"Woke" culture

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I have feelings about things like proposed shutdowns and energy policies that could again make us dependent on regimes that have bad civil rights abuse records.  But those don't make me feel "unsafe" in the home of friend or relative, regardless of how said loved one voted.  I might feel disappointed, annoyed, frustrated.  But "unsafe here" is frankly nonsense and was almost certainly inspired by outside forces vs. an actual feeling of immediate fear.

I think "unsafe" merely means "not emotionally safe." I agree that it's provocative phrasing, and I don't love it, but it's also common nowadays. 

My example was to demonstrate that there ARE policies that might actually make you feel unsafe. There are, right? 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I think a more accurate view of it is "I don't feel safe with you if you choose as a leader/authority figure someone that reminds me of the man who just assaulted me." That's the disconnect here. It wasn't merely about a political choice. It was about whether the parent would choose the perpetrator over the child. That may or may not seem rational to some but I can TOTALLY see that perspective. Kids want their parents to protect them above all. In this family, I think that desire could be even stronger.

Considering that a significant % of the past candidates on both sides (including both of the current ones) have had actual or alleged incidents that could make females feel unsafe in the room with said candidate, does this mean we shouldn't vote at all in case someone in our lives might make this kind of association? 

Again, I find this to be an irrational reaction and I would address it as such.  If it was my kid, I would explain what my top concerns were that led me to vote the way I did, and I would state truthfully that as far as personality or morals, neither candidate was above reproach; far from it.  And if that wasn't enough, then oh well.  I would fall back on "I'm sure you will prove to be right ... let's see how the next 4 years play out and you can show me how all your predictions came to pass."

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Considering that a significant % of the past candidates on both sides (including both of the current ones) have had actual or alleged incidents that could make females feel unsafe in the room with said candidate, does this mean we shouldn't vote at all in case someone in our lives might make this kind of association? 

I'm trying to not go down political paths, but it's a bit hard with statements like this, which really ask for a fact check. 

 

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I would fall back on "I'm sure you will prove to be right ... let's see how the next 4 years play out and you can show me how all your predictions came to pass."

That seems dismissive, I have to say. Do you think it's ever the case that your kid might have a point and you may learn from it, as well as vice versa? 

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think "unsafe" merely means "not emotionally safe." I agree that it's provocative phrasing, and I don't love it, but it's also common nowadays. 

My example was to demonstrate that there ARE policies that might actually make you feel unsafe. There are, right? 

Not unsafe in the home of the person who voted differently.  Not unsafe in the sense that I am in immediate grave danger.  I may feel a bit insecure about certain things when I think into the future.  That would be the closest it could get to "unsafe" in the context of any US administration or candidate I've seen in my lifetime.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Considering that a significant % of the past candidates on both sides (including both of the current ones) have had actual or alleged incidents that could make females feel unsafe in the room with said candidate, does this mean we shouldn't vote at all in case someone in our lives might make this kind of association? 

Again, I find this to be an irrational reaction and I would address it as such.  If it was my kid, I would explain what my top concerns were that led me to vote the way I did, and I would state truthfully that as far as personality or morals, neither candidate was above reproach; far from it.  And if that wasn't enough, then oh well.  I would fall back on "I'm sure you will prove to be right ... let's see how the next 4 years play out and you can show me how all your predictions came to pass."

I'm not suggesting a significant number of candidates don't have this issue, this is why we need more women in politics. I'm suggesting that its silly to pretend this particular candidate doesn't have an especially egregious and lengthy history in that regard. I don't find the daughter's feelings irrational at all but clearly the OP did and made the comment she did as a result, as is her right. I just don't think those kinds of comments are at all beneficial in maintaining healthy relationships with your kids. It is possible to disagree with the child's assessment of things and not basically say that you would happily kick your kid to the curb for disagreeing with you. I can only say that, from my experience, that hardline approach doesn't end well. It's just as likely that the child stops talking about important things with that parent and it creates estrangement.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Not unsafe in the home of the person who voted differently.  Not unsafe in the sense that I am in immediate grave danger.  I may feel a bit insecure about certain things when I think into the future.  That would be the closest it could get to "unsafe" in the context of any US administration or candidate I've seen in my lifetime.

That's lucky for you. DH had a student who was a DACA recipient who had a different take in 2016. Whatever you think about the policies, you have to admit that she had a reasonable concern. 

Personally, I didn't feel in "grave danger" but I was quite worried about getting my citizenship. (I have a green card.) 

But either way, the sentence doesn't mean "in grave danger." It means "I don't feel comfortable talking to you about my issues." You can, of course, choose to become offended by that statement, but I don't think that's in the best interest of the relationship. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm trying to not go down political paths, but it's a bit hard with statements like this, which really ask for a fact check. 

 

That seems dismissive, I have to say. Do you think it's ever the case that your kid might have a point and you may learn from it, as well as vice versa? 

I am sure my kids have a point when they argue with me.  I do have 40 years of experience on them, but like I said, that doesn't prove I know better. 

Honestly, I don't care if it is dismissive.  I say dismissive things to my kids every day.  "I don't care if you don't want to take a shower.  I don't care if you think your teacher is a hag.  I don't care if you don't like the restaurant your sister chose for tonight's dinner."

The other thing is that, guess what, pretty much every mature woman has had men treat them in ways that feel uncomfortable or worse.  It has happened to me so many times in my 54 years.  If anyone has a right to feel "unsafe" about creepy men, it's me, but I'm rational.  Put me alone in the room with a creep, that's one thing.  Cast a vote when both of the guys have questioned pasts, that's a whole other thing.

Perhaps what is more important is, why don't some young (and some not-so-young) people understand that there are big issues being decided in elections ... issues that far outweigh how we personally feel about the alleged personalities of two people we will never meet?

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I'm not suggesting a significant number of candidates don't have this issue, this is why we need more women in politics. I'm suggesting that its silly to pretend this particular candidate doesn't have an especially egregious and lengthy history in that regard. I don't find the daughter's feelings irrational at all but clearly the OP did and made the comment she did as a result, as is her right. I just don't think those kinds of comments are at all beneficial in maintaining healthy relationships with your kids. It is possible to disagree with the child's assessment of things and not basically say that you would happily kick your kid to the curb for disagreeing with you. I can only say that, from my experience, that hardline approach doesn't end well. It's just as likely that the child stops talking about important things with that parent and it creates estrangement.

I dunno, I guess this depends on the relationship.  There were many times my mom quipped, "there's the door, don't let it hit your a$$ on the way out."  Translation:  this is my house, I get to be who I am here, you get to decide how much time you spend here.  I would never have taken it as "kicking me to the curb."  It just meant I have to respect a person's rights in their own home, which is honestly something all young adults need to do.  I mean if my mom can't speak her mind in her own home, where can she?  Isn't that more of an attack on her than on me?

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

Perhaps what is more important is, why don't some young (and some not-so-young) people understand that there are big issues being decided in elections ... issues that far outweigh how we personally feel about the alleged personalities of two people we will never meet?

I personally don't have high expectations for the morals of the people we elect, although I do feel like there ought to be SOME standards. And you do, too. You probably wouldn't elect a murderer. 

 

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Honestly, I don't care if it is dismissive.  I say dismissive things to my kids every day.  "I don't care if you don't want to take a shower.  I don't care if you think your teacher is a hag.  I don't care if you don't like the restaurant your sister chose for tonight's dinner."

You're right. Those do sound dismissive. I would think there's some space between "You can't have your way" and "I don't care how you feel." It's not like I NEVER say those words, but they seem like they ought to be saved for particularly frustrating situations. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

I dunno, I guess this depends on the relationship.  There were many times my mom quipped, "there's the door, don't let it hit your a$$ on the way out."  Translation:  this is my house, I get to be who I am here, you get to decide how much time you spend here.  I would never have taken it as "kicking me to the curb."  It just meant I have to respect a person's rights in their own home, which is honestly something all young adults need to do.  I mean if my mom can't speak her mind in her own home, where can she?  Isn't that more of an attack on her than on me?

Everyone figures out what they are comfortable with. Your mom decides to speak her mind, you decide how much time you spend with her. You can't stop her. But you don't have to visit. 

I'm not saying that's the decision you made, but some people do. Assuming your kids HAVE to spend time with you isn't a great idea in this day and age. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

I dunno, I guess this depends on the relationship.  There were many times my mom quipped, "there's the door, don't let it hit your a$$ on the way out."  Translation:  this is my house, I get to be who I am here, you get to decide how much time you spend here.  I would never have taken it as "kicking me to the curb."  It just meant I have to respect a person's rights in their own home, which is honestly something all young adults need to do.  I mean if my mom can't speak her mind in her own home, where can she?  Isn't that more of an attack on her than on me?

Depends on the issue. Are we talking about what's for dinner or whether you're siding with an abuser over me? The two issues aren't quite in the same league. Still, I've never told my children anything like that in part because my family situation was so unstable that it felt way below the belt when it was said to me. I suspect OP's family is more similar to mine in that regard but don't know for sure. Withholding financial and/or emotional support was a favorite parental tactic in my family.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's lucky for you. DH had a student who was a DACA recipient who had a different take in 2016. Whatever you think about the policies, you have to admit that she had a reasonable concern. 

Personally, I didn't feel in "grave danger" but I was quite worried about getting my citizenship. (I have a green card.) 

But either way, the sentence doesn't mean "in grave danger." It means "I don't feel comfortable talking to you about my issues." You can, of course, choose to become offended by that statement, but I don't think that's in the best interest of the relationship. 

Well first of all, IMO "I don't feel safe here" does NOT mean "I don't feel comfortable talking to you about my issues."  So yeah, it's an incredibly poor choice of words if the intent was anything other than a slap in the face.

Secondly, DACA recipients have always had reasonable concerns and will continue to have them, because DACA was/is a failure to provide any kind of closure or any timeline for it.  But that's not the point of this thread.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

Well first of all, IMO "I don't feel safe here" does NOT mean "I don't feel comfortable talking to you about my issues."  So yeah, it's an incredibly poor choice of words if the intent was anything other than a slap in the face.

Secondly, DACA recipients have always had reasonable concerns and will continue to have them, because DACA was/is a failure to provide any kind of closure or any timeline for it.  But that's not the point of this thread.

The point is that someone can actually feel unsafe in this day and age with a legally elected official.

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

You're right. Those do sound dismissive. I would think there's some space between "You can't have your way" and "I don't care how you feel." It's not like I NEVER say those words, but they seem like they ought to be saved for particularly frustrating situations. 

I am sure you are right.  Check back with me when you have two sassy teen daughters and you can tell me all the ways you handled it better.  🙂

FTR I don't always say "I don't care," but when they are getting on my last nerve over stupid things, you bet I say it.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well first of all, IMO "I don't feel safe here" does NOT mean "I don't feel comfortable talking to you about my issues."  So yeah, it's an incredibly poor choice of words if the intent was anything other than a slap in the face.

WRT the first part, this is how most of the young people I know use this phrase. You can rail about its legitimacy or accuracy but this is typically what they mean and it's useful to know that because it is so common. You may hear this among people you interact with professionally as these young people enter the workforce. *THEY* understand it.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

I am sure you are right.  Check back with me when you have two sassy teen daughters and you can tell me all the ways you handled it better.  🙂

FTR I don't always say "I don't care," but when they are getting on my last nerve over stupid things, you bet I say it.

I see you can apply the same tactic to anyone, not just teens...

[regentrude]

30 minutes ago, SKL said:

Not unsafe in the home of the person who voted differently.  Not unsafe in the sense that I am in immediate grave danger.  I may feel a bit insecure about certain things when I think into the future.  That would be the closest it could get to "unsafe" in the context of any US administration or candidate I've seen in my lifetime.

The statement has to be read in context with the mother's dismissive attitude about the daughter's sexual harrassment. If the mother makes it clear that she thinks getting upset about being touched is silly and that wanting therapy is nonsense and that wanting a female therapist is unnecessary, it would contribute to not feeling safe to disclose personal and painful experiences because she doesn't feel taken seriously and supported. In other words: I don't feel safe because I can't trust you to have my back.

Edited November 7, 2020 by regentrude

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Everyone figures out what they are comfortable with. Your mom decides to speak her mind, you decide how much time you spend with her. You can't stop her. But you don't have to visit. 

I'm not saying that's the decision you made, but some people do. Assuming your kids HAVE to spend time with you isn't a great idea in this day and age. 

But IMO it's more respectful overall (both sides considered) to say "you are free to leave if you feel the need" than "I am not free to be me in my own house."

And let's be honest, it's not like the OP came up to her daughter and spewed nastiness to start the conversation.  The OP's offense was voting for a candidate that over 70 million other people also voted for.  THAT was a reason to feel ashamed and make apologies in her own house?  Sorry, no.

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The point is that someone can actually feel unsafe in this day and age with a legally elected official.

But that's not what was happening in the OP.  So IMO it is not relevant here.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

But that's not what was happening in the OP.  So IMO it is not relevant here.

I was just giving the example that it's possible to feel unsafe even due to a legal election. But it's not relevant in the context of how the phrase was used, anyway, you're right. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

But IMO it's more respectful overall (both sides considered) to say "you are free to leave if you feel the need" than "I am not free to be me in my own house."

And let's be honest, it's not like the OP came up to her daughter and spewed nastiness to start the conversation.  The OP's offense was voting for a candidate that over 70 million other people also voted for.  THAT was a reason to feel ashamed and make apologies in her own house?  Sorry, no.

Again, this is a family with a financially/emotionally abusive and absent father. A child who's just been traumatized at work and is dealing with who knows what other issues. If you think 'Don't let the door hitcha!' Is an appropriate response to 'I'm feeling unsafe', I just don't know what to say other than good luck with that.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

But IMO it's more respectful overall (both sides considered) to say "you are free to leave if you feel the need" than "I am not free to be me in my own house."

I'm not sure why those are the options. Does "being oneself" require you to be dismissive of what your daughter says? That's a bit of a slippery slope, no? If "being you" involves yelling or slapping, is the only recourse also leaving, or is one allowed to voice one's objections then? Why can't there be a negotiation of the relationship? 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[SKL]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

The statement has to be read in context with the mother's dismissive attitude about the daughter's sexual harrassment. If the mother makes it clear that she thinks getting upset about being touched is silly and that wanting therapy is nonsense and that wanting a female therapist is unnecessary, it would contribute to not feeling safe to disclose personal and painful experiences because she doesn't feel taken seriously and supported. In other words: I don't feel safe because I can't trust you to have my back.

If she said "feeling upset about being inappropriately touched is irrational," then yeah, wrong.  But if she said "associating my vote with your being touched inappropriately is irrational," then no, not wrong, especially given that the latter is almost certainly inspired by university "woke culture."

[Corraleno]

I don't think I have ever told my kids that I literally "didn't care" how they felt about something. I might tell them that I think their feelings are based on a misunderstanding or misinterpretation, or that certain very strong feelings are disproportionate to a given issue or event, or that they were expressing their feelings in a way that was counter-productive to finding the solution they wanted, etc. But the idea of saying "I don't care how you feel about this" just... honestly wouldn't cross my mind. 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not sure why those are the options. Does "being oneself" require you to be dismissive of what your daughter says? That's a bit of a slippery slope, no? If "being you" involves yelling or slapping, is the only recourse also leaving, or is one allowed to voice one's objections then? Why can't there be a negotiation of the relationship? 

Why are you bringing yelling and slapping into this?  The mom's offense was to cast a vote.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

If she said "feeling upset about being inappropriately touched is irrational," then yeah, wrong.  But if she said "associating my vote with your being touched inappropriately is irrational," then no, not wrong, especially given that the latter is almost certainly inspired by university "woke culture."

Oh, come on. You don't need to be inspired by "woke culture" to think that voting in someone who has had many allegations of assault and a few of rape might be problematic. You might not agree that it should determine your vote (frankly, I'm not sure I do think that), but you can see how it would bother someone!! 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

Why are you bringing yelling and slapping into this?  The mom's offense was to cast a vote.

Because you're saying "I need to be free to be me, however dismissive it is." But I'm sure you'd only apply that selectively. 

I'm not arguing that she needs to change her vote. I'm arguing that her kid complaining about being dismissed should be taken seriously, in the same way that complaints about other treatment need to be taken seriously. It's an analogy. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

But the idea of saying "I don't care how you feel about this" just... honestly wouldn't cross my mind. 

I've said it to my 4 year old when she doesn't want to go potty recently 😛 . But I try to avoid the phrasing in general. 

[Corraleno]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well first of all, IMO "I don't feel safe here" does NOT mean "I don't feel comfortable talking to you about my issues."  So yeah, it's an incredibly poor choice of words if the intent was anything other than a slap in the face.

As several people upthread pointed out, this seems to be a "generation gap" issue, because what the phrase means to young people, and what older people think it means, are two totally different things. And that reflects an even more fundamental issue that underlies so much conflict: the idea that there is only one possible interpretation or "reading" of something.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Well first of all, IMO "I don't feel safe here" does NOT mean "I don't feel comfortable talking to you about my issues."  So yeah, it's an incredibly poor choice of words if the intent was anything other than a slap in the face.

 

I have only been a parent in foster and adoption contexts and have a tendency to give significant credence to feelings of “being triggered” or “feeling unsafe” as there may very well be a trauma behind it. It can certainly be a reason to seek out therapy. Sometimes it can be a reason to try to change something significant.  And there have certainly been times I have made some personal change for love of children. I also do keep them and the idea of generations to come significantly in mind with regard to many decisions. 

The “Woke” situation tends to be different however, IME.  And I submitted the link to Barak Obama saying, you’ll get over it, because it seems to be a current frequent parenting stage for parents with late teens / young adults (obviously not all, but some) in USA to cope with that crosses political ideologies .  I am not entirely sure parents with younger kids or outside USA or with kids who aren’t in the Woke culture can completely understand. It reminds me some of non-parents being appalled that a parent might ignore a young toddler who says, “no” pretty much to everything. 

 

Unlike toddlers who say, “no,” the Woke movement may be over and passé (or morphed into a different form) by time some on here with little kids are to the late teen /young adult stage. Nonetheless,  I like your approach of saying, “I am older than you and have more years experience, but of course experience is not everything. You may be right and I may be wrong. When your kids are at the teen and young adult stage I look forward to hearing about how you handled it.”  I like it for kids and for adults. I plan to try it irl.   It does not even require the maturity and experience difference.

Perhaps, “Based on my experience which is different than yours, I think _____, because ______, but I may be wrong and you may be correct,” is enough. 

What do you think? Does it need an age and years difference? I think maybe not.

 

 

This also reminded me that I sometimes have asked a kid, “ If you were the parent, how would you handle this situation?” 

 

I do also try to keep in mind that both the toddler “no” and the young adult “I don’t feel safe” are probably manifestations of their own growth: maturing, separating, and becoming individuals (or at least separating from parents and taking on peer group cultural norms), and to take it as progress in their own lives, not a “slap in the face.”

 

Quote

 

Secondly, DACA recipients have always had reasonable concerns and will continue to have them, because DACA was/is a failure to provide any kind of closure or any timeline for it.  But that's not the point of this thread.

 

I listened to younger people I know, including persons of color and persons who arrived in US via a coyote transporter across US/Mexico border, and found that my prior “liberal” ideas were not what these particular people wanted for themselves. This was another of those emergence from one bubble into bigger bubble realizations. 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Pen

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Not unsafe in the home of the person who voted differently.  Not unsafe in the sense that I am in immediate grave danger.  I may feel a bit insecure about certain things when I think into the future.  That would be the closest it could get to "unsafe" in the context of any US administration or candidate I've seen in my lifetime.

But you are also a mature 50+ year old woman who has lots of lived experiences, not a young adult woman who just came of age under an administration that many top former leaders and officials within the party said had to go for many reasons (including his actions and words toward some women) for the good of the country, experienced the breakdown of her family, estrangement from her father, and unwanted sexual attention and touching from a male coworker (was this her first real, professional job too?). I’m not sure it’s really relevant how you would respond.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I am sure my kids have a point when they argue with me.  I do have 40 years of experience on them, but like I said, that doesn't prove I know better. 

Honestly, I don't care if it is dismissive.  I say dismissive things to my kids every day.  "I don't care if you don't want to take a shower.  I don't care if you think your teacher is a hag.  I don't care if you don't like the restaurant your sister chose for tonight's dinner."

The other thing is that, guess what, pretty much every mature woman has had men treat them in ways that feel uncomfortable or worse.  It has happened to me so many times in my 54 years.  If anyone has a right to feel "unsafe" about creepy men, it's me, but I'm rational.  Put me alone in the room with a creep, that's one thing.  Cast a vote when both of the guys have questioned pasts, that's a whole other thing.

Perhaps what is more important is, why don't some young (and some not-so-young) people understand that there are big issues being decided in elections ... issues that far outweigh how we personally feel about the alleged personalities of two people we will never meet?

I don’t know, why didn’t more people who voted to continue more of the same consider the knowledge and experience of numerous life long Rs who held top leadership positions in their party such as governors, senators, representatives, admirals, generals, national security officials, cabinet members, administration officials and staffs, etc. who said that this is not normal. We need to put country over party. We can hash out policies later when our country isn’t divided and led by a chaotic administration violating democratic norms and standards right and left? An ever increasing number of high ranking people and regular citizens within the party have been trying to get people to see the forest through the trees because this is not just another administration regardless of how badly some want it to be so.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Frances

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Frances said:

I don’t know, why didn’t more people who voted to continue more of the same consider the knowledge and experience of numerous life long Rs who held top leadership positions in their party such as governors, senators, representatives, admirals, generals, national security officials, cabinet members, administration officials and staffs, etc. who said that this is not normal. We need to put country over party. We can hash out policies later when our country isn’t divided and led by a chaotic administration violating democratic norms and standards right and left? An ever increasing number of high ranking people and regular citizens within the party have been trying to get people to see the forest through the trees because this is not just another administration regardless of badly some want it to be so.

This will get the thread shut down. Let's not. 

[Frances]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

This will get the thread shut down. Let's not. 

I know I shouldn’t have. I apologize. I just couldn’t let the comment go about young people not realizing what is at stake when they vote. I’ll refrain from posting more on this thread.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Frances said:

I know I shouldn’t have. I apologize. I just couldn’t let the comment go about young people not realizing what is at stake when they vote. I’ll refrain from posting more on this thread.

I think it's fine to post if you stay away from politics 😉 .

[Not_a_Number]

For the record, I don't have any teen children, but I've half-parented my 18-year old sister. She's coming to us for the holidays, because she doesn't want to deal with my mom. So I do have some experience with teens 😉 . 

[Moonhawk]

I'm not quoting anyone because I don't want this to seem like a targeted attack or criticism of a particular person(s) behavior. If you "see yourself" in this comment, please remember I am speaking from mine and DH's experiences, not yours. Your use and family dynamic are not on trial, I am not saying you are damaging your kids. Just sharing a perspective on something that came up.

The phrase "I don't care ... " from a parent to a child is not allowed in our house. This is something that DH is completely adamant about (read: traumatic childhood).

The reason this phrase sticks out to him is because even though what YOU are actually saying is

"your room needs to be clean before you can play" or

"broccoli is a necessary part of the dinner nutrients" or

"we are eating at the birthday person's choice because it is part of their celebration" or

"I am the adult in the situation and I don't need to explain my rule that took me 15 years to settle on because your undeveloped brain does not realize the danger"

all the child is hearing is

"I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU"

This type of continuous and repeated message is so damaging. Yes, there are times where you CAN'T go through the minutiae of why things are a certain way. Yes, there are times where kids (and young adults) are frustrating little mouths-sans-brains. But you love them. You care about them. And THAT should be the message we should always try to tell them. 

I get the respect thing. I get the no-eggshells-in-my-own-home thing. I get that some people are just tiring and built to push certain buttons. But saying 'I don't care' doesn't magically make them understand that they are being rude: it affirms their own feelings of no respect and eggshells-around-you.

If we want to be treated as civilized, equal adults with acceptable opinions and positions, we have to treat others the same way regardless of age. Telling someone to get out of our house if they disagree, or that we don't care about whatever issue is important to them, does not put us in that position.

[Wheres Toto]

But in this case the guy with the questionable past also vowed to pass policies that would have actual, real, adverse affects on people's actual, in-person lives.  

Were you just as blasé about creepy men when you were 16?  20?  35?  What age is the one where it's required to be at ease about being around creepy men?  

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, kand said:

I would guess then you don’t personally know anyone who was targeted in the aftermath of the 2016 election and truly didn’t feel physically safe here.  My Muslim friend was verbally harassed with her children in the target parking lot in the days after that election, after having never had that happen before under any previous administration.  I heard many other stories of that happening to other Muslims locally as well, in an area where never before had I heard of that happening.

Yeah, I've been trying not to open that can of worms, but I do NOT feel good about people going around chanting "Jews will not replace us," either, and about that apparently again being an acceptable kind of discourse. 

We lived in Austin for years and years until we moved to NYC. I am really glad we don't live there right now. I'm really sad to feel that way, too. 

[Lovely Bookishness]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

If that’s the case, then the answer is, let’s make sure we get you the therapy  appt. you asked for b/c I can see you’re struggling with some things and I’m not sure I can help. I’ve had a parent use the ‘there’s the door’ language before after a nasty divorce. I took up that challenge and never returned. My sister, likewise, flew three thousand miles to deliver her child and recover at my home vs. being with that parent. Actions have consequences. Our relationships are strained. Do you want to be right/righteous or happy?

I said it more fully below (answered them backwards, lol), but these were 2 separate kids and conversations.

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Maybe. I would find that an unhelpful and disorienting response if I said that, though. If you think it's emotional manipulation, you should "call the bluff" by ASKING the kid what they meant. Why don't they feel safe? What did I do to make you feel unsafe? And if you get bluster and nonsense as response, then maybe it's manipulation. Whereas if you get vulnerability and hurt feelings, it's something else. 

As I said in another thread (which got me castigated, by the way), I am not actually a very KIND person -- I'm a FAIR person. As a result, I don't put up with people's crap and I don't let them lie to me or manipulate me, at least as much as I can manage. That doesn't mean that it's right for me to dismiss their perspectives without hearing more about them. 

We don't know if she asked or not, or what the full extent of the conversation was, in the few comments she made here. All I'm trying to point out is she knows her kid. Sometimes saying, "Look, if you're genuinely that upset, you don't have to be here" is a valid response, and not a particularly unkind one.

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

The whole discussion, as I understand it, was that the child was feeling vulnerable after being accosted at work and was experiencing other kinds of upset/distress. The child was trying to get the OP to vote a certain way. In the context of that discussion, she said she didn't feel safe and OP said, well if you feel that way...there's the door.

No, these were 2 separate instances. One daughter had the issue at work and wanted therapy. OP seemed to feel that was an over the top response to the situation, and okay, I can see some gentle reframing from people who have had similar experiences and want to help her see that she may be missing something there. It was the other daughter who was pulling the "I don't feel safe" card after a political discussion that didn't go how she wanted it to.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Lovely Bookishness said:

We don't know if she asked or not, or what the full extent of the conversation was, in the few comments she made here. All I'm trying to point out is she knows her kid. Sometimes saying, "Look, if you're genuinely that upset, you don't have to be here" is a valid response, and not a particularly unkind one.

I don't see that, I'm sorry. I really can't imagine feeling good about an interaction like "But I pamper you and we watch your favorite movies! How could you not feel safe?" It feels dismissive of a person's feelings. 

I understand you feel otherwise, but I'm just reporting what I would feel. 

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

It was the other daughter who was pulling the "I don't feel safe" card after a political discussion that didn't go how she wanted it to.

Your language "pulling the card" is dismissive. I can well imagine a young person being deeply disturbed by what she views as an endorsement of qualities she considers morally reprehensible. Seeing that her parent does not hold values she considers essential  - like, for example, regarding all human lives as equally valuable and all humans endorsed with equal rights - can cause a person not to feel safe emotionally.
Let's say, my mother did not believe my immigrant or black or gay or disabled friends should be equally valued as able bodied straight white persons - how could I trust her with my authentic self? 
Yep, I get it. Being of a different generation, I might have used different language, but the sentiment would be the same.

Edited November 8, 2020 by regentrude

[Lovely Bookishness]

I understand that, I do, but I also know that it's entirely possible for a kid to manipulate a parent with their feelings. Telling a parent they don't feel safe in their home, especially after all this particular family has been through and all OP has done to protect this kid, especially if she tried to reason with her and still got that same rhetoric...yeah, I could totally see myself in the same situation saying, "If that's how you really feel, you don't have to stay here." I can also imagine having it said *to* me and then understanding that oh, wait a minute, maybe I'm carrying this too far. I mean, what was OP supposed to do? Agree with her kid to keep the peace? That's not healthy, either, and even less fair to everyone involved. And I hate to cast aspersions on folks I don't know, but it's entirely possible that OP's kid was using tactics learned from her dad to try to get her way. If that's the case, I feel OP was justified in shutting it down.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Lovely Bookishness said:

I mean, what was OP supposed to do? Agree with her kid to keep the peace? That's not healthy, either, and even less fair to everyone involved.

No. In that situation, I really recommend listening to where your kid is coming from and asking them why they don't feel safe. But I already said that upthread -- if they then came out with nonsense that made me feel like they were manipulating me, I'd feel a lot more judgmental than if they seemed genuinely upset and unhappy. 

[Lovely Bookishness]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Your language "pulling the card" is dismissive. I can well imagine a young person being deeply disturbed by what she views as an endorsement of qualities she considers morally reprehensible. Seeing that her parent does not hold values she considers essential  - like, for example, regarding all human lives as equally valuable and all humans endorsed with equal rights - can cause a person not to feel safe emotionally: if my mother does not believe my immigrant or black or gay or disabled friends should be equally valued, how can I trust her with my authentic self? 
Yep, I get it. Being of a different generation, I might have used different language, but the sentiment would be the same.

I'm not being dismissive. I'm stating how it appeared to me that the conversation went. I think it's ridiculous for a person, any person of any age, to vilify a family member and be hurtful because they won't agree about politics. We're all so quick to defend the kid, but my question is, what if the kid really was in the wrong here? It read as emotional manipulation to me, and in that case "pulling the card" is an apt description of the tactic to coerce agreement.

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

I said it more fully below (answered them backwards, lol), but these were 2 separate kids and conversations.

We don't know if she asked or not, or what the full extent of the conversation was, in the few comments she made here. All I'm trying to point out is she knows her kid. Sometimes saying, "Look, if you're genuinely that upset, you don't have to be here" is a valid response, and not a particularly unkind one.

No, these were 2 separate instances. One daughter had the issue at work and wanted therapy. OP seemed to feel that was an over the top response to the situation, and okay, I can see some gentle reframing from people who have had similar experiences and want to help her see that she may be missing something there. It was the other daughter who was pulling the "I don't feel safe" card after a political discussion that didn't go how she wanted it to.

Thanks. I didn’t understand that they were separate conversations with different children.

[Lovely Bookishness]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

No. In that situation, I really recommend listening to where your kid is coming from and asking them why they don't feel safe. But I already said that upthread -- if they then came out with nonsense that made me feel like they were manipulating me, I'd feel a lot more judgmental than if they seemed genuinely upset and unhappy. 

I chose to give OP the benefit of the doubt that this happened. It doesn't seem like anyone else did.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Lovely Bookishness said:

I think it's ridiculous for a person, any person of any age, to vilify a family member and be hurtful because they won't agree about politics.

Is politics simply out of bounds? I just don't see that. Political decisions can feel like moral ones to people. I understand that people may not AGREE on which choice is the moral one, but I don't understand why someone can't be upset about someone else's politics, IF they think they have a moral dimensions. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Lovely Bookishness said:

I chose to give OP the benefit of the doubt that this happened. It doesn't seem like anyone else did.

That may be because the language used to describe a significant workplace incident was VERY, VERY dismissive.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

I chose to give OP the benefit of the doubt that this happened. It doesn't seem like anyone else did.

It didn't sound like that in the post. I would assume that if that conversation happened, it would have been described. Instead, the description was 'but I pamper you and watch your favorite movies."