Organic Chemistry

[Lisa R.]

For those that were pursing medical school, PA school, vet school, dentistry, etc. what was the difficulty level of organic chemistry compared to the other upper level classes for those undergraduate degree? 

My daughter would like to go to PA school; her major is biomedical sciences. She just took organic chemistry I this summer. She said she understood all the information, studied really hard, and did well. Still, she feels a little discouraged as she is thinking all her classes going forward are going to be this difficult and require this much effort. She says she *can* do it, but she's now wondering if she wants to. I've told her to keep in mind she did the class online (this was her only option for the summer) and she did it without tutoring or any friend/classmate support as she was at home. 

Here's my question: Are organic chemistry I and II the hardest undergraduate classes for a pre-professional degree? Or are they are all the rest of those required classes really that hard? 

[katilac]

None of us pursued that type of degree, but anecdotally we have definitely heard time and again that organic chem is a beast. 

And I found this: Leah4sci.com says that "Organic chemistry is the most dreaded of all science classes. It has the highest failure rate, lowest class average and more retakes than any other science course. Yet most schools weigh organic chemistry about the same as general chemistry or physics." 

It goes on to describe why organic chem is so much more difficult. 

CollegeVine has this to say: "The notorious requirement for pre-meds is known for separating the future doctors from those who might not make the cut." 

Tell your dd to google "is organic chem hard" and she will feel much better, lol. 

[EKS]

6 hours ago, Lisa R. said:

Here's my question: Are organic chemistry I and II the hardest undergraduate classes for a pre-professional degree? Or are they are all the rest of those required classes really that hard?

I have a degree in biochemistry, but I don't know about the specific requirements for the degree you are talking about.

In general, in terms of the work required to internalize concepts/acquire knowledge well enough to get an A, the physical sciences are more difficult than the biological sciences which are more difficult than the social sciences which are more difficult than the humanities.  This is from my perspective as a person who was appropriately challenged in biochemistry courses (which in this list I would put between the physical and biological sciences).

There are gradations within each category as well.  IMO, quantum mechanics is more difficult than classical mechanics, physical chemistry is more difficult than organic chemistry, biochemistry is more difficult than animal behavior, math-intensive economics is more difficult than psychology, and the humanities are mostly just a joke (I can say this because I have a recent master's degree in the humanities).

FWIW, there is myth out there that organic chemistry requires a lot of memorization.  This is not true.  If you get good enough at it, you can just look at the structure of the molecules and know how they will behave when mixed together.  Unfortunately, it generally takes longer than a single term to internalize the "personalities" of the different functional groups to see this.

Edited August 16, 2020 by EKS

[Frances]

On 8/16/2020 at 7:46 AM, Lisa R. said:

For those that were pursing medical school, PA school, vet school, dentistry, etc. what was the difficulty level of organic chemistry compared to the other upper level classes for those undergraduate degree? 

My daughter would like to go to PA school; her major is biomedical sciences. She just took organic chemistry I this summer. She said she understood all the information, studied really hard, and did well. Still, she feels a little discouraged as she is thinking all her classes going forward are going to be this difficult and require this much effort. She says she *can* do it, but she's now wondering if she wants to. I've told her to keep in mind she did the class online (this was her only option for the summer) and she did it without tutoring or any friend/classmate support as she was at home. 

Here's my question: Are organic chemistry I and II the hardest undergraduate classes for a pre-professional degree? Or are they are all the rest of those required classes really that hard? 

Nm

Edited August 20, 2020 by Frances

[Dicentra]

On 8/16/2020 at 9:46 AM, Lisa R. said:

For those that were pursing medical school, PA school, vet school, dentistry, etc. what was the difficulty level of organic chemistry compared to the other upper level classes for those undergraduate degree? 

My daughter would like to go to PA school; her major is biomedical sciences. She just took organic chemistry I this summer. She said she understood all the information, studied really hard, and did well. Still, she feels a little discouraged as she is thinking all her classes going forward are going to be this difficult and require this much effort. She says she *can* do it, but she's now wondering if she wants to. I've told her to keep in mind she did the class online (this was her only option for the summer) and she did it without tutoring or any friend/classmate support as she was at home. 

Here's my question: Are organic chemistry I and II the hardest undergraduate classes for a pre-professional degree? Or are they are all the rest of those required classes really that hard? 

My degree is in organic chemistry. 🙂  It's... uniquely challenging.  Students who are strong mathematically run into a wall because it isn't an intuitive type of course and students who are strong in the biological science run into a wall because (probably) they've been led to believe that OChem is mostly memorization (which they're probably good at) - but it isn't.  It's that bizarre combination of being detailed oriented (similar to biological sciences) with also leaning heavily on logical and deductive/inductive types of thinking (similar to physical sciences).

OChem I and II are usually the "weeding" courses in undergrad.  I know - it's a terrible, disheartening term.  Basically, grad programs/professional programs want to see if students can make it through something as challenging as OChem I/II.  Tell your daughter that even I found the first courses in OChem challenging - the upper level courses in OChem were much less so. 🙂  I agree with EKS - OChem gets easier the longer you keep at it.

In terms of whether the rest of the required classes will be of equal difficulty, some of that depends on what the other classes will be and what school she's at.  It's probably likely, though, that since OChem I/II are "weeding" courses almost everywhere, they would be some of the most difficult courses she would run across in her undergrad - particularly since she did them at home and online by herself!  Tell her to hang in there - she can do it!  If she still has to take OChem II and if she doesn't already have Organic Chemistry as a Second Language I and II that she should definitely invest in the books:

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Second-Language-Semester/dp/111949348X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=26AG5VPU035DY&dchild=1&keywords=organic+chemistry+as+a+second+language&qid=1597731355&sprefix=organic+chemistry+%2Caps%2C315&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Second-Language-Semester/dp/1119493919/ref=sr_1_3?crid=26AG5VPU035DY&dchild=1&keywords=organic+chemistry+as+a+second+language&qid=1597731355&sprefix=organic+chemistry+%2Caps%2C315&sr=8-3

Also tell her to make sure that she has a molecular model kit like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Model-Pieces-Instructional/dp/B01NCU854K/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=molecular+model+kit&qid=1597731458&sr=8-5

When in doubt, BUILD! 🙂  Build models of everything - it's easier to "see" what's going on.

Oh - the best help I can give any beginning OChem student...  Positive attracts negative and vice versa. 🙂 Once she learns to figure out what is positive (an electrophile) and what is negative (a nucleophile), then figuring out mechanisms becomes much easier.  I know - this probably sounds like Greek to you.  Just tell her - she'll understand. 🙂

Best of luck to her!

[MamaSprout]

Organic Chemistry as a summer course is a higher level of crazy, too. The students who took it last summer at the uni where I work spent hours a day in the library.

[Alice]

19 hours ago, Dicentra said:

My degree is in organic chemistry. 🙂  It's... uniquely challenging.  Students who are strong mathematically run into a wall because it isn't an intuitive type of course and students who are strong in the biological science run into a wall because (probably) they've been led to believe that OChem is mostly memorization (which they're probably good at) - but it isn't.  It's that bizarre combination of being detailed oriented (similar to biological sciences) with also leaning heavily on logical and deductive/inductive types of thinking (similar to physical sciences).

 

 

Oh my goodness, this explains so much! I LOVED Organic Chemistry, it was one of my favorite classes. It was hard but it just made so much sense to me. I actually got asked to tutor someone a year or two later and I was a terrible tutor for her because I couldn’t figure out why she couldn’t “see” the reactions that just seemed so obvious. (Don’t worry, I realized how bad I was and got her a new tutor quickly.) I actually also took it in the summer which I kind of loved...I basically spent 8 hours a day doing Chemistry and it was fantastic. 

I was a Bio/Chem double major (my school didn’t have Biochem as a major but that would have been what I did if we had it). I also went to med school. For me, Physics and P. Chem were the really challenging classes. Biology classes weren’t hard as I’m very good at memorizing but I didn’t find them fun. Med school (and I would guess PA school) are much more like Biology...it’s a ton of memorization.

Also, for med school in general, I often hear people say they aren’t sure if they want to go to school that long or if they want to put in that much work. And it is a lot of work and people should be sure they really want to do it. On the other hand, it’s not really like undergraduate work. The first few years is a lot of book learning and memorization but if you are interested in medicine it’s all really cool stuff that you are excited to learn. Then you get to the more hands-on clinical years and those are also a lot of work but even though it’s very intense and hard, it’s very exciting. Basically, yes, there will be classes as hard as O. Chem. But it will probably be way more fun than taking a really tough class online and alone. 🙂

 

[Serenade]

19 hours ago, Dicentra said:

My degree is in organic chemistry. 🙂  It's... uniquely challenging.  Students who are strong mathematically run into a wall because it isn't an intuitive type of course and students who are strong in the biological science run into a wall because (probably) they've been led to believe that OChem is mostly memorization (which they're probably good at) - but it isn't.  It's that bizarre combination of being detailed oriented (similar to biological sciences) with also leaning heavily on logical and deductive/inductive types of thinking (similar to physical sciences).

OChem I and II are usually the "weeding" courses in undergrad.  I know - it's a terrible, disheartening term.  Basically, grad programs/professional programs want to see if students can make it through something as challenging as OChem I/II.  Tell your daughter that even I found the first courses in OChem challenging - the upper level courses in OChem were much less so. 🙂  I agree with EKS - OChem gets easier the longer you keep at it.

In terms of whether the rest of the required classes will be of equal difficulty, some of that depends on what the other classes will be and what school she's at.  It's probably likely, though, that since OChem I/II are "weeding" courses almost everywhere, they would be some of the most difficult courses she would run across in her undergrad - particularly since she did them at home and online by herself!  Tell her to hang in there - she can do it!  If she still has to take OChem II and if she doesn't already have Organic Chemistry as a Second Language I and II that she should definitely invest in the books:

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Second-Language-Semester/dp/111949348X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=26AG5VPU035DY&dchild=1&keywords=organic+chemistry+as+a+second+language&qid=1597731355&sprefix=organic+chemistry+%2Caps%2C315&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Second-Language-Semester/dp/1119493919/ref=sr_1_3?crid=26AG5VPU035DY&dchild=1&keywords=organic+chemistry+as+a+second+language&qid=1597731355&sprefix=organic+chemistry+%2Caps%2C315&sr=8-3

Also tell her to make sure that she has a molecular model kit like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Model-Pieces-Instructional/dp/B01NCU854K/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=molecular+model+kit&qid=1597731458&sr=8-5

When in doubt, BUILD! 🙂  Build models of everything - it's easier to "see" what's going on.

Oh - the best help I can give any beginning OChem student...  Positive attracts negative and vice versa. 🙂 Once she learns to figure out what is positive (an electrophile) and what is negative (a nucleophile), then figuring out mechanisms becomes much easier.  I know - this probably sounds like Greek to you.  Just tell her - she'll understand. 🙂

Best of luck to her!

Ugh.  My son had his first organic chem lab tonight, and he called and said he doesn't think he can do it, and he wants to come home. 😥  It doesn't help that he's also taking physics, genetics and a scientific research class.  He's a junior transfer and he is seriously overwhelmed.   I will pass on to him what you said above. He's a biology major who doesn't plan to go into any health fields, but organic chem is required for general biology majors.  He loves biology, but chem, not so much.  

[Reefgazer]

On 8/18/2020 at 2:25 AM, Dicentra said:

My degree is in organic chemistry. 🙂  It's... uniquely challenging.  Students who are strong mathematically run into a wall because it isn't an intuitive type of course and students who are strong in the biological science run into a wall because (probably) they've been led to believe that OChem is mostly memorization (which they're probably good at) - but it isn't.  It's that bizarre combination of being detailed oriented (similar to biological sciences) with also leaning heavily on logical and deductive/inductive types of thinking (similar to physical sciences).

OChem I and II are usually the "weeding" courses in undergrad.  I know - it's a terrible, disheartening term.  Basically, grad programs/professional programs want to see if students can make it through something as challenging as OChem I/II.  Tell your daughter that even I found the first courses in OChem challenging - the upper level courses in OChem were much less so. 🙂  I agree with EKS - OChem gets easier the longer you keep at it.

In terms of whether the rest of the required classes will be of equal difficulty, some of that depends on what the other classes will be and what school she's at.  It's probably likely, though, that since OChem I/II are "weeding" courses almost everywhere, they would be some of the most difficult courses she would run across in her undergrad - particularly since she did them at home and online by herself!  Tell her to hang in there - she can do it!  If she still has to take OChem II and if she doesn't already have Organic Chemistry as a Second Language I and II that she should definitely invest in the books:

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Second-Language-Semester/dp/111949348X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=26AG5VPU035DY&dchild=1&keywords=organic+chemistry+as+a+second+language&qid=1597731355&sprefix=organic+chemistry+%2Caps%2C315&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Second-Language-Semester/dp/1119493919/ref=sr_1_3?crid=26AG5VPU035DY&dchild=1&keywords=organic+chemistry+as+a+second+language&qid=1597731355&sprefix=organic+chemistry+%2Caps%2C315&sr=8-3

Also tell her to make sure that she has a molecular model kit like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Model-Pieces-Instructional/dp/B01NCU854K/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=molecular+model+kit&qid=1597731458&sr=8-5

When in doubt, BUILD! 🙂  Build models of everything - it's easier to "see" what's going on.

Oh - the best help I can give any beginning OChem student...  Positive attracts negative and vice versa. 🙂 Once she learns to figure out what is positive (an electrophile) and what is negative (a nucleophile), then figuring out mechanisms becomes much easier.  I know - this probably sounds like Greek to you.  Just tell her - she'll understand. 🙂

Best of luck to her!

All of this.  I found organic chem the most challenging course I took in my biology/chemistry major.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Reefgazer

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

On 8/18/2020 at 9:43 PM, Serenade said:

Ugh.  My son had his first organic chem lab tonight, and he called and said he doesn't think he can do it, and he wants to come home. 😥  It doesn't help that he's also taking physics, genetics and a scientific research class.  He's a junior transfer and he is seriously overwhelmed.   I will pass on to him what you said above. He's a biology major who doesn't plan to go into any health fields, but organic chem is required for general biology majors.  He loves biology, but chem, not so much.  

These were the same classes that I took the first semester of my sophomore year as a biochemistry major (though the research was just doing organic chemistry research with a professor 6+ hours a week).  I spent a lot of time studying, but it was doable.  It was definitely my hardest year in college!

[Serenade]

On 8/30/2020 at 3:41 PM, Lisa in the UP of MI said:

These were the same classes that I took the first semester of my sophomore year as a biochemistry major (though the research was just doing organic chemistry research with a professor 6+ hours a week).  I spent a lot of time studying, but it was doable.  It was definitely my hardest year in college!

So far, I think he is actually liking his classes.  What he has the hardest time doing is actually keeping up with all the assignments for all the classes.  Having labs just about doubles the number of teachers he has assignments from, since the labs are all separate classes from the lectures.  So far, he is even understanding organic chem.  I told him not to get too comfortable because it's gonna get harder!