UPDATE!! “Screening” mtg w/public school

[mmasc]

@PeterPan To answer some questions, why did the SLP only test for auditory with TAPS? My simple answer: I believe she was completely and utterly incompetent. My longer answer: I had done my research, including here, (with you being one of the helpful posters!) and I felt pretty sure he had *something* going on and auditory was my suspicion. So, she tested only for EXACTLY what my pediatrician put the referral in for, which was auditory stuff, because that’s what I told the peds.
And YES! We did take him to a real audiologist in the big city an hour and a half away and had the FULL BATTERY of testing done—several hours worth. They came back with a “no” on the auditory processing disorder diagnosis. So, we dropped the SLP (who wasn’t helping AT ALL). Then we moved, then we moved again 6 months later, then we tried the reading interventions, etc etc etc. I should have sought more from another SLP, but just didn’t. 😔

Pragmatics are good. The SLP did actually observe and document that at least. 

My guess on language issues is narrative, syntax, and vocabulary. And written language disability. I’ve documented in my form that his sentences seem like a younger person has written them, that the handwriting is larger than it should be, and that he still doesn’t do basic things like capitalize letters. And YES, I’ve instructed him on these things for.ev.er!!! I’m not sure if I need to say more to compel for specific tests, or just show them some of his work.

I appreciate everyone giving me a heads-up on the possible home visit. I truly had no idea that was even possible, and honestly it terrifies me, but I’m glad to at least not be taken by surprise if it comes up. Our county has 180,000 students enrolled, so I have no idea if that huge of a district means we will get dropped and pushed through the cracks, or if it means they’ve done this a bajillion times and will know exactly what to do like a well-oiled machine. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[kbutton]

On 3/19/2022 at 9:16 AM, mmasc said:

Ok, I’ve just spent the last 3 hours typing a full document of our interventions and school timeline. Whew. I hope it’s good. It’s a lot to try and document to show what problems I’m seeing, what testing and interventions we’ve done, etc while trying to keep it concise so that they actually read it. 

Good job! 

[HJoy]

If you go to the Decoding Dyslexia website and find the links to your state, it should have lots of resources about what to expect and how to prepare.  It might have links to advocates who will go with you to meetings- that varies by state.  

[PeterPan]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:27 PM, mmasc said:

I should have sought more from another SLP, but just didn’t.

I can understand why you were burnt out! You know, sometimes it feels wrong to get back a *no* with evals, but sometimes that's the only way to narrow down what is/is not going on. 

When is his sentence complexity poor? Only in written work or also in conversation? Does he understand audiobooks with longer sentences? Syntactical complexity could drop in writing because he's stressed and trying to hold his thoughts. The more pervasive the issue is, the more you're thinking it's a developmental language issue. There are not syntax tests normed for his age. My ds has those developmental language issues, so we did the SPELT (structured photographic expressive language test) even though he was out of age for it. He failed the *preschool* version of the SPELT at age 10, sigh. Or was it 9?  I'm pretty sure it was 10. It was a low moment. But the school didn't care, snort. They didn't own the test and did not care. Completely failing an expressive language test. Sigh. 

The narrative language will be more obvious to you because it will be showing up lots of ways (basically any time you ask him to narrate). So I would *push* for that as it's a big deal now and becoming increasingly common to get narrative language testing. It's easy to show it affects academics and easy to demonstrate on your part that it's an issue. 

Have you considered metalinguistics? The ps may or may not own the tests, but you can look up the test (CELF-Metalinguistics) and see the areas and see if you have evidence of issues with that. You could compel them to run it if they own it. 

Don't beat the horse that isn't there, kwim? If you've got a TAPS and audiology screenings that are fine, move on to other explanations. 

You can get the OT do to a visual motor assessment. You can also compel them to do an *assistive technology* eval. This is an extra step, extra time in testing the OT can do. So the OT will ahve basic run of the mill testing and then in our state *assistive technology* is a separate line on the consent to eval form, an additional thing you push for. And in our school they're like oh you don't want that, move on, and I had to push and say YES I WANT THAT. Don't sign off and let them skip things! These things will probably be on the forms and they go so fast, trying to save money, zip zoom. You slow it down and say no I have the evidence, that should be evaled as well.

Dysgraphia is a funny thing. They'll shake it from the OT end of the stick as a visual motor thing and they'll also look at the language and executive function side of it. So it's good that you're getting these multi-factored evals and that's why it takes multiple people, a team approach, to answer the question of *why writing is hard*. Everyone comes together addressing their piece.

How about his vision? This is just a cover your butt thing, may or may not be a part. Have you had him checked by a developmental optometrist?

On 3/19/2022 at 2:27 PM, mmasc said:

Pragmatics are good. The SLP did actually observe and document that at least. 

Oh my. Why should you give a pass on that and tell them what not to test?? Your SLP eval was how long ago? My ds is broadly considered ASD2, agreed on by private psychs and a school IEP team. He PASSED the SLDT multiple times. There's no way an informal assessment by an SLP is conclusive and even standardized testing is not reliable before ages 10-11. Do not cede anything. Look at him yourself. How is he in conversation? Perspective taking, social thinking, and prediction? Problem solving? Collaboration and team work? With peers?

I have no clue what's happening. I'm just sayign that's a pitfall to use old assessments and make conclusions about how he'd test currently. This is the time to be thorough and put everything on the table. There's zero harm in them running these tests if you have the evidence to compel them, and there can be benefit. Thorough testing for pragmatics can show subtle areas of problems that would affect reading comprehension, etc. too and explain odd things you're seeing. Cede nothing. Present everything and advocate thoroughly.

[PeterPan]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:27 PM, mmasc said:

possible home visit. I truly had no idea that was even possible,

That's why I mentioned it, so you can think it through. For some people it's a chilled deal, no biggee. I had been advised not to allow them to observe me but to have them observe him working with our hired workers or the school staff. I didn't do that at first and it didn't go well. They critiqued EVERYTHING and blamed ME any time he would leave, for how I controlled behavior or responded, on and on. It was horrible. But my ds is not easy to work with and frankly the team was not ADOS trained and didn't know what they were seeing. You know your situation and can prethink what is best for you. If they ask (and they very well might) you can either choose to let them observe OR offer another person they can observe (tutor, whatever) OR say that their interventionist is welcome to work with him.

Frankly, I wish the rest of the team had been there observing the day the interventionist came, hahaha. She made her report sound like he was some kind of charming angel, and he was HORRIBLE to her!!! He sprayed her with a hose, was noncompliant, it was crazy. And none of that made it in the report. She had enough interaction in that anybody who was ADOS-trained could have scored and ticked him off right away, and not having that observed by the team meant a lot got missed.

That's a rabbit trail. That's what happened with us because ASD was on the table and the school "autism expert" was not, well I'll just leave it there. 
 

Just pre-think it and do what fits your situation. 

[kbutton]

https://www.makespecialeducationwork.com/blog/eight-evaluation-essentials?fbclid=IwAR2F0mJE-joqPxHSBK4fdA8dfja1vkuqWRV9JxlbRSLRmIrZT-UB24hHf7I
 

This is a little early for this, but after the eval, they will convene a meeting with a report. This article has some good tips for that. You might browse the site or follow the FB page.

[mmasc]

You all have been so gracious, kind, and encouraging. I just want you to know that I really, truly appreciate the time you’ve taken out of your days to type out responses to help me through this process. I am reading and studying each of them and applying them, so rest assured your time spent has not been in vain! I think my report is ready now after some more tweaking yesterday. I will give it another look late today and see if I need to focus on on anything I may have missed. @PeterPan I will be looking up meta linguistics today, for sure. And no! I absolutely am not reporting to them that his pragmatics were “ok” as determined by a possibly incompetent SLP. Lol That was only for your information since you had asked. 😉 They can hopefully evaluate and find out for themselves. 

Do you all think a good plan would be to submit the document detailing what I’ve seen a week in advance, but wait until the actual meeting to show samples of work?

Edited March 21, 2022 by mmasc
Typo

[Storygirl]

I think that it may be hard to show them samples of his work during a digital meeting and would go ahead and send them things ahead of time.

About the pragmatics -- be aware that they will only test for that if you request it and show need. The same for expressive or receptive language issues. There are some things that most school districts will do for all or most students during evaluations (IQ testing such as the WISC, and achievement testing, such as the Woodcock Johnson), but anything done by a speech therapist, like pragmatics testing, is only done if a deficit in that area is suspected.

There are a lot of communication needs included in the "pragmatics" category. You may want to read about it a bit online to see if anything rings a bell and causes you to want to request testing. You would need to be able to point to things that suggest an area of need, for them to agree to do it.

[prairiewindmomma]

I don't know if you've had your meeting yet, but fwiw:

1. My husband has only attended one IEP meeting over the past 15 years, and I have never felt like I wanted/needed him there except once when I needed him to be a peacemaker when I was not feeling peaceful, iykwim. 😂

2. Don't let yourself get into a headspace where you worry that what you've done is inadequate or incompetent. From what you've shared, you've used interventional level material one on one for a period of time and you're seeing some stagnation in progress and it's time to get additional eyes on what is going on. That's what you're asking for. They are bringing everyone to the table because they aren't sure where they should be screening and they are trying to get you connected with all of the right people.  After this initial meeting, you'll likely only have 2-3 other adults from the district working with you and your family in the IEPs. This is the chance to ask for the moon, and when you're most likely to get broad screenings.

3. If screenings haven't been done in the last 3 years, argue that they aren't relevant to what is going on now and need to be redone (if that's the direction you need to go).  You have a history of seeing issues, did some screenings, but clearly haven't nailed down what the root problem is because you are seeing x, y, z now and he is falling further behind the abilities of his age peers.

[PeterPan]

48 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

My husband has only attended one IEP meeting over the past 15 years, and I have never felt like I wanted/needed him there except once when I needed him to be a peacemaker when I was not feeling peaceful, iykwim. 😂

Thank you. 😉

48 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Don't let yourself get into a headspace where you worry that what you've done is inadequate or incompetent.

I need this on a sticker on my forehead.

[mmasc]

I appreciate the encouragement and feedback. My meeting is Wednesday. I am so full of nerves about it. So, so anxious to sit down with these strangers and tell them everything about my kid. It doesn’t help any that I just shared with ds about the meeting and he seems pretty upset. I’m not sure why. I’ll have to get him to talk to me (which, you know, 13 year old boys just love to do🙄)  

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, mmasc said:

I’m not sure why. I’ll have to get him to talk to me (which, you know, 13 year old boys just love to do🙄)  

I always get frustrated when I tell people something my ds does and they say "everyone" does that or it's common or normal or whatever. I'm not the best one to judge "normal" on a 13 yo, but I can say that in this reaction you're looking for whether it's demonstrating anxiety (pretty common in a mix of things going on) and whether there are language or communication issues there. 

Even the ps doesn't expect to solve everything at once. 

I'm sorry he's having more of a reaction than you expected. I think any reaction he has is normal for his situation and you can just acknowledge it and explain why you're moving forward. 

[Lecka]

I had a school meeting yesterday, it was stressful but also okay.  I hope yours will go well.  

[mmasc]

@Lecka I’m glad yours went well!

Mine is in the morning. I’m getting really nervous and dreading it! 

[Lecka]

Good luck!!!!!!!!

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, mmasc said:

Mine is in the morning. I’m getting really nervous and dreading it! 

You've got this!! They're people, they're there to help you, and you have the power. It *feels* the other way, but in this meeting you have the power to go in, give evidence, and make reasonable requests. You are an equal member of the team, and you can choose *not to sign* if you need more time or are not confident.

[mmasc]

Update (kind of). The meeting is over! Whew!😅 It just ended and I’m still processing it all. The cliffs note version is that they are bringing him in for some testing. 3 days—One day with psychologist, one with SLP, one with Special Ed teacher. I will get a consent form soon that will detail *what* testing and I will make sure I run it by you all. 😉 Overall, they were nice and professional, but I still don’t know what we will gain. They asked me something along the lines of what I wanted/needed for 8th grade and I basically said I wanted answers or diagnoses to *what* the disconnect or problem is so I can address it. I said that I was concerned about what will happen when he is taking timed tests in the very near future. I said I wanted to see if they had any resources for him or if I had any access to their resources. Then at the end, they said he’d come in on 3 separate occasions for testing, then I’d receive a report and we’d have another similar meeting. They said that they’d be seeing if he “meets the criteria for specialized education” and if so, they would write an IEP. When they asked if I had questions, I asked what that would provide for him regarding their resources and they said that if he qualifies that he’d only receive therapy for language issues with the SLP. Which is good, I guess, but I’m still wondering what he will actually GAIN from this. I guess IF he gets an IEP and it details what is needed to accommodate for testing, maybe it’ll help when he has to do the PSAT/SAT/ACT??? But I still don’t see anything helping us in the day-to-day grind. 😔 Although, the SLP seemed really nice and maybe if he needs help there and gets it, that’ll be a good thing. 
 

ok, I’m totally rambling bc my head is spinning. Thank you all for hearing me and helping me. 

[mmasc]

Ok, you all are so knowledgeable about this stuff, maybe you can help me decipher this. I already have the consent form and it tells me WHAT they’re assessing, but not what TESTS they’re using. Is that ok? Normal? It says they are doing these assessments:

psychological, sociocultural, educational, speech and language, hearing screening, vision screening. 
 

on the speech and language it does state “articulation, voice, fluency and oral language”

on the psychological it states “individual cognitive ability, learning style, emotional factors, and perceptual skills”

on educational it states “current academic achievement, classroom performance, strengths and weaknesses”

I have no idea if these are just blanket statements, or if they really apply to my ds...

Edited March 30, 2022 by mmasc

[Lecka]

Those are all blanket statements.

Okay, first, there are two parts to an IEP.  Services and accommodations.  A 504 plan is only accommodations.

A service is like — speech therapy, occupational therapy.

Then there also might be details of teaching, like if there will be minutes with someone at a certain ratio (like if there would be tutoring of some kind).  
 

I don’t know what state you are in.  Some people on the forum have IEPs where they include recommended accommodations.  I think some are just focused on services since accommodations would be provided at home.  This is stuff like — changes the teacher makes within the classroom, or little changes the teacher makes.  
 

So — one of my kids just got approved for accommodations (to type on AP tests).  He is in public school and always has been.  So, at the beginning of the year his teachers let him type in class without any paperwork, but said — you know, you won’t be allowed to type on the AP test without getting that approved.  I talked to the two teachers and said we understand that, for now we just want the class to go well.  
 

Anyway, I took in a diagnosis of dysgraphia and the counselor wrote him a 504 plan and submitted it to the College Board.  She had a meeting and it was no problem for teachers to say his handwriting impacted him in the classroom.  It is just handwriting for him.  
 

Anyway, years ago he had had speech and OT at school.  Then there was some rigamarole because it seemed like he couldn’t get dysgraphia diagnosed at school (maybe I just didn’t figure it out, unknown).  Happily it turned out insurance paid for private testing for him!  
 

Then I took that in and it worked.  
 

In the meantime he spent about 5 years refusing to have accommodations and teachers mostly let him type or he just muddled through.  
 

So…. my other son has autism and has a higher level of needs.

 

Here is what I will say:  1) I would not expect people at middle school or elementary school to know what is needed for College Board accommodations.  That is done (here at least) by a counselor at the high school who is also the AP testing coordinator.  
 

2) They do talk about testing accommodations but they may be talking about state testing requirements that depending on your state — a public school student might take with accommodations or might opt out of, depending on what the parents and teachers think.  There might even be alternate assessments.  This is all — stuff that is not what someone is thinking about if they are thinking about accommodations on the SAT or on AP tests.  They are either looking at what is appropriate for a student or possibly trying to get a good (accurate as possible) score to use for tracking purposes for the IEP (as scores can be used to ask for more tutoring or to exit a student from services, etc).  It can be a big topic but if you are wondering wrt College Board I think make that clear.  At the same time, if they put down testing accommodations for state testing, that could be a paper trail, compared to having it come across like no accommodations were needed for testing previously.  (I think this would just depend on what is common where you live, to some extent.)  But it’s just easy to think one thing is being talked about and they are talking about something else.  It’s also possible that there are just no accommodations needed for state testing at a younger age, but there could be for the same person at an older age or with different details.  So I wouldn’t worry about it — it’s just  that this has been confusing for me because you probably never hear homeschoolers talking about accommodations for state testing but you do hear about it for SAT testing.  
 

 

[Lecka]

Anyway — I think it sounds good it sounds like they are going to do testing in several areas.  You can find out what the information is once the testing is done — it’s hard to know before.  It can go in a lot of different directions.

There can be helpful information that is not tied to “now the school does this” or “now we look into x therapy.”  
 

There can be that kind of information, but there can also just be more information that is still useful.

 

[Lecka]

It sounds like the meeting did go well 🙂

[mmasc]

Thank you @Lecka for sharing. That helps me understand it better. And thanks for the encouragement, too. I’m an information kind of gal, so even if I just get info and they don’t give me direction or help at all, well, at least that’s something I guess. A starting point anyway.  

[Lecka]

There are a lot of strange things.  Like — my son has autism, other kids in his class have autism, doesn’t it seem like the room he’s in would be called an autism room?  No, the autism room is something else that’s actually pretty different.

And when we moved between districts the word “resource” (as in resource teacher or resource room) was used totally differently.  My older son was in resource sometimes in one place, and when we moved, they were just totally shocked he had been in resource because there it meant something really different.  
 

I think just ask and feel free to ask if there is anything that you aren’t sure what they mean by what they say.  

Edited March 30, 2022 by Lecka

[Lecka]

“Emotional factors” can commonly mean anxiety.  I have heard that one before where parents are offended and then they find out it means anxiety and wish it had just been said that way.  
 

It can also mean — kids who act out because they see they are behind other kids in school.  
 

They might have screening questionnaires for that and a lot of the questions will be along those lines.  

[Lecka]

I don’t see pragmatics down for speech.  I don’t know if it would be included under oral speech.  It might be something the speech therapist would just notice during the course of testing.

What is pragmatics?  It is often autism stuff.  It’s social use of language and conversational skills.  
 

I think you could ask if that is looked for even without a specific screening, if you want.

 

If it’s a known concern you could ask if they have a screening for pragmatics.

 

I don’t actually know that much about it, my son is super-obvious so it’s a non-issue as far as needing to make sure it will be observed in a screening 😉

 

Edit:  really — it’s just something that comes up a lot with autism where there may not be another area that will come up on speech/language testing.  

Edited March 30, 2022 by Lecka

[Lecka]

To some extent — articulation is saying letters clearly.  Voice is having a breathy voice or something like that.  Fluency can be like stuttering or it can be like talking too fast (I think).  
 

Oral language I think can include things like talking in a disjointed or non-sequential way, using enough types of sentences and complex enough sentences.  I’m not sure.

This is all my vague idea 😉

[Lecka]

Classroom performance may be a questionnaire you fill out, or comparison to what you see as grade-level expectations.  
 

If there are things specific to group learning (like paying attention in a group, cooperating in a group) you may ask about filling it out wrt an activity or church.  You may be able to ask someone else to fill it out if there’s a group activity where that would make sense.  
 

 

[Lecka]

I have never known what “perceptual skills” means.  

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, mmasc said:

articulation, voice, fluency and oral language”

Sometimes they'll do that with informal assessment. 

Does he have narrative language issues that are affecting his ability to do his school work?

Does he have issues with inferences, multiple meanings, etc. (ie. metalinguistics)?

Usually the SLP does the pragmatics testing, so I'm surprised that's not listed if you're seeing those issues. Did you give them evidence of issues in any of those areas (narrative language, metalinguistics, pragmatics) to compel them to run those tests? I don't really know him to know what he needs. If you have evidence of significant issues in those areas, you'll want to push back and get them to agree to test those areas too.

6 hours ago, mmasc said:

hearing screening, vision screening.

Do you take him to the optometrist yourself? If there's any question of his vision, that should definitely be checked and properly, by a developmental optometrist. 

6 hours ago, mmasc said:

on the psychological it states “individual cognitive ability, learning style, emotional factors, and perceptual skills”

So emotional factors means they're going to give you papers to fill out to screen for anxiety, depression, etc. They'll do the IQ testing, etc. and generate the paper trail for the accommodations. I think with the way the College Board works now this makes it very tidy and almost automatic, right? That would be nice.

6 hours ago, mmasc said:

But I still don’t see anything helping us in the day-to-day grind.

Well what's the PROBLEM in the day to day grind?? They asked you and you told them you're worried about the PSAT. So they're giving you testing that leads to accommodations. If you think he has language issues or social skills issues or whatever, you're going to have to pipe up NOW, before you sign. Once you sign, it's over. Outcomes on this stuff are basically predetermined if you're cynical enough. You say things, they pick up the clues of the pattern, they run tests, those tests yield the outcome. So you HAVE to complain about more areas to compel them to test those areas. WHAT OF THE DAILY GRIND IS GOING WRONG??? 

He's having meltdowns.

He can't solve problems (social, life skills, etc.).

His language drops.

He struggles socially.

I don't know, just tossing out ideas. 

This is why it took me umpteen tries, sigh, because I didn't know what to say to get them to run the tests. Don't sign till you're sure the daily grind things you're frustrated by are going to be addressed with the testing. 

For now, if it were me, I would write them politely and ask whether *pragmatics* is being evaluated formally or informally. Did you give them evidence of pragmatics issues? Are there pragmatics issues? You don't have to commit to that. It's just stalling and showing you're thinking, and it gives you more information while you think. 🙂

[mmasc]

Thanks @PeterPan! Well, to try and answer some of the questions you’ve presented— Yes, he has completed thorough in-person vision therapy and has his eyes checked regularly. The school is doing those two screenings bc they’re required in my state at his grade level, so just a check the box thing for them I’m sure. 
 

The SLP asked me about his oral speech—if he could be understood easily, or something along those lines. I said yes, because his speech is good and bc he can carry on a perfectly lovely conversation with just about anybody. 😊 Now, I DID tell her that the biggest issue I see is that when he reads something he doesn’t know what he just read. And that he can’t answer questions about it. So, big comprehension issues for sure. The SLP seemed the nicest of the bunch, so maybe I erroneously thought she’d take care of us. I did tell her that when the SLP did the TAPS years ago, that ds was having other issues and that she only ran that test bc it was th ONE thing the pediatrician put in a referral for. 🙄 So I did make it clear that I thought that was not even close to enough testing. One of them (SLP I think?) asked me something about if he seemed to have a hard time concentrating. She might have then said something about “but he hasn’t been diagnosed with adhd or takes medication, correct?”  And I responded that “no, he doesn’t take medication nor has had a diagnosis, but that he is quite active.” Not sure what that got us. Maybe they’re trying to discern if he can’t comprehend stuff bc of that, or language issues??? I don’t know. I kind of thought maybe the SLP would test for something and if it was glaringly off, she’d test further. But again, maybe I’m just naive. Honestly, I feel like this is only a stepping stone, not the final destination. We are on the 8-12 month wait list for a private neuropsych. 
 

Without giving out too much private info on my child, the day-to-day grind is really math and that he cannot remember how to do anything long term, especially math.  Also, not being able to read a short science section and write a (good) paragraph about it. But the math is killing us. (I’ve posted numerous times on here about the kiddo and math lol)

Do you think this school psychologist will be testing for working memory? Or is that a special test? 

[Lecka]

Okay, while not necessarily diagnosing ADHD, they can probably do a rating form (questionnaire) that might suggest it’s likely such that you might follow up on that.

Okay, I do think working memory will be part of standard psychological testing.  I think you would be able to Google to see.  Sometimes they give a short version or something.  I think Google and also specifically ask.

Okay, I am pretty sure working memory is an area where someone who is medicated for ADHD will (or often will) score better with medication and worse without medication.

Someone who has ADHD can have problems with long-term retention because of just not paying attention well enough to have learned properly in the first place.  It is possible.  
 

Someone with ADHD could have ADHD and have medication be appropriate, and still have learning differences.  It can be one or both.

 

Sometimes I have heard — that some testing can’t be repeated too soon so it’s better to get on medication if that’s a thing, so that the test results can be more accurate (and take out the ADHD part…. And prevent people from saying “it’s just ADHD” if you suspect more than ADHD).  
 

So — the possibility of ADHD is very fair and then if it is, some kids will just make rapid improvement with medication and be like different students.  Others will continue to have issues but still take medication or not depending on how it is going for them.  
 

With my oldest son we had a possibility of ADHD and it was ruled out by the screening questionnaire and by the teacher observation form.  
 

He ended up scoring high on some anxiety type stuff and they thought it went along with his learning issues — for example he could not write very well and he would have anxiety that he wouldn’t be able to finish his work during class.  Then that can look like it could be ADHD but they didn’t think so from the screenings and stuff.  
 

I think it would be good for you to have a private opinion on ADHD, not what you “think” ADHD is like, but with looking into it a little and seeing what you think.  
 

The questionnaires and ratings still go a long way, but it’s something to keep in mind. 
 

Often ADHD is an early thing to be looked at, because it is common.  It is also something that may be noticed a lot earlier in a classroom setting, so that is something to keep in mind.  
 

Sometimes people can think “you don’t get to be this age and nobody has noticed” but that might not be the same situation with home school. 

[PeterPan]

59 minutes ago, mmasc said:

I DID tell her that the biggest issue I see is that when he reads something he doesn’t know what he just read. And that he can’t answer questions about it. So, big comprehension issues for sure.

She's asking about ADHD because that's the most logical explanation. Do you have any evidence that it is comprehension vs. poor working memory/attention/executive function? Does his comprehension change when engaged? My dd would do that and it was the ADHD. 

 

1 hour ago, mmasc said:

I kind of thought maybe the SLP would test for something and if it was glaringly off, she’d test further.

There's not that kind of luxury with ps evals. You show the evidence and get them to agree to test that area on this consent form. If it's not there, it's not (usually) getting done. No fishing expeditions, no 8 hour evals. 

1 hour ago, mmasc said:

he can carry on a perfectly lovely conversation with just about anybody.

About his preferred topic or their topics? Just checking.

1 hour ago, mmasc said:

the day-to-day grind is really math and that he cannot remember how to do anything long term, especially math.  Also, not being able to read a short science section and write a (good) paragraph about it.

The psych will handle all that. 

At this age comprehension might show up in the metalinguistics areas, things like making inferences, understanding phrases that have multiple meaning, etc. Is he having any issues like that?

It's not that they're not doing fair evals, because they are. They're giving you evals for ADHD, seeing if there are any SLDs or anxiety, and catching the glaring stuff. It would be enough to get him functional in their settings. They're *not* running pragmatics, narrative language, or metalinguistics it sounds like. If you suspect ASD (ie. restricted interests, difficulty with perspective taking, etc. etc.), then you would want to pipe up now to make sure you get those additional areas (pragmatics, narrative language, metalinguistics). There's no need to run those things if they're not warranted.

I'm glad you had such good rapport with them and that they're saying they can offer services! That varies by state and sometimes by county, so in your case it's a good thing. If you're satisfied they've hit all the areas you think have evidence that need to be tested, you're good to sign the form and get this going! It will be so good to get some labels and words for this. 

Sometimes when you eval there's the "what do I do with this???" and it takes a while to sort that out. You'll figure it out, and the school report will help as it will be very practical, what it needs to look like to get things going better. I'm glad you're able to get these evals finally! 🙂

[mmasc]

I am just now getting near the end of this process and I have tons of info spinning in my brain that I will certainly need your help with once I can ponder and study it all a bit more. So, I’ll start with my foremost question regarding the school. I’ve had a test results phone call mtg with the SLP and school psychologist (she presented her findings and the special Ed teacher’s findings). I have SO many questions for you all regarding education and how to address needs, but for now I’ll focus on the most pressing since it pertains to the school. His Eligibility Meeting is June 6. SLP was straightforward and said that with his results, he did not qualify for services with her. Ok. Moving on. The psych said based on his test scores (WISC V, Beery VMI 6, and CTOPP-2) that she was *very* surprised to see the results of his educational testing done with the special Ed teacher. She said that those tests  combined showed that even though ds struggles and has a low/very low score on some things, he has learned to accommodate for it and pull off “average” scores. She did praise me in saying that everything I was doing must be spot on to see that kind of discrepancy.
 

So, here’s my question: I keep hearing everyone say he falls within “average”, which tells me they aren’t going to do anything regarding an IEP. But if his WISC is truly that low on things like processing speed, do I somehow push for IEP or 504?? Does that gain me ANYTHING really, since I’ll be taking this info and using it to adjust things/curriculum/methods at home? I mean, they have recommendations for the school setting, but again, I will do those at home. I feel like the eligibility meeting will be a “he falls within average. he doesn’t qualify for special education services”. So that’s ok if I walk away without an IEP, right?? Or since it says things like “needs extended time for certain tasks or modified assignments, provide breaks during extended testing services, and so on”, it means I NEED that IEP for accommodations later on other tests/SAT??? I’m confused. Please help!

[EKS]

If he gets a 504 plan, that will allow him to get testing accommodations (most likely).  It's always good to have a paper trail for this sort of thing, starting early on, even if you're homeschooling (and possibly especially if you're homeschooling).

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, mmasc said:

The psych said based on his test scores (WISC V, Beery VMI 6, and CTOPP-2) that she was *very* surprised to see the results of his educational testing done with the special Ed teacher. She said that those tests  combined showed that even though ds struggles and has a low/very low score on some things, he has learned to accommodate for it and pull off “average” scores. She did praise me in saying that everything I was doing must be spot on to see that kind of discrepancy.

Sometimes they will do services based on discrepancy with IQ. 

If the issue is that he has a high IQ, this article might help (I didn't go back to look to see if you mentioned that). https://www.teca2e.org/advocacy/can-you-be-gifted-2e-and-have-an-iep-making-the-legal-argument/?fbclid=IwAR3LBK-9K1foiKxLiMOsyzCeIGl2a0t8UXQzeHWBeTIhW0p9zpX8x8telWI

4 hours ago, mmasc said:

Or since it says things like “needs extended time for certain tasks or modified assignments, provide breaks during extended testing services, and so on”, it means I NEED that IEP for accommodations later on other tests/SAT??? I’m confused. Please help!

Usually modified assignments requires an IEP. Accommodations = 504. Modifications or intervention = IEP.

[Lecka]

How old is he?

What are his areas that are low or very low?

So there are (to some extent) two ways things can go with low or very low scores.  For a fairly younger child.

One, basic recall/fluency of skills get nailed down over time.  It takes longer for other kids but once basic skills are solid, they are solid.  Over time basic skills are more fluent, which makes things easier.  At the same time, there is more emphasis on higher level thinking skills, and these may be a strength.  
 

Two, the low or very low scores can be overcome with more time spent and more targeted time spent.  Individual tutoring can make a really big deal.  But over time it can be harder to make it happen with higher level thinking skills.  
 

I would say I have one of each.  My older son had many struggles with learning to read and learning math facts, but he is doing well as he has gotten older.

 

My younger son has achievement testing that is higher than his IQ testing, but it’s just not something where his trajectory is looking great academically (in the sense of traditional high school or college).  
 

So it just depends.  
 

If you have a 2e situation I think look at 2e stuff.  There is a lot out there.  
 

Separately (but related to the first example) sometimes the way scoring works, some low scores will not stay as low.  This is hard to explain — but let’s say at age 9 a score is drastically low.  For some kids and areas — just a little natural/developmental progress will mean a dramatic rise in percentage.  Or like — get into the 25th or 50th percentile.  Sometimes scores can go like that.  
 

I have been told that all kids make natural/developmental progress.  For some kids it’s slower and numbers get lower.  Some stay steady.  But some things really are like — well, if you are 2-3 years behind at age 9, and you are 2-3 years behind at age 13, your percentile goes up, because the difference is not as great at that age.  Like — the difference between being at a 6 or 7yo level, compared to a 9yo, is a lower percentile than being at a 10 or 11yo level compared to a 13yo.

 

Does this make sense, lol?  It is my understanding of what I have had explained to me.  

[Lecka]

He is in public school, but my older son got a 504 at the beginning of this year so he could type on AP tests.  He hadn’t had an IEP or 504 between 6th grade and his Junior year.

However he did not want (and doesn’t need) extra time, he only needs typing.  
 

He got the 504 with a diagnosis of dysgraphia from when he was 9, and current teachers saying his work was impacted by his handwriting.  
 

It was easy and didn’t require some intense paper trail, but I don’t know how that compares with other things going on

 

Also his handwriting is dramatically poor.  In high school nobody is saying “just try harder.”  
 

And he can complete times essays with typing without a problem, so extra time is not needed.

 

He also is someone who refused accommodations for years and I am leery of thinking kids will just accept an accommodation of extra time that a parent thinks is needed.  Although it seems like I am the only person on this board who has had this problem.  But it’s not just him.

 

The accommodations for testing I hear about are mainly extra time and a quiet room (I’m not sure what this is called but there is a small room, is my understanding).  My niece got an accommodation to have her cell phone because it is how she operates her diabetes pump, and then she was in a smaller room because they just had a few kids with cell phones.  
 

Finally, depending on this and that, you might look for a private person.  There are people who review testing that another person has conducted, so you don’t have to pay for testing.  Depending on what has been done.  If you don’t feel confident with what they say I think can be worthwhile.  I have never done it but I hear about it sometimes. 

[mmasc]

Answers to questions: Not 2e. He’s 13. His very low scores were processing speed and visual spacial. 
 

@kbutton So, with modifications recommendations you think it might be possible they’ll give an IEP? Possibly a 504? I hope I get something out of this because I’m afraid since they’ve tagged him as “average” that they’ll get their pass on writing out the 504 or IEP. But surely based on the psych’s scores compared to his educational testing that they *see* he’s getting that discrepancy BECAUSE I’m putting those modifications and accommodations in place??

The psych did say something public school-y like “Yes, his [WISC] scores are low, but it’s not affecting his access to education” or something like that. But those recommendations written on the evaluation are happening at home and would HAVE TO happen at their school for that education testing to be “average”.  

[kbutton]

39 minutes ago, mmasc said:

Answers to questions: Not 2e. He’s 13. His very low scores were processing speed and visual spacial. 
 

@kbutton So, with modifications recommendations you think it might be possible they’ll give an IEP? Possibly a 504? I hope I get something out of this because I’m afraid since they’ve tagged him as “average” that they’ll get their pass on writing out the 504 or IEP. But surely based on the psych’s scores compared to his educational testing that they *see* he’s getting that discrepancy BECAUSE I’m putting those modifications and accommodations in place??

The psych did say something public school-y like “Yes, his [WISC] scores are low, but it’s not affecting his access to education” or something like that. But those recommendations written on the evaluation are happening at home and would HAVE TO happen at their school for that education testing to be “average”.  

I don't know what they'll decide to do, but you are right--the accommodations you're making at home would have to be in place for the scores to look like this at school. I think that is the case that you'll have to make to them to get an IEP vs. a 504. 

Did they give you a FSIQ or a GAI? The GAI is the IQ score without processing and working memory, IIRC.

I can't remember, and I haven't gone back to look--has he had an eye exam with a developmental optometrist that would know if there are eye problems beyond simple visual acuity? If his eyes aren't teaming, that can affect the visual spatial tests. My son's scores before and after vision therapy are very, very different.

If there is a big discrepancy (20 points or so) between visual spatial and verbal with verbal being higher, you might look up non-verbal learning disorder. It was taken out of the DSM the last revision, but sometimes people find the profile to offer helpful tips. I have heard talk of it coming back in the next DSM update.

[mmasc]

Yes, he did have vision therapy in-person for 9 months about 3 years ago. I should probably pull out some of the materials they used just to have him double-check that he can still do it all. (They said we could do that, but expected him to not have any more problems). I shudder to think what the visual special scores would’ve been before therapy. 

Maybe I won’t have to fight for *something* to be provided. I will go off the angle that those accommodations are what is providing those “average” scores. I’ll have to look and see about the difference between visual spacial and verbal. I don’t remember. Thanks for that tip though. I’ll definitely look at it. 
 

from what I can tell, they did not do those other iq tests that you mentioned. She did say that his working memory was good (average).

[Lecka]

Honestly I have had a few people recognize achievement not in line with other areas.  An OT my older son had was really, really impressed with his reading (and thought based on some scores that he wouldn’t be able to read at all).

I have had a huge compliment with my younger son that he knew how to share in Kindergarten.

But mostly I just have people go “oh, he’s just good at such-and-such, some kids are.”  In a nice way for sure, but not like they are recognizing what work has gone into it.  At the same time work going into things isn’t always reflected in results.  
 

I also had a compliment to my older son’s reading comprehension one time and the person wanted to know what had been done with him, but he actually always scored well on comprehension from the time he was in pre-school.  This is my older son who has some scores patterns that look like autism score patterns, but he doesn’t have autism.  So she was impressed but nobody had done anything special on that.  
 

Otoh my younger son has done tons and tons with reading comprehension with little to no recognition.  He is complimented more for having a sweet personality, which I can’t claim any credit for.  He had a wonderful teacher in 2nd and 3rd grade who worked a huge amount on language comprehension and I have worked with him and he has had years of therapy.  But yeah — it’s just assumed “well this is how he reads” like it just happened.  
 

Basically my experience is people often can’t tell.  They see the current kid in front of them, with such-and-such skill levels.  
 

With a few exceptions here and there.

 

Like — you got that from someone, and I think that is awesome.  But I just wouldn’t count on everybody seeing it that way.  
 

But I think it makes a lot of sense!

 

Just something I want to mention.  For my older son, typing improves the quality of his composition.  This is common for kids with handwriting issues.  It’s also common to have problems with both handwriting and composition.  But it’s something to keep in mind, if he does do better with dictation or typing.  
 

For my son with dysgraphia, I was told an OT couldn’t diagnose dysgraphia, and he was diagnosed by a private neuropsychologist.  I do not think he would have been diagnosed by that school district.  That school district also didn’t diagnose autism.  I don’t know all the ins and outs of that.  
 

There is a big area where people can basically know your child has a diagnosis, but they can’t diagnose, and it varies in appropriateness how much they can really say or clue you in about.  The thing is on one hand it could be helpful.  But on the other hand it could be totally inappropriate, and people often stay on the safe side of what is appropriate, and that can mean they don’t say some things because it’s not their place/role/certification etc.  

[Lecka]

Also my older son has had serious punctuation issues at a much older age than I think he should, but feedback from his teachers has been that they aren’t concerned about it *through tenth grade.*  Last year his teacher thought it was something to work on but was definitely not concerned.  
 

And I did have run-on paragraphs through high school and still struggle with that sometimes lol!

 

Edit:  anyway, just to say it can be hard to tell.  

Edited May 20, 2022 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, mmasc said:

But if his WISC is truly that low on things like processing speed, do I somehow push for IEP or 504??

Low processing speed is a disability that gets accommodations (504). If they're not offering services, there will be no IEP.

Now to dig in a bit, what they're technically saying is that the tests they've run do not compel them to offer services. That DOES NOT mean he would not benefit from services, only that he's doing well enough and has good enough scores *on what they ran* that they don't have to do anything.

Did they do an OT eval? He could have retained reflexes or some other things an OT could address that could potentially bump his processing speed. He could have more nuanced language issues going on that aren't reflected in the testing the SLP did. If they didn't run pragmatics, he could even have issues with that. 

So make sure you understand the limits of what has been done. They've done good testing but it doesn't tell you what would have come up with *more* testing. If you think you're seeing more, you probably are. 

3 hours ago, mmasc said:

Maybe I won’t have to fight for *something* to be provided.

If they write a 504 it will reflect the accommodations they would provide him if he were placed in their school setting. It costs them nothing (other than the man hours to write the doc) to do a 504, so I would expect that to be a fair/square doc. Only the IEPs get sticky because they're locking into legal obligations to provide services. When they write an IEP, they literally paste in the test results and say *the test result says this* *so I have this goal and will provide this service*. It's that linear and direct, coming directly from the test scores. So no, if there is no testing saying he has significant discrepancy in an area affecting his ability to access his education there will not be IEP goals for that. The 504 they'll be appropriately generous with and you'll probably be glad to have it. 

It seems like you've done a lot,making VT happen, etc. Is there something else you think needs to happen (therapy wise) or are you pretty happy with how this is going and what they're diagnosing? Do their explanations seem complete?

[mmasc]

Thank you all for your feedback, help, and encouragement. Truly, it has saved me. I’ve been a bit down seeing my child reduced to numbers on paper, and it has just been A LOT to take in, with all the testing, emails, calls, meetings, etc. So thank you for your kindness and gentleness. 
 

@PeterPan The specific sub-scores DO help me see what I can more specifically hone in on, so that is really helpful. I do feel they did a good job with testing and explaining things. I am a little hung up on how areas that are VERY LOW mean I just keep on, keepin’ on, kwim? Like, ok, those scores are truly low, but he’s somehow “average” so they aren’t that bad because he makes up for it? I still find the percentile/ standard deviation thing confusing. When I see those average scores, they just don’t seem average to me. 
 

My main thing with happiness at how things are going, is if his reading comprehension (for example) is low on everything, then why? Because just keeping on with what we’re doing with reading doesn’t seem to be increasing those scores. 
 

Another example, their educational testing shows “average” or falling in the range of average, but then why on the Stanford 10 is his reading grade equivalent 3.5? It just seems like a disconnect to me. 
 

Now they did say that he should do more following along visually, highlight/underline text, do graphic organizers, etc to help with comprehension since his *verbal comprehension* was very poor. We haven’t done that and he surely didn’t when taking his Stanford 10, so maybe those things *will* help comprehension in the future??

I have a TON of research to do now to try and revamp all of these things to more specifically tailor our resources and curriculum and everything. So.much.to.figure.out. 
 

Oh, and they commented on his phonological stuff being awesome. All of that was very good. They basically said he wasn’t showing signs of dyslexia, which really surprised me. But again, that reading comprehension is LOW. They did say the poor vocabulary skills could play a part in that, too. 
 

I know they have all these rules in the school to follow before services get offered, but I point blank asked the SLP if any of his sub scores, in her professional opinion, would mean I should seek outside help and she said no, not in her opinion. I also point blank asked the psychologist if she noticed focus and attention issues and she said she did not observe that all, nor did the special Ed teacher make note of that either. So, I guess the only thing I haven’t really had tested is the OT stuff. He’s never seen an OT. 

[Kanin]

13 hours ago, mmasc said:

But surely based on the psych’s scores compared to his educational testing that they *see* he’s getting that discrepancy BECAUSE I’m putting those modifications and accommodations in place??

In special ed eligibility, you're looking for adverse effect on academics. So, a kid could have very low processing speed but if he's learned to compensate, the low processing speed might not have an adverse effect on his academics. So, if all of his scores on the academic testing are average/low-average, he likely will not qualify for academic interventions. 

It's important to realize that just having a disability does not automatically qualify someone for interventions. It may automatically qualify them for an accommodation plan (i.e., 504). 

It might be different in different states. 

It can be a frustrating situation!

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Now to dig in a bit, what they're technically saying is that the tests they've run do not compel them to offer services. That DOES NOT mean he would not benefit from services, only that he's doing well enough and has good enough scores *on what they ran* that they don't have to do anything.

This. Kids can struggle and still not struggle "enough" to qualify for special education. Like anything else (swim team, science olympiad, etc), there are criteria to qualify. A tough part of being in special education is seeing kids who struggle, but who do not qualify for special ed. In those cases, the classroom teachers and the school are supposed to provide interventions - like RTI (response to intervention) - which are still good interventions but aren't regulated in the same way as special education. 

Unfortunately, if every kid who struggled qualified for special ed, there would be like 40% of kids in SpEd. The goal is more like 10% in SpEd, and in most places, it's creeping up to 13, 14, 15%. Long story short, schools are supposed to intervene in other ways for kids that are in the other 25% that struggle but don't qualify for SpEd.

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, mmasc said:

I’ve been a bit down seeing my child reduced to numbers on paper,

This is normal, so just keep working through it. There's a grief every time you get evals, and you don't have to deny that. You're going to go through the stages of grief over and over, every time something new comes up. Then you're going to dust yourself off and carry on and make happen what needs to happen. But yes, they dissect the kids to get info that is useful. Just take care of yourself and give yourself space to work through the emotions and you'll come to the other side.

5 minutes ago, mmasc said:

I am a little hung up on how areas that are VERY LOW mean I just keep on, keepin’ on, kwim? Like, ok, those scores are truly low, but he’s somehow “average” so they aren’t that bad because he makes up for it? I still find the percentile/ standard deviation thing confusing. When I see those average scores, they just don’t seem average to me. 

Standard deviations are a statistics thing and they show you the *significance* of the percentages or where those percentages become significant. For instance, there's a language test given to kids that has unusual numbers because basically after a certain age EVERYONE should do well on it. So for that test, the bell curve they expect isn't what the data looks like. For every test the team did you can google and look for the standard deviations for that test. Do not wrack your soul looking at percentages. The way you should significance is by looking at what reflects a standard deviation, what is REALLY DEVIATING from the norms within that population. Typically the schools are looking for at least 1.5 standard deviations of discrepancy to establish significance. Sometimes they'll use discrepancy from IQ but usually just from the mean. 

If someone has significant discrepancy on say processing speed, that's definitely a disability!!! It's going to result in a list of accommodations and going to impact them in lots of subtle areas of life besides academics. So it kind of depends where the area is. If you want, feel free to post some of the areas and we can talk about them. My dd was a funny bird in her evals, with these areas of strength and odd pockets of low scores. One they completely blew off and nobody wanted to do anything with was word retrieval. Well that totally bit her butt in college. I'm not sure whether there was anything that could have been done, but sometimes it's just about *understanding* what those scores really mean and being sensitive. Sometimes the psychs will say gentle things about a reduced load, this and that, and they're really really important. 

It's a journey and you've got this. One step at a time. 🙂

12 minutes ago, mmasc said:

My main thing with happiness at how things are going, is if his reading comprehension (for example) is low on everything, then why? Because just keeping on with what we’re doing with reading doesn’t seem to be increasing those scores. 

You're going to have to dig in on what you've got. They did good tests, but they did not exhaust the testing it could take to sort this question out. Personally, I would be heading to an SLP who specializes in literacy at this point. If you think the explanation is narrative language, executive function, social thinking, metalinguistics, anything odd with language, anything language you can't put your finger on, an SLP who specializes in literacy is your person. You've got basic evals but they would have the detailed tests. You would need to go to a BIG CITY and get the person in the big city who is known for doing this. In the Big City near us I can think of *two* SLPs who even own the necessary tests. One is a professor at a university and the other does all the IEE evals (dispute evals) and is known for her language evals being very thorough. If they don't own the tests, pretty hard to show what is going on. With bright kids, they have so much memorized language that it takes excellent tests to make the issues obvious. If you just talk with them, you miss it because there's so much ability to memorize. 

16 minutes ago, mmasc said:

Another example, their educational testing shows “average” or falling in the range of average, but then why on the Stanford 10 is his reading grade equivalent 3.5? It just seems like a disconnect to me.

Was that Stanford test done a year ago? You'll need to see specifics, but you could be seeing differences in administration or attention. There's also a RANGE so he's in the RANGE. 

Sometimes it takes a lot of thought for all this to make sense. We'll call it reading the tea leaves, haha. Say both numbers are true and there's discrepancy. Why? You read the tea leaves, googling the tests, figuring out what changed, and that tells you something. Attention is going to be a huge factor. Maybe he was very engaged in the method of testing the psych used and maybe he had a lot of distractions in the previous testing environment. Maybe the psych gave accommodations, which they're then noting. 

We talk about ADHD and processing speed so much that sometimes we think they're nonanswers or oversimplify them. Sometimes they're big answers, an explanation about a difference in neurology and chemistry that is affecting a lot of things.

19 minutes ago, mmasc said:

Now they did say that he should do more following along visually, highlight/underline text, do graphic organizers, etc to help with comprehension since his *verbal comprehension* was very poor. We haven’t done that and he surely didn’t when taking his Stanford 10, so maybe those things *will* help comprehension in the future??

You gotta love ps evals. Bless their hearts, throwing out "poor verbal comprehension" and then not doing the evals to explain it. So APD, SLP issues, what is at the bottom of that? That's outrageous not to get that sorted out but it's how the system works. If his scores are fine, treat it as EF and move on. You SHOULD do all the things they're saying *and* you should get further evals to see if there are treatable issues explaining the "poor verbal comprehension". That's eyebrow raising and something to look into. You want to know if ADHD meds solve it (it's only attention) or if there's APD or some subtle language issues going on or what. That takes more detailed testing and specialists.

22 minutes ago, mmasc said:

They did say the poor vocabulary skills could play a part in that, too. 

Sure and why is vocabulary low? Time for SLP evals. Private, someone specializing in it, someone who will spend 6-8 hours just on language and dig in and sort it out. 

23 minutes ago, mmasc said:

I point blank asked the SLP if any of his sub scores, in her professional opinion, would mean I should seek outside help and she said no, not in her opinion.

The SLPs are limited by the tests they own, their realm of experience (and hence the prism they look through), and the containing efforts of the system. Do not underestimate the impact of any of these things. Evals are not personal and it's not about who was nice. If they don't own the tests, they can't run them. If they are told to test in 1 hour and it would take 6-8, those tests can't happen. If they don't specialize in those areas, they aren't as likely to speak to it.

So for instance we had a lovely SLP our first few years of IEPs with our ps. She was clearly being limited in what she could run and literally spent 20 minutes with ds the first time. She noticed some tongue thrusting and had nothing else to add. A kid with apraxia who later COMPLETELY BOMBED even a preschool expressive language test and narrative language testing. They did not own the tests to show his issues and had a system that was not set up to make those detailed evals happen. You have to do all that privately. When things don't add up, you go private. That SLP was lovely btw and I still talk with her. The issue she saw WAS an issue and we're currently getting therapy for it. But you have to understand the limits of the system. 

27 minutes ago, mmasc said:

I also point blank asked the psychologist if she noticed focus and attention issues and she said she did not observe that all, nor did the special Ed teacher make note of that either.

That is really curious. What do you make of that? My ds (currently diagnosed ASD+ADHD plus a litany of language and SLD things) sort of presented that way. For some kids with their chemistry, the ASD balances out the ADHD and they end up passing attention tests. Literally I had 4 sustained attention tests and similar evals saying opposite things within the scope of a year. 

Did they have you fill out any EF surveys? It would be a form with things like how he is with attention behaviors, organization, etc. 

I'm not saying he has ADHD, just that it's interesting. So there was low processing speed with at least an average IQ but no attention? 

30 minutes ago, mmasc said:

I have a TON of research to do now to try and revamp all of these things to more specifically tailor our resources and curriculum and everything. So.much.to.figure.out. 

Don't try too hard too fast. Maybe just think about how what you learned can impact LIFE and what you can change today. Change a small thing and see how that goes. Keep reading the reports and thinking. You'll make connections. You don't need to decide fall today, kwim? You're going to learn a lot over the next few months as you continue to think, talk with him, get your questions answered. 

Is there anything you learned that can change how you work with him TODAY?

[PeterPan]

24 minutes ago, Kanin said:

Unfortunately, if every kid who struggled qualified for special ed, there would be like 40% of kids in SpEd. The goal is more like 10% in SpEd, and in most places, it's creeping up to 13, 14, 15%. Long story short, schools are supposed to intervene in other ways for kids that are in the other 25% that struggle but don't qualify for SpEd.

Also there's sort of a profile they're looking for. The school is not just thinking who needs services but where do they place, where do they fit in... My ds, with his bizarre mixes of strengths and weaknesses, fits in no where. Well they'd have to make it work and an autism school would try. But an autism school has options a ps autism classroom doesn't have. PS autism classrooms (except in $$$$$ school districts in a Big City) are more low functioning, lower IQ. The psych looks at my kid and goes doesn't fit in. ED classroom is closer. Gen ed with resource room. They have these options and they're profiling the kids and going ok this kid with this mix *tends* to do well here. They know how that mix rolls.

So if you have a kid with a high enough IQ to skate by, memorize, mask, or otherwise bluff their way through, they get shoved into a placement and that's how it is. It doesn't mean they don't have issues that would respond to targeted, high quality intervention. It just means the ps isn't going to provide it.

I've used umpteen SLPs, OTs, psychs, you name it. It's *very hard* to get anyone to dig in and find the subtle issues. Those people are special. 

Only op can decide if accommodations alone are adequate or if she thinks more detailed tests are warranted. She needs to go with her gut and what we're saying is how to find those detailed tests to find those pocket issues if you think they're there. It's not like this is a right/wrong thing. The only thing that is *not* well advised is continuing a path that isn't working or is creating a lot of stress and frustration. 

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, mmasc said:

So, I guess the only thing I haven’t really had tested is the OT stuff. He’s never seen an OT. 

We're doing OT again, haha, still for retained reflexes. Definitely worth doing an eval if you find the right OT. Retained reflexes glitch language development, motor planning, all sorts of things. We've done a bunch of systems and are currently using someone trained in Musgatova methods for retained reflexes. She found some subtle issues we hadn't ridded yet. 

OT is good for getting the student more comfortable in their body and more regulated. It's good for explaining odd developmental issues. Was his VMI the psych did solid? OT training right now is incomplete and they end up doing a lot after grad school. You'll need to make sure your OT is trained in what you need, sigh. 

I would still look into the private SLP evals to get better explanations. There are SLPs who specialize in literacy and expressive language. I would get an APD screening with an audiologist who specializes in APD just to make sure there isn't an audiology explanation. 

Didn't you say you had private psych evals booked way out? Brief or something longer? If they're way out, you can get these other specialized evals in the meantime. Sometimes a psych is not the complete story. Maybe just start unwrapping and see what becomes obvious. The SLP should have some pragmatics testing they could run too. If you see issues with pragmatics or metalinguistics, it could change your choice of psychs. 

And if you like the ps explanations and think you want to do accommodations and see what happens, fine do that. Sometimes you just try things a bit and see what happens. What you might do, and this is just a suggestion, is find the audiologists and SLPs for those evals and get on their lists. That way if the wait is a few months (which it can be!) you're not waiting again if you decide/realize you want them. 🙂

[mmasc]

Thank you all. There’s so much to sort through and think about. I’ll come back later and answer some questions. 
 

A few thoughts—he had a full audiologist exam for APD when he was 8. Presumably it was done correctly and he hasn’t developed that since then. Surely...

Honestly, I suspected adhd. But again, the psychologist said she didn’t see it. 

No EF surveys, but I’ve done enough research to think that is definitely a problem he has. 
 

Regarding the verbal comprehension testing, the SLP said he “was all over the place”. And she did say distracted. But she was the only one to mention that. By far on the SLP’s test, the Understanding Spoken Paragraphs was the lowest. 
 

oh! And not the SLP, but the psychologist noted that “phonological memory” was an area of difficulty. She also noted on rapid naming skills, he was above average. There weren’t many above averages, but that was one. Working memory was his best score.
 

What can I do *today*? Not totally sure, but 1) keep using the whiteboard and maybe Math U see (again) for math to give that highly needed white space. 2) no more reading science out loud without him having something to follow along with. I’ll provide the text so he can engage with it more. 

That’s really all I’ve got so far. 😞 I just had all the meetings, so I’m still wrapping my mind around stuff.