Worried about my Son's Language Arts

[Lillyfee]

Ok, so my son was the reason why we started homeschooling. He is 11 and in 5th grade.

He could not read at all at the end of 3rd grade. He knew some sight words but that was it. He could not write a sentence and could not spell simple words. 

The school kept telling me he is doing ok. 

I pulled him out after 3rd grade and his reading improved a lot. He sometimes still guesses long difficult words (bad habit) but I would say he reads on a 4th or 5th grade level. He can write simple essays now and can answer questions after reading a story. His spelling is still very bad.

I also want to add that he started talking really late and never had any interest in drawing pictures or learning how to write his name and stuff my 3 girls wanted to learn.

He has a math brain. He is very advanced in math and understands the concepts with minimal explanation. 

He also always got in trouble in public school for not sitting still. He was never a mean child but he interrupted the teacher, hopped up and down on the chair and fell off, went to the bathroom and started playing with the water and just got distracted easy. His last teacher in 3rd grade put him alone in the back and ignored him. The recesses he spent with running laps.

He still loved school.  He is very social and loves his friends and he even liked running laps and told me that this is good to get his energy out. School was just a big party for him.

Now I feel he needs to go back to school for 6th grade. English is my second language and I believe he needs a native speaker now that teaches him. I also love literature and poetry.  The girls love to listen to read alouds and write stories while he wants to make floor plans and build stuff. At school I feel he would have math and science teachers that love their subject and teach him better than I am. Dad is more like him but he needs to work and is also gone a lot.

However,  I am extremely anxious to send him back to school. I am worried he gets in trouble a lot or is not ready in language arts.

Does anybody have experiences with kids they are so good in one subject but really bad in another one? Do you think it is a good idea to send him back to public school?

I don't think we can afford private school in the US. 

Thank you.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Lillyfee

[EKS]

Your son sounds exactly like my older son.  He is gifted and has dyslexia (2E).  You don't necessarily have to send him to school to get him what he needs.  See if you can find a mentor for him.  My son had a robotics mentor when he was your son's age.

 

[Lillyfee]

I like having my kids home but he asks to go back. He is excited for Middle School.

He has such a positive personality and loves everything about school. The social interactions, having lunch there, the teachers etc. 

I am just really worried he isn't ready. He still gets so easy distracted and needs support with writing.  

Also we need  switch school in the middle of the year as we move to another state. I hope it goes smoothly. This will be his forth school now (3 different states). 

I am really on the fence. I just want him to succeed.

[Servant4Christ]

With moving so frequently, I'd be hesitant to enroll him in public school again. A lot can be missed due to different scope and sequences when moving to different school district and even more common when moving to a different state. I moved a lot as a child and though there were some times when I found myself ahead of the class, there were many times when I had to self teach things that my peers already knew. You may be able to find co-ops if he's missing the social aspect or online classes for subjects that you want taught by someone more passionate about the content. Homeschooling allows you the flexibility to find what works for the individual child in a way that public school cannot afford to with 20+ children in a class. Also, no one knows how your children learn best better than you do.

[Lillyfee]

I know. All these moves are hard if you have a child that needs more support in a subject.

His older sister has no trouble at all adjusting. She was in 4 different schools in 3 states, then homeschooled and now back in school and she adjusts very easily and never had bad grades.

His two younger siblings were  homeschooled so far but I believe they would also be fine.

I wonder if he might struggle with ADHD. He is a very bright child otherwise but just couldn't pay attention in school.  As he is naturally good at math it did not affect him but with reading and writing he would have needed to concentrate. 

This is were I think public school would be helpful in supporting me. I am worried that I keep him home and we work along and then he comes into high school with undetected ADHD or dyslexia or something which we should have treated long ago. 

I think I would feel better if some expert would look at him just to tell me if he is lazy and needs me to be strict or if it is not his fault that his brain just wanders off all the time.

[Servant4Christ]

Ah, ok then. I don't know the ins and outs of education where you are but the school district/ state I am in (though they don't want to and certainly won't tell you it's available) is required to do evals and give certain services/ support to homeschoolers. Regs are high here and we are excluded from many things (after school clubs and sports), but that is one area that they cannot skirt if we have reason or cause to believe testing/ evals are warranted. You may be able to look into that in your area or the area you will be moving to. @PeterPan knows so much about evals and testing that it makes my head spin. She could probably tell you which ones to seek out. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Servant4Christ

[Lillyfee]

I really don't know how it is in our state. 

We move from the Midwest to the East Coast and I already heard that they expect a lot more from the kids than here. If you have a child that took Algebra 1 here at school they would not give them any credit for that course for example.

To evaluate him I could just ask the doctor here. She told me I could call whenever I want to have him looked at for ADHD. I was asking about this at his last check up a couple of weeks ago. 

I am worried about that too. I am scared they put him on medication and I wanted to avoid that. I know so many kids here that take medication. I might have the wrong idea about the process but I don't believe that all these kids need medication for concentrating. I know that ADHD exists and that some people really profit from taking meds but I am just very hesitant about this step.

Maybe we need to move this topic to the special needs section....

 

[Servant4Christ]

That's wonderful that your Dr is able to do that. I have the same feeling about meds. I know some dietary changes (avoiding certain triggers) can help. I suspect ADHD or something along those lines with one of mine but have chosen not to do evals at this point. Getting an evaluation doesn't mean you have to choose medication, but it might open doors to certain services within whatever school district you move to that could help you both learn more techniques for helping him focus. I hope others with more experience will chime in and I wish you good luck in finding what works best for your whole family. 

[Clemsondana]

Several thoughts...I'd pursue testing.  You can do it independently or sometimes through the school system.  It may be something common like ADHD or it could be dyslexia or some other hidden learning disability.  If nothing shows up, that's informative, too.  Then I'd make decisions based on that.  Some states have lots of supports and interventions and some don't.  I know of 2 states, for instance, that do nothing to help with dyslexia in schools.  Our state, for instances, does nothing for dyslexia but will do speech therapy for kids whether they are enrolled in public school or homeschooled.  You might also be able to pursue private coaching for any issues that you find.  There are many non-medical things that you can try for ADHD, but if it is enough of a problem to disrupt learning then I'd also consider medication after trying other things. 

Your son could also be dealing with something like frustration tolerance issues, so that he does fine in math, which comes easily, and struggles to focus on something like reading that is challenging for him.  This is a hard problem to help with, but might be something to keep in mind.  

Moving is hard under any circumstances, and especially so with a student who isn't 'average' in most subjects.  If you decide to go back to school, you might think about whether to do it before or after a move.  On the private school issue...private schools are sometimes very accommodating of different needs, but they can also be inflexible just because they lack the resources (staff, number of students) to work with kids at different levels...there's no guarantee that it would be better than public school.  

For social activity, could you find other non-school activities if that is the primary motivation for returning to school?  I'm not anti-school, but if your son is just wanting more kid time perhaps an enrichment co-op, field trip group, recreational sports league, homeschool PE, art, or martial arts class, etc, would help?  I know that locally there are homeschool skate days at the skating rink, several places offering PE, and our martial arts school offers 2 hours of daytime homeschool classes 3 days each week.

Good luck as you try to sort figure out the best away to help your son!  

[PeterPan]

25 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Several thoughts...I'd pursue testing.  You can do it independently or sometimes through the school system. 

Exactly.

4 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

To evaluate him I could just ask the doctor here. She told me I could call whenever I want to have him looked at for ADHD.

When a doctor diagnoses ADHD, they're only telling you whether he might benefit from meds. If you get an evaluation with a PSYCHOLOGIST, you'll get thorough testing for learning disabilities, ADHD, screenings for motor planning and vision issues, etc., and get documentation you can then take to the school to advocate better for him.

He may benefit from a 504 when he goes back to school. The school can also do these evaluations, but doing them privately will sometimes get you more information. In this situation, your best bet is a neuropsychologist or an educational psychologist, someone who will spend 4-6 hours testing. You can ask your doctor for a referral or find one yourself, depending on how your insurance works. Make sure the psychologist is homeschool friendly, as some are not. 

Yes, it's fine to send him back to school. He just needs evals to see what is going on. Given what you described, it's possible he has some language issues as well. The psychologist may be able to screen for them, but you could also consider getting evals with an SLP=speech language pathologist. For that, I suggest looking for someone who specializes in literacy (yes, it's a thing) or expressive language. They will have detailed language testing they can do to see why his spelling and writing are being affected and give you a game plan for what can be done.

Sometimes in school the kids don't have help when they have strengths that balance out their weaknesses. Private evals can give you the information you need to know how to advocate for him in the school. Otherwise you're reliant on what the school says, and they're going to do the bare minimum.

[Lillyfee]

Thank you all for your advice.

My husband is in the Army. So we have Tricare. We always went to the military hospitals but I know that they also refer people to civilian doctors if they need something done they can't at their hospital. I do not know if he would be seen by a military doctor or off post for this issue. I also don't know if I can choose the person that will see him.

I have no idea how they would test him. I think I might make an appointment. I will talk to my husband tonight.

I think sometimes he is just lazy. Today he did a bad job in reading comprehension. So I told him to sit down, take his time and answer the questions again.  He had everything right the second time. 

[Lillyfee]

Right now he is playing every day with his friends as soon as they get out of school until like 8 pm. 

He has a lot of friends in the neighborhood and spends the whole time outside with them going in the woods building a tree house, playing football on a field or playing with Nerf guns in the neighborhood. Basically I let him run wild in the afternoon. I can trust him a 100 % there.

We have sleepovers with several friends almost every weekend.

He also goes to Sunday school.

He definitely has a lot social interaction right now.

I am worried when we move though.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Lillyfee

[PeterPan]

12 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

I think sometimes he is just lazy.

That's a pretty common thing for a parent to say when there's ADHD going on. 

13 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

So I told him to sit down, take his time and answer the questions again.  He had everything right the second time. 

ADHD usually involves issues with dopamine levels (brain chemistry) and Executive Function (the part of the brain that organizes). If you have a vision problem, you'd put on glasses. If your dopamine levels are low and you take a med that raises them, it's the same thing. You wouldn't tell a person with vision problems to SQUINT and try harder, but you want to do that to a person with low dopamine? Now there are several types of ADHD and not all have low dopamine. However his probably is and that's why the meds would work, by raising the dopamine (or norepinephrine or whatever in his case is affected). Like putting on glasses, meds can make the world finally become clear.

17 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

I have no idea how they would test him.

An MD will usually have the parents fill out EF (executive function) screening questionaires as well as possibly questionaires for depression, anxiety, etc., Then they will typically do a sustained attention test, something computerized. A psychologist will do all this AND they will do IQ testing, achievement testing, and tests to screen for motor problems, vision problems, learning disabilities, etc. The psychologist is more likely to capture te complete picture of what is going on, where the MD is only asking whether the dc would benefit from meds. The psychologist will generate information that you can use to advocate for him in the school system and doing it privately gives you an unbiased source for that information. Evals through the school will tend to be faster and are biased toward doing the bare minimum they need to do help him access his education.

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

Right now he is playing every day with his friends as soon as they get out of school until like 8 pm. 

Sounds wonderful!!!

8 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

I am worried when we move though.

Moving is hard. My dad was in the Navy so we moved a lot. Kids are resilient and he sounds like he's good at finding ways to keep busy. Think positive. 🙂

[Lillyfee]

Yes, you are probably right. It is hard to understand these issues as you can't see them but they are there.

I could not sit still as a child. My mom always said I was the reason they did not get any more kids after me. I was so much more challenging than my two older siblings. They didn't take me to restaurants, cinemas or anything else where I couldn't run around.

The difference was that I was always good at school. Even though I couldn't sit still, I could get myself together when it mattered.

I really think I should get him tested for these things.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

My mom always said I was the reason they did not get any more kids after me.

That's a lot of burden to have put on you as a child! Sometimes when we get help for our kids we end up working through our own issues too. Fwiw, lots of people have multiple kids with ADHD and they don't blame them for their parenting choices. They might *joke* about it, but adults don't blame their kids for their choices. It sounds like they were older or just flat didn't want more kids. Even challenging kids are a joy and a blessing and worth having.

Do you find yourself not taking your child to restaurants, etc.?  

3 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

The difference was that I was always good at school. Even though I couldn't sit still, I could get myself together when it mattered.

I think you'll find our understanding of ADHD has improved. It's no longer considered a behavioral disorder. If someone is having exceptionally hard to control behavior with their ADHD, there's usually more going on (retained primitive reflexes, APD, ASD, etc.). It's a good reason to begin getting proper evals, not just an MD diagnosis, because they may turn up treatable issues. 

[Lillyfee]

No, we take them to restaurants and I even flew several times alone with them around the half world with a couple of long layovers . Somehow it always works out that I keep all the kids alive and don't lose any .

He is other than his language and concentration issues a very reliable independent child and also talks grammatically correct, has good vocabulary and seems bright. However, he is the only one that has trouble being bilingual. He understands everything in both languages but has trouble speaking it.

Now I felt that ELL at school (a program for kids that have English as a second language) really helped him in Kindergarten and 1st grade. In the new school they did not have an ELL teacher and I feel he missed the small group language support. 

 

 

 

[lmrich]

When is his birthday? Would it make sense to hold him back a year to mature a bit and give you time for testing etc?

[Lillyfee]

He is a November baby and is one of the older ones in grade. He is also pretty tall for his age.

Otherwise I would definitely consider holding him back.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

He understands everything in both languages but has trouble speaking it.

That's stuff the neuropsych can tease out. A lot of times processing speed will be affected with ADHD, and the low processing speed plus some word retrieval issues plus maybe some anxiety (another common comorbidity) can together make it hard to get your thoughts out, especially under pressure. So it's not so much that you do therapy for it (though meds can bump processing speed and working on EF with metronome work can help) but the results of the testing can drive *accommodations*. A 504 is about accommodations. So he may end up qualifying for extended time and you may just on a practical level get some good strategies by getting evals.

There are SLPs who specialize in bilingual children, and you might find it helpful to have an eval done just to be sure you know what's going on. Language is FUNDAMENTAL to all his future school work and his very sense of self and ability to communicate. It's not overkill to make sure you have the right words for what is going on. Language and difficulty getting his thoughts out will become his BIGGEST PROBLEM as he gets older. He'll find ways to wiggle less and burn off his energy, but he'll still need to get his thoughts out.

[PeterPan]

15 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

He is a November baby and is one of the older ones in grade. He is also pretty tall for his age.

Otherwise I would definitely consider holding him back.

Unless there's a developmental delay (like my ds with ASD2) grade retention isn't necessarily evidence based. It can discourage them and actually result in worse outcomes. I say that and I'm preparing to grade retain my son, lol. But he functions 2+ years young, is behind academically, and just plain needs the bloom time. If a child is on grade level and developmentally aware, you're going to have a hard time selling that either to the school or the child. I SO wanted to give my dd (diagnosed ADHD) another year at home for the bloom time, but she was just ready to LAUNCH. 

[Lillyfee]

Yes, especially as he his social skills are great. He plays with kids his age, I can send him out to eat or to have sleepovers with anybody and never get any complaints. He never gets out of control or has anger issues like some other boys his age I know that have trouble at school. He has a lot of empathy. He treats animals with a lot of respect and if people need help he is the first one to see that and offer help. Of course he is not an angel but he is never mean and can handle his feelings well. His older sister and him fight a lot but I think that is normal.

I really do not believe that he has anxiety. It's more the opposite with him. He is very self confident (I feel like it's sometimes too much ) . He also loves to talk to everybody and is not shy at all. 

It is really this trouble we have with his writing and spelling.  He also dislikes reading. He does his assigned work but would never ever pick up a book on his own unless it's a comic or maybe some non fiction about planes.

I hope we can figure out what is best for him.

 

[Green Bean]

That sounds more  like dyslexia or another language based issue than ADHD. If it was true ADHD/ADD, it would manifest across all areas. Also, boys are just plain different than girls in their activeness. I have 5 boys and 1 daughter. My boys were/are mostly go- go- go! all the time. Totally normal.

Get a full eval, as PeterPan says, then figure it out. Putting him in school will not magically help anything. Middle school is THE worst time to put a kid in especially one who is different in any way.

In the meantime, try backing up the LA skills. What are your expectations for an 11 yr old in LA? What have you been using? We can offer more specific ideas with those answers.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Green Bean

[Lillyfee]

First when I got him out of 3rd grade he was not able to spell anything. He did not know that words need vowels. He wrote things like jp for jump. He was not able to write a sentence.  Just fragments and grammatically incorrect, too. I did not understand that as he talks completely normal in grammatically correct sentences.  He was also not able to read. He mainly guessed words. 

I knew he did that but honestly did not grasp this completely until Covid hit and I had him home. He was 8 hours in school every day. I really thought he will learn reading and writing there and if he wouldn't I thought that the teacher would tell me. I felt when he was at school for 8 hours that is more than enough. We kind of worked on reading though.

I bought the whole Abeka language arts for 4th grade when I started homeschooling him in 4th grade. He did good with the grammar and as we worked on reading over the summer he was ok with reading but the spelling lists and writing assignments were way too advanced for him. We still sticked with it through 4th grade. 

Then at the end of 4th grade we started the Good and the Beautiful language arts level 4. The same thing. He can diagram sentences beautifully, understands homophones, has no trouble doing the grammar assignments. His reading is getting better and better.

He is now at level 5 of the Good and the Beautiful.

However, his writing is bad. I need to let him write in short simple sentences as anything more complex will end up in a mess. Right now we write first simple sentences and then we try to combine two or three.

Spelling is a disaster. He has challenging sentences every day and I have my own simple spelling lists. There is no way he would write the sentences correctly. I let him look at them before but he still struggles. Sometimes he forgets the easiest words. The last time he wrote "rite" and looked at me and said "I am so sorry, Mama. I forgot how to write right." However, he can sound out words now and apply simple spelling rules.

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Lillyfee

[JazzyMom]

My 4th son was slower than my others to learn read and was a terrible speller.  He just could not spell.

A friend recommended testing for vision issues.  You have to go to a special developmental optometrist for this, not a regular optometrist.

His actual vision is 20/20, but he had severe issues with tracking, teaming, focusing, and visual processing.

After 20 weeks of vision therapy (1 hr appointment, plus 5 minutes of homework every night), there was a definite improvement.  And after the full 20 week program, there was a complete 180.

He is still a but behind in spelling and writing because he is getting a late start in seeing properly, but he is now progressing normally in these areas.

I would definitely recommend an exam with a developmental optometrist before putting him in school.  Again, this is not a normal eye exam, but a functional vision/visual processing exam.

 

 

[JazzyMom]

Your description right above my posts sounds so much like my son.  He could read and understand grammar, but could not spell.

He finished his vision therapy in November, and it is still a shock to me to read something he has written and see that only 1 word is misspelled.  Previously, almost every word would have been misspelled. 

[Lillyfee]

Wow, that might be a possibility.  

We have an eye doctor's appointment anyways in June because he wears glasses and I am going to ask him about that. I probably need a referral to a specialist then but they are usually very good about that.

Thank you. 

[JazzyMom]

I am not sure if optometrists give referrals for it or not.  I would do a search for a developmental optometrist in your area and make an appointment.  They can do the standard eye exam, as well.

[Lillyfee]

Oh, ok. Then I need to look. 

I thought we need referrals when we go off post but I really don't know.

I need to ask my husband tonight.

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

However, his writing is bad. I need to let him write in short simple sentences as anything more complex will end up in a mess. Right now we write first simple sentences and then we try to combine two or three.

Spelling is a disaster. He has challenging sentences every day and I have my own simple spelling lists. There is no way he would write the sentences correctly. I let him look at them before but he still struggles. Sometimes he forgets the easiest words. The last time he wrote "rite" and looked at me and said "I am so sorry, Mama. I forgot how to write right." However, he can sound out words now and apply simple spelling rules.

If he's working that hard to write (physically), then whatever you're getting out that way is not reflecting his language skills. You're probably seeing multiple things there compound each other. The evals will help you tease this apart. You find a developmental optometrist through COVD, and yes my dd did vision therapy right around that age. She had had trouble spelling and turned out she had the visual memory of a 2 year old! 

But you don't know if the issue is visual processing or phonological processing (dyslexia) or what without evals. Could be BOTH, could be one or the other. Sometimes the developmental optometrist will have the CTOPP (a test of phonological processing) to run that as well. Dyslexia is not a vision problem, so you want to make sure you're screening for BOTH. 

[Lillyfee]

Thank you all so much.

I messaged our PCM that she should put in a referral for us to evaluate him.

I am also second guessing myself with public school. 

He is such an innocent soul and everybody is his friend. I am kind of worried that he will get different in middle school. 

How is your experience with boys that go to middle school? Are they rough with each other? He does playfight with his friends but they are all very well behaved and never rude or mean. 

I just talked with my mom today how we lost our son at the the lake last year in Austria and we found him the middle of about 16 young men (like mid 20s) that had a barbecue.  They were refugees from Afghanistan and he ate with them and even though they did not understand each other they all had the time of their life teaching each other songs  . There is no shyness in him and he loves people. So he just went over to sit with them. Of course,  he should have told me and we discussed that later but that is so him. He did not really experience rejection so far.

I really don't want to break his spirit.  

Maybe I just worry too much and all the stories about bullying and stuff are exceptions that don't happen very often. 

I just sometimes hear that it can be rough at middle school. 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lillyfee said:

I just sometimes hear that it can be rough at middle school. 

Maybe see how long your wait is for evals. 

[Green Bean]

2 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

I really don't want to break his spirit.  

Maybe I just worry too much and all the stories about bullying and stuff are exceptions that don't happen very often. 

I just sometimes hear that it can be rough at middle school.

No, the stories are not rare or exaggeration. It is oh so common. 
 

I’m with PeterPan- get the evals and cross that bridge when you have to.

Maybe look into Lantern English for classes. $60/8-wk course.

[Lillyfee]

Yes, I am going to wait for the results first. 

My problem is simply that I feel I am completely fine teaching the elementary grades but I am not a native speaker or teacher and especially I would not know how to teach him best if he has some kind of learning disorder. That is the reason why I get nervous and feel that I want to have an expert look at him. Maybe I feel more confident once we know if there is something "wrong" and how to handle it. 

As more as I read here as more I feel like I am not doing enough. 

My kids are completely on grade level and the younger ones read beautifully and are good at math but I just use for all kids the Good and the Beautiful. Now I read that the spelling in there is not enough.

My oldest did Abeka math for 8th grade as they did not have higher grades.

She went back to school (to make the transition to high school smoother) a couple of weeks ago and has A+ everywhere. Here I read kids do Algebra 1 in 6th or 7th grade while I just followed the guidelines and she had Pre Algebra in 8th grade even though it was so easy for her.

What I want to say is that I don't know if I feel comfortable teaching middle school and if I can so a good job at it.

 

 

[Green Bean]

You might call Memoria Press and ask to speak to Cheryl Swope. She created their special needs curriculum and can help you with a plan.

https://www.memoriapress.com/curriculum/special-needs-about/

[Lillyfee]

Thank you. I will decide what I do next school year when the evaluations are done.

My doctor will call me on Monday to talk about all this. What should I tell her what I want to have done? I know ADHD testing and an appointment with an eye specialist. Is there anything else I should ask for? They also said I should think about if I want to have the ADHD testing done on post or off post but I don't think that one is better than the other. It probably depends on the person and we just hope to get lucky.

[caffeineandbooks]

Just an idea with his writing: you're doing great by letting him do work that's appropriate for him, even if you feel it doesn't match his "grade level".  It can also help to separate the skill of composition from the mechanics of forming sentences on a page.  To do that, you might sometimes act as the scribe: ask him to tell you what the history lesson you just read was about, and you write/type his words for him.  Or even just make sure there's plenty of discussion happening.  When you discuss a book together, he's practising the thinking skills which are critical for having something to say, and will help him work at grade level down the track when evals/interventions have shored up his mechanics.

[Lillyfee]

Thank you.

Yes, he is good in discussing things and when I read something to him it is easy for him to tell me exactly what was going on.

What I also forgot to say. His handwriting was unreadable for the longest time. We do handwriting now with The Good and the Beautiful in cursive and it got a lot better. At least I can read it now and he stays on the lines.

Even when I think there might be something going on with him, I also feel like the school missed a lot. When he could not read his AR books he could listen to them on the school laptop and his teacher told me that some kids are just bad in handwriting. 

When he could not read they recommended that he looks at the pictures and guesses the word and they also told me that spelling will come with time and he should just write however the words sounds and I should not correct it.

I did not learn like that but I thought that might be a new and better approach and while it worked well with my oldest it did not work at all for my son to rely that all this will come to him with time. I am a angry with myself that I did not intervene earlier.

[ElizabethB]

While there may be something else going on, that also sounds similar to a lot of children I work with that have reading and spelling problems from balanced literacy--sight words, Accelerated Reader, leveled readers, 3 cuing--those all lead to guessing and spelling problems.

I have free remedial lessons with nonsense words, they teach phonics to a 12th grade level, the nonsense words help overcome the guessing habits. I would work through the whole thing, then work on spelling. It teaches a bit of spelling rules but the focus is reading and stopping guessing habits:

http://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

You should be able to get a good referral or direction from tricare. We are retired Air Force. You can also talk to your base School Liaison Officer about getting testing through the schools.

I would first give him the MWIA 3, the reading grade level test, and the nonsense word tests, tests at the end of the above website link. (Numbers 2, 5, 6.) If the slowdown on the MWIA is more than 20%, I would limit outside reading for a month, read his work to him, books on tape. Sentences trigger the guessing habit--you're less likely to guess when you don't have context to guess from.

What is your native language? My ideas for spelling will depend on your native language and if he speaks it or not.

Edited April 15, 2022 by ElizabethB

[Lillyfee]

Thank you so much. I will do that.

Outside of school I speak only German with kids. While the girls switch between the two languages without problems, my son understands everything I say but has trouble speaking it back. However, I know of a lot of kids they have the same problem that they understand a language but don't really speak it too well.

While my older one also writes in German since middle school but I plan not to do that with him as he has so much trouble with English. However, while the grammar is a lot harder in German I feel the spelling in English is a lot more confusing. I never really realized that as I see a word and then kind of know how to spell it but if you have trouble there it seems really difficult to spell in English.

Yes, I believe the word guessing is a huge problem when I started homeschooling him he told me that he does not read names.  He can only read words but no names and always skips them. I made him sound out names in stories and he had no idea how to do that. He still has a lot of trouble with longer words. I still need to say a lot of times that he read a word wrong and then sometimes needs really long to decode it. The biggest problem is that sometimes his guessed word has a  completely different meaning even though it looks similar to the real word and changes the whole sentence. 

 

[mathmarm]

For his English reading, I recommend an intensive phonics component. I remediated reading for an older child (11yo) in about 6 months of intensive phonics with handwriting so if there is no severe learning difference I think that you may see similar results.

I would give him a list of 1 syllable words (not sentences, just words) and have him read them aloud. On an identical copy, mark every word that he misreads and when he's done, compute his accuracy. You want to get a baseline for where he is and the result will not matter as much.
Use a phonics sequence so that you can focus on what he needs. If he's reading CVC words perfectly, then no need to include those.  If he's misreading a lot of CVVC words, then that gives you a place to start.

If he's lacking in phonics for 1-syllable words, then you've identified a major weakness that you can do something about. Once he's doing well with 1-syllable words, you can expand to 2-syllable words. Then a program to take older children through a program meant for older children like Megawords or REWARDS.

At his age, if there are no severe motor difficulties, I would have him write in every phonics lesson.
Good luck on the evaluations.

[seemesew]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:31 AM, Lillyfee said:

I know. All these moves are hard if you have a child that needs more support in a subject.

His older sister has no trouble at all adjusting. She was in 4 different schools in 3 states, then homeschooled and now back in school and she adjusts very easily and never had bad grades.

His two younger siblings were  homeschooled so far but I believe they would also be fine.

I wonder if he might struggle with ADHD. He is a very bright child otherwise but just couldn't pay attention in school.  As he is naturally good at math it did not affect him but with reading and writing he would have needed to concentrate. 

This is were I think public school would be helpful in supporting me. I am worried that I keep him home and we work along and then he comes into high school with undetected ADHD or dyslexia or something which we should have treated long ago. 

I think I would feel better if some expert would look at him just to tell me if he is lazy and needs me to be strict or if it is not his fault that his brain just wanders off all the time.

I will tell you that what you are hoping for at middle school is very unlikely. The teachers do have help for special needs but the bar is SO high that your son would need to show sever delays in many aspects not just one to qualify. I have tried multiple times and my kids do not qualify and yet in private help they were diagnosed with  severe delays but since it was only in one area the schools will not help.

I get why he wants to go to school but I really think you'd be better off finding classes he likes and get his social from there not school. He sound slike he is doing well academically thanks to you so don't cut yourself short about your abilities! Find tutors or online classes or something to help you but I would not rely on the school being able to help you like you are hoping. For reference my husband is a teacher and across the nation schools do not have enough teachers so most classrooms are full beyond capacity, kids do not get the help they deserve and need in most classes because the teachers are overwhelmed with students! And a regular teacher is not trained for all the special needs out there and like I mentioned earlier the schools bar is very high for qualifying for the IEPs they need to get that help. So hoping for that help in school for him is a slim chance, imo. If he wants more social (which it what it sound like) I'd get it in other ways.   

[Lillyfee]

Thank you. I will look into phonics programs.

Yes, I am worried about that too that school won't solve the problem but makes it worse. So far I wasn't impressed at all with public school. At least not for my son. Obviously a lot of kids do just fine but he needed something different.

The only school that actually did nonsense words and a lot of phonics was the one in Hawaii where my oldest started school and went there until 2nd grade.

There is so much I did not understand with the other schools. Like sight words. I never had sight words but English is different and times change. I also went to school from 8 am  to 11 am or 12 pm as a child and then in the higher grades to 1 pm. My parents never ever did anything school related withe me at home. Maybe sometimes they read a book. None of my friends parents did extra stuff at home 

Now my kids here go to school from 8 am to 3.30 pm and then I should do even more stuff at home to make sure that they are able to read and write properly. It just did not make sense to me. They are kids and need to spend time playing. 

At home we are done earlier and he made such big steps forward. 

I might really give him one or two more years at home. Let's see what the evaluations say.

[PeterPan]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:12 PM, Lillyfee said:

I know ADHD testing and an appointment with an eye specialist.

An ADHD eval can be just 2 hours. If you say you suspect learning disabilities as well as the ADHD, then that can prompt them to do the referral for a longer neuropsychological eval, which is typically more like 4-6 or even 8 hours of testing. So it's very important that you say EVERYTHING you're concerned about in order to get the most appropriate referral.

If you are seeing issues with developmental vision (convergence, focusing, etc.) then you're asking for a developmental optometrist. If you say eye specialist, the doc will probably think you mean an opthamologist, which is a totally different thing. You might want to read up on developmental vision issues and how they affect school work to understand what you're asking for and why. Here's a site to get you started. https://www.covd.org/default.aspx  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lillyfee said:

Let's see what the evaluations say.

Exactly. Until you get the referrals, you won't know how far out the evals are. If it's a 6-9 month wait, then you might decide to do some things that would get you quick information. Some screenings could save you money with curriculum mistakes. One step at a time. 🙂

[Lillyfee]

I needed to fill out some Vanderbilt questionnaire and send it to my PCMs email. I needed to put a 3 at all of the first 17 questions. They were all so on point out boy.

On all the others it was a 0. These points were  nothing like him. 

It also asked how his performance in reading, writing and math is.

For other concerns like dyslexia they said I need to contact the school liason office. 

[PeterPan]

18 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

school liason office. 

You’re in the US or overseas?

[Lillyfee]

We are in the US.

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

We are in the US.

It’s pretty common for doctors to punt and want the school to do evals. Saves the insurance company money. Private evals are more thorough.

[Lillyfee]

I only talked to the nurse so far. Sometimes they don't know everything but I had the feeling she knows what she is talking about.

The doctor that calls me back is another doctor that I usually have. My friend has her and said she is good and gave her all referrals she asked for and took her concerns seriously. I hope she will be good with us, too.