Xahm Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 I'm looking for something that I hope you can help me with. I want a book/lecture series/whatever that will help me study the Bible in an academic but also spiritual way. I've been in lots of Bible studies all my life, heard hundreds of sermons, and read it cover to cover. I'm not currently getting anything out of group studies where we answer basic questions about the text and how we feel it applies to our lives. When I'm in those, I feel incredibly frustrated at how intellectually shallow the "discussion" is, and it makes it hard for me to engage spiritually, if that makes any sense. What I want is something that goes through and says: here's historical/social/cultural background for this passage. Here's how it was interpreted by Jewish scholars, here's how the early church interpreted it, here are several ways it is understood in modern times. I don't want anything that intends to "debunk" anything, whether it's a secularist debunking the spiritual or a fundamentalist debunking anything that isn't fundamentalism. For example, I heard a talk in the last year that interpreted the feeding of the 5,000 as a miracle of generosity, that when the crowds saw the willingness of the child, they suddenly realized that the little bits that many of them had, if shared, would be more than enough to feed everyone. Looking at it this way opened up many interesting interpretations and lessons that I hadn't thought of before. Does anyone have any leads for me? If it had a social component, like online forums, that would be great, but just a book or lecture series would be fine. PS This wouldn't be intended to replace personal Bible reading, but hopefully it would add depth and insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonfirmath Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 Have you tried a PRecept study? They really dig deep. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpleowl Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 What I've found works for me is reading a commentary alongside Scripture. I am starting with suggested commentaries from the posts linked here (a post for each book of the Bible). I have really loved the ones I've read by Dale Ralph Davis - here's his commentary on 1 Samuel, as an example. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 Many seminaries (and some colleges) have courses availble for free on itunes. Choose one that fits your theological parameters. They assume an academic mindset, which would seem to suit your search. I have really enjoyed courses from Westminster Theological Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary, Knox Seminary and Hillsdale College. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 I have enjoyed Explorers Bible Study books. I have done most of the adult series. It is 6 days a week with a commentary and goes through a book of the Bible verse by verse. Takes 15 minutes or so a day. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 I don’t like the ‘What does this mean to me’ studies, either. To me they mostly miss the point, which is ‘What does God mean to say here?’ There are two studies that I have used lately that are pretty deep and involve close readings of the texts with historical context and interpretations that I’m very happy to recommend. Both by the same author, Elizabeth Ahlman. “Ruth: More Than A Love Story” “Demystifying the Proverbs 31 Woman” 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaplank Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 You sound very similar to me. I'm participating in the Renovare book club for the first time this year and I love it. We read 4 books deeply along with other materials that go with the book. There are online discussion groups and forums as well as online small groups. https://renovare.org/bookclub If the book club is not your thing, you can try other resources by them. Here is one of my favorites.https://www.christianbook.com/devotional-classics-revised-and-expanded/9780060777500/pd/77508?en=google&event=SHOP&kw=christian-living-0-20|77508&p=1179710&dv=c&gclid=Cj0KCQiA2af-BRDzARIsAIVQUOfI5X-hZX5RTs1VsxbthiEMM3Gj9O1FWdgMOiCQzcDYsCdIaJ0rHXgaAu4TEALw_wcB#CBD-PD-Description They also have a podcast you can check out too. Also, their website has amazing resources. All are very deep and insightful, with spiritual formation as the focus. https://renovare.org/ https://renovare.org/podcast 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 Thank you all for these suggestions. I'll be looking into all of them. I especially like the idea of an online book club. It's hard to find like-minded people for a Bible study for me. I love being part of a community where different people are all in different places on their spiritual journey, coming from different backgrounds, with varied priorities coming from their circumstances, personalities, etc. That's really important, and I have learned so much about life from people who are different from me. At the same time, I think about things differently from other people and want to be able to share my thoughts without being treated like a dangerous weirdo. I like thought experiments, asking questions. That is how I engage with text and how I challenge my thinking and grow as a person and as a Christian. Not everyone is like that and not everyone needs to be. An elderly woman who answered God's call to the mission field in Russia springs to mind. She was fairly uneducated, certainly hadn't gone to college, and didn't speak Russian, though she was trying her hardest to learn, but it was slow going. I couldn't relate to her well. She told me she honestly, sincerely, had never doubted God or anything in the Bible. For me, the only way that could be true in my life would have been if I had turned off my brain entirely, because I grow through doubt. This undoubting faith of hers led her away from her loved ones into a frozen country that terrified her. I couldn't see how this was a good idea or how she could make a difference. But I saw her connecting to the poor of the country, getting to know the scrub women and store clerks, many of whom were immigrants who spoke Russian poorly themselves. Through her, I came to understand that people relate to God in really, really different ways, and those different ways are gifts, akin to the different parts of the body of Christ. I don't want to separate from that body. But at the same time, I feel scared in general type Bible studies, ones like BSF or CBS, because many people don't deal well with ambiguity and I don't want to cause a weaker brother or sister to stumble or to reject me. As a teenager, I learned about rejection in the church when I fell in love with the book of Ecclesiastes. Here was a whole book of the Bible written by someone who thought so much like me! There was faith in doubt. It soothed my soul. However, whenever the favorite question of pastors/small group leaders/chaplains came up, "What's your favorite Bible passage?" I always got nervous, shifty eyes from those around me. At my Christian college, a seminary student basically pulled me aside to explain "wrong answer, just say Romans instead." I don't want to insulate myself away from those who are different. I recognize how vital those connections are. At the same time, for study, I want people who face ideas the way I do, who like to hold contradictory points of view up for examination, ruminate over them, allow themselves to feel that discomfort, and grow from it. How do I find those people? Any time I try I feel like I'm going to offend those who do benefit from the studies that make me want to bang my head into a wall. If none of this makes sense to you, if it makes you worry for my soul, don't. Trust me and trust God that when my brain is activated by being pushed and challenged to ask questions and doubt myself, I get far more out of my personal Bible study later, that I see God's work in my life and his guidance. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Xahm said: Thank you all for these suggestions. I'll be looking into all of them. I especially like the idea of an online book club. It's hard to find like-minded people for a Bible study for me. I love being part of a community where different people are all in different places on their spiritual journey, coming from different backgrounds, with varied priorities coming from their circumstances, personalities, etc. That's really important, and I have learned so much about life from people who are different from me. At the same time, I think about things differently from other people and want to be able to share my thoughts without being treated like a dangerous weirdo. I like thought experiments, asking questions. That is how I engage with text and how I challenge my thinking and grow as a person and as a Christian. Not everyone is like that and not everyone needs to be. An elderly woman who answered God's call to the mission field in Russia springs to mind. She was fairly uneducated, certainly hadn't gone to college, and didn't speak Russian, though she was trying her hardest to learn, but it was slow going. I couldn't relate to her well. She told me she honestly, sincerely, had never doubted God or anything in the Bible. For me, the only way that could be true in my life would have been if I had turned off my brain entirely, because I grow through doubt. This undoubting faith of hers led her away from her loved ones into a frozen country that terrified her. I couldn't see how this was a good idea or how she could make a difference. But I saw her connecting to the poor of the country, getting to know the scrub women and store clerks, many of whom were immigrants who spoke Russian poorly themselves. Through her, I came to understand that people relate to God in really, really different ways, and those different ways are gifts, akin to the different parts of the body of Christ. I don't want to separate from that body. But at the same time, I feel scared in general type Bible studies, ones like BSF or CBS, because many people don't deal well with ambiguity and I don't want to cause a weaker brother or sister to stumble or to reject me. As a teenager, I learned about rejection in the church when I fell in love with the book of Ecclesiastes. Here was a whole book of the Bible written by someone who thought so much like me! There was faith in doubt. It soothed my soul. However, whenever the favorite question of pastors/small group leaders/chaplains came up, "What's your favorite Bible passage?" I always got nervous, shifty eyes from those around me. At my Christian college, a seminary student basically pulled me aside to explain "wrong answer, just say Romans instead." I don't want to insulate myself away from those who are different. I recognize how vital those connections are. At the same time, for study, I want people who face ideas the way I do, who like to hold contradictory points of view up for examination, ruminate over them, allow themselves to feel that discomfort, and grow from it. How do I find those people? Any time I try I feel like I'm going to offend those who do benefit from the studies that make me want to bang my head into a wall. If none of this makes sense to you, if it makes you worry for my soul, don't. Trust me and trust God that when my brain is activated by being pushed and challenged to ask questions and doubt myself, I get far more out of my personal Bible study later, that I see God's work in my life and his guidance. I’m with you. I like Ecclesiastes. Not so much because it’s doubting, but because it’s old and wise and a little melancholy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 10 hours ago, Xahm said: pushed and challenged to ask questions Fwiw, I think you're looking for a systematic theology and the writings of christian philosophers, not so much Bible studies. That's what they do, asking questions. The only question is what would be your starting point. You want undergrad/adult level or you want grad level? I knew doctoral students at a state university who were reading through Calvin's Institutes, but that's jumping in the deep end. In general, most people would start with something more accessible like https://www.christianbook.com/theology-popular-systematic-understanding-biblical-truth/charles-ryrie/9780802427342/pd/42734?event=ESRCN|M Ryrie's Basic Theology (undergrad level, very accessible) https://www.christianbook.com/systematic-introduction-biblical-doctrine-second-edition/wayne-grudem/9780310517979/pd/517979?event=ESRCN|M or Grudem's Systematic Theology (grad level, a little stiffer) Grad level theology study is question driven, so it's FINE to question and question hard. I always told my daughter that the truth stands up to scrutiny and that she can question anything. I think in your case the key is to connect with people who are asking those questions. You can search and see who resonates with you, but some ideas https://www.christianbook.com/by-searching-isobel-kuhn/9780802400536/pd/400531?event=ESRCG This is more of a biography, but you might resonate with biographies of people who have questioned. https://www.christianbook.com/surprised-by-joy-c-s-lewis/9780062565433/pd/565433?event=ESRCG anything by cs lewis https://www.christianbook.com/unoffendable-just-change-make-life-better/brant-hansen/9780529123855/pd/12385X?event=ESRCG a guy on the spectrum who sees issues very differently from others around him and asks questions https://www.christianbook.com/how-now-shall-we-live-softcover/charles-colson/9780842355889/pd/55885?product_redirect=1&search_term=nancy pearc&Ntt=55885&item_code=WW&ps_exit=PRODUCT&Ntk=keywords&event=ESRCP If you don't like this one, look for other books by Nancy Pearcey. She teaches at (pick name of university) and is in that modern christian philosopher vein. Stiff stuff and she has books on hard topics. She might be exploring questions you're asking. She's riffing here on Francis Schaeffer, so of course anything by him might interest you too. https://www.christianbook.com/questions-about-faith-answers-difficult-teens/charles-colson/9781414312972/pd/312970?event=PRCBD1 I have no clue if these are your questions, but there are books on questions. And then I'll just add some comments. I'm kind of charmed by your "old lady who was a missionary to Russia" and wondered how old you are and how old the "old lady" is, hehe. I mean, too old and she wouldn't even have gotten in. I'm showing my age there. And I went there for a summer, living with a family, working with a church, so it's of interest. Anyways, I want to be very discrete here but I will say that you can't always tell how many people think like you, or at least don't think like the group you're not feeling so kin in, because THOSE PEOPLE DON'T SHOW UP. It's the old thing where the church thinks they're serving people fine when the people they're *not* serving simply *aren't showing up*. As a person with social thinking differences, I don't really do well in Bible studies. I stand out like a sore thumb, don't see passages like anyone else, and generally can't participate. If I said what I knew/think, I'd get castigated. I often see the passage very differently from the teacher (because I have a lot of background, because I see things differently). So it's a shut up exercise for me. I think you might like to consider trying to find another Bible study group, if your church overall is satisfactory. Many people float just for Bible studies. I find there are churches that are VERY into the word. Like every church has a thing. We were at a church that was very into the word, but ds was having a hard time. So now we're at a church that is more about "worship" and their corporate and fellowship and all that jazz. And it's fine too. But there are churches out there who are creating that more serious vibe and having some serious Bible study classes. You might find them in a university town. It's usually going to be doctoral students, more educated people who are leading or participating who are open to these levels of questions. They won't mind them, because that's how they think. So that could be a strategy too, to keep looking. You know, as I think about it, it also seems like the church ought to be offering up mentors for that. Like I have enough background, that if you were in church with me and local I'd just have you over and let you ask those questions. Wouldn't rattle me, and what I didn't know we'd learn how to figure out together. And that's what I'd be pulling out, my stash of systematic theology books. They have indices and they explore things in terms of hard questions. You can even look up in them by passage. So if such and such verse is bugging you, you can look it up in the systematic theology! Another way to approach this would be to consider some software like Accordance or Logos. Another idea would be to *google* the verses in question. You can usually find writings from a variety of viewpoints online simply by typing in the reference or part of the verse. Doing your own study to answer your questions might tame that beast enough that you can participate in the group in the way they expect and not be so frustrated. Though I admit, being told vagueness about the miracles of Christ probably would be very frustrating to me. I'd be wondering if it was time to find a new church. Christ was pretty clear about why He did the miracles, lol. The Bible says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I think that includes the angst and questions you're talking about. It's normal, it's good, so keep doing it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 I was in a place similar to you, and found that what I really needed to do was to keep reading theology on my own for awhile. That eventually linked me to churches which now, given Covid, hold online Bible studies even if you don't attend that church. I started following one theologian who led me to another, and another. I'd recommend books by Greg Boyd, starting with: Benefit of the Doubt The Jesus Legend Myth of a Christian Nation God of the Possible I'd also recommend his sermon series with titles such as "Twisted Scripture." He talks about different interpretations that the church has latched on to as dogma, but which he believes were misinterpreted. He's a really interesting guy because he's brilliant and reads like crazy. (And he has ADHD and needs very little sleep!) He started as an atheist, but was always interested in the idea of God. He learns new languages in order to read books in their original language. He has an in-depth knowledge of history apart from theology. He always likes to provide the full background to Scripture. His podcasts are really insightful too. https://reknew.org https://whchurch.org/sermon/ (His church also has lots of online Bible studies you can join, if you connect with his theology.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted December 6, 2020 Author Share Posted December 6, 2020 9 hours ago, PeterPan said: And then I'll just add some comments. I'm kind of charmed by your "old lady who was a missionary to Russia" and wondered how old you are and how old the "old lady" is, hehe. I mean, too old and she wouldn't even have gotten in. I'm showing my age there. And I went there for a summer, living with a family, working with a church, so it's of interest. Thanks for all your suggestions and thoughts. A big part of the difficulty in finding a good for me Bible study is that I'm neck deep in the little kids years (2,4,7,8) and my husband works odd hours and travels for extended periods of time. I'm at the mercy of which groups offer child care. At church I attend (via Zoom these days) the Sunday School class that's mostly parents of young families, and it's more a social support group than a study group (partly because we're the demographic that gets asked to volunteer a lot, so most people don't get to stay the whole hour). I think if I could find an online book club related to theology that had asynchronous discussions, it would be my best bet, so I'll be looking closely at the one recommended above. Regarding the "old lady:" I was fresh out of college at the time, teaching English not as a missionary, but there weren't very many Americans around and I became very close to a missionary family and got to learn a lot about the work going on. You can send me a private message if you are curious for more detail. The woman had, I believe, adultish grandchildren but probably got married young, so I think she had to have been around 65. That isn't ancient, but it's an age at which it's remarkable to leave behind all you've known and start learning a remarkably tricky language. That missionary family was awesome. They disagreed with me about lots of things, but in a "discuss this for hours and be shocked at how late it's gotten" kind of way. Some of the best times of my life and best lessons I've learned. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 https://biblicalelearning.org/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 I just found this one and am hoping to do it with a friend that is seeking. It is called Story of HopeHope It is for seekers and new Christians but I thought that even if I do it alone it will be a great foundation for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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