Closed door or hiccup in our "plans"? CC

[cintinative]

I need prayer.

I might delete this later for my ds' sake.

Last year I was in a heavy debate of what to do with my oldest for lit/history.  I prayed and prayed and decided against the local UM school which is not super classical in favor of WHA which looked really great on paper. Honestly I wasn't sure until the very last what the right call was. 

We have been with WHA for GC1 which has gone okay but not fantastic (he is getting an A but not totally grasping the themes of some of these works).  Compared to some of the other kids in the class he is very "average." 

In addition to the WHA course, we finished up SICC-B at home, did Lost Tools of Writing, and now are working through The Elegant Essay.   Our prior writing was all IEW.

So we took another look at the UM school and decided that it might be a good step for both of my kids.  They were required to take an "assessment." We were told it would address writing. My friend who asked specifically was told grammar would not be addressed.  Various families who were enrolled told us the assessment was "no big deal."  I didn't really prep my kids. 

It turned out that the assessment for my oldest included a five paragraph essay based on a writing prompt and a bunch of grammar questions (underline this, circle this, etc.) He finished in 45 minutes (out of an hour total).

Five weeks after we took it, I heard that DS13 did not do well.  They said his writing had good structure but was overly simplistic. This didn't totally surprise me as 1) we don't write from prompts and never have and 2) I think we took some steps back in terms of complexity by doing Lost Tools.  However, they said that this would mean he must take a summer writing course.  I was not permitted to provide writing samples or even see his essay.  Also they said he missed some things on the grammar like parts of speech (we have done tons of grammar here--FLL 1-4, GWTM 1 and part of 2, Fix-It 1 plus three years of Latin). The only thing I can think is that he didn't follow directions correctly.  Again, I am not allowed to see this assessment. They also argued that his essay reflected a need for more grammar instruction and so he must take in addition to our planned coursework, another grammar course (over the entire school year next year). They will not consider reevaluating after his summer writing is completed. They said it could not be remediated in that time.

So I am at the moment waffling between "did my student phone this in?" and/or "have I really missed that he is that poor of a writer"?  Also I am struggling with the way they are making this less than one hour assessment into what they consider to be a comprehensive and accurate view of my child's grammar and writing ability.  

The whole thing has had me in tears multiple times and made me wonder if we weren't supposed to stay with WHA after all.  

How am I supposed to interpret this? A closed door? A hiccup? A wakeup call that I am not doing the right things? 

Please be gentle.  TIA.

ETA: I didn't find out about the grammar reevaluation until a couple of days ago, after I had already registered ds11. I can pull him still.

Edited April 3, 2019 by cintinative

[8filltheheart]

Well, as a diehard homeschooler, I would run the other direction.  I would not want any of my kids tobe evaluated at 13 and assessed as having X skills based on a simple 1 hr exam.  I would also wonder why on earth they wouldn't let me see the work that that they evaluated that allowed them to reach so many conclusions.

FWIW, lots of kids have immature writing at 13 and graduate high school with excellent skills.  (and plenty of college kids still have gag-worthy immature writing skills.)

What is the draw to this school?  Do you no longer want to homeschool? Do you want to hand over control to an outside provider? Do you want your child in a judging or supportive environment?

Another FWIW.....you should see my 13 yr old's writing.  It is incredibly immature.  No biggie.  She'll get to where she is able to get when she gets there.  She is not her siblings.  She is doing the best she can.  If people were evaluating her writing harshly, she would shut down and make less progress than affirming her for what she is doing well.

[cintinative]

42 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 

What is the draw to this school?  Do you no longer want to homeschool? Do you want to hand over control to an outside provider? Do you want your child in a judging or supportive environment?

FWIW, that is my reaction to them not letting me see the assessment.  I did ask again about seeing the essay.  They were a firm no on seeing the grammar portion and also on "reevaluating" his grammar based on the summer writing intensive.

If they attend there, they will only do the "core"  which is history, Bible, and comp/lit.  I want help with lit and composition. I didn't feel equipped to do great books with my kids but now I am not sure if that is our "path."  I am comfortable doing science, math, grammar, etc. myself. Online providers are an option for this kid, which is why we used WHA.  I don't know that my youngest would do well with online classes. He is a very different kid. Ironically, he did just fine on the UM assessment.

Edited April 3, 2019 by cintinative

[Arcadia]

The not letting you see the assessments is bizarre and sounds like a money grab unless summer school is free. My kids’ public school teachers have always allowed me to see any administered assessments done by my kids (other than state testing which is understandable).  

[cintinative]

1 minute ago, Arcadia said:

The not letting you see the assessments is bizarre and sounds like a money grab unless summer school is free. My kids’ public school teachers have always allowed me to see any administered assessments done by my kids (other than state testing which is understandable).  

 

No, it's $100. To me, it's not much especially when compared to the grammar class which is another  $425 on top of their core tuition. 

[mom2att]

Hey Cin--since you're in Cincy, and you mentioned the very familiar history/comp and lit/Bible "core," I'm pretty sure I know the program you are talking about. We have it here in FL, too.

My oldest graduated from this program and my middle was finishing Core E when my youngest, new to the program, did not do well on his assessment. They wanted him to go back a core for similar reasons that you were given. But since I was familiar with the program and knew my son's abilities, I convinced them to let him proceed and he's done fine.

Bottom line is they know their program and are mainly looking to make sure families/kids succeed. If you are comfortable with the program otherwise, I'd see the summer school option as a chance for him to shore up his skills and be ready for something new.

Feel free to PM me if you want more info.

[RootAnn]

@cintinative Have you looked at CLRC's Upper Elementary Language Arts or Intro to Lit/Comp? One hour of the LA is grammar & one hour is lit/writing. (Hardest part I have heard is that it is a two hour long class-but I believe there is a break halfway through.) The Lit / Comp is geared towards 7th-9th graders and doesn't cover as much grammar as the LA classes.

Book lists are on the website. There seem to be several here who have taken CLRC's Great Books classes, but I don't know how many have taken the Lit/Comp ones. 

There are also Latern English classes, Big River Academy, and many other online options separate from WHA. This doesn't have to be a bifurcation situation.

 

[Doodlebug]

Do you have details about their comp program?

I once asked a UM school my DS was attending about their composition curriculum.   After my motives were scrutinized for asking the question, I was told I place too great a value on composition.  There was no formal comp syllabus.  No comp curriculum in use at that time.  They waved an impressive lit list around, but composition consisted entirely of "Write an essay on what you read/this prompt."  And even those essays were handed back with little feedback.  

Comp is a huge time investment for the homeschooling parent and schools alike.  A gain in instructor expertise can easily cancel out with a large class size.  If the instructor is great, the syllabus solid, and the class size reasonable, you may have a great program there.  My experience is that those things rarely align.  

More importantly, if the school isn't willing to talk to you about the details of your DS's placement as you anticipate joining their ranks, it's safe to assume you can expect more of the same when you have questions about his general performance.  This is a dynamic the UM model must address.  A part time institution offers no one full time commitment (feedback is a benefit of a full time admin/teaching staff).  Off my soapbox and back to my full time commitment of homeschooling.

 

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

@cintinative Have you looked at CLRC's Upper Elementary Language Arts or Intro to Lit/Comp? One hour of the LA is grammar & one hour is lit/writing. (Hardest part I have heard is that it is a two hour long class-but I believe there is a break halfway through.) The Lit / Comp is geared towards 7th-9th graders and doesn't cover as much grammar as the LA classes.

There are also Latern English classes, Big River Academy, and many other online options separate from WHA. This doesn't have to be a bifurcation situation.

 

 

The CLRC Lit/Comp class was one I was looking at as a possibility.  I don't think he really needs grammar. I think possibly he didn't follow instructions correctly. If he needs anything, it is a shoring up on mechanics and I don't think he needs an outside teacher for that, if that makes sense. 

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, Doodlebug said:

Do you have details about their comp program?

I once asked a UM school my DS was attending about their composition curriculum.   After my motives were scrutinized for asking the question, I was told I place too great a value on composition.  There was no formal comp syllabus.  No comp curriculum in use at that time.  They waved an impressive lit list around, but composition consisted entirely of "Write an essay on what you read/this prompt."  And even those essays were handed back with little feedback.  

Comp is a huge time investment for the homeschooling parent and schools alike.  A gain in instructor expertise can easily cancel out with a large class size.  If the instructor is great, the syllabus solid, and the class size reasonable, you may have a great program there.  My experience is that those things rarely align.  

More importantly, if the school isn't willing to talk to you about the details of your DS's placement as you anticipate joining their ranks, it's safe to assume you can expect more of the same when you have questions about his general performance.  This is a dynamic the UM model must address.  A part time institution offers no one full time commitment (feedback is a benefit of a full time admin/teaching staff).  Off my soapbox and back to my full time commitment of homeschooling.

 

 

I know the 8th grade uses a specific curriculum (or did) but they have a new tutor next year, so maybe not.  The 9th grade is homemade curriculum. I have never seen a syllabus for the classes. It has not been offered. 

The last paragraph--this is my concern. If they are so sure of my child based on a 45 minute assessment, how many other issues will I have with them moving forward?  

From a faith standpoint, if God allowed my son to write a poor essay when he is capable of better, is that a sign that this school isn't right for us?  

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by cintinative

[Arcadia]

13 minutes ago, cintinative said:

The last paragraph--this is my concern. If they are so sure of my child based on a 45 minute assessment, how many other issues will I have with them moving forward?  

 

My kids’ public charter school teachers spent more than 2hrs per child assessing their English language competency and almost 4hrs per child assessing their math competency when my kids transferred to their school from our district’s elementary school. 

SAT essay portion is 50 minutes long and even then is not regarded as a very accurate judge of writing skills. 

[RootAnn]

44 minutes ago, cintinative said:

The last paragraph--this is my concern. If they are so sure of my child based on a 45 minute assessment, how many other issues will I have with them moving forward?  

From a faith standpoint, if God allowed my son to write a poor essay when he is capable of better, is that a sign that this school isn't right for us?  

Both of these would cause me to do what you are doing.  Stop & pray for guidance. 

Teaching writing is tough for me. I will pray that you get some direction on this. 

[Doodlebug]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

 

I know the 8th grade uses a specific curriculum (or did) but they have a new tutor next year, so maybe not.  The 9th grade is homemade curriculum. I have never seen a syllabus for the classes. It has not been offered. 

The last paragraph--this is my concern. If they are so sure of my child based on a 45 minute assessment, how many other issues will I have with them moving forward?  

From a faith standpoint, if God allowed my son to write a poor essay when he is capable of better, is that a sign that this school isn't right for us?  

 

 

You have some very reasonable concerns about this school.  To ask questions would be my one encouragement.  Get course specifics and see if they align with your goals.  I've been surprised to find my weakest homeschooling subject is better still than what appeared to be good looking programs.  

Your son's performance is not something that would even weigh into my decision.  The school has motivations which are outside of your son's best interests... populating a summer writing class being one of them.  

Edited April 4, 2019 by Doodlebug

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

From a faith standpoint, if God allowed my son to write a poor essay when he is capable of better, is that a sign that this school isn't right for us?  

I don't think you need a sign. He did poorly because when he needs to do the work on the spot, without prompts or supports, he isn't ready to. Even if the dc has maybe some executive function issues or isn't quite attentive, then going through a summer remediation course, where they put a lot of effort into helping kids be attentive to their work, might be just the thing.

You asked for their help and it almost seems like you're taking the results personally. They probably aren't giving you the assessment because they don't want to argue about it. Parents aren't allowed to see standardized testing, achievement testing, etc. either and just have to accept the results. Either you respect their opinions and the quality of their instruction or you don't.

You wouldn't want him to go into the classes NOT prepared to succeed. It makes the most sense to follow their guidance on what makes kids who score in those ranges succeed. I haven't used that program, but I'm just saying if you're asking them to take it over, you're kinda wanting to roll with their advice.

[8filltheheart]

My current college student is an accomplished writer. Her sr yr of high school she wrote a thesis paper on Shakespeare.  She is a language major who sumbits multiple essays every week with high grades.

Her SAT essay was beyond horrid. It was complete garbage and her score was very low. It was not representative of her writing abilities at all. Thankfully not a single school she applied to considered the essay. U's recognize that those timed prompt essays are not accurate assessments which is why most don't require them.

A 13 yr old not used to writing timed prompt assignments could very easily have choked and produced something not even close to what they are capable of producing.

No way I would accept an evaluation that I believe is counter to what I know about my student. If their assessment reaffirmed what I saw, fine. But an hr long assessment coming back counter to what I know and expecting me to pay for summer school and a remedial course that I know is unnecessary--I would not them being my student's primary assessor going forward bc I wouldn't value their pedagogical practices and I would be put off by being treated like a 3rd party without insight into my child's actual abilities.

[madteaparty]

I also think, just from my experience of one student 😉 that writing skills aren’t linear, like math might be for example. He may have had an off day. I don’t think you need to doubt your entire schooling life because of that. Though, welcome to the teen years 😬

Edited April 4, 2019 by madteaparty

[kiana]

Honestly, the fact that they aren't willing to reassess after the summer would have me quite concerned. It makes it seem incredibly rigid, and this was one of the problems with tracking that led to it being abolished -- someone being put on a low track would have little to no opportunity to jump up if they matured later or turned out to have been misplaced. 

If we (at the college) have someone who is trying to challenge a class, we usually just give them the final. Most of them are not successful, but at least both we and they are convinced that they need the class. The very occasional student who actually does do well on a cumulative final clearly shouldn't have to take the class. What do they have to lose by redoing the assessment at the end of the summer? At worst, he would score the same. 

[cintinative]

I just heard back. They will not release any part of the assessment, including the essay. Based on her description alone, he made careless errors on the grammar portion and phoned it in on the essay portion. It is their requirement, apparently, that if you do poorly on the grammar section that you must take grammar. This is a new thing, since grammar was not even mentioned during orientation and we weren't told grammar would be on the test. 

 I guess putting him in the grammar class and writing class would be the "natural consequences" of him doing poorly on the assessment. 

They still hold firm to their statement that "no preparation is required" for this assessment, although clearly if I had spent some time with him reinforcing what he had learned, he would have done better.  She seemed to not agree with this--it feels like she doesn't believe me when I tell her he is capable of better.

I am so confused. 

My husband was saying last night that hitting problems doesn't necessary mean it's the wrong path. So how to process this? I don't know.  

[8filltheheart]

The fact that you are still even thinking about it says quite a bit. (I would have immediately been so put off that I would have walked away without thinking twice. ) Maybe you are more ok with it than you think.

 

[Arcadia]

19 minutes ago, cintinative said:

They still hold firm to their statement that "no preparation is required" for this assessment, although clearly if I had spent some time with him reinforcing what he had learned, he would have done better.  She seemed to not agree with this--it feels like she doesn't believe me when I tell her he is capable of better.

 

DS14 won’t need to review before a placement test but he did do a quick review. DS13 needs review to do decently well for placement tests. I would be wary of a school that has that blanket statement/opinion for their school assessment. I would also be turn off by a school staff who makes the assumption that I am an “Asian tiger mom” (I’m Asian) and doesn’t have a gauge of my kid’s abilities. 

My family have “toured” many private high schools as a backup in case something happens to us. We don’t expect friends to homeschool as well as take on guardianship. Any school that gives us the vibe that they do not “allow” parental involvement would be an automatic strikeout. There is a difference between being a helicopter parent and wanting to know how to work with school teachers so that something is done if my kids are struggling in school. 

[cintinative]

27 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

The fact that you are still even thinking about it says quite a bit. (I would have immediately been so put off that I would have walked away without thinking twice. ) Maybe you are more ok with it than you think.

 

 

I told myself yesterday that if they wouldn't share the essay, I was walking away. And I had complete peace after that decision.  But then when she shared his results I waffled.  Overall though, I am very put off by the way the school is handling it. 

However, I am presently leaning really hard toward online classes and returning to our co-op.  My youngest would prefer that. I asked my oldest to think about his preference.  My youngest is really social so the concern has always been that online classes will not be good enough. Co-op would help. It's not a great need filler, but it will help with some of those social needs. 

[SoCal_Bear]

Are you solidly sold on WHA's Great Conversation approach? It is only one approach out there for Great Books. You might find a different provider's approach would resonate better especially given the aspects you mentioned in other posts that you thought weren't a great fit for your son. I took your comments quite seriously and thought long and hard about my own son to find a better fit for him for Great Books exposure which is not WHA. 

I will pray for you in your decision. If you do not feel at peace with this and that the school is not responding in a way that indicates that they are open to dialogue and welcome your partnership as his parent in his educational path, those are very significant indicators to me that you need to find a path forward that brings you and your family peace.

Edited April 4, 2019 by calbear

[cintinative]

Just now, calbear said:

Are you solidly sold on WHA's Great Conversation approach? It is only one approach out there for Great Books. You might find a different provider's approach would resonate better especially given the aspects you mentioned in other posts that you thought weren't a great fit for your son. I took your comments quite seriously and thought long and hard about my own son to find a better fit for him for Great Books exposure which is not WHA. 

I will pray for you in your decision. If you do not feel at peace with this and that the school is not responding in a way that indicates that they are open to dialogue and welcome your partnership as his parent in his educational path, those are very significant indicators to me that you need to find a path forward that brings you and your family peace.

 

No. If we did WHA I think I am looking at other classes. I am looking at CLRC and CAP for junior high options.  I like the look of CLRC a bit better because a lit/comp class fits us better than a history and lit with no comp. Do you have any other suggestions? 

Thank you for your prayers so much.

 

[SoCal_Bear]

Well, for me, I had decided based on how my son is wired up that I really need to separate writing from Great Books or at least have it not be high amount of writing output. That took CLRC off the table because I am pretty sure they are churning out papers every week. I actually really appreciated what Adam Lockridge had to say about the approach at Schole for those courses. I watched the Open House video and had an email convo with him. I am far more concerned about my son learning to think critically, discuss, and process the Great Books and not have him drowning in too much volume as well. I thought the selections for Schole seems less overwhelming and more accessible. Unfortunately, the syllabus is not uploaded. The selections I saw where from last year before they put up the current year class descriptions. The writing output he was looking for middle school is more individual to the student's ability rather and the focus is more in helping students learn to think. 

That being said, Aerthyln (sp?) from Texas has really engaged my interest in Wes Callihan's Schola Tutorial classes as well, but that is high school focused.

Edited April 4, 2019 by calbear

[Arcadia]

33 minutes ago, calbear said:

That being said, Aerthyln (sp?) from Texas has really engaged my interest in Wes Callihan's Schola Tutorial classes as well, but that is high school focused.

 

I am looking at Wasko Lit for my DS13, 8th grader, for this fall because of the lower writing output required.

https://www.writeathome.com/course-descriptions-wasko-lit

[SoCal_Bear]

@Arcadia I have been eyeing that one as well as Angelina Stanford's classes as well. However, the history compoenent has a lot of appeal for me.

[cintinative]

45 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

I am looking at Wasko Lit for my DS13, 8th grader, for this fall because of the lower writing output required.

https://www.writeathome.com/course-descriptions-wasko-lit

 

I had totally forgotten about Wasko lit! I will give them another look.  They might be a good option for high school also. 

[cintinative]

27 minutes ago, calbear said:

@Arcadia I have been eyeing that one as well as Angelina Stanford's classes as well. However, the history compoenent has a lot of appeal for me.

 

I checked because ScoutTN recommended them and her middle school course was all booked up.  =(

[cintinative]

Well, we discussed it and we are not going to do the UM school. I will probably use them down the road for Spanish and maybe Drawing but you don't need an assessment for that. 

I have peace about this decision. Thank you everyone who has prayed.  

[Farrar]

I think you're making the right call. I wouldn't trust an institution that was that rigid in their assessment process. I hope you feel good about it and can breathe now.

[cintinative]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I think you're making the right call. I wouldn't trust an institution that was that rigid in their assessment process. I hope you feel good about it and can breathe now.

 Thank you. I really do.  I am grateful.

Now to figure out what to do about online classes. 😃

[ScoutTN]

12 hours ago, cintinative said:

 

I checked because ScoutTN recommended them and her middle school course was all booked up.  =(

Angelina's classes fill FAST and registration was in February.