What does it mean to be educated?

[lewelma]

I saw this mentioned on an archived thread. Over time my thinking on this has changed from traditional to non-traditional, but I am struggling to put my changing thoughts down in writing.  I'm in planning mode for 11th grade for my younger, and I'd like to make a list of goals and link them to my beliefs on what it means to be an educated person.  I'm not looking for minimum standards; rather I'd like to discuss realistic but high-end goals. Thoughts?

[daijobu]

When your spouse reads with exasperation at some article reporting that a statistic has declined by 300%, and you share his frustration.  (This just happened a couple of days ago.)

 

[lewelma]

Haha.  But I'm actually looking for a bit more cohesion to help me make a plan.  🙂 

My problem is that my traditional thoughts lead me to thinking an educated person has breadth of knowledge in history and science, has read the classics, and worked through the traditional math sequence.  I'm not too fussed on foreign language or arts/music, but clearly a bit of that makes someone a fuller person. I read the WTM and think, yup, if I can do all this with my kids, then they will be well educated. Systematic exposure with focus on basic skills is the way to go, because it leads to a firm foundation upon which to build higher level thinking.

But then my non-traditional side rears its head and says, nope. Traditional silo-ed subjects lead to people who don't think deeply in complex ways.  That top-down teaching of set content leads to students who can only learn what they are told.  So I conflate content with pedagogy. But then I think that content is not education especially given it is almost always forgotten, especially high school 4x4x4x4 content. I start to think that thinking skills are what is key because they last, and content is only a support.  I think that there is no longer some set content that defines you as educated because there is just so much content to cover that it is an impossible ask, and that we can just look up what we don't know. That analysis, synthesis, extrapolation, and evaluation are what makes an educated person.

The problem is that both content and skills seem to be the goal, but then you can do nothing well. 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

15 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Haha.  But I'm actually looking for a bit more cohesion to help me make a plan.  🙂 

My problem is that my traditional thoughts lead me to thinking an educated person has breadth of knowledge in history and science, has read the classics, and worked through the traditional math sequence.  I'm not too fussed on foreign language or arts/music, but clearly a bit of that makes someone a fuller person. I read the WTM and think, yup, if I can do all this with my kids, then they will be well educated. Systematic exposure with focus on basic skills is the way to go, because it leads to a firm foundation upon which to build higher level thinking.

But then my non-traditional side rears its head and says, nope. Traditional silo-ed subjects lead to people who don't think deeply in complex ways.  That top-down teaching of set content leads to students who can only learn what they are told.  So I conflate content with pedagogy. But then I think that content is not education especially given it is almost always forgotten, especially high school 4x4x4x4 content. I start to think that thinking skills are what is key because they last, and content is only a support.  I think that there is no longer some set content that defines you as educated because there is just so much content to cover that it is an impossible ask, and that we can just look up what we don't know. That analysis, synthesis, extrapolation, and evaluation are what makes an educated person.

The problem is that both content and skills seem to be the goal, but then you can do nothing well. 

I dont think you can do the bolded without knowledge. There is a reason Bloom's pyramid has knowledge as its base. It takes knowledge to be able to understand and understanding to analyze, etc, and on up the pyramid. 

Maybe this article?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/07/31/what-does-it-mean-to-be-educated/

 

[Xahm]

I'm not going to attempt a complete answer to this question, but I think it would need to include the idea that no one can know everything with any depth, but that everyone ought to have an area or two they have mastered with some depth. I hope to help my kids attain a broad overview of the knowledge that is out there, enough to have a good idea that there's a lot they don't know and to be able to identify when something is way off base. In addition, I plan for them to have the skills to learn more about a topic when it becomes necessary or interesting to them. They also need an area or two in which they have gone in depth, and hopefully this area aligns with future career goals.

Two people who are both well educated might have very different knowledge bases, but they should be able to have a fascinating conversation with one another.

[lewelma]

Argh, it's behind an ad-blocker wall, 8. 

I hear you about the content at the base, but I'm doing some soul searching about subjects like Physics and Economics.  My ds went through mechanics, studied the content, completed the work, got As on the tests, and then told me at the end of it all "I don't even know what force is." He went through the text and appeared to me to be learning the content, but he wasn't connecting to it in any way.  This boy needs to engage in deep meaningful ways in order to engage at all. And if we do that, we simply won't have time for the content.  We have already taken this approach with waves in physics by studying them through the 2004 Indian ocean tsunami and how it reflected, refracted, diffracted, and interfered, all learned in context of the geographic location of the land masses and the depth of the water at the continental shelves. This even got us into fluid dynamics. Complex stuff, but with little content. 

Another example is Economics.  My ds needs it for his geography papers.  But he is learning it in a need-to-know manner.  So he has just spent 30+ hours on deeply understanding GDP, GDP PPP, and GDP PPP per person. How they are calculated, what are the assumptions, where are they faulty, where are specific examples like Quatar actually hiding reality. 30+ hours on this one topic with a 5 page single spaced paper at the end of it. This is not really Economics, not in any sort of traditional sense for high school.  He has a very high level understanding of a very small content area.

So when I think about being 'educated' and I think about content, I wonder how much content is really needed.  Perhaps this is a breadth vs depth quandary. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Sorry, I'm out of likes. Please consider all your responses liked!! 🙂 

[8filltheheart]

Not sure why Forbes would be blocked. ??? It might be worth changing your settings to read it bc he touches on some of what you are thinking. Here are 3 blurbs.

"to give a short answer): a demonstrated ability to listen carefully, to think critically, to evaluate facts rigorously, to reason analytically, to imagine creatively, to articulate interesting questions, to explore alternative viewpoints, to maintain intellectual curiosity and to speak and write persuasively. If we add to that a reasonable familiarity with the treasures of history, literature, theater, music, dance and art that previous civilizations have delivered, we are getting to close to the meaning of educated."

"Alfie Kohn continues: Rather than attempting to define what it means to be well-educated, should we instead be asking about the purposes of education?"

"To be well-educated, then, is to have the desire as well as the means to make sure that learning never ends."

[lewelma]

10 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

"to give a short answer): a demonstrated ability to listen carefully, to think critically, to evaluate facts rigorously, to reason analytically, to imagine creatively, to articulate interesting questions, to explore alternative viewpoints, to maintain intellectual curiosity and to speak and write persuasively. If we add to that a reasonable familiarity with the treasures of history, literature, theater, music, dance and art that previous civilizations have delivered, we are getting to close to the meaning of educated."

Well, I have the skills covered.  🙂  I'm going to think about the treasures of previous civilizations. Good idea for a dinner conversation tonight with both boys. However, I do notice a lack of science in that list of content. 

Quote

Rather than attempting to define what it means to be well-educated, should we instead be asking about the purposes of education?"

So what is the purpose of education?

Edited December 31, 2019 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

10 hours ago, lewelma said:

So what is the purpose of education?

I think you are going to have to turn to yourself for the answer to that question.  Books have been written b/c is no consensus "answer."  One of the beauties of homeschooling is that we get to answer it ourselves.  One of the gifts of being free is being allowed to educate our children and deciding the answer, not the state.  There are POV that would take away that freedom and enforce their own worldview as the only acceptable form of education b/c determining worldview and controlling how individuals think/act/believe is their purpose.

This conversation circles back to the core of thread after thread you have started--knowing your philosophy and  the purpose behind what you are doing, not just in educating but also in parenting bc homeschoolers have to acknowledge that the 2 are completely intertwined, not just in our daily interactions but also in every educational decision we make b/c we have taken on defining education.  If you don't have a philosophy and a defining purpose, it will be defined for you by whatever curriculum (or lack thereof) that you use.  Either you define it and control it or a provider, curriculum writer, or nothing will define it and that void becomes the controlling factor.  Unfortunately, some people flail through life without any definition of self, purpose, reason for life, no self-worth, lack of values......Voids control and ultimately do create their own definitions.

FWIW, I think you do have your own philosophy and definitions. You do know what you are doing.  Sometimes it just takes acknowledging that we are assuming that responsibility to take the "bull by the horns" so to speak.  No one has all of the answers (especially not gov'ts!!)  But recognizing that you are doing what you are doing for specific reasons and articulating your reasons with your children will go a long way in formulating a clearer view.

Edited December 31, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[annegables]

This might be getting off topic, but there is also a difference in "having been educated" and "educated". And we often conflate schooling with education. Let's take someone who has been out of formal schooling for 20 years. If they had a wonderful education full of great literature, comprehensive science, thorough history, etc, then they were educated well. But one can only rest on the laurels of past glory for so long. If there is no effort to continue reading, learning, discussing, and thinking deeply, then it is easy to get to 40yo and no longer be truly educated. I know people like this. There was much potential there, but their current education and conversations consist of soundbites from the news, romance novels, and pop culture. 

One of the hidden blessings for me in homeschooling was it gave a purpose to my continuing education. Prior, I read loads of nonfiction on a variety of topics, but there was little continuity or use to what I was learning. I love that now I am learning a ton and it has a direct use. This knowledge is making me a better person. Not only am I learning content like history and literature that I missed the first time around, but I am learning skills such as teaching phonics or writing. It is enormously gratifying and empowering.

Edited December 31, 2019 by annegables
added more info

[beaners]

From my point of view there are a few main requirements to be educated. There is a lot of overlap between the categories. These are also our main goals in our family. 

It is knowing enough about the world beyond your life that you are able to look outside of yourself. Languages, history and science jump into this category.

In addition it is having the knowledge and ability to look inside yourself, to be able to act rightly and be a positive influence in that world. Ethics, religion, and also things that fall outside of the traditional school scope like personal mental health work fall here.

You should be able to recognize beauty and wonder in the world. Math, the arts, science all fit here for me.

You should have the ability to provide for yourself and others. Practical life skills, basic home and auto needs, financial education, career training if your passion is not also your job, and a responsible attitude toward work.

If there is a general cultural body of knowledge I feel like that should be included. That influences what we focus on within those categories. Why is geometry "required" but advanced number theory is optional and extra? Why do we read enduring and influential literature rather than writing from an obscure and unrecognized author?

[Little Green Leaves]

I love these questions. 

I think the opposite of education is superstition. Someone who is NOT educated is ruled by irrational fears, has a clannish mentality, and can be easily led. Someone who is well educated has the ability to gather and weigh information; they also  have the ability to communicate their point of view to others. An education should be broadening, not limiting -- it should equip you to speak to people from different backgrounds than yours. That's why foreign language is important (because learning one foreign language teaches you that languages work differently); it's why history and literature and art and music are important. Science too; I may not remember much physics, but it gave me another way to look at the world.

That said, you're planning for 11th grade, and by that stage education is probably going to look really different for different people. An 11th grader is ready to specialize and make decisions on their own about what they're going to learn. Obviously keeping in mind their future plans and requirements for university / job training etc.

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Little Green Leaves

[lewelma]

7 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think you are going to have to turn to yourself for the answer to that question. .....

FWIW, I think you do have your own philosophy and definitions. You do know what you are doing.  

Thanks for your thoughtful response, 8.  I do know my purpose and I am clear on my goals; however I would love to see what others think because it challenges my own perceptions. As I wrote in the other thread, my older boy is back from college, and we have been walking and talking around the volcano for 5 days. Hours and hours of ideas have flowed in both directions.  But what has surprised me the most is that he has come to believe that the purpose of high school education should be the study classical virtue rather than on content that is soon forgotten.  This is a fascinating thought, and is a good challenge to the plans I have for my younger for the next 2 years.  I have been very utilitarian in my younger boy's education -- I want him to be prepared for university and life. But classical virtue looks inside the soul and values development of self.  These to goals may be at cross purposes especially when you have limited time.  

 

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, annegables said:

This might be getting off topic, but there is also a difference in "having been educated" and "educated". ....There was much potential there, but their current education and conversations consist of soundbites from the news, romance novels, and pop culture. 

One of the hidden blessings for me in homeschooling was it gave a purpose to my continuing education. ....It is enormously gratifying and empowering.

Yes, I have definitely met people like this. In fact, the ones that continue to learn are the ones that stand out. I have a friend who reads the Mann-Booker award winning novels and some of the finalists every year.  This stands out. My dh went back for a PhD at 40, this stands out. I currently find that most parties I go to with friends from the past are getting more and more boring as no one has anything of value to talk about.  This is why I search out the 20 somethings at these gatherings. 

I often dabble in my continuing education, and I am starting to desire a more organized and focused effort into certain areas. The impact of this is that I really want to read textbooks rather than wikipedia articles.  I need some cohesion, and I need an author with a purpose that is driving the text forward to a goal. Now the thing I need to do is put reading time into my schedule, which is pretty hard to do given how much tutoring I do. Luckily for me it is summer!!!

[lewelma]

47 minutes ago, beaners said:

From my point of view there are a few main requirements to be educated. There is a lot of overlap between the categories. These are also our main goals in our family. 

It is knowing enough about the world beyond your life that you are able to look outside of yourself. Languages, history and science jump into this category.

In addition it is having the knowledge and ability to look inside yourself, to be able to act rightly and be a positive influence in that world. Ethics, religion, and also things that fall outside of the traditional school scope like personal mental health work fall here.

You should be able to recognize beauty and wonder in the world. Math, the arts, science all fit here for me.

You should have the ability to provide for yourself and others. Practical life skills, basic home and auto needs, financial education, career training if your passion is not also your job, and a responsible attitude toward work.

If there is a general cultural body of knowledge I feel like that should be included. That influences what we focus on within those categories. Why is geometry "required" but advanced number theory is optional and extra? Why do we read enduring and influential literature rather than writing from an obscure and unrecognized author?

This is a wonderful classification!  Thanks for sharing it! I think I am stuck a bit on your last point with the general cultural body of knowledge.  I achieved that with my older boy, but am not with my younger.  He much prefers deep dives, so the surface coverage is minimal.  For example, he is currently spending 6 months on reading Crossing the Rubicon by Tom Hollands with his dad.  Boy will he know a lot about the Roman republic, but not much other history.  He feels that Crash Course world history 1 and 2 watched numerous times is sufficient for his general knowledge, and that the deep dives have impacted how he can see the details and politics of one small time in the world and how different (or the same) it is from our current time.  

Basically, I have a plan and a good one, but I'm dabbling with adding in this general cultural body of knowledge and classical virtue.  My thought however is that I will tip the apple cart. That what we have now is working, and I should stay the course. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

42 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I love these questions. 

I think the opposite of education is superstition. Someone who is NOT educated is ruled by irrational fears, has a clannish mentality, and can be easily led. Someone who is well educated has the ability to gather and weigh information; they also  have the ability to communicate their point of view to others. An education should be broadening, not limiting -- it should equip you to speak to people from different backgrounds than yours. That's why foreign language is important (because learning one foreign language teaches you that languages work differently); it's why history and literature and art and music are important. Science too; I may not remember much physics, but it gave me another way to look at the world.

That is a very interesting way to think about it. Another way to look at the world.  I like it. I will bring that up with him.

Quote

That said, you're planning for 11th grade, and by that stage education is probably going to look really different for different people. An 11th grader is ready to specialize and make decisions on their own about what they're going to learn. Obviously keeping in mind their future plans and requirements for university / job training etc.

I have his last two years laid out for school diploma requirements. 2 years each of: Calculus, Chemistry, Geography. Haha.  Not nearly as hard as what you guys have to do.  🙂  For my homeschool requirements for 11th and 12th grad, I throw in History, Music, Drama, Literature. 

It is my homeschool requirements that I want to tweak.  None of it counts for a diploma, and he knows it. So to get buy in I need to make it valuable.  I am currently thinking about what I have time to do for the last 2 years to make him truly educated. Thus, this thread. And I am wondering if I should spend my remaining time on breadth. Would it be a valuable addition?  I'm not sure.  

Edited December 31, 2019 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

15 minutes ago, lewelma said:

. But classical virtue looks inside the soul and values development of self.  These to goals may be at cross purposes especially when you have limited time.  

I dont see the cross purposes. Jesuit philosophy is training the mind for the end for which we were created. I am just copying and pasting from one of my old responses.

The goal was educating the whole person: mentally, spiritually, and physically. The ultimate objective was to educate man so that they could meet the goal for which they are created--eternal salvation.

 

The proximate educational aims are, first, to develop all the powers of the body and soul. It’s the whole man that is being formed: his body, senses, memory, imagination, intellect, and will. It is developing, disciplining, and directing all the capacities of the human personality.

 

It is through the interior mental freedom that the spiritual life begins its fulfillment. The central study of education therefore is not exclusively defined as studying Latin/Greek, cyclical history, etc in being classical, but through the subjects which form the human identity…..humanities, theology, and philosophy.

[lewelma]

7 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

The proximate educational aims are, first, to develop all the powers of the body and soul. It’s the whole man that is being formed: his body, senses, memory, imagination, intellect, and will. It is developing, disciplining, and directing all the capacities of the human personality. 

I'll bring this list up with him. He is definitely better at some than others, and by seeing them laid out, he may be interested in improving his weaker ones. I like it!

[annegables]

I think to be truly educated, a woman must be able to paint tables, cover screens, and net purses. And of course, she must be proficient in music, singing, dancing, and the modern languages. 

“All this she must possess,” added Darcy, “and to all this she must yet add something more substantial, in the improvement of her mind by extensive reading.”

[Little Green Leaves]

31 minutes ago, lewelma said:

That is a very interesting way to think about it. Another way to look at the world.  I like it. I will bring that up with him.

I have his last two years laid out for school diploma requirements. 2 years each of: Calculus, Chemistry, Geography. Haha.  Not nearly as hard as what you guys have to do.  🙂  For my homeschool requirements for 11th and 12th grad, I throw in History, Music, Drama, Literature. 

It is my homeschool requirements that I want to tweak.  None of it counts for a diploma, and he knows it. So to get buy in I need to make it valuable.  I am currently thinking about what I have time to do for the last 2 years to make him truly educated. Thus, this thread. And I am wondering if I should spend my remaining time on breadth. Would it be a valuable addition?  I'm not sure.  

Breadth vs depth: to me, late high school is a time to go in depth. What do I know, I don't have teenagers yet, but I'm basing this on my memory of high school and on what I see in my extended family these days. Every teenager is different but they are all individuating, right? It's a time when the math kids want to obsess over exciting math, and the drama kids want to write their own plays, and they really get a lot out of that. So depth seems like the natural way to go.

Maybe one way to get some breadth at that age is to go cross disciplinary? Projects that combine literature with history, or that combine music with math, etc?

These threads have been really helpful in my long-term planning -- please keep them coming : )

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

 

These threads have been really helpful in my long-term planning -- please keep them coming : )

That is actually why I am starting them.  I am experienced enough in education to wander through this process on my own in the next month while I am planning this summer, but I figured that some of you may want to watch a bit as I meander before coming to a conclusion. 

Maybe one way to get some breadth at that age is to go cross disciplinary? Projects that combine literature with history, or that combine music with math, etc?

I agree. This is what we are doing with Problem Based Learning in Geography.  In our projects we combine: History, Comparative Government, Law, Ethics, Sociology, Psychology, Statistics, Earth Science, and Economics.  So I kind of have the social sciences down.  I am more dabbling with what I want to accomplish with the humanities and sciences.  What kind of breadth vs what kind of depth. 

Science: We are doing Chemistry over 2 years.  Do I want to throw in Physics? Bio?  If so, how? 

Humanities: I'm thinking right now of listening to audio books with my ds while he works on his hook rug.  I'm trying to pull him off the screen, so I'm thinking that I have 3 nights a week when my dh does not read history to ds, and this might be the time to go after books like Pride and Prejudice (which he loved). I'm also thinking about family movie night and getting the Shakespeare adaptations or movie adaptations of classic novels we have read.  So grabbing some breadth and exposure, but in a fun non-schooly way. 

[maize]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

That is a very interesting way to think about it. Another way to look at the world.  I like it. I will bring that up with him.

I have his last two years laid out for school diploma requirements. 2 years each of: Calculus, Chemistry, Geography. Haha.  Not nearly as hard as what you guys have to do.  🙂  For my homeschool requirements for 11th and 12th grad, I throw in History, Music, Drama, Literature. 

It is my homeschool requirements that I want to tweak.  None of it counts for a diploma, and he knows it. So to get buy in I need to make it valuable.  I am currently thinking about what I have time to do for the last 2 years to make him truly educated. Thus, this thread. And I am wondering if I should spend my remaining time on breadth. Would it be a valuable addition?  I'm not sure.  

I think there is no need to fit everything that is important into two years.

Learning doesn't end with high school graduation. I know you know this, and that what you are wrestling with is the closing of your window to most impact your son's education, but I am not sure broadening is what I would be considering. I think rather I would question myself regarding what I perceive as being most important for this particular child at this time, what will best prepare him for his next steps, prepare him to continue his own learning away from your direct influence, and focus most of you energy there.

He has a lifetime to become educated.

[maize]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

That is actually why I am starting them.  I am experienced enough in education to wander through this process on my own in the next month while I am planning this summer, but I figured that some of you may want to watch a bit as I meander before coming to a conclusion. 

 

 

I agree. This is what we are doing with Problem Based Learning in Geography.  In our projects we combine: History, Comparative Government, Law, Ethics, Sociology, Psychology, Statistics, Earth Science, and Economics.  So I kind of have the social sciences down.  I am more dabbling with what I want to accomplish with the humanities and sciences.  What kind of breadth vs what kind of depth. 

Science: We are doing Chemistry over 2 years.  Do I want to throw in Physics? Bio?  If so, how? 

Humanities: I'm thinking right now of listening to audio books with my ds while he works on his hook rug.  I'm trying to pull him off the screen, so I'm thinking that I have 3 nights a week when my dh does not read history to ds, and this might be the time to go after books like Pride and Prejudice (which he loved). I'm also thinking about family movie night and getting the Shakespeare adaptations or movie adaptations of classic novels we have read.  So grabbing some breadth and exposure, but in a fun non-schooly way. 

I think audiobooks are a great screen alternative, we are heavy audiobook listeners. I find the combination of listening while doing something with my hands particularly pleasing.

[lewelma]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

what you are wrestling with is the closing of your window to most impact your son's education....

I would question myself regarding what I perceive as being most important for this particular child at this time, what will best prepare him for his next steps, prepare him to continue his own learning away from your direct influence, and focus most of you energy there.

Outstanding advice.  I had not actually recognized this as a closing-of-the-window-of-influence quandary. And the key is that I need to "prepare him to continue his own learning away from your direct influence." This is not a content goal. I'm focusing on the wrong thing. 

[Rosie_0801]

There are some fabulously quirky podcasts too. My brother is listening to an ethics podcast, 'Minefield,' with Waleed Aly and Scott Stephens. I'm listening to 'Gastropod,' about the history and science of food. 

Perhaps look at what pitfalls you think your boy is likely to fall into. It is this which drives most of the choices I make on how dd and I spend our limited time together.

[Momto6inIN]

On 12/30/2019 at 9:09 PM, xahm said:

Two people who are both well educated might have very different knowledge bases, but they should be able to have a fascinating conversation with one another.

I love this! So true.

23 hours ago, annegables said:

This might be getting off topic, but there is also a difference in "having been educated" and "educated". And we often conflate schooling with education. Let's take someone who has been out of formal schooling for 20 years. If they had a wonderful education full of great literature, comprehensive science, thorough history, etc, then they were educated well. But one can only rest on the laurels of past glory for so long. If there is no effort to continue reading, learning, discussing, and thinking deeply, then it is easy to get to 40yo and no longer be truly educated. I know people like this. There was much potential there, but their current education and conversations consist of soundbites from the news, romance novels, and pop culture. 

I find myself doing this too - reading less and thinking less and fiddling around more on my phone 😞 I'm finding that I have to be very purposeful to keep reading real literature and books and continue learning new things so I don't become boring!

20 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

An education should be broadening, not limiting -- it should equip you to speak to people from different backgrounds than yours.

Great point! Like xahm said above, two very differently but well educated people should be able to communicate well with each other. 

19 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

Breadth vs depth: to me, late high school is a time to go in depth. What do I know, I don't have teenagers yet, but I'm basing this on my memory of high school and on what I see in my extended family these days. Every teenager is different but they are all individuating, right? It's a time when the math kids want to obsess over exciting math, and the drama kids want to write their own plays, and they really get a lot out of that. So depth seems like the natural way to go.

Maybe one way to get some breadth at that age is to go cross disciplinary? Projects that combine literature with history, or that combine music with math, etc?

These threads have been really helpful in my long-term planning -- please keep them coming : )

Totally agree!

The above posts all made such great points, I don't know if I have any of substance to add 🙂 I'lI think about it and come back if I do.

[Momto6inIN]

Been mulling this over and asked DS for his thoughts and this is some of what we've come up with.

We can't get behind a system that bases education on content because then at some point that requires you to make a value judgement on whether or not, say, knowledge of literature or physics is more inherently valuable than knowledge of animal husbandry or crop production.

We were tempted to say that education means you are equipped to acquire and apply knowledge, but the end of that argument is to basically equate intelligence with education, and that's not right either because education is what is supposed to build upon whatever intelligence you're born with.

We both like the idea that an educated person should be able to communicate what he knows to someone else and likewise be able to comprehend when someone else communicates their knowledge to him. That seems to account for differences in culture and learning environments that results in different bases of knowledge.

We also like the idea that being educated means being able to apply knowledge you do have in order to solve problems in areas you don't necessarily have a lot of knowledge of.

As far as achieving this, I do like the idea of focusing on breadth in elementary and middle school followed by focusing a little more on depth in high school.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

This is an interesting question for me, because I'm not sure whether to classify myself as well-educated or not. Over the years, I've discovered that I make a lousy generalist. Traditionally siloed subjects leave almost no mark on me. Almost all the history I remember is from fiction and other leisure reading; I remember almost no Canadian history at all, despite having taken it at school for the requisite number of years. I know a minimal amount of biology and chemistry, despite having good grades in them in high school. I speak no French, despite years of learning it. 

On the other hand, I tend to do the things I do passionately very well. In high school, I thought that was only going to apply to mathematics (which I was passionate about at the time), but it turned out to be generally true. My interest in mathematics produced an IMO medal and a Ph.D from a prestigious institution. My interest in translation resulted in me publishing three different translations of Russian science fiction books, despite having no background in translation whatsoever. My interest in babywearing meant that I got really into wrapping, invented new ways to wear a baby using a wrap, and starting a thriving and now very large babywearing Facebook group. My interest in math education has resulted in me rewriting an AoPS class and now creating my own math curriculum. 

I'm jealous of the education that @lewelma's son got because it sounds like despite his passion for mathematics, he had time for other passions. I simply didn't have enough hours in a day to do anything well in high school except math. Aside from that, I had to sit in hours and hours of lectures that I mostly tuned out due to boredom, and then I had to do hours of busywork after school. I didn't aspire to excellence in anything other than mathematics, and I wish I'd had the time to do so. I'm pretty sure I would have not only gotten more depth as a result: I would have also gotten more breadth, because the "breadth" I did get in school didn't stick. For me, at least, it was pointless. 

 

It is so interesting to me to hear about your schooling experience.  Because I did not read until I was 12, and aspired to follow my sister to Duke by age 17, my high school career was intense, and what I learned was how to work crazy hard and to study effectively.  I don't remember any of the content, but my skill set was superb so that when I went to Duke, it actually seemed easier to me than high school.

I do remember being bored in certain high school classes, and that is where I learned the very useful skill of writing upside down and backwards in cursive at speed so I could take notes. That is a skill I still remember, but I'm not as fast as I once was. 🙂 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

I'm jealous of the education that @lewelma's son got because it sounds like despite his passion for mathematics, he had time for other passions.

Yes, this is the gift of homeschooling. I required he work with me for 2 hours per day to pound through English and Science (1 hour each). The rest of his daylight hours were for math and violin - 4 to 5 hours.  Night time hours were for reading - Literature and Economist/National Geographic/Scientific American. He felt empowered to follow his passions and he had the time to do it.  

At this point, he is so broad that he is just starting to consider Scientific Ethics as his field rather than Physic Researcher.  This is still in its infancy, but there is joy in his eyes when he discusses the work he has done in philosophy, ethics, and risk. 

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, square_25 said:

OK, now I'm curious: what do you mean about not reading until 12? 

2nd grade (7): I remember *learning* how to read with Dick and Jane books.  See Dick Run. Run Dick Run. See Spot Run. etc

3rd grade: For some horrible reason I skipped 3rd grade when we moved state.

4th grade (8): I could link words to pictures and have my 4th grade human body cut out with parts labeled in my handwriting. I also clearly remember reading a "Nancy Drew" book, where the first page was a half page with big print.  I counted 20 words on that half page that I could not read. I also remember being in church in that state, crossing out all the words in the bulletin that I could not read, and then laughing to myself as I read what was left "the...and...its...how..."  

5th grade (9): My parents sent me to an after school program to teach me to read. I attended for a full school year, but it didn't seem to help much.

6th grade (10): I remember copying phrases onto a poster linked with images about how much items costs. I do not remember reading *anything* that year, and certainly not a book, and my parents didn't read to me either. I never wrote a paper or even a paragraph.

7th grade (11): I moved to my 5th state at the beginning of 7th grade and remember learning Latin and loving it, but also remember being completely unable to read any worksheets given to me in any subject for homework. I do not remember reading anything in 7th grade except Latin. I remember doing everything by ear, but I also remember fill-in-the-blank single-words tests so I'm kind of unclear as to my level at this point. I did a lot of math. I was still never assigned a paper or even a paragraph to write. 

In the summer before 8th grade (12): my dad tells the story that I spent 3 *full* months for *many* hours a day trying to read The Hobbit.  He says that I learned to read with that book. It is the first book of *any* kind I remember reading in my life. No readers, no picture books, no little novels. Nothing before The Hobbit. 

8th grade (12): I read about 10 easy fantasy novels that year. I remember being assigned my first paper every in my schooling career and being completely unable to write it.  I still remember asking and asking and asking my mom over the period of hours and having her finally say "I will NOT write this for you, Ruth." That was my first paper, and my mom was clueless as to my struggles. My guess is that I had been hiding things for years and the schools had just been passing me forward. 

9th grade (13): One year later, they put me in honors English because I was one of the 'good' kids.  They gave me 1984 as my first book, and I remember being *completely* unable to read it. At this point I also could not spell about 50% of words.  

The rest of high school was just a massive catch up. I say age 12, because that was they year that I worked so hard to learn to read with The Hobbit. It was a long hard road for me and I was in private school for 3 of those years (4th-6th) and had 2 parents with PhDs.  I'm just not quite clear on what happened. I'm just one of those kids who slipped through the cracks. 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by lewelma

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I love this thread. There's so much to ponder. 

Heading into my daughter's final official year of school, I'm mulling over a lot of these things.

Thanks Ruth 🌻

[Bluegoat]

I tend to think of the basis of being an educated person as being self-concious about what you believe, and why.  Being able to reason, sure, but also knowing that you can make reason go wherever you want, what people really need to know is where their starting place is, and why they are starting there as opposed to somewhere else. I think this requires some knowledge of history and at least one belief system, generally the one that underlies the educational decisions being made.

Along those same lines I think a knowledge of how we know is important, how do we know about the world, how do we know about science, how do we know about history?

More generally I think to be educated should mean having the knowledge and understanding necessary to make decisions as a citizen.  Can you vote intelligently, talk about important questions facing society, get something done in your community?

Cultural knowledge, literature, art, etc, of your own culture is also important, it tells us who we are, what kind of people we are, where we come from, what we value. In many ways more so than study of history tells us.

And I guess that other thing that strikes me is that all this knowing isn't just about abstract knowing, but also it's about experience, and love.

[lewelma]

49 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Wow, @lewelma. That sounds like a disaster. I'm so glad you managed to catch up. 

You know, it occurs to me that I didn't read until I was 12, either, in some sense... at least, I didn't read in English! We moved to Canada when I was 11, and reading was really hard for a few years. I was a fluent Russian reader (I had learned by 4, I think), which helped some, but it certainly wasn't enough. I think it took something like 10 years for my verbal intelligence to catch up to my mathematical intelligence. 

I caught up because I was *driven*. Driven to keep up with my older sister who set a crazy high bar.  She went to Duke at 16 and at 20 was valedictorian of Duke engineering (and a woman to boot). That probably helped me get into duke the following year.  🙂 By 24 she owned a patent on the MRI. 

My high school experience was: work on the bus to school, do homework during all classes where the instruction was not good, go to Track/Crossing Country after school and RUN, drive home, eat dinner, work from 6:30-10:30 every night on homework. Sleep 8 hours, wake up and do it again.  I brought my homework to the all day track meets on Saturdays and worked inside the parked bus.  I worked all day Sunday except for church and youth group.  I just worked. ALL THE TIME. Came in 7th out of 400 in my graduating class. 

I got to Duke, and it was easy in comparison to the crazy hard schedule I had had to keep in high school. 

My math intelligence was also far ahead of my verbal skills, which is why I think they thought I was smart.  This led to my skipping a grade when I could not read and led me to being passed through school with not a thought to holding me back.  In our society, if you are good at math, you are SMART. I think that was all that was considered in my situation.