talk to me about negotiating salary for first "real" job

[gardenmom5]

1ds  (MS)  has received an offer.  dsil (same industry) is telling him the starting salary for his level at (dsil's employer) is about 10K higher - with a much lower col.  (1ds likes the job here, and he wants to stay here.)  (dsil was established/had worked there for several years, and tried to negotiate for "just a little bit more" from this same co, and he'd have stayed.  they said no.  so, he moved on to where they gave him a huge raise to come work.)

so - salary negotiation for first job?  how realistic is that? Or just take what is offered.

[Erica in OR]

Highly recommend reading salary negotiation related posts at askamanager.com blog. Salary negotiation for first job is realistic.

Erica in OR

[catz]

Hmmm ... well is dsil a hiring manager or involved in a lot of hiring?  How many companies has he worked with?  One person's experience and resulting opinion when it comes to this kind of thing is one person's experience/opinion IMO.   It sounds like this is what this company does for it's new young employees and maybe doesn't have a lot of leeway given dsil's history.  Maybe they expect new grad types to come and go which is fine.  There may be other reasons the other companies go higher.  Maybe they are pickier about their new grads.  Maybe pay scales up differently there.   COL can be multi faceted thing, I never feel like my area is particularly well represented if you just google COL related data/info.  

I'm not saying your son should possibly sell himself short or take the offer as is.  Does he have other possible offers on the table?  What is the market like for what he is doing where he wants to be?  Does he have other interviews lined up?  It's easier to negotiate up a salary if you have 2-3 offers on the table or even strong possibilities?  It can be a weird hiring market right now depending on the industry.

If he is going to negotiate, I'd just have him think through all the possible scenarios to the end.  Is a no from the company on going higher a deal breaker or will he regret the discussion?  

 

[Clarita]

Personally, I'd take the job and get some experience. If I discover I'm grossly underpaid I start job searching. If the company likes you when you let your current company know you are deciding to go elsewhere they may give you a counter offer. That's just me, but it is fine to try and negotiate a salary even for a first job.

[Arcadia]

49 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

so - salary negotiation for first job?  how realistic is that? Or just take what is offered.

Negotiations are expected for first job. Even interns counteroffer and at most is a no. 
 

For the tech industry, https://www.levels.fyi/ and Glassdoor has been useful to get a range of figures. 

[Annie G]

Since dsil has experience w same employer not negotiating w him, and then finding a higher salary elsewhere, it might be that the employer just pays lower than is typical.  (That is, if I’m reading it right)

If so, it’s worth trying to negotiate, but if he’s willing to work at the offered price, perhaps negotiate in a way that doesn’t lose the job offer if negotiations fail.

It stinks when you know you’re worth more!

[katilac]

It shouldn't hurt to ask. Most places are simply going to say yes or no. A place that would rescind an offer for simply asking is probably not a great place, so I'd only consider not asking if he will be crushed to have the offer rescinded. 

I personally know at least two people who had some measure of success asking for more money in similar situations. 

My sister asked for a job she had no experience in, after multiple years out of the work force. In the interview, they said, "It pays X per hour"; she said "I was hoping for Y (20% more)" and they punched numbers in the calculator and said yes right then and there. 

Then a young person fresh out of college last year. They asked for more money in salary, the company got back to them and said they couldn't offer more salary but would offer a one-time signing bonus. 

[Bootsie]

I think it really depends on the job, industry, specific location, and market conditions.  Also, consider the entire employment package, not just the starting salary.  What is the insurance?  What is the retirement plan?  Vacation time?  Some of nonwage factors can compensate for what looks like a lower salary.  

[katilac]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I think it really depends on the job, industry, specific location, and market conditions.  Also, consider the entire employment package, not just the starting salary.  What is the insurance?  What is the retirement plan?  Vacation time?  Some of nonwage factors can compensate for what looks like a lower salary.  

I do agree with this. If they have a really good package, I would expect them to be including those details with the offer. When my dd took her most recent job, they bombarded her with this info, because their benefits definitely equal money in the pocket. It's not a 10k difference, but it's a few thousand for sure (compared to many other companies locally). 

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Annie G said:

Since dsil has experience w same employer not negotiating w him, and then finding a higher salary elsewhere, it might be that the employer just pays lower than is typical.  (That is, if I’m reading it right)

If so, it’s worth trying to negotiate, but if he’s willing to work at the offered price, perhaps negotiate in a way that doesn’t lose the job offer if negotiations fail.

It stinks when you know you’re worth more!

dsil was in a situation that would makes his experience at this not transferable.

1ds's still trying to figure out what the average is for entry level in his field with a MS.  I know there are corps and sectors within those corps that pay more than others.  (most workers in his field only have a BS.)  I told him to find out what an entry BS makes vs an entry MS, as that would be a data point he'd need for an eval.

 

3 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Negotiations are expected for first job. Even interns counteroffer and at most is a no. 
 

For the tech industry, https://www.levels.fyi/ and Glassdoor has been useful to get a range of figures. 

Interesting.

Not tech (computers/electronics/software/etc.) 

The link is for tech and doesn't allow for his industry.   

 

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I think it really depends on the job, industry, specific location, and market conditions.  Also, consider the entire employment package, not just the starting salary.  What is the insurance?  What is the retirement plan?  Vacation time?  Some of nonwage factors can compensate for what looks like a lower salary.  

I suggested looking at other parts of the compensation pkg offered - but most of it is typical for the industry across corporations.  It's an older corp in this field - there are newer companies, incld. around here that are more niche but pay more.

I know they have a lot of older employees in this field at this corp who will be retiring (there's been a lot of concerned comments about how they need to bring in some youngin's so the olders can pass on their experience before they retire).  I personally know several who worked there from college graduation to retirement.

sometimes - you go for a lower salary that gives more exposure/experience that you can use when you move on for a higher salary.  

Thank you.

 

[popmom]

I wish I knew the magic formula. When my oldest was interviewing for her first job, they ask her what she wanted. She was so desperate for the job (2020--graduated at the beginning of the pandemic and NO ONE was hiring) that she didn't ask for enough apparently. Her dad and I researched her field with her and we all were in agreement. They offered her the job AND gave her more than she asked for--meaning she probably left money on the table. (She's a graphic designer for a large building materials company--catalogs, packaging, logos--not a high paying career, but she did graduate from a very reputable architecture/design school.) They did give her a modest bonus at the end of last year which is almost unheard of for someone who has been with the company less than a year. She's really hoping for a decent raise soon because she lives/works in a HCOL area. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by popmom

[Clarita]

49 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

sometimes - you go for a lower salary that gives more exposure/experience that you can use when you move on for a higher salary. 

FWIW that did work for me. I started at a startup which at the time when I joined was coming out of a bad situation. They ended up being a fantastic choice as a starting job because I got so many opportunities to pursue and gain recognition that I definately wouldn't have had at a more established company that may have paid me more.

I also ended up getting monetary payback in the end because during the lean years they were paying me partially in stocks (delayed paychecks and no raises) and when the company got aquired and it was life-changing. However after the aquisition it was clear that a bunch of us were grossly underpaid because I had at least 4 10%+ raises in 2 years and when I left I was asked how much money it would take to make me stay and that another 10%+ was already in the pipeline. 

[popmom]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

sometimes - you go for a lower salary that gives more exposure/experience that you can use when you move on for a higher salary.  

Thank you.

 

100% agree--especially if the job comes with decent benefits.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

100% agree--especially if the job comes with decent benefits.

yes.  It's a good job, good bene's, pretty standard for this industry.   

- just a question of competitiveness of salary.  

 

it's union - which is about $50 a year in dues.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, popmom said:

I wish I knew the magic formula. When my oldest was interviewing for her first job, they ask her what she wanted. She was so desperate for the job (2020--graduated at the beginning of the pandemic and NO ONE was hiring) that she didn't ask for enough apparently. Her dad and I researched her field with her and we all were in agreement. They offered her the job AND gave her more than she asked for--meaning she probably left money on the table. (She's a graphic designer for a large building materials company--catalogs, packaging, logos--not a high paying career, but she did graduate from a very reputable architecture/design school.) They did give her a modest bonus at the end of last year which is almost unheard of for someone who has been with the company less than a year. She's really hoping for a decent raise soon because she lives/works in a HCOL area. 

That's where the concern comes in.  We're in a HCOL area.  If he was taking a job where dd & dsil lives, this would be a great salary (and dsil's corp pays  about $10K more for the same grade).  But, it's here, and it won't go nearly as far.

[2squared]

10 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I think it really depends on the job, industry, specific location, and market conditions.  Also, consider the entire employment package, not just the starting salary.  What is the insurance?  What is the retirement plan?  Vacation time?  Some of nonwage factors can compensate for what looks like a lower salary.  

I’m a hiring manager, and this is spot-on. I will negotiate more when I have a more desired candidate or am more desperate. Right now I would be desperate, so negotiating starting salaries would be highly recommended. 

My personal thoughts:
An MS vs BS for an entry level position doesn’t super excite me as an employer. Both candidates come with no experience and I have to teach them what they need to know. Many programs/degrees are default MS degrees now anyway….kids come into college with credits so they graduate with an extra degree or an MS for the same four years. Also, schools are skinnying down their MS programs to be one year vs two. 

My company is moving toward desiring to hire kids with a BS and pass on the MS candidates. We are looking to get talent in the door sooner and then develop them ourselves. We will pay for them to get their MS as they work, which brings us more value. MS coursework without practical experience isn’t as valuable. 

I don’t know yet what I’m going to encourage my kids to do, but if they only need a couple more classes to get the MS, I will probably encourage them to do it. The MS may check off a future employment/promotion box, and a couple extra classes while still in school is easier than taking classes later. 

[2squared]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

That's where the concern comes in.  We're in a HCOL area.  If he was taking a job where dd & dsil lives, this would be a great salary (and dsil's corp pays  about $10K more for the same grade).  But, it's here, and it won't go nearly as far.

I don’t think salaries scale between cost of living as much as people might think. I live in rural LCOL area and work for a larger company. We pay comparable to our metro competitors 3 hours away because we compete for the same talent.

Remote work is further evening out salaries. It’ll be interesting to see where salaries and work locations land in 5-10 years. 

[City Mouse]

This is interesting but foreign to me. My DH and I both work in fields (government jobs) with set salary schedules and no ability to negotiate pay.

[2squared]

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

yes.  It's a good job, good bene's, pretty standard for this industry.   

- just a question of competitiveness of salary.  

 

it's union - which is about $50 a year in dues.

If it’s union, are salaries negotiable? Usually unions have very strict parameters for pay. Perhaps the beginning tier may be negotiable?

My dh’s last job was union. His starting pay and raises were dictated by the union pay schedules….even as an attorney. 

[NewnameC]

2 hours ago, 2squared said:

I’m a hiring manager, and this is spot-on. I will negotiate more when I have a more desired candidate or am more desperate. Right now I would be desperate, so negotiating starting salaries would be highly recommended. 

My personal thoughts:
An MS vs BS for an entry level position doesn’t super excite me as an employer. Both candidates come with no experience and I have to teach them what they need to know. Many programs/degrees are default MS degrees now anyway….kids come into college with credits so they graduate with an extra degree or an MS for the same four years. Also, schools are skinnying down their MS programs to be one year vs two. 

My company is moving toward desiring to hire kids with a BS and pass on the MS candidates. We are looking to get talent in the door sooner and then develop them ourselves. We will pay for them to get their MS as they work, which brings us more value. MS coursework without practical experience isn’t as valuable. 

I don’t know yet what I’m going to encourage my kids to do, but if they only need a couple more classes to get the MS, I will probably encourage them to do it. The MS may check off a future employment/promotion box, and a couple extra classes while still in school is easier than taking classes later. 

 

1 hour ago, 2squared said:

If it’s union, are salaries negotiable? Usually unions have very strict parameters for pay. Perhaps the beginning tier may be negotiable?

My dh’s last job was union. His starting pay and raises were dictated by the union pay schedules….even as an attorney. 

Two of my adult kids are engineers  and their experiences match these posts.

My oldest daughter, bachelor’s degree, and her boyfriend, master’s degree, both started working at same level and salary at their company. After hiring, raises are based on performance reviews.

My oldest son works for a company that is heavily unionized. Even though his job is not part of a union, there is a published salary schedule that tells him exactly how much he will be making in 1 year, 3 years, etc in his current position. The company has great benefits.

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

11 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Interesting.

Not tech (computers/electronics/software/etc.) 

3 hours ago, 2squared said:

My personal thoughts:
An MS vs BS for an entry level position doesn’t super excite me as an employer. Both candidates come with no experience and I have to teach them what they need to know. 

Internships carry weight for a fresh graduate. Some MSc do have work experience. For my husband’s department which is more hardware/material science based, the only position that needs no experience is interns. Even then, HR ranks those with prior internships higher.

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, 2squared said:

I’m a hiring manager, and this is spot-on. I will negotiate more when I have a more desired candidate or am more desperate. Right now I would be desperate, so negotiating starting salaries would be highly recommended. 

My personal thoughts:
An MS vs BS for an entry level position doesn’t super excite me as an employer. Both candidates come with no experience and I have to teach them what they need to know. Many programs/degrees are default MS degrees now anyway….kids come into college with credits so they graduate with an extra degree or an MS for the same four years. Also, schools are skinnying down their MS programs to be one year vs two. 

My company is moving toward desiring to hire kids with a BS and pass on the MS candidates. We are looking to get talent in the door sooner and then develop them ourselves. We will pay for them to get their MS as they work, which brings us more value. MS coursework without practical experience isn’t as valuable. 

I don’t know yet what I’m going to encourage my kids to do, but if they only need a couple more classes to get the MS, I will probably encourage them to do it. The MS may check off a future employment/promotion box, and a couple extra classes while still in school is easier than taking classes later. 

I really need to address this. what field are you in?  yeah - it's relevant. 

This is a MSAAE.  It's not about how many credits you have, but what classes you have actually taken, and research you have done.  (2dd has a STEM doc.)  400-level undergrad classes do not apply, you aren't taking classes if you haven't been accepted into the program, nor are you getting a required academic advisor to oversee your mandatory research.  

This is a job specifically aimed at fresh college grads. Lack of industry employed experience is expected.   

Most engineers work their entire careers with only a BS. MS opens doors that are closed to BS. Dsil is a manager at a different corp (lower COL area) - same industry (freshly minted engineer grads under dsil with a MS start $17K higher than those with a BS.  And $10K more than where ds has received an offer.)  

 

eta: the union is ONLY for the engineers.  if you don't have an actual engineering degree, you're not in it. But worth checking if dsil's engineers have a union. or what the union schedule is.

my brother -not on speaking terms. I don't even want him to know ds has a job offer at the same physical location  -  and dh's bil (worked his entire career there in various divisions) - are/were both engineers with just a BS, at this company.)  BIL could be worth talking to - but not sure ds would.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by gardenmom5

[2squared]

17 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I really need to address this. what field are you in?  yeah - it's relevant. 

This is STEM.  It's not about how many credits you have, but what classes you have actually taken, and research you have done.  (2dd has a STEM doc.)  400-level undergrad classes do not apply, you aren't taking classes if you haven't been accepted into the program, nor are you getting a required academic advisor to oversee your mandatory research.  

This is a job specifically aimed at fresh college grads. Lack of industry employed experience is expected.   

Most engineers work their entire careers with only a BS. MS opens doors that are closed to BS. Dsil is a manager at a different corp (lower COL area) - same industry (freshly minted engineer grads under dsil with a MS start $17K higher than those with a BS.  And $10K more than where ds has received an offer.)  

 

eta: the union is ONLY for engineers.  if you don't have an actual engineering degree, you're not in it.

 

I personally am a senior manager in corporate finance/accounting for a large international company. My company hires all kinds of grads - engineers, marketing, scientists, finance, logistics. I’ve been recruiting/interviewing for FT positions and internships.

I agree an MS degree opens doors, but my company just doesn’t value it significantly more than a BS for new grads….right now, in today’s market. In fact, like I stated, we are moving toward hiring candidates with BS degrees with the expectation they will go back for the MS degree after getting some work experience.

We do prefer new hires with intern experience, but we don’t pay them more just because they’ve had an internship. I expect new college grads to have had an internship in their field, so an internship doesn’t set them apart. We would pay more for enhanced skill sets or other value-add an candidate brings. 

This is my current experience at my current large international employer. Other experiences may be different. 

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, 2squared said:

I don’t think salaries scale between cost of living as much as people might think. I live in rural LCOL area and work for a larger company. We pay comparable to our metro competitors 3 hours away because we compete for the same talent.

Remote work is further evening out salaries. It’ll be interesting to see where salaries and work locations land in 5-10 years. 

Years ago - some friends who lived here (when it was a cheaper area) were given an extra stipend for living "in the field" as compared to where their employer was based. (a hcol area.)

dd was interviewing at big tech in an even hcol area. (it is now in our area too).  That company does take col into account.  with the shut-down, and people working remotely - they were forced to compromise that "ok, you don't have to live within X distance, but we're going to pay you less if you don't."

 

[gardenmom5]

6 minutes ago, 2squared said:

I personally am a senior manager in corporate finance/accounting  

yeah - i was going to guess accounting, as my accountant son has said similar things.

doesn't apply to engineering.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

Internships carry weight for a fresh graduate. Some MSc do have work experience. For my husband’s department which is more hardware/material science based, the only position that needs no experience is interns. Even then, HR ranks those with prior internships higher.

what is a MSc?  (looked it up. never mind.)  ds's is a very specific engineering MS - I'm just not giving the whole degree acronym (there are five letters.)

dd hated having to deal with HR when she was hiring her minions.

[Arcadia]

13 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Not tech (computers/electronics/software/etc.) 

The link is for tech and doesn't allow for his industry.   

 

4 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

what is a MSc?  (looked it up. never mind.)  ds's is a very specific engineering MS - I'm just not giving the whole degree acronym (there are five letters.)

You put the acronym up thread in your reply to 2squared

e.g. Boeing https://www.levels.fyi/company/Boeing/salaries/

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

You put the acronym up thread in your reply to 2squared

e.g. Boeing https://www.levels.fyi/company/Boeing/salaries/

I've written and deleted so much, i've lost track.

Thank you for the link.

and the cat is just such a distraction . . . . he made a friend . . . . 

Edited December 9, 2021 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

he's been offered a relocation pkg (he lives in the area. he won't be moving any time soon) - not sure if that was conditional or not.  isn't that something he can just consider a hiring bonus and bank?  

[Arcadia]

58 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

he's been offered a relocation pkg (he lives in the area. he won't be moving any time soon) - not sure if that was conditional or not.  isn't that something he can just consider a hiring bonus and bank?  

It depends on the relo package. Ours was moving expenses paid directly by the company, household appliances reimbursed by the company, airfares paid for and a cash portion. So while the relo package was generous, the cash portion was a small portion of the entire package. 

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

It depends on the relo package. Ours was moving expenses paid directly by the company, household appliances reimbursed by the company, airfares paid for and a cash portion. So while the relo package was generous, the cash portion was a small portion of the entire package. 

well- then nothing as he lives here.  He's living with 1dd - and currently has no reason to move. (his am commute from her house would be maybe 30 minutes)   So, not something he'd be using at the moment.

 

He has decided he wants to counter.  Good thing he can be personable. . . . 

 

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

he's been offered a relocation pkg (he lives in the area. he won't be moving any time soon) - not sure if that was conditional or not.  isn't that something he can just consider a hiring bonus and bank?  

Last time I received a job offer, the relocation package was for reimbursement of relocation expenses.  If expenses incurred were less than the allotted amount the value was lost.