Funding Graduate School

[Matryoshka]

We'd always told my kids that we'd get them out of undergrad debt-free (they go to in-state public U's), but that they were on their own for grad school, if they wanted to do it.  All three are in college at the same time.  Two are not planning on any grad school and have chosen practical undergrad degrees that won't need that.  The third is just finishing up a degree in Linguistics/Anthropology with a minor in Philosophy, and will need either a graduate degree or some other more practical training.  She will need solid health insurance after turning 26 (4 more years), as she has some chronic health conditions.  She applied to three grad programs, and as an alternate plan, was thinking of going back and doing an Associate's in Physical Therapy.  The idea was that if she got into grad program that was fully funded, she'd do that.  If not, we did say we'd help if she went back to do the PT thing, which in some ways seems more practical - it seems no matter how many years you study, academia is only offering part-time, no-benefits adjunct positions.   That is not compatible with her need for solid health care. Working at a museum is another option, but also seems like pay/benefits there would be an issue, if she even found a job.  Being a PT Assistant seems to pay better and more likely to have benefits.  Irony.  (She has a real talent and passion for PT, developed through all of the PT sessions she's had to have because of her own health.  She's not at all interested in being a full PT at this point, as it would involve starting over undergrad pretty much from scratch as she has none of the pre-reqs and going to school another 8-10 years for the PhD they expect full PTs to have these days...)

So, she just got in to her preferred grad program, which is at a different in-state public, and she got 50% tuition plus a stipend which is about equal to the other half.  I don't think we should offer to pay outright, as that was never the deal, and doesn't seem fair to the other two kids, but I have a feeling she will balk at taking loans.  Her share of the tuition looks like it will only be about $20K for the two year Master's program.  I still think that's pretty good.  What kinds of student loans are there for grad school?  Is the whole FAFSA thing still in play - do they still expect parental income to come into it?  Do the loans that don't have to be paid back till after school ends still exist - and the whole subsidized/unsubsidized thing?  I think we could be willing to co-sign something that was relatively low-interest, or offer her a no-interest loan from us?  What are the options for funding grad school - I'm really only familiar with the undergrad thing.

I feel like getting into even a partially funded program like this is really only available directly from undergrad.  She could always go back and do the PT Associate's later if she wanted to.

[maize]

All graduate students are considered independent, but only unsubsidized loans are available:

https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized#how-much

[Lori D.]

Once the student turns 24yo, or is working toward a graduate degree, the student is considered independent and the parents' info does not come into play on the FAFSA. However, as far as Federal financial aid goes... I believe that once a student has an undergrad degree, the student is no longer eligible for Pell Grants -- just Federal student loans. And they tend to be the unsubsidized loans (so, accruing interest from the money you accept them).

Can she apply for a paid fellowship or assistantship position to help towards costs? There are research-based (RA) and teaching-based (TA) positions. Or, what about a GRA (Graduate Residence Assistant) in overseeing a Dorm -- that should provide free housing at least.

Also, does the school allow "stacking" of scholarships? Because many schools don't allow stacking -- it's "either" their aid, or they reduce their aid amount by the amount of the "outside" scholarships. If stacking is allowed, try searching at Scholarships.com, which lists scholarships by type; here is the page for different types of graduate scholarships. Also, Sallie Mae has a graduate scholarship search engine -- registering is free, and automatically enters you into a drawing for $1000 -- but it also puts you on their email lists and I wouldn't be surprised if they sell their lists, so you may end up with a lot of "spam" and no scholarships...

As far as the PT Asst. Associate's... for paying for it, she might look into a work tuition reimbursement program, which is working for a PT office or at a hospital during the time of earning the degree AND for a certain amount of time (usually 1-4 years) after earning the degree, in exchange for the office or hospital investing in your

She might also check out becoming an Occupational Therapy Asst, which is a related field to PT, and it pays about $10,000 more per year than PT Asst.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Lori D.

[plansrme]

I don't have anything useful to add to the financing question, but if she is interested in PT school, PT programs are only three years, typically.  She could take a couple of semesters to get her science prereqs, and they could be from anywhere, and only spend four more years in school.  I don't see how it could be 8-10.  She also might want to consider OT school, which is only 2 years and has fewer prereqs.

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, plansrme said:

I don't have anything useful to add to the financing question, but if she is interested in PT school, PT programs are only three years, typically.  She could take a couple of semesters to get her science prereqs, and they could be from anywhere, and only spend four more years in school...

Yes, the Bachelor degree in PT program itself is usually on a continuous 36-month schedule, so a degree in 3 years (plus any semesters needed in advance for the Sciences). However, you also need a Masters (2 years) + PhD (3 years**) to work as a PT, so that's another 5  years on top of the 3 years for the Bachelor degree -- so at least 8 years (and more if needing predatory sciences or coursework), to go from "zero to employability" as a PT. 😫

** = from this article on Physical Therapy Careers: "All individuals must earn a doctoral degree in physical therapy (DPT) in order to practice as a physical therapist... DPT programs typically last at least three years."

[plansrme]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

Yes, the Bachelor degree in PT program itself is usually on a continuous 36-month schedule, so a degree in 3 years (plus any semesters needed in advance for the Sciences). However, you also need a Masters (2 years) + PhD (3 years**) to work as a PT, so that's another 5  years on top of the 3 years for the Bachelor degree -- so at least 8 years (and more if needing predatory sciences or coursework), to go from "zero to employability" as a PT. 😫

** = from this article on Physical Therapy Careers: "All individuals must earn a doctoral degree in physical therapy (DPT) in order to practice as a physical therapist... DPT programs typically last at least three years."

A  PT degree, a DPT is ONLY 3 years, not a two-year master's PLUS three years of PT school.  There are no undergraduate degrees in PT any more, and a master's is not required for a DPT.  I don't think there are even master's programs in PT any more.  There used to be, until the PT regulators (who are PTs themselves) persuaded everyone to require a three-year degree for licensing.

https://www.ptprogress.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-become-a-physical-therapist/

[Lawyer&Mom]

With her degree in Linguistics/Anthropology/Philosophy it seems like she enjoys the written word.  How about paralegal?  The associates degree programs are relatively short and can be affordable depending on the cost of the community college.  Definitely cheaper than law school, and the jobs can be good.  I have a friend from undergrad who is very happy as a paralegal.

[catz]

So she can get through grad school with potentially about 20k in debt and she has no other debt?   If there is a reasonable career path for her that direction, I think that level of debt is totally fine.  No, your income does not count on the FAFSA anymore.  I would consider that a very reasonable level of educational debt to get though undergrad and grad school.  
 

[elegantlion]

Yes, graduate student loans are unsubsidized and at higher interest rates than undergraduate loans. 

[Matryoshka]

5 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

So she can get through grad school with potentially about 20k in debt and she has no other debt?   If there is a reasonable career path for her that direction, I think that level of debt is totally fine.  No, your income does not count on the FAFSA anymore.  I would consider that a very reasonable level of educational debt to get though undergrad and grad school.  
 

Yes, this is correct, and I was also thinking that was a reasonable level of debt, but she has a lot of anxiety, and especially if the rates on grad loans are high, I'm wondering if a loan from mom & dad would be less stressful, as we wouldn't charge her interest.  If she'd agree to that...

On 2/26/2020 at 12:07 PM, Lori D. said:

Once the student turns 24yo, or is working toward a graduate degree, the student is considered independent and the parents' info does not come into play on the FAFSA. However, as far as Federal financial aid goes... I believe that once a student has an undergrad degree, the student is no longer eligible for Pell Grants -- just Federal student loans. And they tend to be the unsubsidized loans (so, accruing interest from the money you accept them).

Can she apply for a paid fellowship or assistantship position to help towards costs? There are research-based (RA) and teaching-based (TA) positions. Or, what about a GRA (Graduate Residence Assistant) in overseeing a Dorm -- that should provide free housing at least.

Also, does the school allow "stacking" of scholarships? Because many schools don't allow stacking -- it's "either" their aid, or they reduce their aid amount by the amount of the "outside" scholarships. If stacking is allowed, try searching at Scholarships.com, which lists scholarships by type; here is the page for different types of graduate scholarships. Also, Sallie Mae has a graduate scholarship search engine -- registering is free, and automatically enters you into a drawing for $1000 -- but it also puts you on their email lists and I wouldn't be surprised if they sell their lists, so you may end up with a lot of "spam" and no scholarships...

As far as the PT Asst. Associate's... for paying for it, she might look into a work tuition reimbursement program, which is working for a PT office or at a hospital during the time of earning the degree AND for a certain amount of time (usually 1-4 years) after earning the degree, in exchange for the office or hospital investing in your

She might also check out becoming an Occupational Therapy Asst, which is a related field to PT, and it pays about $10,000 more per year than PT Asst.

Thanks for all of this info!  I need to figure out more info about what the stipend is about - I'm not sure if it's just meant as money to live on, or if it comes with some kind of work to do, such as TA or something.  Unfortunately, I don't think an RA position would work - tried that for a semester as an undergrad, and found it far to stressful.  Stress really exacerbates all her health conditions.  She's now working an admin job helping setting up conferences at the university's conference center, and that's been a much better fit to earn money.   She also has gotten a $2K grant to do research on one of her linguistics projects.   Hopefully she'll be able to continue to do some kind of work and get some kinds of grants for that kind of thing in grad school as well.

In spite of the extra $ potential, I don't think OT would be of any interest.  What she really likes about the PT is the targeted exercises as well as manipulation - she has EDS, which causes frequent subluxations of all kinds of things, and she has a specialized PT who puts her back together, and she's learned to do many of those. One of her PTs also knows cranial-sacro therapy, which she's found helpful.  The tendency to sublux also means that OT type things that would require transporting and lifting would not be not really workable with her physical limitations.

20 hours ago, plansrme said:

A  PT degree, a DPT is ONLY 3 years, not a two-year master's PLUS three years of PT school.  There are no undergraduate degrees in PT any more, and a master's is not required for a DPT.  I don't think there are even master's programs in PT any more.  There used to be, until the PT regulators (who are PTs themselves) persuaded everyone to require a three-year degree for licensing.

https://www.ptprogress.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-become-a-physical-therapist/

Thanks, this is helpful info.  I also thought that it was a master's and then 3 more years.  Also good to know that there's no specific undergrad PT degree, but I have a feeling there are lots of pre-req classes for the grad program, like for med school, of which I'm guessing she has exactly zero.  I still think if she goes this route, it's best to start with the Assoc's, as that might well give her some of the pre-reqs for the DPT that she doesn't have at a lower cost.  I'm still not sure if a full DPT would be for her - she's a bit math-phobic and I'm guessing she'd have to take Calc and lots of Chemistry, even though it's fairly irrelevant to the work. Someone correct me if I'm way off base.  But if she ended up loving PT and wanting to go farther, it's probably still a good idea to get the Assoc, work a few years, and see from there. 

20 hours ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

With her degree in Linguistics/Anthropology/Philosophy it seems like she enjoys the written word.  How about paralegal?  The associates degree programs are relatively short and can be affordable depending on the cost of the community college.  Definitely cheaper than law school, and the jobs can be good.  I have a friend from undergrad who is very happy as a paralegal.

She does love the written word, but I don't think she'd want to do paralegal.  She wanted to be an archaeologist at first, but all the physical limitations got in the way.  I think her current thinking if she stays on the academic path would be to do Native American language reclamation, and/or work in museums collections.  I wish she would figure out how to get a teaching license along with a master's, as I feel that would be another fall-back position, but she's not excited about that idea, even though she does love to teach - but she says she doesn't ever want to teach in a high school.  Museum education would be another thing she'd like to do.   Or be a professor, but no one is hiring full-time humanities professors.

[Frances]

She likely wouldn’t need Calc for PT, just statistics and the math necessary for non-Calc physics. And usually one year of general chem with lab. Generally, less chemistry and more anatomy and physiology than premed.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

She likely wouldn’t need Calc for PT, just statistics and the math necessary for non-Calc physics. And usually one year of general chem with lab. Generally, less chemistry and more anatomy and physiology than premed.

She's already taken stats and non-calc Physics (1 semester, anyway) at the college level, but no chem since high school... she got a 3 on AP Bio, but she mostly self-studied.

But what courses are they taking for three full years then?  How many anatomy courses are there?

Edited February 28, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

She's already taken stats and non-calc Physics (1 semester, anyway) at the college level, but no chem since high school... she got a 3 on AP Bio, but she mostly self-studied.

But what courses are they taking for three full years then?  How many anatomy courses are there?

I was referring to the undergrad prerequisites. Here’s a link to one program which provides info about both the undergrad prerequisites and the actual doctorate curriculum.

https://www.pacificu.edu/physical-therapy/admissions

And a more general link about education and PT careers.

https://www.apta.org/AboutCareers/

 

 

[Storygirl]

DD18 will be starting college in the fall to study exercise science in the pre-physical therapy track. The highest math required in her program is precalculus. She will need to take one year of biology, one year of chemistry, and one year of physics. Also a year of anatomy and physiology. There are many additional related exercise classes for her degree. The pre-physical therapy track at her school requires the most science. Occupational therapy, for example, only requires one semester of each of those science classes.

We encouraged DD to look at a two year PTA program instead, but she wants a four year degree. She will then need to get accepted to a doctoral program (no guarantee of this -- competition seems to be fierce), which will be another three years.

You can probably search for information online for PT doctoral programs to see what their prerequisites are; they may vary by school, but there will be a lot of undergraduate science required for any school.

Since she has had a lot of PT herself, she may have thought this through, but does she have the physical stamina for the job? My kids have had both OT and PT, and my impression has not been that OT is the more physical career, which you seem to suggest. One of the reasons DD18 wants to be a PT is because she is athletic and wants to move a lot in her job.

A two-year PTA degree would definitely get your daughter through the degree and working faster, which is a plus. And it's much, much cheaper. But the job opportunities and salary potential are much more limited over the long term.

I kind of agree that your daughter might want to look at being a paralegal. I was an English major and didn't want to go to law school. If paralegal had been a job on my radar, I might have found it a good fit. I'm thinking it may be a better fit for your daughter, because it will be mostly desk work (I would guess), which is what she seems to be flourishing with right now.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Storygirl