

We had what I think was possibly a somewhat similar dynamic. DHs mum and older sister both have quite dominant personalities. When we got married some of that resentment about always having to do what they wanted got transferred to me, as well as a bit of an expectation that I would be his conscience. It’s also somewhat common in our culture I think due to their being so many stay at home mums and people marrying young. I still have to be mindful of not finding myself in that mother/sister type role.

Not the OP obviously, but this stopped me in my tracks when I read it.

Thank you

[FreyaO]

I hope this doesn't come through the wrong way and please feel free to ignore if not helpful.

But....  I hope you are also discussing your wants and needs and the kids' wants and needs with DH, OP. Maybe you do and you don't feel the need to share or are uncomfortable to discuss here - which is perfectly fine. I understand that his issues may be central to the situation, but there is a point where these accommodations become unhealthy on their own.

I was trying to help an adult in my life with mother issues for a long time. In the end, the biggest help was to trust them and take a step back. I still offer my help, but I don't see it as my own responsibility and burden. I know you've posted about your own realizations of how limited our control over others is. These thoughts seem a bit discordant with how you describe your latest interactions with DH. 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

I can really sympathize with your Dh's past.  My parents had uncontrolled anxiety, and my mom lashed out a lot when she ever felt under attack.  I was also a gifted, sensitive child who had a rough time in school, but if I ever mention how I struggled she would take it personally and get upset with me for saying it.  Her moods were something we had to be aware of, and we had to mollify her, apologize for things we supposedly had done, etc.  (she's changed a lot and we have a good relationship, but the core issues will always be there, and she lashes out still under any time of stress).  

My husband is a pretty dominant personality -- we've been together (dating and married) for 31 years now.  It's taken a LONG time for me to get better at voicing contrary opinions, for being able to advocate for what I believe, and to not immediately try to apologize just to "fix" a situation.  I still work very hard any time the energy in our family is off, trying to smooth out edges, to cordon off the bad energy, or to head off my husband's irritableness.  We both have slowly changed.  It takes a long time to really shift one's ingrained habit patterns.  And he probably doesn't even know it's happened, he probably thinks he's just mellowed with age:)  I have asserted my opinions more, and "mollified" less over a long period of time.  

 

[Not_a_Number]

7 hours ago, FreyaO said:

I hope this doesn't come through the wrong way and please feel free to ignore if not helpful.

But....  I hope you are also discussing your wants and needs and the kids' wants and needs with DH, OP. 

Not unhelpful at all. Thank you for your concern. 

We're talking a lot about my needs and the kids' needs. He's not able to deal with a lot of my emotional needs right now, though. He's stuck in a dynamic of promising stuff he can't deliver because it feels RIGHT to him to do so. He needs more space to untangle that. 

He's very present in the kids' lives. He takes them to stuff, picks them up from stuff, plays with them, listens to them, has valuable talks with them. In some ways, he's a great dad -- engaged, very present. In other ways, he's not at all -- he can't manage discipline or structure and until this year, he was never anything like on my team.  

He's a good guy in a lot of ways. But he also has a lot of disabling damage. I had no idea how much until recently. It's been a lot to grapple with. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

On 3/10/2023 at 2:25 PM, SanDiegoMom said:

I was also a gifted, sensitive child who had a rough time in school, but if I ever mention how I struggled she would take it personally and get upset with me for saying it.  Her moods were something we had to be aware of, and we had to mollify her, apologize for things we supposedly had done, etc.  (she's changed a lot and we have a good relationship, but the core issues will always be there, and she lashes out still under any time of stress).  

I can be like this on my bad days right now. It's embarrassing. I've been so unstable for the past few years, what with the pandemic and the intense marital tension. 

(I also apologize and tell them they aren't responsible for my feelings. I'm not like this all the time. But I recognize myself in some of that description.)

DH's mother is worse, though. She doesn't get upset. She just has a gaslighting forcefield. You talk about it, she swats it away like it wasn't even there. She's gotten both of her kids to pretend everything is always peachy keen. She talks up anything she's anxious about so that you can't even act like there's a problem. So, anxiety in the family? Nope. My SIL's husband doesn't help enough? No, no, it's all great. DH had trouble at school? No, no, he loved it. She doesn't get upset. It doesn't get through. 

[Edited for privacy.]

The sad thing is I got that from the start. I asked him if he'd had issues with his mom, because I could see she was overbearing and anxious and didn't listen at all and imposed her idea of what he needed on him instead of listening. and he would assure me he didn't. He blew me off because the idea of complaining about his family simply wasn't conceivable given his mother's forcefield. 

I've seen a good quote about this from Irvin Yalom... this isn't it, but same idea: 

“I explain to my patients that abused children often find it hard to disentangle themselves from their dysfunctional families, whereas children grow away from good, loving parents with far less conflict. After all, isn't that the task of a good parent, to enable the child to leave home?”

Edited March 12, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

11 hours ago, Kanin said:

I'm sorry your DH went through that. Does he speak to his mother frequently?

Unfortunately. That's frankly the problem. That he never escaped her orbit. 

She's a warm woman as well as a really anxious and emotionally traumatizing one. I think the combination can be hard because the warmth keeps her kids around even though she's bad for them. It's easier when people are just unpleasant. 

[Shoeless]

I feel like this is a somewhat common dynamic because it's very similar to what life is like in my family of origin. 

My grandmother was very anxious. I don't think there was a lot of room in her kids' lives for anything besides soothing her anxiety. 

My people are warm, friendly, anxious, and traumatizing, too. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Shoeless said:

I feel like this is a somewhat common dynamic because it's very similar to what life is like in my family of origin. 

My grandmother was very anxious. I don't think there was a lot of room in her kids' lives for anything besides soothing her anxiety. 

My people are warm, friendly, anxious, and traumatizing, too. 

 

I think you’re probably right.

My own family is full of much more blatant chaos. So I couldn’t see that DH’s could in fact be WORSE until recently.

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think you’re probably right.

My own family is full of much more blatant chaos. So I couldn’t see that DH’s could in fact be WORSE until recently.

The blatant chaos is easier to cut off, (at least, it seems that way to me).  It's really hard to walk away when people are likeable and nice, but also just...a lot to deal with. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, Shoeless said:

The blatant chaos is easier to cut off, (at least, it seems that way to me).  It's really hard to walk away when people are likeable and nice, but also just...a lot to deal with. 

Yeah. I think it’s worse than “a lot to deal with,” though. I think people like that can keep you trapped in old, dysfunctional patterns. I know that it made a huge difference for me when I didn’t talk to my mom for half a year… we did start talking again, but it changed something inside me.

[Not_a_Number]

We had a cruddy day yesterday. But I've noticed recently that sometimes, the cruddy days are portals... they are a sign that something's not working and that we need to move forward. 

We've been trying to figure out our schedule with the kids ever since he moved out, which was 2 months ago to the day. It's complicated, because I work part-time as a tutor, he's a professor and thus has a flexible schedule, the kids have LOTS of activities all around NYC, he's an engaged dad, and this is EXACTLY the kind of task he tends to farm out to me and then be resentful of the result later because it doesn't met his needs. 

I knew I wasn't going to be making a unilateral schedule, because having a foundation of resentment was not going to be the right thing psychologically for this time. I told him I needed input from him. And then I waited. 

After waiting a few days, I started poking him about making a schedule... or at least sending me suggestions. He procrastinated it, I think out of anxiety. 

Eventually, we had a fight about it, and he sent me a schedule that was patently ludicrous (with not enough time for him.) 

I realized that he literally had NO IDEA how to do this. Not just make a schedule, I could have helped with that, but even just thinking about what he needs to be happy. His life hasn't trained him for that. 

I told him we were going to go day by day for the schedule -- we had been, already, of course, we had no choice, but now it'd be a choice. And that I'd leave it to him to decide, although he was certainly allowed to ask me questions... because I knew that he had a tendency to let me have my way whenever I voiced preferences, and I didn't want to be heading to this resentment-filled minefield. 

We did that for a few weeks. Eventually, we settled on a weekday schedule that felt good to both of us. That felt like a victory. 

For the last few weeks, we've been trying to figure out weekends. Weekends are harder, because there's no schoolwork and he has more freedom (and he sees them more) -- that means there's no structure to latch onto at all. So we kind of did the same dance with the weekends, where for a good while he didn't even TRY to make them comfortable for himself, then he tried and was embarrassed to realize that the things he normally does don't feel good at all (I could have told him that, but people have to figure things out for themselves.) And then eventually we had a few fights, but... 

... I think we have the weekends figured out! Yay! 

So that means we both can take more space, because we don't have to constantly communicate about the schedule. Which is great. We both really, really need the space. The constant negotiating was wearing us both down. (And yet there wasn't any way around it that I could think of.) 

Now for the next step... making the best of the break. But for now, I'm just pleased and relieved we figured this out. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

Gosh. And now the reality of taking a break is kind of hitting me. I'm going to have to cope without much support. It's a lot. 

I suddenly got flooded with anxiety 😕 . Now to figure out a way to deal with the anxiety without trying to lash out or lean on other people more than they can bear . . . 

[Not_a_Number]

Yeah. My ability to predict how things are going to go is... low right now. Apparently, there are more conversations to be had. And we need to tweak the weekend a bit. 

Things feel like they're moving forward, though. And that's all I can ask for. 

[Clarita]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:32 PM, Not_a_Number said:

Now to figure out a way to deal with the anxiety without trying to lash out or lean on other people more than they can bear . . . 

Don't try to figure out if a friend can handle your lean. Just lean.

[Melissa Louise]

26 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Don't try to figure out if a friend can handle your lean. Just lean.

I do something in-between this.

I don't try to figure it out - I can't mind read.

I do ask before leaning. 

'Do you have time/energy for X?'

Then you know, and can respond accordingly - either get the support you asked for, try another friend, or use a non-friend strategy to manage stress/emotion.

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just leaning doesn't work for me. I'm prone to leaning too much -- something I know about myself. So for me, reckoning with my dysfunctional patterns means being mindful about the amount of lean. 

[Not_a_Number]

Something positive: for the last couple of years, I've kept a spreadsheet detailing how things are going. Originally, I started this when I felt like our homeschooling had too much conflict, to see how much there really was (there was too much, and it was useful to see it), and over time, I've added a space for how the day has gone with the kids overall, and most recently, I added a space for how things are with DH. 

Anyway, the last week has been the most peaceful period since he's left the house 🙂 . And generally, I'm seeing the amount of green (which indicates that things went well) increase as time goes on. 

And that's concurrently with us getting into harder, deeper topics related to our dysfunction. So it's not a result of disengagement or avoidance. 

Anyway, I feel pleased! 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Jaybee]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Something positive: for the last couple of years, I've kept a spreadsheet detailing how things are going. Originally, I started this when I felt like our homeschooling had too much conflict, to see how much there really was (there was too much, and it was useful to see it), and over time, I've added a space for how the day has gone with the kids overall, and most recently, I added a space for how things are with DH. 

Anyway, the last week has been the most peaceful period since he's left the house 🙂 . And generally, I'm seeing the amount of green (which indicates that things went well) increase as time goes on. 

And that's concurrently with us getting into harder, deeper topics related to our dysfunction. So it's not a result of disengagement or avoidance. 

Anyway, I feel pleased! 

This is quite exciting and encouraging, @Not_a_Number! I hope for you more and more green as time goes on, and that a time will come when you have both done the hard work and it becomes much easier and more natural for you both. 

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, Jaybee said:

This is quite exciting and encouraging, @Not_a_Number! I hope for you more and more green as time goes on, and that a time will come when you have both done the hard work and it becomes much easier and more natural for you both. 

Thank you. I'm hoping for that, too. 

Although at this point, I don't know that I want to count on "easy" and "natural." Sometimes things stay hard and that's OK, as long as you're doing the right stuff. 

[Not_a_Number]

And this morning is yet another mood. I've gotten tired of the swings, goodness. 

I feel kind of... lonely, I think. I don't know. Needy, anyway.

[Not_a_Number]

Yeah. Maybe it's time to think about reaching out to people more. I've checked off quite a few things on my list of things to do already. Just a few more doctor's appointments and a bit more paperwork to do, and a few more things to buy, and a few more routines to start, and I might really want to work on my friendships as the next pressing thing. 

It feels weird to have this long list of things to do, some of which include explicitly building relationships. But it's almost certainly the right thing. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah. Maybe it's time to think about reaching out to people more. I've checked off quite a few things on my list of things to do already. Just a few more doctor's appointments and a bit more paperwork to do, and a few more things to buy, and a few more routines to start, and I might really want to work on my friendships as the next pressing thing. 

It feels weird to have this long list of things to do, some of which include explicitly building relationships. But it's almost certainly the right thing. 

Friendships have saved me over the years.  

[Not_a_Number]

Yeah. 

I wish I had better local friends. Lots of people who are more in the category of friendly acquaintances, no one I'm tight with. Between moving here 5 years ago and the pandemic, it just hasn't happened yet. 

I don't get tight with people all that easily, frankly. But I do have some good friends I've been meaning to keep in better touch with that aren't local. They both said they'd be interested, too. 

Of course, I'm an introvert, so half the time, when the time comes to actually, like, talk, I don't feel like it 😛 . But it does do me good. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Lecka]

It’s okay to feel needy.  It’s not a bad thing.  

[Lecka]

I have this issue too, and I feel like a lot of it is feeling like “I” am not very important unless I’m providing some value (by being competent, taking care of something, etc).  
 

There was a lot of issue with other stressful things going on in my childhood, I was supposed to just manage on my own and not cause any problems, I was not a family member “allowed” to have problems for a lot of my childhood.  

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Lecka said:

It’s okay to feel needy.  It’s not a bad thing.  

It's like all feelings, you know? The feeling's OK. If it prompts me to do harm, it's not OK. 

So it's good for me to recognize it for what it is, to name it. 

[Kanin]

29 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It feels weird to have this long list of things to do, some of which include explicitly building relationships. But it's almost certainly the right thing. 

Building friendships is on my list to do, also. 

[Scarlett]

19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah. 

I wish I had better local friends. Lots of people who are more in the category of friendly acquaintances, no one I'm tight with. Between moving here 5 years ago and the pandemic, it just hasn't happened yet. 

I don't get tight with people all that easily, frankly. But I do have some good friends I've been meaning to keep in better touch with that aren't local. They both said they'd be interested, too. 

Of course, I'm an introvert, so half the time, when the time comes to actually, like, talk, I don't feel like it 😛 . But it does do me good. 

I live 2 1/2 hours away from my best friend.  But we have stayed like sisters since we were 11.  I know how fortunate I am to have that.  
 

Locally (been here 11 years) I have 3 really close friends.  I do get a little bit of different things from each of them and all of them have their own set of unique needs of me.  One, along with her husband, is living with her 90 year old mother who has severe short term memory loss.  One is an empty nester and has her own horrific chronic health problems.  One has a teen at home and all that goes with that.  
 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Hey, glad I'm not the only one with "building friendships" on my list 🙂  .

Edited March 18, 2023 by Not_a_Number