Child doesn't recognize letters or numbers

[Kanin]

A student of mine has an extreme difficulty with identifying letters and numbers. As an example, this child can look at the dot pattern for 6 and say "Six! It has two threes, three twos, and six ones!!" but pointing to the number six from a selection of a few number cards... nope. Letters are similar. For reference, this child is almost eight years old. They receive SpEd services, but no testing has been done because the student was so hyperactive/didn't understand directions that testing was attempted and discontinued. This student is starting to get frustrated with school, and I totally sympathize... it's got to be so boring to see the same thing over and over... for years. 

Does anyone have some ideas about what could be going on?  Extreme dyslexia/dyscalculia, or something different? I've taught lots of dyslexic students but none of them have had anything remotely close to this degree of difficulty. It's almost as though there's some kind of blindness towards number/letters, like how some people can't recognize faces. 

I'm stumped!

[HomeAgain]

I wonder if something like TouchMath would help.

I've worked with 2 or 3 kids like this.  There's no brain connection between the symbol and the meaning.  None.  If the dots are six, then what the heck is the squiggle?  The same thing with reading/writing.  There's no connection between the sound, the symbol, and the position on the paper.  The one thing the kids I've worked with have in common is that the material is presented as "magic".  The sound is produced 3 different ways and the same squiggle makes it's own number of sounds, so it's best just to repeat the teacher because you sure as heck aren't going to figure it out on your own.  It's just magic.  That picture says "what".  The next picture says "the".  You tell them apart by the crease in the corner of the card or the picture at the bottom.

I said 2 or 3 because 2 definitely did this, and I'm working with the third right now, unsure.  We have gone back to the absolute basics, writing a sound as we say it so every time the sound is used the child is used to saying the sound at the same time.  I'm using the DISTAR alphabet to distinguish sounds in reading.  Everything is very controlled, multi-sensory material.  The two before had extremely short focus, which I think contributed to the quick assessment they made about the material. This kid has a longer focus, and a desire, but there's something he's missing.  I'll be interested to see other replies.

[Green Bean]

TouchMath for sure! Love those dots, wallow in them. The kits are worth the costs.

I do not have any help for the other issue the poor kid is experiencing.

[Kanin]

On 12/15/2021 at 2:39 PM, HomeAgain said:

The same thing with reading/writing.  There's no connection between the sound, the symbol, and the position on the paper. 

Yes! This! 

 

On 12/15/2021 at 2:39 PM, HomeAgain said:

I'm using the DISTAR alphabet to distinguish sounds in reading.

I haven't heard of this, will check out. 

[Kanin]

13 hours ago, Green Bean said:

TouchMath for sure! Love those dots, wallow in them. The kits are worth the costs.

I do not have any help for the other issue the poor kid is experiencing.

TouchMath.... I do own it. Maybe touchign the dots and counting the same number OVER and OVER again would make the names stick? I'll give it a try!

Let's hope that when 0-9 are down, 10 and up won't be so excruciating... 😕 

[momtotwo]

Maybe look into having them evaluated by an FCOVD optometrist. They can check for a visual processing deficit. One of my children had similar issues with letter, number, and color recognition among other visual issues and vision therapy helped immensely.

[Ottakee]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:36 PM, momtotwo said:

Maybe look into having them evaluated by an FCOVD optometrist. They can check for a visual processing deficit. One of my children had similar issues with letter, number, and color recognition among other visual issues and vision therapy helped immensely.

My nephew could not read at age 10, just graduated with high honors from college at 21.  Vision therapy changed his life.  It is worth an eval.

I will also say that one of mine gained almost 3 years of academics once she started meds for ADHD.

[Melissa in Australia]

could the child have FASD?

FASD is lack of brain development in utero caused by alcohol use by mother . It is a permanent disability (like missing a limb) 

one of my twins ( age 10) has huge trouble with letters and numbers. he has been   doing extensive therapy for quite a few years. The speech pathologist made a mimes to go with every letter. 

  like a f is a fish jumping out of the water -  the cross part of the f is the water. there is a whole body action to go with this as well and drawings .  the speech pathologist made each mime with twin 2 so they have personal meaning for him. I made some for numbers. like 7 is a man walking along that doesn't watch where he is going and falls down a cliff. 8 is a racing car track. we haven't progressed past 11 and he needs extensive scaffolding and lots of manipulatives to do the simplest of math. 

Twins 2 still recites the mime to himself to remember how to form the letters , it is chunky - but the speech pathologist assures me that it will get quicker . twins 2 can sort of read- if I point to each word, prompt him the second he gets stuck on a letter and hold a strip of paper under the line we are reading, gently touch him and remind him to look at the words every second word. then he can read a book like frog and toad. it is very slow.  

 because twin 2 is fascinated with books he has a C-pen reader to help access text , uses apps that have stories where the word lights up as it is read and listens to hours of talking books a day.

 

the poor guy had a meltdown the other day because he will be turning 11 soon and he thought 6 was after 10. he was devastated, thinking he was going backwards. it is so hard to sometimes to  work out what has upset him , then try and explain to him  

We do see a developmental optometrist and are using medication as well. I haven't seen any academic improvement with using medication with twin 2 but  twin one jumped a full grade in the first 2 weeks of using medication.  twin one doesn't have trouble recognizing numbers or letters and is reading at a end of grade 1 level.

 

 

[Kanin]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:36 PM, momtotwo said:

Maybe look into having them evaluated by an FCOVD optometrist. They can check for a visual processing deficit. One of my children had similar issues with letter, number, and color recognition among other visual issues and vision therapy helped immensely.

I'll do my best.

[Kanin]

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

could the child have FASD?

FASD is lack of brain development in utero caused by alcohol use by mother . It is a permanent disability (like missing a limb) 

one of my twins ( age 10) has huge trouble with letters and numbers. he has been   doing extensive therapy for quite a few years. The speech pathologist made a mimes to go with every letter. 

  like a f is a fish jumping out of the water -  the cross part of the f is the water. there is a whole body action to go with this as well and drawings .  the speech pathologist made each mime with twin 2 so they have personal meaning for him. I made some for numbers. like 7 is a man walking along that doesn't watch where he is going and falls down a cliff. 8 is a racing car track. we haven't progressed past 11 and he needs extensive scaffolding and lots of manipulatives to do the simplest of math. 

Twins 2 still recites the mime to himself to remember how to form the letters , it is chunky - but the speech pathologist assures me that it will get quicker . twins 2 can sort of read- if I point to each word, prompt him the second he gets stuck on a letter and hold a strip of paper under the line we are reading, gently touch him and remind him to look at the words every second word. then he can read a book like frog and toad. it is very slow.  

 because twin 2 is fascinated with books he has a C-pen reader to help access text , uses apps that have stories where the word lights up as it is read and listens to hours of talking books a day.

 

the poor guy had a meltdown the other day because he will be turning 11 soon and he thought 6 was after 10. he was devastated, thinking he was going backwards. it is so hard to sometimes to  work out what has upset him , then try and explain to him  

We do see a developmental optometrist and are using medication as well. I haven't seen any academic improvement with using medication with twin 2 but  twin one jumped a full grade in the first 2 weeks of using medication.  twin one doesn't have trouble recognizing numbers or letters and is reading at a end of grade 1 level.

 

 

Hmmm. I don't think that's the case here, but I do wonder about some kind of intellectual impairment. This student is "quirky" but apparently not quite on the autism spectrum. They have a great vocabulary and can chat about many topics. In fact, I think they could probably grasp more higher-level concepts in math but not recognizing numbers is such a drag on their progress. They know a few numbers, and a few letters, but this has been going on for two years now. 

I love reading about your twins! I've made some stories about the numbers as well. It's helping slowly. 

[Kanin]

Just now, Kanin said:

the poor guy had a meltdown the other day because he will be turning 11 soon and he thought 6 was after 10. he was devastated, thinking he was going backwards. it is so hard to sometimes to  work out what has upset him , then try and explain to him  

 

Oh, poor little guy 😞 

[*****]

On 12/15/2021 at 10:48 AM, Kanin said:

They receive SpEd services, but no testing has been done because the student was so hyperactive/didn't understand directions that testing was attempted and discontinued.

Wow, that sounds pretty difficult. If he is this hyperactive, I wonder how he even makes it in the classroom daily. That must be difficult for all involved.

In brainstorming your question, I have thought about a few things.   When was the last testing attempted? I have never heard of a student receiving sp. ed. services where testing was not completed, not to say that it can't happen... but did the district have a plan for when they will attempt to retest?  And hopefully by someone different, who may have more experience with a child with ADHD. If testing doesn’t happen, they should offer another source for testing I would think. 

Is the student receiving speech/language services?  You said that the child didn't understand directions, so I would hope that a therapist is working with him for language to help with following directions.

Does the student know his letter sounds even if he does not know his letters? For what it's worth, I have seen improvement in attention from my ADHD/dyslexic kids who have used Barton Reading and Spelling. The fact that they have no choice but to be engaged in each lesson, by manipulating letters, answering verbally, writing, following routines, etc. this has helped my students a great deal. He may have to start with a short 10-15 minute lesson, and gradually increase time as his attention allows, to 20, 30 and even 45 minutes. I had to do that with 2 students and it worked well. 

Of course he may not even pass the screening for Barton and would then have to begin a program like Foundations in Sounds or Lips, and then continue with Lindamood Bell, Barton or other Orton-Gillingham program. 

On 12/15/2021 at 11:39 AM, HomeAgain said:

I've worked with 2 or 3 kids like this.  There's no brain connection between the symbol and the meaning.  None. 

 Wow, this is interesting, for all my years of teaching in resource rooms and self-contained, I have never come across this! And for you to have 2 or 3 students, it makes me wonder what is going on in the world!  (I am just thinking that years ago down syndrome was in the limelight, now it is autism/aspergers.  Are we seeing yet something else in the near future?)

I would follow the above advice from others for sure.

And you might check out https://www.woodinmath.com/home 

This site has a plethora of resources for those with severe dyscalculia. They have so many videos on youtube.

Here are a few other ideas from their resources page.  https://www.woodinmath.com/reference-material/interactive-media

Keep us posted, as we can all learn from any new findings, best of luck!

[Cake and Pi]

My first thought is to recheck their eyes. Did they pass a vision screening this year? I'd try working on visual discrimination separate from letters and numbers to see if it's a visual discrimination thing. If it's solely a memory problem, and since this kiddo is so verbal, you could try using stylized letters/numbers with stories, such as Alphabet Tales or Writing the Visual, Kinesthetic, and Auditory Alphabet by Sarah K. Major (she also has stuff for math like I Can Sing from 1 to 10). Dianne Craft also has some stuff along these lines if I'm not mistaken. Also, of course, make letter and number practice as multisensory as possible. Touch Math and Touch Phonics might be worth trying out.

Since this sounds like a relatively bright child with specific learning difficulties, I'd also encourage you to work with this child on higher level math concepts that they *can* handle outside of the reading/writing print numbers realm. For example, you can have them adding and subtracting smaller and then larger numbers verbally with base-10 blocks or other non-numeral manipulatives. You can work on math story problems verbally. You can have them work on sentence structure, using coordinating and subordinating conjunctions, and organizing ideas for "writing" all verbally (check out the verbal exercises in The Writing Revolution). This way, when the missing pieces finally do fall into place, they'll already have the framework in place for many concepts and be set up for catch-up growth in these subjects. And, in the meantime, they'll get something interesting to engage with in between the frustrating remedial work.

My youngest kiddo has static encephalopathy (birth related brain injury) and has immense trouble learning pretty much everything, but he's also autistic with a significant language impairment, so your student may not need the same kind of interventions. That said, my kiddo has made *immense* gains over the past eight months (schooling year-round) using Direct Instruction, aka DISTAR, supplemented with extra kinesthetic and tactile materials (e.g. I use the ASL alphabet with him; he traces the entire alphabet and numbers 0-9 on Magnatabs every day; we build letters and numerals out of food, playdough, blocks, our bodies, etc; he uses home-made number rods that match the characters in the Dragonbox Numbers app, which he also plays regularly). I have him using Reading Mastery Signature Edition grade K and Connecting Math Concepts grade K, both from McGraw Hill. I bought the digital version of the teaching materials (online teacher subscription through ConnectED) to decrease costs, but kiddo still uses all the printed workbooks and test booklets. These are VERY repetitive programs that incorporate Errorless Learning techniques, and the workbooks reinforce the lessons beautifully with visual discrimination, identifying, and writing exercises.

[HomeAgain]

On 12/23/2021 at 7:25 PM, ***** said:

 Wow, this is interesting, for all my years of teaching in resource rooms and self-contained, I have never come across this! And for you to have 2 or 3 students, it makes me wonder what is going on in the world!  (I am just thinking that years ago down syndrome was in the limelight, now it is autism/aspergers.  Are we seeing yet something else in the near future?)

 

I've been lucky enough to live a lot of places, so they weren't in the same area, thankfully. The two that I am sure of had one thing in common: abysmal teaching.  They were taught stacks of sight words and memorized material.  There wasn't any connection because nobody had ever emphasized the connection before.  It was assumed they would pick it up.  They were years into this method by the time I got them and they weren't going to make the effort for something that seemed arbitrary.  It just didn't make sense to them that there were rules because everything said whatever the person said it did.  The one little girl definitely had the same issues in math.  Symbolic thinking wasn't there or was squashed, I'm not sure which.  But a short attention span definitely contributed to the problem.

[*****]

7 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

The two that I am sure of had one thing in common: abysmal teaching.  They were taught stacks of sight words and memorized material. 

Very sad, almost sounds like they were in an abusive situation? Or traumatic at least. Were they taught in an actual school by a teacher or homeschooled? Just amazing. Good thing they had you though!

[Kanin]

On 12/23/2021 at 7:25 PM, ***** said:

Wow, that sounds pretty difficult. If he is this hyperactive, I wonder how he even makes it in the classroom daily. That must be difficult for all involved.

 

I think it's definitely difficult for his teacher. I don't see him as extraordinarily hyperactive, but the academic gaps make it hard to include him. 

 

On 12/23/2021 at 7:25 PM, ***** said:

Is the student receiving speech/language services?  You said that the child didn't understand directions, so I would hope that a therapist is working with him for language to help with following directions.

Does the student know his letter sounds even if he does not know his letters? For what it's worth, I have seen improvement in attention from my ADHD/dyslexic kids who have used Barton Reading and Spelling. The fact that they have no choice but to be engaged in each lesson, by manipulating letters, answering verbally, writing, following routines, etc. this has helped my students a great deal. He may have to start with a short 10-15 minute lesson, and gradually increase time as his attention allows, to 20, 30 and even 45 minutes. I had to do that with 2 students and it worked well. 

Yes to speech. He also doesn't know all of his letters... maybe 10 of them at this point, and they've been at it for preK, K, and now half of 1st. We are working on phonemic awareness. I'm not sure if LiPS would work yet since he doesn't know the names of the letters. I can't remember if it's possible to do LiPS without letter names. 

 

On 12/23/2021 at 7:25 PM, ***** said:

I would follow the above advice from others for sure.

And you might check out https://www.woodinmath.com/home 

This site has a plethora of resources for those with severe dyscalculia. They have so many videos on youtube.

Here are a few other ideas from their resources page.  https://www.woodinmath.com/reference-material/interactive-media

Keep us posted, as we can all learn from any new findings, best of luck!

Thank you for these suggestions! I'll report back. 

[Kanin]

On 12/24/2021 at 2:58 PM, Cake and Pi said:

My first thought is to recheck their eyes. Did they pass a vision screening this year? I'd try working on visual discrimination separate from letters and numbers to see if it's a visual discrimination thing. If it's solely a memory problem, and since this kiddo is so verbal, you could try using stylized letters/numbers with stories, such as Alphabet Tales or Writing the Visual, Kinesthetic, and Auditory Alphabet by Sarah K. Major (she also has stuff for math like I Can Sing from 1 to 10). Dianne Craft also has some stuff along these lines if I'm not mistaken. Also, of course, make letter and number practice as multisensory as possible. Touch Math and Touch Phonics might be worth trying out.

Yes, they did pass a vision screening. I think the suggestion to use stories with numbers/letters is a great one. I started making my own, and he's learned three new numbers... but it took three weeks to learn the three new number names. Well, at least it happened! I guess it's not too bad considering he hasn't learned them in the previous two years of trying. I've not heard of Touch Phonics!

 

On 12/24/2021 at 2:58 PM, Cake and Pi said:

Since this sounds like a relatively bright child with specific learning difficulties, I'd also encourage you to work with this child on higher level math concepts that they *can* handle outside of the reading/writing print numbers realm. For example, you can have them adding and subtracting smaller and then larger numbers verbally with base-10 blocks or other non-numeral manipulatives. You can work on math story problems verbally. You can have them work on sentence structure, using coordinating and subordinating conjunctions, and organizing ideas for "writing" all verbally (check out the verbal exercises in The Writing Revolution). This way, when the missing pieces finally do fall into place, they'll already have the framework in place for many concepts and be set up for catch-up growth in these subjects. And, in the meantime, they'll get something interesting to engage with in between the frustrating remedial work.

I agree with this wholeheartedly!

On 12/24/2021 at 2:58 PM, Cake and Pi said:

My youngest kiddo has static encephalopathy (birth related brain injury) and has immense trouble learning pretty much everything, but he's also autistic with a significant language impairment, so your student may not need the same kind of interventions. That said, my kiddo has made *immense* gains over the past eight months (schooling year-round) using Direct Instruction, aka DISTAR, supplemented with extra kinesthetic and tactile materials (e.g. I use the ASL alphabet with him; he traces the entire alphabet and numbers 0-9 on Magnatabs every day; we build letters and numerals out of food, playdough, blocks, our bodies, etc; he uses home-made number rods that match the characters in the Dragonbox Numbers app, which he also plays regularly). I have him using Reading Mastery Signature Edition grade K and Connecting Math Concepts grade K, both from McGraw Hill. I bought the digital version of the teaching materials (online teacher subscription through ConnectED) to decrease costs, but kiddo still uses all the printed workbooks and test booklets. These are VERY repetitive programs that incorporate Errorless Learning techniques, and the workbooks reinforce the lessons beautifully with visual discrimination, identifying, and writing exercises.

Thanks for this. I forgot about Dragonbox Numbers! I'm curious about the Reading Mastery. Will check out. Thank you for your ideas!

[Lecka]

My son also used Reading Mastery.  It is a “Direct Instruction” program.  
 

I was very pleased with it.  

Edited December 27, 2021 by Lecka

[Melissa in Australia]

I just remembered some other things we used as well

sandpaper letters

letter ninja on the ipad  we did this for 2 minutes a day every school day 

as well as all the other  usual things : books, songs, activities, games that I am sure you have tried

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

CSMP maths teaches a lot using dots and arrows instead of numerals, so that might help.

Also, my dd couldn't seem to learn to write letters until I taught her cursive. For reasons I don't understand, she had to learn joined letters in pairs, then threes, then finally whole words.

[PeterPan]

On 12/20/2021 at 1:54 PM, Kanin said:

This student is "quirky" but apparently not quite on the autism spectrum.

So he's not generalizing but it's not autism. Go back to square one, because they missed things. Unless the IEP is ADOS trained, they're probably missing what's in front of them. I had an "autism expert" from our ps swear it wasn't autism and their psych say he had "repetitive hyperactive behaviors." Ds is now diagnosed and agreed upon as ASD2. Not 1, 2. And yeah, that's how it presents in the gifted, with these really funky holes.

On 12/20/2021 at 1:54 PM, Kanin said:

They have a great vocabulary and can chat about many topics.

Yup, that's how my ds presents. It's the gifted IQ making really crazy holes. Did they test narrative language? 

You have to remember how language develops to understand why this stuff happens. Yes check developmental vision, yes there's probably a generalization issue, but also it's language development. You should learn language parts to whole, smallest bits (prosody, pitch, then phonemes, morphemes, words, phrases, sentences...) but in autism kids may flip that and go parts to whole. And when that IQ is high, they have the ability to learn so much that you don't realize the holes are there. So then you're like why does he get physics but not letters?? High IQ person who learned language whole to parts.

You correct that by going back through all the stages of language development, which essential is what is happening with APD (much disputed term) intervention by an SLP. If your people are not running the language tests to show the holes, well then that's where you start. Narrative language, expressive language tests that do not provide multiple choice or models (like the SPELT, love love love the SPELT), etc. Most tests your SLPs are using are going to provide models or use multiple choice, hence the issue of sensitivity in the high IQ populations.

[Kanin]

On 1/6/2022 at 10:28 AM, PeterPan said:

So he's not generalizing but it's not autism. Go back to square one, because they missed things. Unless the IEP is ADOS trained, they're probably missing what's in front of them. I had an "autism expert" from our ps swear it wasn't autism and their psych say he had "repetitive hyperactive behaviors." Ds is now diagnosed and agreed upon as ASD2. Not 1, 2. And yeah, that's how it presents in the gifted, with these really funky holes.

On 12/20/2021 at 1:54 PM, Kanin said:

@PeterPan I'm so glad you're here! I agree about this. Definitely crazy different ability levels in different areas.

 

On 1/6/2022 at 10:28 AM, PeterPan said:

So then you're like why does he get physics but not letters?? High IQ person who learned language whole to parts.

Yes, this! 

We need some testing to figure out what is really going on. So, language is affecting his ability to name things, just these certain things? I admit I have no expertise in this area. 

On 1/6/2022 at 10:28 AM, PeterPan said:

Did they test narrative language? 

Not sure, I'll have to check. Unless it's part of a standard speech-language eval, probably not. 

[PeterPan]

On 1/9/2022 at 9:00 PM, Kanin said:

Unless it's part of a standard speech-language eval, probably not. 

Bingo. This is why we kept going in circles with my ds' evals for his IEP. The school didn't even OWN the tests necessary. 😉 

 

[Kanin]

26 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Bingo. This is why we kept going in circles with my ds' evals for his IEP. The school didn't even OWN the tests necessary. 😉 

 

I checked. Nope. Just expressive, receptive, categories, things like that. 

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I checked. Nope. Just expressive, receptive, categories, things like that. 

Typically that's done with a screener like the CELF. Look at what tests were run and look each one up to see why they are not identifying your student's weaknesses. 

Just a pro tip, but I ended up going through sites like ProEdInc and finding the tests my ds needed and getting a private SLP to run them. If you do 3rd party evals with an SLP specializing in expressive language they should own the tests. You can also find docs online where other school team members have put what evals they ran for various issues. 

Remember, the school is trying to run in say 1 hour with screeners what a specialist would spend many hours digging in on. 

[Kanin]

On 1/11/2022 at 11:27 AM, PeterPan said:

Typically that's done with a screener like the CELF. Look at what tests were run and look each one up to see why they are not identifying your student's weaknesses. 

Just a pro tip, but I ended up going through sites like ProEdInc and finding the tests my ds needed and getting a private SLP to run them. If you do 3rd party evals with an SLP specializing in expressive language they should own the tests. You can also find docs online where other school team members have put what evals they ran for various issues. 

Remember, the school is trying to run in say 1 hour with screeners what a specialist would spend many hours digging in on. 

I'll investigate further. And ask the SLP if she has any ideas. She's really good and new to the school.