What are your expectations for DE and grades?

[ByGrace3]

My dd is completing her first year of DE. She did 2 courses through Liberty DE in the fall and then she is taking 3 courses plus a lab at the local CC this spring. Going into spring she had a 4.0 unweighted GPA (including several outsourced courses). This semester has been challenging and I don't know where her grades will end up...she is having to work pretty hard in a couple of them. Comp 1 is easy. Bio she is working hard but has a chance at an A, College Algebra she will either be an A or a B . . . but the bio lab? ugh I think she has a C and I am hoping for a B. She loves biology so it is breaking my heart that she is having a  not great experience. Her lab reports all have solid grades but the tests are proving to be a problem... all this to say with the high stress level and the meh grades, we are rethinking next year. She will still continue DE but maybe less classes? I will for sure let her take point in the decision but I am even torn in how to advise her. A couple of B's are not the end of the world...I got a B in college Bio. It's a tough class. But I think she is questioning her readiness... what are your thoughts? Do you have certain grade expectations for DE classes? If she couldn't get at least B's I would regroup, but I am leaning towards B's are not going to jeopardize her GPA. (She is a terrible test taker so she isn't aiming for super competitive schools).

On a random note, any ideas on how to improve test taking abilities? (I don't mean test prep for ACT/SAT, just tests in general)

 

ETA: She is in 11th grade. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by ByGrace3

[BusyMom5]

First I would put things into perspective- is she going into a bio field?  Did the class prepare her for the next level class?  Or is she done with Bio?  How did the teacher impact her grade?  Is there a better way of choosing a professor?  Same questions for math.  Where are her weak areas, and what are some strategies to help?  What study skills, organizational skills, and time management skills does she need to work on?

FWIW, my college freshman got her first Bs- in Calc 1 snd Bio!  I'm not upset bc she learned a lot- and not just about the content.  Do a better job picking classes, get help early by going to the professor if you aren't happy with your grade, do a better job balancing work time and friends time (hardest lesson for college freshman!!!), some TAs and Profs are incompetent- still your responsibility to learn the material, being sick can wreck your grade- ask for an extension before taking a test while barely able to function- the worst they can say is no.

My poor test taker seemed to learn a lot about test-taking strategies from the ACT prep books.  I also got Learn(ing?) How To Learn by Barbara Oakley.  I started science tests in 8th grade for this reason!  I still expect her tests to not reflect her actual ability, and thats okay, too.  Learning more about how a professor grades csn sometimes help with that.  

My HS Junior is taking 2 classes this spring,  so we are starting slow.  Just learning to navigate BB, communicating with professors, taking notes and studying for tests has been a big enough change.  

[KSera]

What grade is she? I wouldn’t want DE to decrease my kid’s college options nor to have a negative impact on their college GPA in the future. For me, any DE Cs would mean my kid was definitely not ready for the class and I would want Bs to be the exception and not the rule for a student who was otherwise an A student. If the DE grades are notably lower than home grades, I would personally feel they weren’t prepared enough for DE yet. If this is a student younger than a junior, I would expect they’re just not old enough or experienced enough for college level work. 

[8filltheheart]

The biggest issue with DE grades is that they follow them forever.  Is a C the end of the world in general?  No.  It really depends on future goals. A future med student?  That C could be a nail in the coffin. Certain schools? yep.  

I personally wouldn't want my kids DEing unless I knew they were going to make an A.   That comes from my personal perspective that DE is unnecessary until it isn't.  And that" until it isn't" means that they have maxed out all other options and they are incredibly strong in what they know and mature in how they handle themselves.  But, that is our family's personal POV.  Lots of families have a different perspective.

[ByGrace3]

You all are echoing my thoughts ... however... the child I have in front of me is not the one I thought I would have lol if that makes sense. She is incredibly organized, studious, diligent, a delight to work with...but she struggles. She is the kid who works her tail off in outsourced course end up with an 88 or 89 and the teacher bumps her to an A because of her participation and work ethic. This has happened more than once. I don't think this is a kid who will be an all A student in college ever... I could be wrong ... She actually loves biology and will be taking more sciences as she is headed into Exercise Science. However, Biology isn't even really the issue as she has a borderline A/B in there so could very well end up with an A. Math is hard to assess. She says she knows the material -- recognizes it, knows how to do it, still yet doesn't test well. The greatest issue right now is this biology lab. And we cannot ascertain what is going on or why she is getting a C. We know it is the tests but not what is going on. I encouraged her to email professor and ask him for some study tips or to go over the test with her to help her understand what she is doing wrong....I hope that helps. 

 

I guess my big hesitation is -- I always though if you can't get an A, you aren't ready for DE . . . but I am trying to be reasonable and adjust expectations if needed...

Edited March 2, 2022 by ByGrace3

[madteaparty]

These are the vagaries and the price you pay for DE— it’s a 3 month long class (at best) sometimes with limited grading opportunities etc. and sometimes a prof just doesn’t like you (esp a visibly younger person). My DS has had many many college classes, and I can say unequivocally that it was the right decision for him. He had had two Bs, one in a 300 level French class which he took in 9th grade and I don’t want to even talk about the other as it was my fault lol. I will say those two Bs did not hurt his college admission odds but I think a C would have. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by madteaparty

[Arcadia]

tmi

Edited March 25, 2022 by Arcadia

[UmmIbrahim]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

You all are echoing my thoughts ... however... the child I have in front of me is not the one I thought I would have lol if that makes sense. She is incredibly organized, studious, diligent, a delight to work with...but she struggles. She is the kid who works her tail off in outsourced course end up with an 88 or 89 and the teacher bumps her to an A because of her participation and work ethic. This has happened more than once. I don't think this is a kid who will be an all A student in college ever... I could be wrong ... She actually loves biology and will be taking more sciences as she is headed into Exercise Science. However, Biology isn't even really the issue as she has a borderline A/B in there so could very well end up with an A. Math is hard to assess. She says she knows the material -- recognizes it, knows how to do it, still yet doesn't test well. The greatest issue right now is this biology lab. And we cannot ascertain what is going on or why she is getting a C. We know it is the tests but not what is going on. I encouraged her to email professor and ask him for some study tips or to go over the test with her to help her understand what she is doing wrong....I hope that helps. 

I guess my big hesitation is -- I always though if you can't get an A, you aren't ready for DE . . . but I am trying to be reasonable and adjust expectations if needed...

I don't have any particular advice other than to say that all DE is not created equal. I would really take a look at the material that the grades are based on. Do you think that the questions on the exams are fairly based on the material covered in the course? Is the professor clear in setting expectations for the students? Can you compare the material covered with other CC syllabi in comparable courses? Really make sure that the tests aren't "out there" and that the professor is on the level. There are some absolute doozies out there, so I would never look at a student and say "oh, I guess this C or B means you aren't quite ready for college material." If the class is a mess or the professor is a mess (so very common in what I've seen, unfortunately), you really may not know anything about your student's abilities at all. My oldest son mostly took professors that we had vetted with other local homeschoolers and had some wonderful experiences with his DE classes.

That said, we still ended up with two exceptions: one was a math class and one was an organic chemistry class. The prof of the math class was a disaster. She would give different answers to the same question depending on the day. Couldn't make up her mind about which graphing calculators would be allowed (my son had explicitly had his calculator approved by her for exam 1), but then she looked at it again on exam 2 and decided she didn't like it and he had to take the exam without it. Just absolutely off-the-wall inconsistencies in so many situations. Luckily, it was his first CC math class in his first year of DE in tenth grade (Precalc 2, which was not hard for him at the time), and he managed to get an A and run away without any long-term harm done. But, oof, we learned the importance of vetting professors as best as we could from that experience.

The organic chem teacher wasn't as egregious in terms of bizarre, inconsistent behavior, but that class ended up being a mess as well, and my son ended up with his only DE B grade. The tests had significant material not covered in the course (in lectures or in the book). When my son showed the exams to his favorite chem teacher in the department, she didn't understand how the department was allowing the orgo prof to use those exams because they were not aligned with the course. She was actually able to change the situation for future classes by having the department work with the prof, but that didn't help my son during his semester. Overall, DE was great for us, but we were VERY intentional about who we took classes with, and even then, last minute schedule changes left us with two absolute disasters. If my son hadn't been such a strong student, those two duds would have killed his GPA. 

In our experience, CC quality can be all over the map. So much is dependent on the professor, and the grading metrics can be subject to a higher level of volatility than you might find in a high school course. Many times, your grade is based only on 3 or 4 exams for the semester. That puts a LOT of weight on the exam (which tends to be different than a high school course), and can easily reflect poorly on a student if the exams are designed poorly. We have learned to approach DE with extreme caution because of the fact that those grades live FOREVER. I don't want to cut off scholarship options or admissions chances because of a terrible class or a terrible professor. Grades and bad profs don't matter much to me once my kids are in college (pretty sure I don't have any heading to med school where they would need to continue with tippy top GPAs), and I consider those kinds of bad experiences just part of the life lessons you get in college. Not every class or prof is going to be awesome 🙂 

That said, high school is a LOT different than college in terms of the stakes for the future, so I would just say really dig deep into what the classes are covering, how the grades are calculated, and how the professors of the courses are. Good luck to your daughter in finishing up her year strong!

[Farrar]

One take would be oh, she isn't ready, needs more time, etc.

But I think this sounds like a case where the kid will end up at the school that's right for her. Like, a few B's and a C amid a bunch of A's will simply not bar a kid from college. Not by a long shot. They will bar a kid from a super rigorous hard to get into school. But it sounds like as a kid who doesn't test well and struggles with some aspects of learning, that's good. Like, it's going to funnel her towards the sort of schools that she needs anyway. 

This is not to say she shouldn't strive and improve and all that. Just... it doesn't seem like a tragedy. She's working at the performance level you expected in the first place. I agree with dialing it back a little next year and maybe getting a tutor or something sometimes. But... she is who she is, right? I mean, I have a kid like this too. He nearly got a C in his DE sociology class because the class was set up too simply. It was ALL short, timed multiple choice quizzes. It was killer for him. He got a flipping 99% in the DE class with two lengthy research papers, a group project, and a bunch of untimed quizzes that had different types of questions. Like, kids have things that work for them and things that don't, you know? And part of succeeding is choose a college that will cater to that and courses and a major that will as well. You can't do that completely - but you can a little bit.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

18 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

You all are echoing my thoughts ... however... the child I have in front of me is not the one I thought I would have lol if that makes sense. She is incredibly organized, studious, diligent, a delight to work with...but she struggles. She is the kid who works her tail off in outsourced course end up with an 88 or 89 and the teacher bumps her to an A because of her participation and work ethic. This has happened more than once. I don't think this is a kid who will be an all A student in college ever... I could be wrong ... She actually loves biology and will be taking more sciences as she is headed into Exercise Science. However, Biology isn't even really the issue as she has a borderline A/B in there so could very well end up with an A. Math is hard to assess. She says she knows the material -- recognizes it, knows how to do it, still yet doesn't test well. The greatest issue right now is this biology lab. And we cannot ascertain what is going on or why she is getting a C. We know it is the tests but not what is going on. I encouraged her to email professor and ask him for some study tips or to go over the test with her to help her understand what she is doing wrong....I hope that helps. 

 

I guess my big hesitation is -- I always though if you can't get an A, you aren't ready for DE . . . but I am trying to be reasonable and adjust expectations if needed...

I think she needs to do more than email the prof, though that is a good start. 

She should schedule office hours to talk through the exam with the prof, identify where she was graded down, and get clarification on concepts she doesn't understand. 

She may also need to seek help at the campus tutoring center or from the biology department. She may want to seek out students who did well on the exams and ask if they are willing to join a study group. 

[ByGrace3]

9 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

I think she needs to do more than email the prof, though that is a good start. 

She should schedule office hours to talk through the exam with the prof, identify where she was graded down, and get clarification on concepts she doesn't understand. 

She may also need to seek help at the campus tutoring center or from the biology department. She may want to seek out students who did well on the exams and ask if they are willing to join a study group. 

yes, I recommended all those things to her. 

[lmrich]

A lot of the lab classes my kids have taken are only worth credit hour. 

Lab tests are hard... my kids all struggled with them. They never had a lab test in high school classes. 

Office hours for sure. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:00 PM, ByGrace3 said:

yes, I recommended all those things to her. 

Sometimes my kids don't know how to get started. That might mean helping them find an email address or look up the section on office hours in the syllabus. Sometimes it meant looking over a draft email before they sent it.

This is a fun little video about office hours that might help it feel less scary. 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Clemsondana]

At the 3 colleges where I've taken or taught labs, instructors have very little flexibility.  We could write our own weekly quizzes, for instance, but the assignments were in the lab manual and the final (and midterm if there was one) were the same across all sections to keep them consistent.  From a student perspective, adjusting to how to prep for labs was far more challenging for me than figuring out how to take college classes - I don't think I fully figured it out until I was teaching.  🙂  .  Students tend to come in cold and then not know what is going on.  Instructors try to address this by giving quizzes that cover the pre-lab activities so that students have incentive to prepare, but sometimes they don't understand anything from the prelab so they do poorly on the quiz...  As a science person who spent several years working in academic research labs, i find introductory labs to often be frustrating to both the students and the instructors and not nearly as helpful as the labs in later years, once students know more background and have a better idea of what they are doing.