UPDATE!! “Screening” mtg w/public school

[mmasc]

My dc is homeschooled. I have a “screening meeting” with the public school. She said it’s a team of professionals and named several people’s roles, such as a 7th grade teacher (maybe?), herself (special ed representative, school psychologist, and maybe another person or two—I can’t remember. I told her I’d never done this before and asked what this meeting would look like. She said it’s currently virtual, but that this team would ask me questions and give me an opportunity to express my concerns. So, my main questions for you guys are:

1) What can I really expect from this?

2) Is there anything I really need to say or *not* say, or do I just tell what I’m seeing?? Maybe show them past Stanford 10 tests??

I admit that I’m nervous about this meeting. I guess it will determine if they do “further evaluations.” I do believe further evaluations are needed and I’d like to know how I can make that happen. Any advice? Tips? Suggestions? I just don’t know what I’m going to gain from this for my ds, if anything. I don’t have much confidence in them, but who knows. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by mmasc

[73349]

I would be a specific as you can with characterizing the challenges the student is experiencing. If previous standardized testing shows a glaring weakness, yes, I would bring it. Work samples might help, too (e.g., if you bring in an English or math worksheet that your student recently struggled with, especially if it's something that most 7th-graders don't find that hard).

[kbutton]

List out everything that concerns you and tell them about how it effects schooling. 

I agree that samples could be helpful.

Be clear about any and all accommodations or scaffolding you provide--if you're having to knock yourself out to get things to stick, they need to know that. They need to understand what intervention he's already getting via your hard work. 

[mmasc]

This is helpful. Thank you both for your insight. I didn’t really think about telling them about the accommodations that I provide, because to me, it’s just how we “do school”, you know?? But yes, I can see how that could be helpful info. Not only to show “here is his work” but also that he got it done because “we did this”. For example, we work one math problem together, at a time, through the worksheet. Sometimes even on the white board and not the actual worksheet. 

[kbutton]

10 minutes ago, mmasc said:

This is helpful. Thank you both for your insight. I didn’t really think about telling them about the accommodations that I provide, because to me, it’s just how we “do school”, you know?? But yes, I can see how that could be helpful info. Not only to show “here is his work” but also that he got it done because “we did this”. For example, we work one math problem together, at a time, through the worksheet. Sometimes even on the white board and not the actual worksheet. 

You might remove some supports, tell him to do his best, and then take samples in for them to see along with samples with the supports. Just make sure he knows he's not being penalized--you just want to see how he'd do with a different approach. 

 

[PeterPan]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:37 PM, mmasc said:

I have a “screening meeting” with the public school.

I've missed the flow of what you are trying to accomplish, but a ps never does anything willy nilly. This meeting has a name and is part of the evaluation process. As such it has legal protections and legal CONSEQUENCES. The eval and IEP/504 process with the ps is much faster and more high stakes than the parent realizes going in. This first meeting will basically decide the outcome of everything you're going to do over the next 2-3 months with them. They will be asking you to sign things, which they can do virtually. 

1-Bone up on the legal process for what you're about to do. Get the flow chart with the steps, the timeline.

2- Gather ALL the evidence you have. Put everything in a dropbox file by year so it's organized and ready to share.

3-Don't hide or be bashful about anything. As kbutton says, this is not the time to want pats on the back about how well you've done. To make things happen, you have to show what's going WRONG and let it all hang out, ugly, ugly. 

4-Find out what they're looking for to establish and make happen the things you want to make happen. This means reading books and talking with people in your county who've done this. Find out what guidance your state dept of ed issues for the criteria to get the diagnoses you're wanting/expecting. 

5-Do NOT SIGN anything that you do not completely understand. You have the LEGAL RIGHT to ask to think it over and sign in a few days. If they ask you to sign a consent to eval and it *does not* include every area that needs to be addressed, you're already screwed before this even starts. Some schools are very generous and some are very stressed. You cannot go into this naively assuming they're going to do what you *think* ought to happen or have some kind of exploratory, warm fuzzy experience. They're going to give you the same service they do their enrolled students, will tend to be brief, to the point, and legally compliant at best. So for example it might take 6+ hours of SLP evals to determine language issues in a complex situation, and your ps SLP will be given 45 minutes and guided to do the most essential screeners. These are radical differences. They might skirt areas entirely for which you have evidence and could have pushed, had you known. Advocacy is not for the faint of heart, sigh.

Do not "trust but verify" as that will not get you what you need. You are an active part of the IEP team and need to contribute.

[PeterPan]

On 3/15/2022 at 9:17 PM, mmasc said:

the accommodations that I provide,

That information matters to the extent that it shows them suspected areas of disability that need to be eval'ed.

Be organized and work backward. You suspect xyz, so provide the evidence to compel them to eval. 

They know how to write their own IEP/504, so that's not why you're providing the details. You're trying to give evidence to compel them to eval. The ps has an RTI process, so you also need to be establishing that these issues are occurring in spite of adequate education AND in spite of some intentional form of intervention/accommodations. Many things that we might consider "accommodations" in homeschooling (because they weren't the norm in our childhoods) are now just normal in the ps. 

So be thorough but think through what you're trying to establish, provide evidence for, or make happen. Don't be general but very targeted.

-narrative language

-social skills

-conversation

-emotional regulation

-attention

-anxiety

-SLDs

-physical difficulties with being able to access his education

Whatever it is, provide evidence to compel them to eval, show that you have both provided adequate instruction AND some intervention in the area.

[PeterPan]

Think through how each area leads to evals you're trying to make happen. Be very intentional. That way you don't sign consent forms that don't include testing that would be needed to show areas of disability for your dc. They save money by not doing those tests and then not being compelled to provide services. You advocate by making sure those areas happen. They may not even OWN the tests, but you can push. Sometimes they own them and don't offer. 😉 

[mmasc]

Very helpful, @PeterPan, thank you. Honestly, I’m not exactly sure what I’m trying to get, other than a diagnosis and a paper trail. Ideally, I want to set him up to be able to have accommodations on testing, whether it’s the year end kind or the psat or whatever. Even more ideally, I’d like to know if they have anything that can help with the math and writing issues I’m seeing. This meeting has basically come upon me suddenly because I did two things on the same day—submitted paperwork to have a neuro eval (8-12months wait) and put a call in to the local ps, assuming with it being March I’d get nothing. Well, they called back within 2 hours and set this appt up in two weeks. So I guess it’s my first step in *something*, but I’m still nervous about it and just not sure if I should even do it. I don’t know what they could do to help if he has dycalculia. I don’t know what they could do to help if he has dyslexia. I don’t know what they could do to help if he has working memory issues. So really, I’m not sure what I WANT from them. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I've missed the flow of what you are trying to accomplish, but a ps never does anything willy nilly. This meeting has a name and is part of the evaluation process. As such it has legal protections and legal CONSEQUENCES. The eval and IEP/504 process with the ps is much faster and more high stakes than the parent realizes going in. This first meeting will basically decide the outcome of everything you're going to do over the next 2-3 months with them. They will be asking you to sign things, which they can do virtually. 

I can't tell if this is the important consent to evaluation meeting, or it's as she says--a sort of screening. They sometimes will do some squishy meet and greet to try to find reasons to NOT evaluate. 

[mmasc]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

I can't tell if this is the important consent to evaluation meeting, or it's as she says--a sort of screening. They sometimes will do some squishy meet and greet to try to find reasons to NOT evaluate. 

We are new to the area and don’t know anything about this school district or how it operates. It is a HUGE district, though. From the letter I received, I know my virtual screening meeting will include the following people:

General Ed teacher

special Ed teacher

principal/designee

psychologist

social worker

In the formal letter, they state that this is  a “local screening committee to discuss your student’s educational needs. Information that may be reviewed include your child’s scholastic records, results of any standardized testing, and/or classroom observation.” Then it says if I have any reports or additional information I’d like to share with the committee to get it to them at my earliest convenience.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, mmasc said:

In the formal letter, they state that this is  a “local screening committee to discuss your student’s educational needs. Information that may be reviewed include your child’s scholastic records, results of any standardized testing, and/or classroom observation.” Then it says if I have any reports or additional information I’d like to share with the committee to get it to them at my earliest convenience.

I would assume what PeterPan is saying then. You will want all of your information together, and you'll want to be sure they are testing every area that you are concerned about. And just so you know, language stuff encompasses A LOT. It can be dyslexia, written expression, comprehension, social skills (pragmatic language), narrative language, etc. You have to discuss all of those things like they are separate, but your form might list it like it's one thing. 

Did you submit a written (e-mail counts) request for an evaluation for special education? If you did not, they might be mushy of following the law because technically, you have to have a request in writing, and sometimes they are sticklers about making you ask for an evaluation. If you say you want accommodations and a paper trail, they might say that's not an evaluation, and they might not follow the law. They might give you a 504 plan and not even see if an IEP is appropriate.

I hope not, but it happens!

[kbutton]

Usually for that first meeting, you sit down with the psychologist, not the whole team. That's part of what has me wondering what's up. 

[kbutton]

Have you visited the IDEA website? It's the federal legislation that governs special education and things for people with disabilities. Every state has to implement their version of IDEA's guidelines.

In most states, you can see the blank forms online and see their process--some states have different names than other states do for the parts of the process.

[mmasc]

43 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Usually for that first meeting, you sit down with the psychologist, not the whole team. That's part of what has me wondering what's up. 

It’s definitely the whole team. I got info about the 504 Act (?) and it also said something about “If an individual evaluation is recommended to determine whether your child is a child with a disability and is in need of special education and related services, the committee will determine the assessments required to ensure that the evaluation is sufficiently comprehensive.” That would be IEP, correct??

I think I’m going to get a few samples of his work ready and go ahead and submit those, along with his Stanford 10 results, and my typed info regarding my concerns (there’s a parent form I can fill out). Maybe if I send all of this ahead of time they’ll actually have time to look at it and review it before the meeting. Who knows though. I was cautious to “put it all out there”, but you guys have made me feel like that’s actually the right way to go, so I appreciate the advice. 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, mmasc said:

I did two things on the same day—submitted paperwork to have a neuro eval (8-12months wait) and put a call in to the local ps, assuming with it being March I’d get nothing. Well, they called back within 2 hours and set this appt up in two weeks. So I guess it’s my first step in *something*,

They replied quickly because they have a legal timeline they have to meet. Your rights as a parent, even when your dc is not enrolled, are in the law. They were *required* to have this meeting probably within 30 days and they did it quickly because they're about to get really, really busy anyway. 

This is the meeting where everything that happens over the following two months is decided. You want to be very careful here and not assume, because your goals (find out what is going on) are NOT their goals. The ps is mandated to identify students with disabilities affecting their ability to access their education. They don't have to establish EVERYTHING going on or that is "medically" going on. So for instance a dc could be on the spectrum (just throwing that out there, I have no clue) and they don't diagnose it because it is not, at this point, "affecting his ability to access his education."

Think through the implications of that. PS evals can be VERY useful and like you I did them alongside $$$ private evals. However they are different beasts with different goals. 

The best way to get thorough evals is to advocate HARD for what needs to happen and why. They'll do something, but they might do less than they could with more evidence, more advocacy. 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, mmasc said:

I don’t know what they could do to help if he has dycalculia. I don’t know what they could do to help if he has dyslexia. I don’t know what they could do to help if he has working memory issues. So really, I’m not sure what I WANT from them. 

Again, you need to look at your state dept of ed and pull up their IEP and evaluation timeline charts, info pages, whatever. In our state, and presumably most places, the evaluation process is *separate* legally and technically as a stage from writing an IEP or 504. So you present evidence at this meeting to determine whether evals are warranted. Those are a FEDERAL RIGHT and happen irrespective of placement, etc. Then the team looks at the report that they write collectively based on those evals, and they determine whether an IEP or 504 would be written. However the compulsion to write the IEP/504 (which is man hours and money) is at the state and local level. Your state may or may not compel them to write an IEP/504 when a student is not enrolled. The school will obviously be happy to have him enroll. 

So they must do evals but they don't have to write an IEP/504. I suggest you punt honestly on the question of enrollment, defer in your mind the question of 504/IEP, and focus on getting thorough evals. Everything starts with thorough evals.

If you think you are going to enroll him, you might consider *waiting* on the ps evals right now till you have the private evals in hand. Your best legal protections for timeline are the first time around and private evals, if you can make them happen, will give you more information to advocate for him. There's no *advantage* to doing the ps evals first in that scenario and some disadvantages. 

If you are confident you are not planning to enroll and you just want evals now, proceed forward. However this is an opportunity to get multi-factored evals, meaning evals with not only a psych but also SLP, OT, PT, etc. You should be looking at every one of those areas and advocating for thorough evals. And you can't just say "Hey can we make them thorough." You'll need to provide evidence to compel them to run the tests, which means you have to be brutally honest about what you're seeing. If you talk it through here on the boards, we can help you develop a hit list.

[PeterPan]

36 minutes ago, mmasc said:

It’s definitely the whole team. I got info about the 504 Act (?) and it also said something about “If an individual evaluation is recommended to determine whether your child is a child with a disability and is in need of special education and related services, the committee will determine the assessments required to ensure that the evaluation is sufficiently comprehensive.” That would be IEP, correct??

No, look up the process in your state. In our state the team assembles, agrees to what areas will be assessed and why (ie. the limits of what they're probably doing), gets you to sign that form. They then run all that testing and reassemble to present their components for the multi-factored eval. Writing an IEP or 504 is *later*. 

You've already said enough that they're bringing the whole team together and not pussyfooting around. This is the meeting that starts the ball rolling. Remember, these people see LOTS OF KIDS. They have pictures of how scenarios come together and it's all going to happen very fast. If you want more than average or have an unusual or complex situation, you need to walk in knowing what tests you want run or what areas need to be eval'ed. They're going to be asking you to sign forms and it's going to feel fast. This is not a chit chat meeting. This is a zip zoom, thanks, let's run these, sign here. 

Again, if you KNOW you're considering enrolling him, I would wait until you have private evals. 

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, mmasc said:

I think I’m going to get a few samples of his work ready and go ahead and submit those, along with his Stanford 10 results, and my typed info regarding my concerns (there’s a parent form I can fill out). Maybe if I send all of this ahead of time they’ll actually have time to look at it and review it before the meeting. Who knows though. I was cautious to “put it all out there”, but you guys have made me feel like that’s actually the right way to go, so I appreciate the advice. 

Why are you submitting test scores? They'll run their own achievement testing. The only reason would be to show significant discrepancy in spite of adequate instruction AND intervention. You show those scores and they are good, it undercuts your case. You show the scores and they're poor, they blame you as the teacher.

What is actually going on? What is the problem? 

Yes, you should beyond put it all out there. This is the time to be more brutally honest about what is not working than you would be with anyone in your life. This is like you and your gyno level honest. 

A private neuropsych is going to spend 4-6 hours testing and see it all. The ps is going to spend maybe 1 hour with the psych and in that time come to some quick conclusions. The private will hold your hand and the ps is usually getting referrals from a teacher who is saying what she has seen, why it's affecting the dc's ability to access their education. The private evals are broad and fishing, trying to be thorough. The ps evals are tight and aimed at getting the kid able to function. 

So think like a teacher and be very clear and targeted. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, mmasc said:

social worker

That's interesting. Is that exactly what the notification letter you received says? In our state there's a form they send you saying who will be attending the IEP meeting. 

[kbutton]

30 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You'll need to provide evidence to compel them to run the tests, which means you have to be brutally honest about what you're seeing. If you talk it through here on the boards, we can help you develop a hit list.

Yep!

20 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, you should beyond put it all out there. This is the time to be more brutally honest about what is not working than you would be with anyone in your life. This is like you and your gyno level honest. 

Yep, again! If your kid melts down, refuses work, can't handle more than 2 hours of work per day, gets out his seat every time things get hard, etc. All of this. 

Some husbands are useless or a deficit in these areas, but if your DH is on board and conversant with the issues (and won't throw you under the bus), they will likely listen to a man better. I hate to say it, but it's true. When my DH said to them, "What kind of job can he hold in the future if he's all done in by a partial day of work?," they sat up and paid attention. He mostly let me talk, but then he provided the boldface type for all my concerns, in a manner of speaking. 

My older son was in the category of good scores but falls apart. Later evaluations showed really niche language issues on top of all of our other stuff. These things are like layers of an onion. Some school psychs care about that; some just want to move kids through. My second kiddo was borderline everything but added up to qualifying under Other Health Impairment. 

In both cases, it did matter that I had to stand on my head and sing The Star Spangled Banner to get things working. Even if a problem was somewhat fixed, if it was still gumming up the works, they took that into consideration of the overall functioning. Some schools would not, but we managed to pass that persuasive enough bar to get what we needed.

[mmasc]

26 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's interesting. Is that exactly what the notification letter you received says? In our state there's a form they send you saying who will be attending the IEP meeting. 

I got a letter stating the people listed above as the ones being present. Yes, social worker is listed. No idea why, other than standard. 

[mmasc]

Well, regarding submitting the Stanford test results, I’m torn now. I was going to bc they specifically stated that test scores could be shown, but I’m torn bc of this:

1) it *clearly* shows his Lexile has basically stayed the same over at least two years. (In spite of us doing reading and comprehension things, of course)

2) almost all subjects are consistently below grade level and have been on all 3 tests (grade 3,4, and 6 are the only years tested)

BUT!!

3) for some crazy reason his math turned out ok last year even though he struggles mightily with this and definitely had accommodations at home. The test does show at least barely on grade level. 
 

So, what do you think? Show them or not? Why would showing poor test results make it look like I’m a poor teacher? I’d they’re going to think that, wouldn’t they think it anyway bc of his current work samples? I mean, either they’re going to believe that I actually teach him or they’re not, right??

[mmasc]

Re: enrolling him. I 100% will not be enrolling him in the public school. However, this state is interesting because they DO allow homeschoolers to enroll in up to 3 CORE subjects at the school. So I would think it would be in their best interest to “get it right” bc to the best of their knowledge, my ds could end up in their classroom(s) whether I homeschool or public school him. 

[mmasc]

@kbutton my dh would completely back me up. However, he will not be at this meeting.

[kbutton]

5 minutes ago, mmasc said:

So, what do you think? Show them or not? Why would showing poor test results make it look like I’m a poor teacher? I’d they’re going to think that, wouldn’t they think it anyway bc of his current work samples? I mean, either they’re going to believe that I actually teach him or they’re not, right??

I think I would go by symptoms, anecdotes, work samples, etc. and try to make them test. But I am not solid on that. 

I was fortunate to have some outside opinions--for instance, the SLP tipped me off that if we got information back about social skills (for my kid with autism), that it could be helpful. We solicited feedback from his Sunday School teacher (a retired teacher) on standardized forms that she provided. We made sure that anyone who filled out those forms knew that we needed data whether we liked the answers on those forms or not, so please be brutally honest. 

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, mmasc said:

@kbutton my dh would completely back me up. However, he will not be at this meeting.

If you rescheduled, could he make a meeting? I have rescheduled when this has happened. They really don't want to look like they are keeping a parent out of a meeting. 

[Tree Frog]

Are you in Texas by chance? I have a friend who is a spec ed teacher and just started a business and is giving a free 45 min consultation.

"Parents of children who have been diagnosed with a disability…If you would like some questions answered or want to know what questions to ask, give me a call or book a free consultation session with me! I am here to serve you!"

[mmasc]

1 minute ago, Tree Frog said:

Are you in Texas by chance? I have a friend who is a spec ed teacher and just started a business and is giving a free 45 min consultation.

"Parents of children who have been diagnosed with a disability…If you would like some questions answered or want to know what questions to ask, give me a call or book a free consultation session with me! I am here to serve you!"

I’m not, but thanks for asking!

[mmasc]

10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

If you rescheduled, could he make a meeting? I have rescheduled when this has happened. They really don't want to look like they are keeping a parent out of a meeting. 

Maybe? I’ll need to check. I was so excited to actually get an appointment, that I just took it.

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, mmasc said:

Re: enrolling him. I 100% will not be enrolling him in the public school. However, this state is interesting because they DO allow homeschoolers to enroll in up to 3 CORE subjects at the school. So I would think it would be in their best interest to “get it right” bc to the best of their knowledge, my ds could end up in their classroom(s) whether I homeschool or public school him. 

I do not think the quality of the evals will vary based on whether you're enrolling or not. I've found ps people to be decent, ethical, and well-intentioned. They will give you what the evals their ps typically provides.

4 hours ago, mmasc said:

Why would showing poor test results make it look like I’m a poor teacher?

Look at it from their perspective. The scores will show something is up, but they won't show WHAT. They will look for evidence to indicate why the scores are low. You will want to cover your butt and show that you have provided consistent education (take some textbooks, work samples, etc.) AND evidence of intervention (using a tutor, using intervention materials, whatever) for any areas that have 1.5 standard deviations or more of discrepancy. Hopefully they'll look at it very graciously, take your claims of the work you've done at face value (which is how my ps has always treated me), and sort it out. Not all ps do this and sometimes they will blame the parent. 

4 hours ago, mmasc said:

I was going to bc they specifically stated that test scores could be shown,

Yes, test scores are a good way to provide evidence that compels them to eval.

4 hours ago, mmasc said:

1) it *clearly* shows his Lexile has basically stayed the same over at least two years. (In spite of us doing reading and comprehension things, of course)

What do you think is the cause of this? Did this dc have speech therapy or language issues? How old is this dc now? (I've lost track of who you're having eval'ed, sorry.) This is something to hone in on, both because you have the data showing something is up AND because it can be an iceberg situation that means more is going on. If you can get some good guesses about what that more is or get some evidence, you can compel them to eval the areas that could be causing it. For instance, if language issues are at play and you can bring some evidence, you can compel them possibly to run more thorough language evals than they might typically.

4 hours ago, mmasc said:

2) almost all subjects are consistently below grade level and have been on all 3 tests (grade 3,4, and 6 are the only years tested)

Again, what do you think is the cause of this? Mainly look at the math and LA scores and then look for significant discrepancy. So being 1.5 standard deviations below the mean OR not making consistent progress each year. 

I think you may need to look at your scores more carefully to know how to read them and determine significance. Ps achievement testing kicks out grade levels and gives them statistical tools to determine significance. The Stanford it looks like kicks out percentiles and stanines. 

5 hours ago, mmasc said:

3) for some crazy reason his math turned out ok last year even though he struggles mightily with this and definitely had accommodations at home. The test does show at least barely on grade level. 

It's the joys of bright kids with disabilities. The first psych we used (don't get me started, like really don't get me started) said ds couldn't possibly have a math SLD because "he tested fine". Jerk. Ds is so clearly dyscalculic. He's also math gifted. He's just a funky mix. 

5 hours ago, mmasc said:

I mean, either they’re going to believe that I actually teach him or they’re not, right??

Oh something in the middle. You're going to go in showing you've been thorough and they're going to see that and respect it. Unfortunately, not everyone showing up is you (thorough, organized, consistent, diligent) and the ps has seen it all probably. So just make it easy for them to see that you've been consistent (or that there were reasons why you weren't) and that the issues are not due to lack of instruction.

If he hasn't made progress (per the scores) on reading in two years, why do you think that is? I'm just asking because it's interesting. Language? Vision? Lack of independent reading on the dc's part? Covid/stress/anxiety the last two years? Attention/ADHD issues? And what have you done to address or eliminate the explanations? If you think it's due to phonological processing/dyslexia, have you pursued tutoring or used intervention materials? 

On the math, you should have test scores (and they'll certainly see when they do theirs) for computation vs. word problems. You might think about which parts of math are hard and which go well and why. That way you can explain to them what the trouble is and why he could test well but still be having problems. As you say, if the scores are average, they're not going to care, lol. However there could be certainly areas that are weak that they can be compelled to care about. 

5 hours ago, mmasc said:

my dh would completely back me up. However, he will not be at this meeting.

Yeah, you don't need that. You just need to have your ducks in a row, which is why we're talking with you. If this were private evals, you could be all slow and pleasant and let them sort it out. With ps evals, you will get the bare minimum in evals unless you push and compel. And I'm sort of making the assumption (not knowing your kid) that this is a situation with some subtle complexity, an iceberg, and that you need some digging, not a run of the mill basic answer. So if you want them to dig, which they can be compelled to do, you need to do the legwork on the front end. 

I'll say it more plainly. You see that list of attendees? Those translate into all the people offering to eval your kid. It's a one stop shop! So you look at each one and say ok, what could they do for my kid and how do I prove that they should? And then, how do I demonstrate that they should run more than just a basic screener but that they might actually be compelled to run more detailed, specific tests based on evidence I provide?

That's how you do it. You work through the list and you go ok this is the basic thing they could do but this is the more detailed thing they could do if I provided evidence. 

[Storygirl]

Lots of good advice so far. I'll just add a couple of things.

I would not want to go to a school meeting without my DH. Just saying. And I've been to tons of them. Remember that parents are equal members of the IEP team by law (no IEP yet, but still there is a team), and you will double yourself by taking him. Now, there are sometimes reasons that the other parent would be a poor person to have in the meeting. But, if not, keep in mind that there will be decisions being made there, and you will be the sole person making them for your child and family. I lean highly on my DH being at all meetings, even though I generally do 95 percent of the talking.

Secondly, write down what you would like to say and have copies to hand out. At least that is what I did. I wrote down my concerns. I listed the ways that I accommodated and the reasons that I chose certain curricula. If my kid struggled with a program, and I had to switch, I documented that switch to show that I was responding to the need and also how great the need was (for the record, I have two kids with IEPs who have very different disabilities -- one has dyslexia and a math disability).

On a related note, I assume this is your 11 year old from your signature and see that you use Apples and Pears with him. You should lay out for them that this is a program created for struggling learners and explain why you selected it for him.  Remember that they don't know homeschool curricula, so show them that you are using materials meant for helping his areas of concern. That's just as an example. You can do the same thing with math.

You should know that the school will not diagnose dyslexia but would call it Specific Learning Disability in Reading. And the same for math. Schools are allowed to call it dyslexia, but most don't. If you have read about dyslexia, you may know that math difficulties often go hand in hand, specifically having trouble remembering math facts. Working memory is commonly a problem for dyslexics, as well. And ADHD is often also present. If you see issues in any of these areas, document it and be prepared to explain what you see.

The school can decide that there is NOT a reason to suspect a disability and send you on your merry way without doing any testing, so, yes, let all of the hard things hang out for them to see.

Something that was not completely clear when I was doing this for the first time is that social communication, language issues, and pragmatics are tested by an SLP, so the SPEECH or SLP box would need to be checked, or these things will not be tested. Maybe you don't have concerns in those areas, but I wanted you to be aware.

Don't be afraid to tell them that you don't understand what they mean or what the process is. You can always say things like, "What I hear you saying is that blah blah blah" and have them confirm. TAKE NOTES. Write down the name and title of everyone who is there.

 

[Storygirl]

It's very important to educate yourself as much as possible about the special education laws before you go into that meeting. Once you sign paperwork, you can be locked in to the plan for testing, so you need to understand what you are signing, and you need to understand your legal rights, because this is a process protected under the law.

This book is super helpful https://www.amazon.com/Complete-IEP-Guide-Advocate-Special/dp/1413327427/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1FYQWCRQ7NJJR&keywords=NOLO+special+education&qid=1647575680&sprefix=nolo+special+education%2Caps%2C88&sr=8-1

And yes, look at your state department of education's website. I've spent hours reading the info on mine, and I've also emailed and called the people there to ask questions.  Some things are confusing.

If your husband really can't be there, consider taking a friend with you who can take notes during the meeting, so that you can focus on the conversation. And, yes, it's fine to tell them that you need to think about what they've said and talk it over with your husband before signing anything. You can ask them to send you documents to sign digitally from your home, if you want time to consider before agreeing to anything.

[Storygirl]

Here is the federal guideline for the timetable (yes, this is all spelled out in the law). Your state may have a different time table, but the school is not allowed to take LONGER than this.

1) Must hold a meeting to consider the request to evaluate a child suspected of a disability (google CHILD FIND) within 30 days of receiving a written request. It sounds like you did this with a phone call, so it would be a good idea just to send them a note with the official written request. My state has a document that I could use for this written request, but a letter will suffice. At this point, it sounds like they are convening the meeting, but I've found it's always good to do things in writing.

2) IF at the meeting, the team agrees that a disability is suspected, the school has 60 days to run the tests and write the reports. You will sign a paper at the meeting that will list out the areas that need to be tested, and it's important for that list to be complete. Be aware that part of the process is observing the child in the classroom, which is hard to do for homeschoolers, They may ask you to bring him in to work with them. I've heard that sometimes they would come to the child's home to observe homeschooling. Just be aware that this is part of it. They have to determine that there has been adequate instruction, and this is not any kind of suggestion that you are not doing a good job but is part of the law. Schools handle this differently. For the other testing, they will have the student come to the school to meeting with the psychologist, who runs most of the tests. There should be ability (IQ testing like the WISC) and achievement testing run, and it often takes more than one session to complete. All of the testing has to be done within that 60 day timeframe.

3) There will then be another meeting to go over the results. IF the team *remember that parents are equal members of the team* decides that special education is needed, an IEP can be written. THERE WILL BE ANOTHER MEETING TO DO THAT.  NOW it's important to know that rules are different for homeschoolers, and in some places, schools are required to test but not required to write an IEP if the child is not enrolled. It's also important for you to know if there are any disability scholarships in your state for homeschoolers with disabilities. In our state, the school does not have to write an IEP; however, the scholarships require an IEP, so schools do write them for that reason.

4) The meeting to write the IEP has to be held within 30 days of the meeting that determined the child was eligible.

Schools are not allowed to take the summer off from this process, which is probably why they put a rush on your request. They want to get this done before the end of the school year.

 

[Storygirl]

Since they gave you a document about 504s, you should know the difference. If you don't, we can talk more about that.

But for now, know that they COULD look at the info that you present and say, "okay, let's just write a 504 for this kid and not go through all of the evaluations." Because evaluations are not required for the 504.

DO NOT agree to a 504 before evaluations have been run. Once you agree to a 504, it would be much harder to backtrack and get them to agree to run evaluations after all.

Also, I would keep the appointment for the private evaluations that you set up. You can take all of the info that the school gives you and present it to the neuropsych, and they can use that information and then do more on top of it.

Oh, if you suspect dyslexia, be sure to ask the school to run a CTOPP, which tests for phonological processing.

If after all of the evaluation process, the school says that he does not qualify as a student with a disability who needs an IEP, at that point, they can still offer a 504, and at that point, you could accept.

[mmasc]

Thank you all SO much for graciously offering up your advice. I can always count on this board to help. I’m overwhelmed and will try to hit a few of the points right now. 
 

@PeterPan My short answer to why, all the whys, is “I don’t know.”  I mean honestly, I just don’t know why my accommodations aren’t making everything good, why his lexile only went up 35 points, why anything. But I am an avid researcher and if I had to give my answer to why, I’d say regarding the reading testing/lexile on the Stanford—my guess is twofold: 1) he didn’t understand the passage or questions and got totally bored with reading them and/or 2) he easily forgets things. For example, yesterday he didn’t know what antonym meant. Have it taught that *specifically* in the last year or two, well no, but I’ve taught it enough that it seems like something he would’ve known. But questions like that add up to missed questions, correct?

@Storygirl thank you for those tips. My sig needs updated, but yes, this is my DS who isn’t 11, but 13, now. He has finished Apples and Pears recently. I never thought to show or explain that what I’ve used is specifically for LDs. He also used Dancing Bears and High Noon, neither of which I even still have since it wasn’t recent. How do I show or “prove” that I’ve used interventions?
 
Based on my extensive research, my guesses for what I think he has are all of the dys LDs, working memory, and probably adhd (although he’s very active, he doesn’t bounce off the walls or impulsively interrupt people, so not sure...)  

The fact that this meeting is virtual actually makes me even more nervous. I’d honestly rather walk into a school building and present my case. I am going to feel uncomfortable sitting in a car, on my phone, trying to show and explain a pile of papers/ books in my lap. 😔 Part of me just wants to cancel and wait the 8-12 months for the private evals, but that sure is a long time😔

Edited March 18, 2022 by mmasc
Typo

[mmasc]

One more question: What about the DORA or ADAM test? Are those tests the public schools would know? Ds hasn’t taken the Adam (although I’ve thought about it!) but he did take the DORA through Seton for 2 years in a row while we were doing all of the remediation with Dancing Bears and High Noon. (So, probably about 3 years ago). Should I give him these tests now? I could use those instead of the Stanford 10, which I feel is overstating his math. 

[Storygirl]

3 hours ago, mmasc said:

Thank you all SO much for graciously offering up your advice. I can always count on this board to help. I’m overwhelmed and will try to hit a few of the points right now. 
 

@PeterPan My short answer to why, all the whys, is “I don’t know.”  I mean honestly, I just don’t know why my accommodations aren’t making everything good, why his lexile only went up 35 points, why anything. But I am an avid researcher and if I had to give my answer to why, I’d say regarding the reading testing/lexile on the Stanford—my guess is twofold: 1) he didn’t understand the passage or questions and got totally bored with reading them and/or 2) he easily forgets things. For example, yesterday he didn’t know what antonym meant. Have it taught that *specifically* in the last year or two, well no, but I’ve taught it enough that it seems like something he would’ve known. But questions like that add up to missed questions, correct?

@Storygirl thank you for those tips. My sig needs updated, but yes, this is my DS who isn’t 11, but 13, know. He has finished Apples and Pears recently. I never thought to show or explain that what I’ve used is specifically for LDs. He also used Dancing Bears and High Noon, neither of which I even still have since it wasn’t recent. How do I show or “prove” that I’ve used interventions?
 
Based on my extensive research, my guesses for what I think he has are all of the dys LDs, working memory, and probably adhd (although he’s very active, he doesn’t bounce off the walls or impulsively interrupt people, so not sure...)  

The fact that this meeting is virtual actually makes me even more nervous. I’d honestly rather walk into a school building and present my case. I am going to feel uncomfortable sitting in a car, on my phone, trying to show and explain a pile of papers/ books in my lap. 😔 Part of me just wants to cancel and wait the 8-12 months for the private evals, but that sure is a long time😔

Just write it down in a Word document. I would do something like:

Introduction: Explain that you have home educated two older siblings and that the resources and methods used with them needed to be changed and  modified to account for the needs of this student. Because he learns atypically.

Specially designed instruction: (use this heading, because those specific words mean special education/intervention)

Dancing Bears -- Describe this program's methodology briefly, indicating that it was designed for dyslexic students

Apples and Pears spelling -- Describe as above

And so on, listing special resources that you have used.

Also list here any outside therapy that he has received, in case you've done any OT or speech or whatever

Then make a second section with headings by school year:

First Grade (2015-2016 or whatever) -- and put here a list of the special resources that you used (already described in your top section, so you don't need to go into detail).

Also for each grade level, list your observations of what he struggled with. And what you did to adapt instruction. For example, you may have started with a more traditional spelling program, and somewhere along the way realized that it wasn't working. Write down what you started with and why you switched and whether the new choice worked better.

You don't need to list out the regular curriculum that you used that worked well. Focus only on what you needed to do to accommodate his learning differences.

Be sure to document what you've noticed about his memory and attention.

Type all of this up and send it to them in advance of the meeting. You could just take it to the meeting, but since it is virtual, it will be more convenient for them to have it in hand to look at ahead of time.

This is your "proof" of the intervention that you have attempted and his response to it.

 

[Storygirl]

We've had a lot of virtual meetings with the school since 2020, and they've usually been fine. We did have one meeting early on, where the school did not use cameras, and we could not see the people we were talking to, which was a problem. But since then, schools have become very proficient at virtual meetings. They have a lot of experience doing things this way, by now, and it will go fine for you.

I do not understand why you would do the meeting from your car. You should be able to do it from your house. A computer screen will be MUCH better than a phone, because you will see all of the participants Brady-Bunch style, each with their head in a little window, and it will be super hard to see them all on a phone screen. I would not recommend using a phone for the meeting. I would consider a computer or IPad to be essential for this. And you need to be in a building with good wifi, not in a vehicle.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

If you will not be able to do it at home, for some reason -- your DH works from home, and there is no privacy? -- book a study room at your local public library and do it from there, where you can have good wifi and spread your papers out on a paper and have a desk for note taking.

I don't want to keep repeating things, but I think this is important, so I will bring it up again. Consider not doing this alone. Reschedule for a time when your husband can be with you or take a friend who can provide some support (even silently, it will be helpful) and take notes for you.

It's absolutely completely normal to find this process nerve wracking. I've been doing evaluation meetings privately and through the schools now for eight years, and it's hard. Sometimes the meetings go very amicably, and sometimes you have to be willing to advocate hard for your point of view, and sometimes things happen that can be surprising (in good or bad ways). I personally would not want to do it alone, although I know that some people do.

[Storygirl]

And be sure to tell them that you think that reading comprehension is a concern. It is possible to have a reading comprehension disability. Reading comprehension can have many root causes. It can be related to phonological processing, if the brain is working so hard to decode that it doesn't have bandwidth to also consider meaning. It can be related to attention or working memory. It often is connected to gaps in background knowledge and vocabulary, where students didn't pick up on things that other kids kind of absorbed naturally, so that they have to be directly taught things that are normally learned by osmosis. It can be due to social thinking deficits for kiddos with autism and/or ADHD, who don't understand the social interactions in the story. Sometimes kids have trouble understanding figurative language, if they are a concrete thinker, or have trouble following plots that are not straightforward and use things like flashbacks or alternating characters.

A HUGE one is not understanding inference, so that anything that is not explicitly spelled out in a text is not grasped.

Think about what you see and list out if any of these explanations seem to fit.

In your document, in addition to a section explaining resources, and a section detailing what you did for each grade, you can include a section where you spell out your concerns.

Concerns:

*Reading comprehension
*Phonological processing
* Working memory
* Attention
* Math -- list whatever problems you see with math
* Social thinking and language (you haven't mentioned this, but I'm throwing it out there, because often people don't understand what is lumped into this category and don't realize that there are issues. Ask us for more info if you have questions about this)

And so on.

This way, your document will clearly spell out for them what you think needs to be tested.

This is a lot to do over two weeks, along with researching the special education process and continuing to home educate your kids. Can you announce a spring break for your kids, so that you can put a hold on teaching them, while you prepare for the meeting? Can you ask the school to push the meeting back by a week to give you more time to prepare? These are just ideas that I'm throwing out for you.

If you keep the meeting date, YOU CAN DO IT!! It seems like a lot, and it is, but YOU CAN DO IT! You are doing something really helpful for your son, and even if it doesn't go completely smoothly, it will still all be okay. It does sound like your school personnel are responsive, which is a good thing.

[mmasc]

Oh my goodness, THANK YOU @Storygirl for all of this! I have the notes typed out on my phone and I typed a paragraph on the info sheet they sent me (I have not returned it yet), but I never thought to just do a full length, typed-out document listing everything like that. It will definitely take some time to go back to first grade to show what we used and switched from, but I think I can do it. I will spend a ton of time on it this weekend, going from my notes and using your outline and specific headings. I do need to research what the SLP did, as it was several years ago. I also need to look and see what testing she did. Maybe it was the CTOPP that @PeterPanmentioned?? Lots to look up, as all of that was years ago. 
 

re: phone in the car. Yes, this needs to be private and quiet. My house is neither, with 3 boys and 2 barking dogs 😂. When dh gets home, I am going to see if 1)he’s available at the appt time and if so, 2) would his office be quiet and usable at that time. Then I could just go there and he and I could use a computer and both be present for the meeting. 

[mmasc]

Just found my records for the SLP. We took him at age 7 years 3 months. She only did the TAPS evaluation. Nothing else. I’ll also add that she wasn’t helpful and we discontinued going after 6 months of working with her. 

[Lecka]

When I have had a virtual meeting recently, I have had the option to go to school and sit in the conference room, but probably only have one person there in-person, and the rest all virtual to that room.  It’s what they do for people who don’t have good Internet access at home.  It’s different different places, but maybe it is an option.  I like your idea of using a home office better, though.  I think that is a good solution.  
 

Edit:  I have actually been doing a weekly Zoom on my phone with a volunteer group, and my comfort level is high to participate and take notes.  However it would be extremely difficult to share notes or show anything on a screen.

 

I wonder if you could provide things like that ahead of time, and then reference them?  It’s hard to know exactly, but maybe it’s an option.  It might not be a big deal to prepare something short and drop it off.  And a school secretary ime would be helpful to make copies and leave things in boxes (like their little mailboxes) for people.  I don’t think you have to do that, but if it would make it less stressful overall, it could be worth doing.  You could also make a pdf and email it.  I would not make it too long but if there was an example you think would matter, I think go for it.

Some intervention materials are labeled tier 1, 2, or 3, so if you used something labeled with a tier, that is something.  But not everything is labeled that way.  Things labeled that way are intended for school intervention, so things intended more for tutors or parents or that aren’t as new or that are used in another country may not say they are a certain tier.  But if you Google and your curriculum says it’s a certain tier — that is meaningful.  Tier 1 is classroom curriculum, Tier 2 is classroom curriculum plus extra help for students who need extra help, and Tier 3 is a high level of extra help not tied to a classroom curriculum.  So to some extent it may be meaningful to them if you say you tried Tier 1, it didn’t work, and then you used Tier 3.  But then it’s hard to know what is going to be meaningful — places I have lived would be familiar with this terminology, though.  
 

Calling something an intervention, remediation, for dyslexia, etc, curriculum, I would think would be meaningful.  

Edited March 18, 2022 by Lecka

[kbutton]

If you opt to make .pdf files of work samples and such, we use a free Adobe app for that on our phones. It's super easy and faster than scanning on a printer or scanner. 

https://www.adobe.com/acrobat/mobile/scanner-app.html

 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, mmasc said:

Just found my records for the SLP. We took him at age 7 years 3 months. She only did the TAPS evaluation. Nothing else. I’ll also add that she wasn’t helpful and we discontinued going after 6 months of working with her. 

You need to bone up on language (by talking with us) so you can advocate for THOUROUGH SLP evals. 

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, mmasc said:

re: phone in the car. Yes, this needs to be private and quiet. My house is neither, with 3 boys and 2 barking dogs 😂. When dh gets home, I am going to see if 1)he’s available at the appt time and if so, 2) would his office be quiet and usable at that time. Then I could just go there and he and I could use a computer and both be present for the meeting. 

He takes the boys and dogs out. Nobody home or you get room at library like Story said.

[mmasc]

Ok, I’ve just spent the last 3 hours typing a full document of our interventions and school timeline. Whew. I hope it’s good. It’s a lot to try and document to show what problems I’m seeing, what testing and interventions we’ve done, etc while trying to keep it concise so that they actually read it. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, mmasc said:

Ok, I’ve just spent the last 3 hours typing a full document

Good job!! Sounds like this will be great. It's not so so much whether they read every word. It just conveys very quickly that you're thorough, have not been floozy, and that they should not be blaming you. Unfortunately all explanations have to be on the table and you're taking that one off by showing you've been thorough. 

Just so you know, they could throw a wild card at you asking to *observe* you working with him. I would encourage you to turn this down. They are welcome to come to your home and work with him to assess behavior, academic, etc., but having them observe *you* turns it about *you* instead of him. And yes, this is something they'll sometimes suggest. Remember, they're winging it when they eval homeschoolers, so sometimes they get ill thought out ideas. This should not be about your instruction, your qualifications, whatever. You've demonstrated with your doc that you've been thorough and diligent and most children, barring a disability, would have been fine with that. 

Make sure you provide the doc ahead of time to them, preferably a week ahead or more if possible. If they get it late, it's hard for them to have a chance to read it to whatever degree they're going to. You don't care if they skim, but you want them to have that chance. They may have questions from this that you aren't anticipating or notice patterns you hadn't. 

Ok, I was on my phone before so I want to bring up the thing about the TAPS and the SLP. That's an auditory processing test. Do you recall what was going on to prompt her to administer that? Why did she only run that test and NOTHING else?? That is totally odd.

Once you have auditory processing issues on the table, you have a much more complex situation. The school can be legally compelled to pay for an audiology eval, but for this stage *they* will probably pick the audiologist. You would be better off, if that is suspected, to get some APD testing with a highly experienced audiologist *now* pronto, before the evals, because it would give them more to work with.

Auditory processing issues are *language* issues and as such affect every aspect of school work and are something you can make the school care about. But when you think of them as the *auditory processing of language* you see why we were saying bone up on language.

The typical SLP eval in the ps is going to use something like administering the CELF. It's a screener tool, one stop shop, the mcdonald's of language. Your kid will pass it and nothing will happen and you'll have lost your chance. They might also talk with him for a while and informally assess articulation, syntax, vocabulary, narrative language, etc. to see if anything jumps out at them. However IF YOU CAN DEMONSTRATE that he's flagging in more areas (yes, yes!), you could compel them to run more detailed tools. And they're not going to say oh yeah we just run a basic screener on everyone when they whine and they won't tell you what tests. It's not your job to say what tests. It's your job to know that if you want MORE than that screener you have to demonstrate that those areas of language are suspected of impacting his ability to access his education and need to be eval'ed.

-narrative language--ability to narrate fiction or expository models or original thoughts/experiences using original language

-pragmatics--social skills, conversation skills, etc.

-metalinguistics--more advanced, an area that is often affected in high IQ kids, includes inferences, multiple meanings, etc.  

-vocabulary--not so mch knowing lots of words (which he might memorize) but being able to categorize, organize, and retrieve the language. 

-syntax--grammar, sentence complexity

-dichotic listening--understanding language in background noise

-phonological processing--decoding/encoding

-problem solving--not math but life

Look up each of these words, learn the jist of what they are, and then think how what you've been seeing (since you have worked with him more than anyone) possibly indicate issues in those areas.

Those are the specific flag words you need to be saying so you can give evidence that can compel them to run *more detailed testing* that will actually find his areas of weakness. Each of those has specific tests they can be compelled to run if you provide the evidence. 

Fwiw, some kids have issues with auditory processing or dichotic listening (understanding speech in background noise) but do ok on the TAPS and even the SCAN screening portion. My dd was like that, sigh. Her issues were always kind of subclinical but present, like a nibbling to death by ducks. Maybe it meant we had done so much good instruction? But some kids, like my ds, are more blatant and with the right tests the issues will show up, boom, in blazing glory.

You're not invested in what the tests say. All you're saying is what you see and what areas you suspect. It's OK to say that because it's how the school rolls. If you want thorough testing, you want to give as much of this information to them as you can. This kind of testing would take many many hours to do privately and the school, if they own the tests (which they don't always), is still going to run just what is needed and defer, as a cost saving measure, to what takes less time. These are not private evals, lol. However you CAN make things happen by providing evidence. Hopefully they'll be looking for the areas, but you can push that forward to. You are an EQUAL MEMBER of the team, even though it doesn't feel that way.

Just from the bits you've described, I'd put careful attention to language, attention, and pragmatics. Pragmatics is eval'ed by the SLPs, which will seem really odd but there you go. Have you ever wondered if this dc is on the spectrum? If you have, this is a time to be really honest with yourself and honest with them. If you have the EVIDENCE, this is the time to bring it out. That can be a way to push forward into these other areas. Sometimes you'll even luck out and have a school team that is ADOS-trained! It's becoming increasingly common in our state, though honestly it's mostly in more affluent school districts. But you never know. It's a reason to be cautious (pushing for thorough evals, recognizing the limits of the tools they're using, not accepting trite/incomplete answers) if the team is *not* ADOS trained. 

You're going to learn a lot! Think positive. The system is not designed to give you everything you might dream of, but in my experience the people on the team are well-intentioned and going to try to help you within the limits/confines of how the system works. I've found I learn a lot and appreciate seeing things from a different perspective. Sometimes they bring new methodologies and eyes, which brings new *vision* for where my dc could get to. There's a saying and right now it has slipped my mind, but it's about the person who is in a position to help you. You don't want to be patted on the back (too much) because that person is not in a position to help you. You want some vision that says yes, mostly there, now here's what is missing and where we could get to. 

Keep us posted! This would be a lot of learning, no matter what, and there's no getting around it. It's not like oh do private evals and then you don't have to do this. No, this is why all of us here are therapy ninjas, hahaha. We had to learn enough to be able to advocate and it's work, sigh. But you've got this. Keep us posted. 🙂

Edited March 19, 2022 by PeterPan

[Terabith]

I will argue for a minute that when we got our initial IEP, it was much easier because I allowed them to observe me teaching.  We came in with private neuropsych scores, but they were like, "We have to assume insufficient instruction in these cases," until they came and watched us at home.  After that, they rubber stamped us in for some great services like private Wilson instruction.