"My pronouns" at CVS today ...

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I could not be more wrong that stereotypes exist for a reason?   🤦🏻‍♀️
 

And what do you mean by ‘people like you’.   Is that a stereotype by chance?

 

People like you that freely admit to not knowing any gay people and instead of owning that ignorance you use it to disrespect people by stereotyping them. That is, assigning thoughts and motivations to them based on their being part of a particular group. Instead of treating them as individuals. I’m treating you as an individual who admits she knows no gay people. You’ve admitted you have no first hand knowledge at all of gay people. So own it and don’t spout off about things about which you know absolutely nothing.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Frances

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

No way am I going to chill. Stereotypes can be very dangerous. If you want to live in ignorance about gay people, fine. But at least show respect by not stereotyping people.

And I’m not denying it’s a possibility. But that’s very different than saying stereotypes exist for a reason. And again, you’ve admitted you know no gay people. So it’s very likely that everything you think you know about gay people is based on stereotypes. 

The OP is the one who said her 14 year old daughter described the cvs worker that way,  I wasn’t there.  I will defer to 14 year old in person perceptions especially on a topic that I am unfamiliar with.  I don’t know what ‘danger’ you think I am posing to you or anyone, but I think you are taking your aggression out on me unfairly.  

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Is there a particular reason?  Like, I can express that I prefer that my DD10 be referred to as having an ASD diagnosis vs being referred to as autistic, because my experience has been that the word autistic makes people presume things about her that aren't true.  But "transgendered" vs "transgender" doesn't really seem to be much different.  To me, "transgendered" really just feels like the actual definition I understood.....being assigned a gender at birth that is different than your actual gender. 

Which....to be clear...if "transgender" is preferred over "transgendered" then that's fine, I have no reason to argue one or the other.

Just wondering about the preference. 

 

ETA: I also have a kid with asthma that is moderate, and I don't refer to her as an asthmatic either. 

Because just like the general adult autistic community has decided that, as a rule, the prefer the term autistic over ASD, the trans community has decided that they (in general) prefer the term transgender over transgendered.  

(And I get it....I have a kid with an ASD diagnosis who doesn't really fit the stereotypes, but I think that she, when I'm talking about her in particular, but in the absence of that, it's respectful to go with the terminology the community has a whole has expressed a preference for.)

[1234]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Is there a particular reason?  Like, I can express that I prefer that my DD10 be referred to as having an ASD diagnosis vs being referred to as autistic, because my experience has been that the word autistic makes people presume things about her that aren't true.  But "transgendered" vs "transgender" doesn't really seem to be much different.  To me, "transgendered" really just feels like the actual definition I understood.....being assigned a gender at birth that is different than your actual gender. 

Which....to be clear...if "transgender" is preferred over "transgendered" then that's fine, I have no reason to argue one or the other.

Just wondering about the preference. 

I think it’s like how my ASD adult dc says they are autistic instead of having ASD. They were just born that way and it is who they are. They are also non binary and are fine being called transgender. They prefer transgender because it is just who they are and not something that was done to them or something they have.

[Frances]

Just now, Scarlett said:

The OP is the one who said her 14 year old daughter described the cvs worker that way,  I wasn’t there.  I will defer to 14 year old in person perceptions especially on a topic that I am unfamiliar with.  I don’t know what ‘danger’ you think I am posing to you or anyone, but I think you are taking your aggression out on me unfairly.  

She can perceive whatever she wants to perceive. That doesn’t mean she’s not stereotyping people and it shouldn’t be discussed with her. She may very well be correct in her assessment (although personally I think it’s quite the stretch), but that doesn’t make it right to assume that all gay people are going to act a certain way because it’s pride month. Anymore that all woman or all blacks or all fill in the blank think or act the same way because of their being part of a particular group.

Since this is the WTM board, maybe you might want to read some history if you really and truly aren’t aware of the dangers of stereotyping. I don’t think it’s my job to educate you. I’m fine with you being ignorant about gay people, that’s your choice. Just stop being disrespectful and stereotyping them.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

She can perceive whatever she wants to perceive. That doesn’t mean she’s not stereotyping people and it shouldn’t be discussed with her. She may very well be correct in her assessment (although personally I think it’s quite the stretch), but that doesn’t make it right to assume that all gay people are going to act a certain way because it’s pride month. Anymore that all woman or all blacks or all fill in the blank think or act the same way because of their being part of a particular group.

Since this is the WTM board, maybe you might want to read some history if you really and truly aren’t aware of the dangers of stereotyping. I don’t think it’s my job to educate you. I’m fine with you being ignorant about gay people, that’s your choice. Just stop being disrespectful and stereotyping them.

Likewise.  You don’t begin to know anything about me or how I view the world or how I treat people.  I am not being disrespectful to anyone by saying perhaps the 14 year who was there read the situation as it was vs how any of us think it was. 

[Frances]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Likewise.  You don’t begin to know anything about me or how I view the world or how I treat people.  I am not being disrespectful to anyone by saying perhaps the 14 year who was there read the situation as it was vs how any of us think it was. 

I actually do because I’ve observed you on this board for many years. And I’m treating you as an individual who has freely admitted she knows no gays.

You said stereotypes exist for a reason. And even if the 14 year old correctly assessed that the man was gay, how would she possibly know his behavior was due to that and it being Pride month unless she was stereotyping him? Obviously you are fine with that. I’m not, but I’m less bothered by her doing it because she’s still young. I’m very bothered by someone like you who freely admits to knowing no gays acting on your ignorance rather than either choosing to educate yourself or at least be respectful and say nothing.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I actually do because I’ve observed you on this board for many years. And I’m treating you as an individual who has freely admitted she knows no gays.

You said stereotypes exist for a reason. And even if the 14 year old correctly assessed that the man was gay, how would she possibly know his behavior was due to that and it being Pride month unless she was stereotyping him? Obviously you are fine with that. I’m not, but I’m less bothered by her doing it because she’s still young. I’m very bothered by someone like you who freely admits to knowing no gays acting on your ignorance rather than either choosing to educate yourself or at least be respectful and say nothing.

The young man at cvs was the one who was completely out of line.  I don’t think the 14 year olds view of him and his motivations are so out there to warrant this level of aggression by you to me—two completely uninvolved parties. 
 

Or is the aggression just reserved for those who don’t know gay people?

[Frances]

Just now, Scarlett said:

The young man at cvs was the one who was completely out of line.  I don’t think the 14 year olds view of him and his motivations are so out there to warrant this level of aggression by you to me—two completely uninvolved parties. 
 

Or is the aggression just reserved for those who don’t know gay people?

I never said the young man was not out of line. In other posts on this thread I commented that because I am intimately familiar with the pharmacy profession and know from much reading and acquaintances that CVS generally puts its staff in dangerous and stressful working conditions, that I agreed with those who said it was more likely that his brain was elsewhere focusing on not harming or killing someone as opposed to purposely using the wrong pronouns.

My aggression towards you is because I can’t comprehend that you seem to have no comprehension of how disrespectful it is to stereotype people in a minority group who throughout the years have often suffered terribly, including being killed, for being part of said group. I honestly don’t care whether or not you know any gay people. But since you don’t, then at least show some respect and don’t stereotype them.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I never said the young man was not out of line. In other posts on this thread I commented that because I am intimately familiar with the pharmacy profession and know from much reading and acquaintances that CVS generally puts its staff in dangerous and stressful working conditions, that I agreed with those who said it was more likely that his brain was elsewhere focusing on not harming or killing someone as opposed to purposely using the wrong pronouns.

My aggression towards you is because I can’t comprehend that you seem to have no comprehension of how disrespectful it is to stereotype people in a minority group who throughout the years have often suffered terribly, including being killed, for being part of said group. I honestly don’t care whether or not you know any gay people. But since you don’t, then at least show some respect and don’t stereotype them.

‘I’ did not stereotype him. The 14 observed him and offered her opinion. I only said that stereotypes sometimes exist for a reason. 

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

‘I’ did not stereotype him. The 14 observed him and offered her opinion. I only said that stereotypes sometimes exist for a reason. 

Meaning what then? You seemed to be agreeing with her stereotype as you said she was probably right. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Frances

[Tanaqui]

I believe the argument is that "transgender" is who they are, not a thing in the past that was done to them. Sometimes these general preferences are a little random - like, we usually say "disabled" instead of "handicapped" because that's what disabled people prefer, but there's not really a rhyme or reason there. On the whole, transgender people prefer transgender instead of transgendered and, as I'm sure you know, most autistics prefer "is autistic" to "has autism/asd". (Though, as always, if the individual you're speaking with makes it clear they prefer a different usage, you should generally follow their lead. And, of course, plenty of people have no clear preference.)

(Actually, I think we mostly say "people with disabilities" now, though I tend to balk because I know that PFL has been inflicted on many groups of PWDs without input from those people themselves, and now I just don't like it.)

Edited June 7, 2021 by Tanaqui

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, Frances said:

Meaning what then? You seemed to be agreeing with her stereotype as you said she was probably right. 

Maybe she was! You know less about it than the girl who was there, so why are you arguing against it so hard. 

[Frances]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Maybe she was! You know less about it than the girl who was there, so why are you arguing against it so hard. 

I’ve explained repeatedly that I’m not that bothered by what she said because of her age. She’s young and still likely learning that we shouldn’t stereotype people, especially those in minority groups who have often suffered greatly due to being stereotyped. I expect more from adults, especially on the WTM board.

 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I’ve explained repeatedly that I’m not that bothered by what she said because of her age. She’s young and still likely learning that we shouldn’t stereotype people, especially those in minority groups who have often suffered greatly due to being stereotyped. I expect more from adults, especially on the WTM board.

 

So you somehow have exclusive knowledge that her perceptions were completely wrong. Because you know, you are educated and not young.

[Frances]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So you somehow have exclusive knowledge that her perceptions were completely wrong. Because you know, you are educated and not young.

Never said they were wrong, just unlikely. And whether they are correct or incorrect is not the point. They are based on a stereotype. And being educated on the potential harm of stereotypes and knowing history related to them is the type of education I’m talking about. It’s available to anyone who wants to learn.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Frances

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

(And I get it....I have a kid with an ASD diagnosis who doesn't really fit the stereotypes, but I think that she, when I'm talking about her in particular, but in the absence of that, it's respectful to go with the terminology the community has a whole has expressed a preference for.)

I'm often a bit skeptical of the idea that "the community as a whole" has expressed a preference. Often, that just means that the loudest people (on Twitter or with blogs) have expressed a preference... 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm often a bit skeptical of the idea that "the community as a whole" has expressed a preference. Often, that just means that the loudest people (on Twitter or with blogs) have expressed a preference... 

I agree this can be true. My kid with ASD takes whatever is being said on autism tik toks as gospel truth and woe betide if I suggest there might be other valid opinions.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

She can perceive whatever she wants to perceive. That doesn’t mean she’s not stereotyping people and it shouldn’t be discussed with her. She may very well be correct in her assessment (although personally I think it’s quite the stretch), but that doesn’t make it right to assume that all gay people are going to act a certain way because it’s pride month. Anymore that all woman or all blacks or all fill in the blank think or act the same way because of their being part of a particular group.

My daughter didn't say anything about "all gay people."  She said something about the individual in front of her who was referring to her in a certain way on a certain day.

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm often a bit skeptical of the idea that "the community as a whole" has expressed a preference. Often, that just means that the loudest people (on Twitter or with blogs) have expressed a preference... 

 

Sure, okay. Do you prefer for the term to be imposed from outside entirely, without input from the people it's describing?

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

Meaning what then? You seemed to be agreeing with her stereotype as you said she was probably right. 

Why are you saying the 14yo stereotyped the CVS guy?

[Frances]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

My daughter didn't say anything about "all gay people."  She said something about the individual in front of her who was referring to her in a certain way on a certain day.

No, she did not. She said something about one person she assumed was gay based on his membership in that group. That he thought and behaved in a certain way because it was Pride month and he was gay.

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

No, she did not. She said something about one person she assumed was gay based on his membership in that group. That he thought and behaved in a certain way because it was Pride month and he was gay.

She observed his speech and behavior and saw evidence (in her opinion) that (a) he was probably gay and (b) he was intentionally refusing to use gendered pronouns.  Since (b) is rather odd, she wondered why someone would do that.  She is very aware that it's pride month and that people are doing things because of pride month - it's everywhere at school and on the internet.  So that was a possibility in her mind.

I don't know if he was gay.  I don't really have "gaydar" as young people call it.  I wasn't thinking about his sexual orientation, I was just trying to get my kid registered for the shot.  My kids know a lot of people who are gay, so I guess they think they can tell.  Whatever.  A lot of people are gay.  We don't care.

I only mentioned my kid's comment to show that, yes, she noticed being "they'd" and didn't think it was either accidental or normal.  If people think they are doing us a favor by calling us "they" when we use a gendered pronoun, they are mistaken.

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

She observed his speech and behavior and saw evidence (in her opinion) that (a) he was probably gay and (b) he was intentionally refusing to use gendered pronouns.  Since (b) is rather odd, she wondered why someone would do that.  She is very aware that it's pride month and that people are doing things because of pride month - it's everywhere at school and on the internet.  So that was a possibility in her mind.

I don't know if he was gay.  I don't really have "gaydar" as young people call it.  I wasn't thinking about his sexual orientation, I was just trying to get my kid registered for the shot.  My kids know a lot of people who are gay, so I guess they think they can tell.  Whatever.  A lot of people are gay.  We don't care.

I only mentioned my kid's comment to show that, yes, she noticed being "they'd" and didn't think it was either accidental or normal.  If people think they are doing us a favor by calling us "they" when we use a gendered pronoun, they are mistaken.

Yep, that’s how I understood the situation. And just to be clear, I’m not saying she was stereotyping him by thinking he was gay. 

[SKL]

33 minutes ago, Frances said:

No, she did not. She said something about one person she assumed was gay based on his membership in that group. That he thought and behaved in a certain way because it was Pride month and he was gay.

She put a, b, and c together and thought, maybe there's a connection.

Sounds like something humans do all the time.

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

She put a, b, and c together and thought, maybe there's a connection.

Sounds like something humans do all the time.

Yep, it is. Doesn’t necessarily mean it’s always a good or neutral thing. I’m sure you can think of lots of examples, both big and small, where it is not.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Frances

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

Yep, it is. Doesn’t necessarily mean it’s always a good or neutral thing. I’m sure you can think of lots of examples, both big and small, where it is not.

You may note that I never said it was good or correct.

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

You may note that I never said it was good or correct.

Then why are you upset that I suggested she was stereotyping? 

[SKL]

11 minutes ago, Frances said:

Then why are you upset that I suggested she was stereotyping? 

I am not upset.

But I also don't agree with your term.  For her to be stereotyping, that would mean she thinks all gay people are going around making "statements" during pride month.  She does not think that, and did not say anything to imply that.  She was talking about one individual who was acting a certain way.  You are the one making the stretch to "she must think that way about all gay people."

[Frances]

21 minutes ago, SKL said:

I am not upset.

But I also don't agree with your term.  For her to be stereotyping, that would mean she thinks all gay people are going around making "statements" during pride month.  She does not think that, and did not say anything to imply that.  She was talking about one individual who was acting a certain way.  You are the one making the stretch to "she must think that way about all gay people."

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

[Not_a_Number]

5 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Sure, okay. Do you prefer for the term to be imposed from outside entirely, without input from the people it's describing?

No. But then that wasn’t really a question, right?

[hippymamato3]

15 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

It was my understanding that transgender means not identifying as the gender you were "assigned" at birth.  Since no one is assigned "non binary" then by that definition, isn't a "non binary" person considered "transgendered?"  They are not "male" or "female" but some other....additional...gender. 

 

 

The people in my life who are non binary refer to themselves as "nonbinary transgender."