How do/did you decide which subjects to cut?

[heres_a_llama]

My family is very early in the process, so I'm trying to wrap my head around something that I'm hoping seasoned pros can help explain to me.

I've read both the 3rd and 4th editions of TWTM. I agree with SWB and JW's ultimate conclusions that no one can follow the schedule they provided in the 4th edition (required by the publisher, is my understanding), that each family will have to prioritize some subjects at the expense of others. I guess I want to know how other families have done that in practice.

When I read the descriptions of curriculum, I want to do everything with my children. When I look at all the work that would involve for me and for them... I hesitate for my sanity and for what is developmentally healthy for each of them. Did you make different choices for each child (child A gets Art and Logic, child B gets Music and Latin) based on their interests or skills, or did you make choices for the entire family (Children A and B are doing Logic and Music) to minimize the planning, shopping, etc required of you? Some other system that hasn't occurred to me yet?

Thanks in advance for the discussion.

[2_girls_mommy]

It's about opportunity and skills and interests for us.

Interests- Mine dance a lot of hours a week. That cuts into say the extra language arts. In high school WTM lays out a full English grammar credit plus a whole literature credit each year. There is no way we do enough of either for two full credits, even though as WTMers we do focus on LA a lot. I give my kids one English credit a year encompassing the combined writing, lit, and grammar we do (at this point, not a full year of curriculum for any of these. Just the combination of work on all of them continuously. None of them done as fully as in WTM, but all attempted. We don't cover as many novels a year or write as many papers or do much from the grammar book. But we do a little of each.)

Yes, one of mine had some of the middle school WTM advised logic and a semester of WTM logic in high school (from the MP that WTM suggests for middle school, putting her into WTM rhetoric suggestions for 10th grade, not 9th.) She did not go on to the second semester of material logic. She's going to logic in college for the deeper study. The other did not do the logic in middle school or high school yet. I'd like her to take a semester before she graduates as she is unlikely to take it in college. She may not get to WTM rhetoric until 11th or 12th, but that suits her just fine.

Skills-Latin- one of mine has taken years and years. She is inclined towards language. Since she's been successful with it, she's basically skipped Spanish. We tried a little at times, but I wasn't successful with two languages at once for her. I never found a plan/curriculum/schedule that worked for us. The other child has gone back and forth, still doing more Latin, but I've been able to do a little more Spanish with her. And it's ok. The one will do multiple languages in college even though she's had almost no Spanish. The other with a little exposure hasn't gone as deep and will stop after just her required two years in high school and college foreign language. It's not a focus with her.   

Opportunity- we are members of a homeschool community and co-ops. At times we've bypassed some of the WTM schedule take advantage of what was available- a great history class or science class planned, joining a competitive robotics team one year that took a lot of time. We just built our curriculum around those things those year if I felt it was worth it, even if it meant getting off of WTM schedules. 

I'd plan each year around what I wanted to do using the WTM, what the kids wanted to do, what they needed to do (therapies can take up a lot of time, but are necessary some years. We've had physical therapy years, vision therapy years, etc, where those filled in for some subjects, or took time away where we had to get creative about how we did things like reading Chaucer during heat and ice time in physical therapy appointments and discussions in the car on the way home.) And then figured out what's possible, adjusted, tried it out, adjusted some more, and then got done what we could. And it's all worked out.

Skills- A kid struggling dyslexia obviously can't keep up with WTM as written and takes some adjusting.

Interests- And that same kid who loves art and takes two outside classes a week, plus does art at home, can be easily taught more writing and reading and spelling skills by building more of her curriculum around those topics or including more art and hands on into everything.... You get the picture. It means she does less Latin and logic. The other does some art because she enjoys some and because as a family that's what we do. But her heart isn't in the way the one's is. She spends more time in other studies. Her schedule (part time job and other extras) don't allow her to do all the art classes that the one does anyway. 

I spent the day doing college tours and talking to the departments my DD is most likely to major in yesterday, and they're all happy with what she's done. We've prepared her for her needs, using WTM as a guideline and guiding her towards her natural talents and interests. Where the next one is led by that same book, only two years younger, will be an entirely different place. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by 2_girls_mommy

[HomeAgain]

Opportunity, skills, interest, time.

Look, I love the WTM.  Most of it.  But I think Charlotte Mason had a clearer idea of expectations for young children, and I certainly believe the two ideas can merge: short, focused lessons with a classical scope and sequence.
We do a lot of that here, and ds is able to do a full line up of subjects at 9yo:
Math
Spelling
Handwriting
Writing/grammar
Reading
Literature
Science
History/geography
Music
French
Latin
Memory work/poetry study

Art is the only subject that we consistently have a miss.  DS doesn't like it, so sometimes I make it an issue, sometimes I don't.  We're not doing any logic this year, either.  But I try to make most of his lessons 5-20 minutes long, unless he particularly enjoys it and wants to go longer.  There's a lot you can get done when you expect short bursts of focus that you build up longer and longer each year.  And if you don't get to everything each day?  That's when it's time to loop.  Go down the list until you stop, pick up again there the next day and cycle back to the top.  Over and over. 

[wendyroo]

For us, I don't find that TWTM schedule is actually far off from our reality.  My oldest is in fourth grade, and I feel like we do cover most of what is outlined in TWTM...we schedule slightly differently, and prioritize different subjects, but end up covering all of the same subjects.

For example, the book lists 30 minutes, 3 times a week for "skill building" reading.  My fourth grader doesn't really require much skill building reading anymore, but he does read aloud a page from Wise Owl Polysyllables everyday...but that only takes 2-3 minutes.  He also reads for fun for 2-3 hours a day...but, I don't consider that part of school.

The book lists 30-45 minutes, 3 days a week of literature.    All of my kiddos function much better with shorter lessons (I tend to view our homeschool as classical materials presented in a Charlotte Mason way), so my fourth grader does about 15-20 minutes of literature, 6 days a week.

The book lists 20 minutes of spelling and 30 minutes of grammar, each 3-4 days a week.  I feel we are moving along just fine in those subjects with only ~10 minutes each, 3 days a week.  He also spends a few minutes a day on vocabulary study.

Writing is one place we tend to spend more time.  Particularly this year because it is one of my focus areas for my fourth grader.  However, he does not require 15 minutes of penmanship everyday as is outlined in the book.  Instead he spends 15 minutes, 3 days a week on typing, and about 30-45 minutes on the other three days working on writing paragraphs.

The book suggests 40-60 minutes a day for math.  My fourth grader is a very advanced, mathy kid, but 40 minutes a day is his absolute limit.  Often it is closer to 30 minutes a day, but since he does that 6-7 days a week, 300+ days a year, he is able to make plenty of progress.

History and science are where we diverge sharply from the book's recommendations.  They suggest 3 hours of each per week.  I have found that those two subjects become overwhelming and fall by the wayside if we try to attempt them both at once.  Instead, we do a full year's worth of each compressed into one semester.  We spend about 30 minutes a day on whichever one we are currently studying...so only about 3 hours a week total, though the kids are of course also constantly learning from documentaries, living books, nature walks, museum trips, family projects, etc.

We do choose to prioritize a foreign language.  My kids spend at least 30 minutes a day reading, writing, listening to and speaking Spanish.  As their skills grow, we are able to "double dip" some subjects.  We recently finished reading a biography about Fidel Castro in Spanish = history, geography, politics, ethics, foreign language and culture, etc.

In TWTM, Art and Music are listed as optional, with a recommendation of 2-3 hours a week.  My fourth grader does spend 15-20 minutes a day practicing the piano and 1 hour a week of formal art instruction.  Otherwise, art materials are available and he spends quite a bit of time drawing comics and cobbling together "art" from random junk and copious amounts of tape and glue.  

It is not mentioned in the book at all, but we also prioritize computer skills and programming, so my fourth grader spends about 2 hours a week learning Python.

All told, when I total up the time recommended in the book for a fourth grader, it seems to come to about 25 hours a week.  My fourth grader spends about 4 hours on school 5 days a week, plus an hour long art class, plus about 5 hours spread out over the weekend = 26 hours.  So just about the same.

Wendy

[2_girls_mommy]

Yes, I've never called it a loop. I'm not that organized, lol. But we have morning basket/journal time. I like Thinking Tree journals for some of this. We just do the next page in the mornings that we have time. So if we flip to the page, and it's a geography page, yippee! We pull out the WTM Geography Coloring Books that we don't do weekly this year, and work that morning on them. If it's a current events page, good, because I don't think of it it have time super often. If it's a read 15min from four books page, I rejoice and hand them the stack of books I want a few pages read from or I pick a couple and they pick a couple. This is a good time for me to get Bible in, random non fiction that I think are worth looking at, etc. If it's a creative writing or journal page, good, because I don't assign any of that otherwise.  It kind of does the loop for me. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by 2_girls_mommy

[FairProspects]

I honestly just looked at each kid and triaged skills. I have dyslexics, so we have had to drop a lot of WTM.

Reading first. Once they could decode fluently, then spelling and light grammar, usually alternated throughout the week.

History & science every other day

Math individually every day.

Now that they are older, it's similar but with interests driving the schooling. My oldest is inherently analytical, but leans heavily math & science. He probably won't ever take logic or rhetoric and I'm ok with that. He took very basic Latin in 4th grade, but wanted to study German for high school credit. He is not a language kid so we skipped any further Latin. His English is streamlined and includes basic literature, grammar, and writing. He has no desire or time for more.

My youngest is strong in narrative, literature, and history but weak in language skills. He is still working on grammar, spelling, and writing. Those need to be the focus for skills work at this point more than Latin, logic, or rhetoric. He will probably take logic at some point due to interests, but basic skills first.

I would have loved to do more of all the WTM subjects with them, but my kids' needs for additional skill work is the priority and determines what we drop. If the boys master the skills and we have time, we'll add in more. But realistically most of that extra time is taken up by chosen activities such as hockey, sports, etc. not more intellectual or academic subjects. And honestly, those activities are more important to me for a healthy overall human being than Latin. 

[8filltheheart]

My kids grow into their studies. When they are little, we do the basics ( reading, writing, math). As they get older, we add in interest studies in science and history. ( knights & castles, Egyptians and pyramids,  nature studies, whatever we want to do).

By late elementary we add in Latin/foreign language. By high school, theology is added, and philosophy might be added if interested.

Don't try to do it all and definitely don't try to do it all at once. Let your homeschool be organic and grow and change with rhythms and flows just like childhood development.

Fwiw, I have been doing it this way since 1994 and my adult kids have really thrived and have found passionate interests that have taken them far.

[Coco_Clark]

7 hours ago, heres_a_llama said:

My family is very early in the process, so I'm trying to wrap my head around something that I'm hoping seasoned pros can help explain to me.

I've read both the 3rd and 4th editions of TWTM. I agree with SWB and JW's ultimate conclusions that no one can follow the schedule they provided in the 4th edition (required by the publisher, is my understanding), that each family will have to prioritize some subjects at the expense of others. I guess I want to know how other families have done that in practice.

When I read the descriptions of curriculum, I want to do everything with my children. When I look at all the work that would involve for me and for them... I hesitate for my sanity and for what is developmentally healthy for each of them. Did you make different choices for each child (child A gets Art and Logic, child B gets Music and Latin) based on their interests or skills, or did you make choices for the entire family (Children A and B are doing Logic and Music) to minimize the planning, shopping, etc required of you? Some other system that hasn't occurred to me yet?

Thanks in advance for the discussion

All of the above, honestly.

Sometimes I make a decision as a family based on value.  Literature is important to me.  No one skimps on that.

Sometimes I make a decision as a family based on hard reality.  They all learn Latin, for example, because I can't possibly teach multiple languages at once.  So Latin it is.  (Until they can learn independently at least).

Sometimes a decision is made for skill reasons.  Either as a family or individually.  I've taken years off grammar for example because I look around and think, "eh, we're good".  Every other year with formal grammar seems to be enough for my goals.  Or my natural spellers, for another example, do much less formal spelling than my kids that struggle in that area.  They simply don't need it.

Or to turn that idea on its head, my great writers do more and longer written narrations than my kids that would rather pull teeth than write a paragraph.  It's too much to ask of them.

And yes, sometimes decisions are based on interest.  I don't push piano on kids that aren't musically inclined, or debate on kids that despise public speaking.  My science led kids do extra science reading and history kids do extra history, but as long as you have a baseline of both I don't fuss to much where you rabbit trail.  

Edited March 27, 2019 by Coco_Clark

[Holly]

I like to put subjects into tiers. 

Tier one has daily "must do" subjects.  At the moment, for us, it includes math, Latin, writing.  Phonics would be included here if I had a younger elementary student.  I can get through these in a couple hours if needed.  So if we have dr. appointments, minor illness, or a co-op field trip, we'll just focus on these.

Tier two includes subjects that need to be done multiple times per week.  Handwriting, literature, spelling, science (for my older kids), history, grammar, etc.  I aim to get to these daily, but I will cut them out if we run out of time.  As long as we get to these 3-4 times per week, I'm happy.  I can usually fit a weeks worth of lessons into fewer days when we need to, so it's not a big deal if we miss a day or two during the week.   

Tier three is our weekly subjects like geography, science (for my younger kids), Bible, composition (younger kids), etc.  These are often dropped, because we can easily get through them at the end of the year.  As other subjects are completed, we have more time to get to these and can make them daily subjects...or drop the workbook pages/assignments/etc. and just read through the material.    

Tier four is the "I'd like to get to these some day" subjects.  Things like art, music/art appreciation, nature studies, projects, etc.  I tend to pick one of these that we focus on at a time, and they usually happen outside of regular school hours.  Currently, we are reading through Much Ado About Nothing before bed.  Next will likely be the Artistic Pursuits program that I spent a small fortune on and haven't touched.   🤣 

Each day, I do a quick run through of what we have going on that day and make a list of which subjects I think we can fit into our plans.  If we haven't gotten to a subject in a couple days or weeks (depending on what tier it's in), I'll make it a priority. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Holly

[hollyhock2]

Start with the basics: math, English, history, science. Those are my four basics. Then think about adding one other thing (or one for each child). So if you want to try Latin, try that. Maybe next year, you'll want to do something else, like geography, or maybe you will be able to add it on alongside. Aside from the basics, not every subject needs to be done every year. Also, not every subject needs to be done every day. For extra things like art and music, which I feel are important but not priorities, we do them once per week. 

So my advice is to start with the fundamentals and work your way up. As your children grow and are interested in things, you can slowly add on according to what you feel is important for them.

[Clemsondana]

We're not WTM followers, but, like many homeschoolers, we've had to make decisions around the fact that you can't do everything.  In the early years, my kids don't switch gears well and feel overwhelmed if they think that they have a long list of things to do.  So, we do our core math, language arts, and handwriting most days but do other subjects as blocks.  We do a month of geography, then 2 months of world history, then a month of science, and then 2 weeks of music appreciation.  In the spring we did a similar routine of science, US history, and art appreciation.  This continued with older through 5th grade, while with younger we made some personality-based changes -  much of the geography is done using a Simply Charlotte Mason program designed to learn one region of the world each year in 15-30 minutes/week.  

We chose do do language at co-op - 2 years in the K-4 ages they took a fun song-and-games based language class to get some exposure to language.  In 5th or 6th grade, they pick a language that they can take in middle/high school (older chose Latin, and I'm guessing younger will pick Friench).  If our co-op situation was different, we'd do language at home, but we have a Latin teacher with years of Latin knowledge and French and Spanish teachers who are native speakers, so in our situation its an easy choice.  

I also look to see what subjects are covered in extracurriculars.  My kids both do art at our co-op from K-4, so we do a bit about artists and types of art at home but don't do much art other than interest led.  Both sang in the kiddie church choir from K-2 and ring handbells from 3-5, so we do a bit of music appreciation at home but they only do more music if they want - one has taken violin lessons for years, while the other has chosen different activities.  

Both of my kids do Science Olympiad, which has also shaped our science plans - we do far more science than I would ever schedule in a traditional school plan.  Once they get to high school, they'll have some traditional science but I'll also work to create full courses out of the subjects that they study for SO.  

[Jackie]

I’ve always played this by ear rather than having a systematic method. 

In the early years, my daughter was a natural reader and speller, so those didn’t need done as formal subjects for us. That opened up a bit of time to fit in other things.

There are subjects covered every year in WTM that I find work best for us as occasional subjects or very lightly hit. Take grammar, for example. I could do this very slowly and incrementally with First Language Lessons, but I knew that wouldn’t fit my daughter at all. Instead, we jumped in with MCT’s grammar, which moves along much faster and with less time commitment, and then we took a break from grammar co pletely because she retained it very well and had enough grammar for elementary level. Logic is another one: we have fun logic workbooks that she worked through at 1-2 pages/week, and play lots of logic-based games, and that’s all we’ve needed until/unless we decide to do formal logic at a much higher level.

Some things are simply interest based. My daughter has no interest in learning Latin, and neither do I. She loves living languages, speaks a second language well, and wants to learn more, but there will be no Latin here outside of some word roots study.

[MerryAtHope]

We did some things the same for both and then allowed for variance based on interests. 

[Hunter]

It is very easy to get distracted away from your priorities. Some people are lucky that there is plenty of time to accomplish their priorities and their priorities are listed in a popular book and they are fully equipped to run down the checklists without any problems. And then there are the rest of us.

We can lose our focus and our confidence, and run around trying to do everything without the resources to do even some of it. And in the end not even remember or know what our priorities are anymore.

What are your strengths? Your resources? Your beliefs? Get centered and grounded, and teach from where you ARE rather than where you have been told that you are "supposed" to be. Make your HOMEschool an extension of YOUR home.

[Ausmumof3]

I tend to pile in too much.  What I do now is “kon mari” school every so often.  We go through and I ask the kids about each curriculum/resource.  Now they generally won’t say any actually bring them joy but I generally get a feel for the ones they really hate.  Then I’ll assess that curriculum piece and figure out whether it’s something they really need - in which case I’ll figure out whether I have the resources to use another curriculum or if we just have to push through and try to survive it. Obviously we can’t kon Mari math but if you hate it we’ll take a different direction for a while and then come back to Singapore.  

For a first base - well trained mind schedules are really really heavy on language arts and grammar to that’s our first thing to go.  My middle dd hasn’t got as wide a vocab as my oldest and she may want to go into medical so I found a fun easy Latin program but my boys are just doing Italian.  For science there was a lot of groaning last year so we’re back to real science odyssey even though it’s my least favourite because the kids enjoy it.  Story of the world is the curriculum that probably brings us actual joy.

We also do “morning time” and I tend to use that as a dumping ground for random fun things we want to do for a bit but not forever, whether it be a read aloud, Shakespeare, some kinda short vocab program or online course.  It’s about an hour a day and I switch stuff in and out to keep it fresh.  I only plan ahead about 6 weeks for that so we can really go with the flow.

lastly our state Ed reqs have 8 key learning areas so I know I have to keep something in to tick each of those boxes.