Crate training a puppy

[Roadrunner]

So here we are, with an adorable puppy, waking up in the morning and playing Where Is Waldo with his poop and pee. I have sort of figured out the potty situation during he day. If I take him outside every hour of so, he happily does it outside. The problem is nighttime. So the crate is on the way, but I have never done this before. Can anybody walk me through the first day schedule with a crate? I think if I can nail the first day, I can probably figure out the rest.

Right now he has a comfy bed in the living room  where he loves to spend time. If I bring in the crate, does this bed need to disappear? Or can he have both? How does his work?

[gardenmom5]

the first day with the crate - during the day, have the door open so he can go in and out.  have a kong - put a rope through it, put peanut butter (or kibble) in it - then tie it to the back of the crate.  you want him to associate the crate with good things/his safe space.  we always had some toys in the crate.

when I have dd's puppy overnight, he sleeps in a crate, I toss a blanket over it so he get's the message - it's night, time to go to sleep.

[Pawz4me]

He can have both. The crate is for nights, when you're away from home, when you're home but too busy to supervise him.

Make it a fun, positive association. Spend some time today treating him with some really high value treats while he's in there (just a few seconds at a time to begin with, then lengthening it out a little). I'd also give him a high value treat when you put him in there tonight.

How old is he? Unless he's several months old already It's likely that he needs at least one potty break during the night. So either plan on that or don't be surprised if he wakes you up whimpering and crying, needing to go. Also, make sure the crate isn't too big or he may decide to go in a corner.

Good luck!

[Roadrunner]

9 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

He can have both. The crate is for nights, when you're away from home, when you're home but too busy to supervise him.

Make it a fun, positive association. Spend some time today treating him with some really high value treats while he's in there (just a few seconds at a time to begin with, then lengthening it out a little). I'd also give him a high value treat when you put him in there tonight.

How old is he? Unless he's several months old already It's likely that he needs at least one potty break during the night. So either plan on that or don't be surprised if he wakes you up whimpering and crying, needing to go. Also, make sure the crate isn't too big or he may decide to go in a corner.

Good luck!

 

What would be a high value treat? This is our first puppy. 

 

He is 8 weeks old. I plan on putting an alarm every 3 hours to walk him outside. 

[Ellie]

Here are a couple of articles that look helpful:

How to Crate Train a Puppy

Puppy Crate Training Made Easy

[Pawz4me]

44 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

What would be a high value treat? This is our first puppy. 

 

He is 8 weeks old. I plan on putting an alarm every 3 hours to walk him outside. 

He gets to determine that -- whatever is high value to him. For some puppies it could be a crunchy dog biscuit, for others it might mean peanut butter, cheese, steak or chicken. My dog is weird--his most high value treat is green bell pepper.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Pawz4me

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

He can have both. The crate is for nights, when you're away from home, when you're home but too busy to supervise him.

Make it a fun, positive association. Spend some time today treating him with some really high value treats while he's in there (just a few seconds at a time to begin with, then lengthening it out a little). I'd also give him a high value treat when you put him in there tonight.

How old is he? Unless he's several months old already It's likely that he needs at least one potty break during the night. So either plan on that or don't be surprised if he wakes you up whimpering and crying, needing to go. Also, make sure the crate isn't too big or he may decide to go in a corner.

Good luck!

most crates will come with a divider so you can partition it off and make is smaller for a small puppy.

(he was 6lbs when brought home.)  dd bought medium crates, and we did that when he was tiny. . . . he's supposed to be a "small/medium" sized dog (he's 17") - the crates have been replaced with large crates so he can stand up.

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 

What would be a high value treat? This is our first puppy. 

 

He is 8 weeks old. I plan on putting an alarm every 3 hours to walk him outside. 

pet stores sell treats - I rec'd soft over crumbly. (they make a mess.)  puppy adores the soft salmon treats. 

good reminder to give treats in the crate.  I'm puppy sitting tonight. (and he had been sleeping on dd's bed. he can jump up by himself.)

 

eta: what they like might change when they have big teeth as opposed to puppy teeth.  especially when he was teething - he always wanted soft fabric to mouth.  they also like chewies cold if their gums are hurting, as it feels good.

Edited January 22, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

most crates will come with a divider so you can partition it off and make is smaller for a small puppy.

(he was 6lbs when brought home.)  dd bought medium crates, and we did that when he was tiny. . . . he's supposed to be a "small/medium" sized dog (he's 17") - the crates have been replaced with large crates so he can stand up.

pet stores sell treats - I rec'd soft over crumbly. (they make a mess.)  puppy adores the soft salmon treats. 

good reminder to give treats in the crate.  I'm puppy sitting tonight. (and he had been sleeping on dd's bed. he can jump up by himself.)

 

i just tried a carrot and he wasn’t interested.  Maybe he will like an apple 🙂

[gardenmom5]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

 

i just tried a carrot and he wasn’t interested.  Maybe he will like an apple 🙂

I haven't known too many dogs that went for vegetables/fruit.  none of mine ever have.  my sister's would eat raspberries off the vine.  My GSD . . . . would steal sandwiches off the counter and spit out the lettuce and tomato.   (she was taught to not jump on the counter.  I saw her do it, she wasn't even touching it with her paws.),

I'd suggest cheese next.  (mozzarella sticks are great as it's easy to break off a piece.)

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

most crates will come with a divider so you can partition it off and make is smaller for a small puppy.

 

Some wire crates come with a divider, but many--probably most--don't. And I've yet to see a hard-sided crate (which is the only type I'll use or own) that comes with one. Or at least they didn't use to. I have approximately one bazillion crates up in the attic in various sizes, so it's been quite a few years since I've had to buy one. It's possible the divider situation has changed.

[gardenmom5]

Just now, Pawz4me said:

 

Some wire crates come with a divider, but many--probably most--don't. And I've yet to see a hard-sided crate (which is the only type I'll use or own) that comes with one. Or at least they didn't use to. I have approximately one bazillion crates up in the attic in various sizes, so it's been quite a few years since I've had to buy one. It's possible the divider situation has changed.

the metal crates can be collapsed for storage, and come with the divider. has a hard plastic bottom, with a cushion to put inside. (dd's choice).   an airline travel crate is different.

[Pawz4me]

31 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

the metal crates can be collapsed for storage, and come with the divider. has a hard plastic bottom, with a cushion to put inside. (dd's choice).   an airline travel crate is different.

FWIW -- "Metal" and "wire" crates are the same thing. Some of the better ones come with dividers; most don't (especially the ones sold at Walmart, Target, etc.). I despise them for many reasons and would never willingly use one myself. Other people like them. That's okay. As long as a crate works for any individual dog and doesn't drive the owner batty then it's good!

Edited January 22, 2019 by Pawz4me

[J-rap]

We didn't used to crate train our dogs, but now we do and it really does come in handy at times.  

Our latest pup (which we kind of share with our dd, who just moved into her first apartment -- long story :)) arrived right before our lives kind of went topsy turvy with lots and lots of health issues for multiple family members.  That poor little pup suddenly was moving from home to home to home.  The constants were my dd or I, and his crate.  Actually, multiple crates because different homes had different crates (some plastic, some metal), but his blanket and things within the crates were always the same.  He spent his first few nights with my dd, in her bed, bonding.  🙂  She'd take him out every hour or two all night.  After that, she moved his blanket to a crate right next to her bed, so she could dangle her arm in there at night.  She also put a kong filled with a little honey in there.  He LOVED the honey treat.  

Now he happily sleeps anywhere in any crate, even in a room by himself, as long as he has his honey kong!  It's like a pacifier for him.  He can go in there lively as can be, and then he begins licking the honey out of the kong and you can see his eyes getting droopier and droopier.

One thing we did -- and others may say this was the wrong thing to do but it happened to work for us!  Our pup was very tiny with a small bladder, and it was just too exhausting to keep getting up with him at night, especially given everything else going on.  So we made a bed in the front half of the crate, and put a puppy pee pad in the back area.  The pee pad has a scent that can attract dogs I guess, and because dogs don't like to pee where they sleep, our pup would walk to the back of the crate to "do his chores" and then walk to the front part of the crate to sleep.  (Yes, it was a rather large crate for his size!)  He never ever peed in his sleep area.

When we started trusting him more and more, we'd put a pee pad near the door while also bringing him outside regularly.  He quickly learned that his pee pad was there and used it if we didn't get him outside in time.  

He's 6 months old now and because my dd lives in an apartment and it's often below 0 outside and he's fairly small, she continues to keep a pee pad by the door (he now sleeps in her bed again and not in his crate), she knows that if he has to get up before she does (she keeps odd hours at work), he'll walk over to his pee pad and use it.  When she's awake, he stands by the door and waits for her to let him out.  

He also has a little bed that he loves, and she sometimes puts it on the foot of her bed, or sometimes keeps it in the living room.  But she also knows that he's completely comfortable sleeping in his crate if necessary.  If she needs to leave him for a long period in the crate, she'll add a pee pad to the back half, but generally he doesn't need it anymore as he gets bigger and can hold his bladder longer.

[Roadrunner]

We ordered online this one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D6XQEAI

he likes green apple. 😂 anything he likes, he drags to his bed. Apple went to his bed and he spent a long time chewing it and eating it. We are so in love with this puppy. Meanwhile no school is getting done. 😋

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

We ordered online this one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D6XQEAI

he likes green apple. 😂 anything he likes, he drags to his bed. Apple went to his bed and he spent a long time chewing it and eating it. We are so in love with this puppy. Meanwhile no school is getting done. 😋

You know we need pictures, right????

ETA: I have two of those Compass crates (different sizes) and have been very happy with them.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Pawz4me

[Roadrunner]

This is him at an adoption place before heading home with us 🙂

 

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Roadrunner

[Lady Florida.]

OMG he is so freakin' adorable! I miss having a dog so much. I can't wait until we move so we can get another one. I don't want to be trying to sell a house while we have a dog. It's bad enough with 2 cats.

Anyway, you got some good advice. Never use the crate as a punishment, always make it a positive thing. Also, choose a word to call it and be consistent. Eventually you should be able to say "doggie, crate" or whatever word you choose, and he'll go in it. We used the word kennel with our crate trained dog and once he was trained we just had to say, "Dingo, kennel" and he would go in the crate.

BTW, what is his name?

[Roadrunner]

Charlie Brown 🙂

[Spy Car]

Have blankets/comforter that you can cover the crate with at times to create a warm and cozy "den" effect. Dogs naturally like their crates as they replicate nature.

 

A covered or partially covered crate add to a pup's sense of security.

3 hours is way too long to keep an 8-week old pup crated.

High value treats = meat. Dogs should not really be fed fruits and vegetables or peanut butter. It isn't natural and it isn't "high-value."

When it is time for a pup to leave crate, head straight outside and give a "command word" for the pup to associate with relieving itself (just as they are about to go) and follow with praise and treats. 

Search the forum for "bite inhibition" training and my screen name for tips on the most important part of a puppy's education.

Good luck!

Bill
 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Spy Car

[Pawz4me]

He's so cute! I love his coloring!

[Roadrunner]

6 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

 

3 hours is way too long to keep an 8-week old pup crated.

High value treats = meat. Dogs should not really be fed fruits and vegetables or peanut butter. It isn't natural and it isn't "high-value."

When it is time for a pup to leave crate, head straight outside and give a "command word" the pup to associate with relieving itself just as they are about to go and follow with praise and treats. 

Search the forum for "bite inhibition" training and my screen name for tips on the most important part of a puppy's education.

Good luck!

Bill
 

 

 

 

Thank you! So should I wait for him to cry to let him out or should I put the timer at every two hours at night? I am preparing for tonight. 🙂

so far he has slept in his bed in the living room at night and peed and pooped anywhere he wished, because we simply didn’t know what to do at night. He didn’t want to stay in the bathroom (cried) where we payed our pads for him. 

i plan on keeping the crate next to my bed so he isn’t alone. 

Should I boil some chicken breast for him? Meet us a broad category. 🙂 Google gives all sorts of conflicting advice. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Roadrunner

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

Thank you! So should I wait for him to cry to let him out or should I put the timer at every two hours at night? I am preparing for tonight. 🙂

so far he has slept in his bed in the living room at night and peed and pooped anywhere he wished, because we simply didn’t know what to do at night. He didn’t want to stay in the bathroom (cried) where we payed our pads for him. 

i plan on keeping the crate next to my bed so he isn’t alone. 

Should I boil some chicken breast for him? Meet us a broad category. 🙂 Google gives all sorts of conflicting advice. 

Sorry,  I misunderstood the three-hour timer was at night. That might work. And if he cries, you will hear him. Pups like to be close.

I'm not a fan of using pee pads inside (as that's a habit to unbreak). The key to good dog training is never to reward behaviors in a pup that you would not relish in a large dog.

Boiled chicken breast is a fine treat. Any meat is good. 

Bill

 

[Pawz4me]

55 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

Thank you! So should I wait for him to cry to let him out or should I put the timer at every two hours at night? I am preparing for tonight. 🙂

so far he has slept in his bed in the living room at night and peed and pooped anywhere he wished, because we simply didn’t know what to do at night. He didn’t want to stay in the bathroom (cried) where we payed our pads for him. 

i plan on keeping the crate next to my bed so he isn’t alone. 

Should I boil some chicken breast for him? Meet us a broad category. 🙂 Google gives all sorts of conflicting advice. 

Again -- let the pup decide what is high value to him. Don't let Google or any person lead you astray in this area, lest it make training harder than it has to be. It doesn't matter what anyone says is "good" or "not good." Charlie Brown doesn't know the person and certainly doesn't care about their opinion, doesn't care about any study cited, etc. He knows what he likes. Now does that mean you should feed him Oreos or potato chips or any other junk food? Of course not. But for the most part any food that's healthy for humans is also healthy for dogs (other than the obvious no nos for dogs like onions and garlic, of course). That said, most dogs do find any sort of meat to be at least relatively high value.

But truly--Don't shoot yourself in the foot and make training harder than it has to be. Respect the dog. If I'd tried to train my current dog with boiled chicken or even steak I'd have a very untrained seven year old dog rather than the well mannered, joy-to-be-around one that he is. He doesn't find meat anywhere near as appealing as many veggies. I had a previous dog who thought fruit (particularly melon) was the highest value thing in the world. I've had several fosters who found other foods higher value than meat.

If you use commercial training treats be careful with any that contain liver. Too much of that can cause diarrhea.

Three hours isn't too long for even a young puppy to go between potty breaks at night (not during the day, though). How you handle it depends somewhat on your own sleep habits. I'm a light sleeper so I always let dogs wake me when they need to go. If you're a heavy sleeper it might work better to set an alarm. Like most things with dog training, there's a range of opinion and no true right or wrong. I tend to think letting the puppy determine the schedule (within reason) is more likely to result in a more quickly trained dog. I don't want to arbitrarily decide on a two/three/whatever hour schedule if the pup can go longer than that, and I don't want to get the dog used to a set schedule that I decided on. But again--there are various ways to handle this. You'll figure out what works best for CB and you.

ETA: And don't get overly fixated on food as the ONLY high value training treat, either. Some puppies aren't food motivated and find a toy or praise/petting higher value than food. You just have to figure out what works for the individual dog.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Pawz4me

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Again -- let the pup decide what is high value to him. Don't let Google or any person lead you astray in this area, lest it make training harder than it has to be. It doesn't matter what anyone says is "good" or "not good." Charlie Brown doesn't know the person and certainly doesn't care about their opinion, doesn't care about any study cited, etc. He knows what he likes. Now does that mean you should feed him Oreos or potato chips or any other junk food? Of course not. But for the most part any food that's healthy for humans is also healthy for dogs (other than the obvious no nos for dogs like onions and garlic, of course). That said, most dogs do find any sort of meat to be at least relatively high value.

But truly--Don't shoot yourself in the foot and make training harder than it has to be. Respect the dog. If I'd tried to train my current dog with boiled chicken or even steak I'd have a very untrained seven year old dog rather than the well mannered, joy-to-be-around one that he is. He doesn't find meat anywhere near as appealing as many veggies. I had a previous dog who thought fruit (particularly melon) was the highest value thing in the world. I've had several fosters who found other foods higher value than meat.

If you use commercial training treats be careful with any that contain liver. Too much of that can cause diarrhea.

Three hours isn't too long for even a young puppy to go between potty breaks at night (not during the day, though). How you handle it depends somewhat on your own sleep habits. I'm a light sleeper so I always let dogs wake me when they need to go. If you're a heavy sleeper it might work better to set an alarm. Like most things with dog training, there's a range of opinion and no true right or wrong. I tend to think letting the puppy determine the schedule (within reason) is more likely to result in a more quickly trained dog. I don't want to arbitrarily decide on a two/three/whatever hour schedule if the pup can go longer than that, and I don't want to get the dog used to a set schedule that I decided on. But again--there are various ways to handle this. You'll figure out what works best for CB and you.

You are advising Roadrunner not to let people lead her astray, yet you suggest things like peanut butter, fruits, and vegetables are OK treats for baby carnivores. That's just not correct.

Dogs are not human beings and do not have the same nutritional needs as a species that our species has. Suggesting otherwise is a fallacy. 

Training treats are easy: use meat!

Nothing is higher in value to dogs, either in being a reward or in providing the nutrition they need to develop properly. Carrots and apples have nothing puppies require to thrive. These are not species appropriate treats not is peanut butter. 

A pup may be able to go 3 hours at night. Three hours during the day at 8-weeks is unlikely.

Bill

 

 

 

 

[Roadrunner]

It’s like bringing a newborn home 🙂

[ktgrok]

Regarding treats - does he like his kibble? If so, feed a portion of  it as treats during the day, and the rest stuffed in kong toys or puzzle balls. He's got to eat anyway, might as well have him "earn" it with going in and out of the crate. Now, if he doesn't like his kibble enough you can raise the ante with better treats. 

I'd put his bed IN the crate, so it becomes his comfy spot. Say "kennel up" and toss a yummy treat in. Once he goes in tell him "yes!" or "Good!" and give him a few more. Then have him come out and repeat. When you are not supervising him, he can hang out in the crate with a stuffed kong, chew bone, etc. I like to keep the crate in whatever room people are in most of the time, if possible, and have been known to move a small puppy's crate from the bedroom at night to the family room during the day until they are happier in the crate. 

[Spy Car]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

It’s like bringing a newborn home 🙂

Kinda. And one hopefully feels newborns what nature intended. Not processed junk food or a species inappropriate snacks.

It is pretty basic.

Bill

[Spy Car]

Kibble is a cereal-based food. It is a low-value food (in all regards) and is the antithesis of rewarding a pup with a high-value treat.

Nothing special there. Meat is a high-value treat.

Bill

[ktgrok]

Meh, my kids have had tater tots, and my dog has had pizza crusts, and they both liked it 🙂

We don't have to eat perfectly all the time and neither do our dogs. They survived for many generations on oats and bread and milk with the occasional blood or organ. (typical diet of royal hounds). Raw prey may be the natural diet of dogs, but I'm not going to deny a dog a kong with some peanut butter in it out of a sense of righteousness. 

 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Spy Car said:

Kibble is a cereal-based food. It is a low-value food (in all regards) and is the antithesis of rewarding a pup with a high-value treat.

Nothing special there. Meat is a high-value treat.

Bill

Truth, but assuming she doesn't plan on feeding only meat, kibble will likely be a large portion of the diet. Rather than adding TO the diet and making puppy pudgy it makes sense to use some of it's daily food as a reward. Even trainers that feed raw themselves and advocate for it will often have a training client use mostly kibble for a month or two while training for that reason - not convenient or practical to keep raw hamburger all over the house or in your pockets while training. 

[Spy Car]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

Meh, my kids have had tater tots, and my dog has had pizza crusts, and they both liked it 🙂

We don't have to eat perfectly all the time and neither do our dogs. They survived for many generations on oats and bread and milk with the occasional blood or organ. (typical diet of royal hounds). Raw prey may be the natural diet of dogs, but I'm not going to deny a dog a kong with some peanut butter in it out of a sense of righteousness. 

 

It isn't about "righteousness," it is about promoting good health and vitality in young dogs. If you want to advocate for feeding puppies and human babies junk food then we won't see eye-to-eye about this issue.

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Truth, but assuming she doesn't plan on feeding only meat, kibble will likely be a large portion of the diet. Rather than adding TO the diet and making puppy pudgy it makes sense to use some of it's daily food as a reward. Even trainers that feed raw themselves and advocate for it will often have a training client use mostly kibble for a month or two while training for that reason - not convenient or practical to keep raw hamburger all over the house or in your pockets while training. 

The reason one makes training treats high-value is to reward desired behaviors. Low-value treats are not much of a reward.

Using low-value treats undermines training objectives relative to high-value treats. It isn't rocket science.

Motivate pups with what they love (and need): Meat!

Bill

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Spy Car

[Pawz4me]

16 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

You are advising Roadrunner not to let people lead her astray, yet you suggest things like peanut butter, fruits, and vegetables are OK treats for baby carnivores. That's just not correct.

Dogs are not human beings and do not have the same nutritional needs as a species that our species has. Suggesting otherwise is a fallacy. 

Training treats are easy: use meat!

Nothing is higher in value to dogs, either in being a reward or in providing the nutrition they need to develop properly. Carrots and apples have nothing puppies require to thrive. These are not species appropriate treats not is peanut butter. 

A pup may be able to go 3 hours at night. Three hours during the day at 8-weeks is unlikely.

Bill

 

 

 

 

Bill, you and I can go around and around on this yet again if you want to. I'll be more than happy to play "match the research study" with you on whether or not dogs are carnivores. I guarantee that I can counter anything you post. But I don't think that will help Roadrunner. I feel confident that she can decide whether you know best what her dog will work for or whether it would be best to let him tell her that.

[madteaparty]

3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 

i just tried a carrot and he wasn’t interested.  Maybe he will like an apple 🙂

Try prosciutto. This is not a deer. 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Bill, you and I can go around and around on this yet again if you want to. I'll be more than happy to play "match the research study" with you on whether or not dogs are carnivores. I guarantee that I can counter anything you post. But I don't think that will help Roadrunner. I feel confident that she can decide whether you know best what her dog will work for or whether it would be best to let him tell her that.

Dogs certainly are carnivores. Look at their dentition. No grinding molars. And they do not produce salivary amylase (the enzyme needed to digest starches). The National Research Council (the leading authority on canine nutrition) says that dogs have no essential needs for carbohydrates.

When dogs are fed high-carb ratios their energy and stamina always suffers greatly. You can't find medical literature to dispute that fact. The modern kibble diet is unnatural for digs and does harm.

In any case, the issue at hand is training treats. Roadrunner would do well to use high-value training treats. That means meat.

Bill

[Roadrunner]

So far he came home with his own food. He has had a lot of excitement - long car drive, new people, new home, squirrels, a fight with a lizard.... strange sounds from piano... so we have kept the food the same until this little pup is adjusted to everything else. 

I don’t have any need to have him in a crate during the day. We are home, and if we leave for a bit, he can come with us. It’s the night that we are facing the issue. During the day I get him out every hour, basically as soon as he is done napping. And all the animals love my deck. Do you remember the bees that appeared out of nowhere to temporarily settle on the wall? So south facing warm wall/deck is the reason. This little one has also discovered the wonders of sunny deck. 🙂

my cousin, who has had many dogs, insists the puppies need to be fed oatmeal. 🙂 I think right now we need to figure out the night situation/crate, and then we will deal with food choices. Goal for the next week is not to induce diarrhea. 🙂  

Edited January 22, 2019 by Roadrunner

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

So far he came home with his own food. He has had a lot of excitement - long car drive, new people, new home, squirrels, a fight with a lizard.... strange sounds from piano... so we have kept the food the same until this little pup is adjusted to everything else. 

I don’t have any need to have him in a crate during the day. We are home, and if we live for a bit, he can come with us. It’s the night that we are facing the issue. During the day I get him out every hour, basically as soon as he is done napping. And all the animals love my deck. Do you remember the bees that appeared out of nowhere to temporarily settle on the wall? So south facing warm wall/deck is the reason. This little one has also discovered the wonders of sunny deck. 🙂

my cousin, who has had many dogs, insists the puppies need to be fed oatmeal. 🙂 I think right now we need to figure out the night situation/crate, and then we will deal with food choices. Goal for the next week is not to induce diarrhea. 🙂  

Has this cousin of yours ever been right about anything? 

Bill

[Roadrunner]

8 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Has this cousin of yours ever been right about anything? 

Bill

I don’t mess with it. Different culture, across the ocean, it is what it is. 😉 

 

Just adding that dry dry food is a new thing in stores for them. They are used to feeding them “human food” and you can imagine in a poor country beef wouldn’t be on the menu every day. 😞

Edited January 22, 2019 by Roadrunner

[Spy Car]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

I don’t mess with it. Different culture, across the ocean, it is what it is. 😉 

Say no more.

At this age, lots of small meals (vs fewer big ones) are easiest on a pup's system. Pups need adequate food but don't buy into the idea that puppies need to be rotund. Slow and steady growth is best. Overfeeding is one biggest causes of diarrhea in pups.

Bill

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

It isn't about "righteousness," it is about promoting good health and vitality in young dogs. If you want to advocate for feeding puppies and human babies junk food then we won't see eye-to-eye about this issue.

Bill

 

Well, I seem to remember you posting about stopping for a burger with your son once, so I'm betting that you are not a no junk food person with humans. And just like a fast food meal won't kill a teen, a training treat won't kill a puppy. Sometimes it's just nice. 

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

The reason one makes training treats high-value is to reward desired behaviors. Low-value treats are not much of a reward.

Using low-value treats undermines training objectives relative to high-value treats. It isn't rocket science.

Motivate pups with what they love (and need): Meat!

Bill

 

Like I said, it depends on the dog. For many young puppies kibble is plenty high enough of a reward, I trained my neighbor's great dane with kibble with great success. That dog was a kibble eater - it was going to get kibble wether as treats or as a meal. Might as well do it during training rather than dumped in a bowl later, if it was going to get it either way and was happy to work for it. My border collie will work for kibble, carrots, probably sawdust I'd bet. His FAVORITE food in the world is frosted shredded wheat. I'll be sure to tell him he's wrong, and he should prefer meat, but I don't think he will care what you say, lol. He gets it once in a blue moon, as I buy that cereal only a few times a year, but he goes nuts for it. Go figure. Meanwhile my hound has been known to turn down liver, chicken, etc depending on his mood. He definitely won't work for his normal kibble (which is usually supplemented with raw, but not always), although he will RARELY condescend to eat a dry treat if out and about and someone offers him one. More to be polite I think than anything. His favorite is smoked turkey deli meat but often he'd rather a bit of a rub down than food. He doesn't particularly care for raw meat at all, by the way and like most dogs prefers cooked food. What is a high value treat  just depends on the dog. 

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Well, I seem to remember you posting about stopping for a burger with your son once, so I'm betting that you are not a no junk food person with humans. And just like a fast food meal won't kill a teen, a training treat won't kill a puppy. Sometimes it's just nice. 

Like I said, it depends on the dog. For many young puppies kibble is plenty high enough of a reward, I trained my neighbor's great dane with kibble with great success. That dog was a kibble eater - it was going to get kibble wether as treats or as a meal. Might as well do it during training rather than dumped in a bowl later, if it was going to get it either way and was happy to work for it. My border collie will work for kibble, carrots, probably sawdust I'd bet. His FAVORITE food in the world is frosted shredded wheat. I'll be sure to tell him he's wrong, and he should prefer meat, but I don't think he will care what you say, lol. He gets it once in a blue moon, as I buy that cereal only a few times a year, but he goes nuts for it. Go figure. Meanwhile my hound has been known to turn down liver, chicken, etc depending on his mood. He definitely won't work for his normal kibble (which is usually supplemented with raw, but not always), although he will RARELY condescend to eat a dry treat if out and about and someone offers him one. More to be polite I think than anything. His favorite is smoked turkey deli meat but often he'd rather a bit of a rub down than food. He doesn't particularly care for raw meat at all, by the way and like most dogs prefers cooked food. What is a high value treat  just depends on the dog. 

Species inappropriate treats are not "nice." And low-value treats lower the reward for good behavior that high-value treats are used to encourage.

If pups/dogs get kibble as their regular meal then giving them kibble as a "reward" doesn't mean much. It is the same-old-same-old.

Feed sugar smacks if that's your will, but I'd caution Roadrunner to use a different approach with her 8-week old.

Bill

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

48 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Species inappropriate treats are not "nice." And low-value treats lower the reward for good behavior that high-value treats are used to encourage.

If pups/dogs get kibble as their regular meal then giving them kibble as a "reward" doesn't mean much. It is the same-old-same-old.

Feed sugar smacks if that's your will, but I'd caution Roadrunner to use a different approach with her 8-week old.

Bill

 

 

 

 

I think that's where the confusion is. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, instead of a regular meal, give most of the kibble during training. Not on top of the regular meal, but instead of. Now, if you have a difficult behavior and a dog that doesn't work for kibble, fine. But the average 8 week old puppy is perfectly happy to bend over backwards for their regular kibble. If all/most of their food intake is during training sessions, than they think it is a treat. Now, if the dog won't work for kibble, find something else. But it's a good place to start, and if you measure out the dog's daily food and use it for treats all day, then you don't risk feeding the dog all the calories it needs during meals and then on top of that every family member giving half again that amount of calories in treats, leading to obese puppies who grow too fast and too fat. 

Now, and older dog likely won't work for their kibble in the same way, unless you ONLY feed during training. And even then, maybe not. But an 8 week old puppy? He's only been eating kibble for a few weeks - to him it's still new and fun. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Ktgrok

[ktgrok]

OP, if you want the dog to be in the crate at night and when you are not home you also need to use it when you ARE home, and in the same room. otherwise the dog associates the crate with you being gone. You want it to be where the dog feels relaxed and it won't if it is only put in there when you leave, etc. 

[Spy Car]

29 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think that's where the confusion is. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, instead of a regular meal, give most of the kibble during training. Not on top of the regular meal, but instead of. Now, if you have a difficult behavior and a dog that doesn't work for kibble, fine. But the average 8 week old puppy is perfectly happy to bend over backwards for their regular kibble. If all/most of their food intake is during training sessions, than they think it is a treat. Now, if the dog won't work for kibble, find something else. But it's a good place to start, and if you measure out the dog's daily food and use it for treats all day, then you don't risk feeding the dog all the calories it needs during meals and then on top of that every family member giving half again that amount of calories in treats, leading to obese puppies who grow too fast and too fat. 

Now, and older dog likely won't work for their kibble in the same way, unless you ONLY feed during training. And even then, maybe not. But an 8 week old puppy? He's only been eating kibble for a few weeks - to him it's still new and fun. 

I have no issues with making a pup work for food. And hand feeding is good for developing the bonds between a young pup and a human.

I'd rather feed higher-value food than kibble. And especially for training purposes.

Bill

 

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

I have no issues with making a pup work for food. And hand feeding is good for developing the bonds between a young pup and a human.

I'd rather feed higher-value food than kibble. And especially for training purposes.

Bill

 

 

That's a diet change topic though, not a training topic. My whole point was use the dog's daily food. The dog's food is currently kibble. Therefore, use kibble for training, instead of plopping it in a bowl. 

[Spy Car]

54 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

That's a diet change topic though, not a training topic. My whole point was use the dog's daily food. The dog's food is currently kibble. Therefore, use kibble for training, instead of plopping it in a bowl. 

Not really. I'd use high-value treats for training even if I were feeding a kibble based food otherwise. On getting dogs to work for food, I agree.

There: common ground.

Bill

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Not really. I'd use high-value treats for training even if I were feeding a kibble based food otherwise. On getting dogs to work for food, I agree.

There: common ground.

Bill

But if they are working for their food, it means their food. Not something separate. Maybe we just disagree on "high value"....the dog determines that, and like I said, I've known a TON of 8 week old puppies who will move heaven and earth for kibble. To them, if they have not had anything else, and kibble is still novel, it IS high value. If they are blowing you off and don't want to work for it, than no, it isn't high value and you need to use something else. On that we agree. 

Says the woman who was thawing chicken parts for her dogs dinner today, meanwhile the humans ate pizza 🙂

Edited January 23, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Spy Car]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

But if they are working for their food, it means their food. Not something separate. Maybe we just disagree on "high value"....the dog determines that, and like I said, I've known a TON of 8 week old puppies who will move heaven and earth for kibble. To them, if they have not had anything else, and kibble is still novel, it IS high value. If they are blowing you off and don't want to work for it, than no, it isn't high value and you need to use something else. On that we agree. 

Says the woman who was thawing chicken parts for her dog today. 

Meat is food. Kibble is substandard. Poor quality food.

Meat vs kibble isn't a close call in terms of which is high-value.

Bill

[ktgrok]

Just now, Spy Car said:

Meat is food. Kibble is substandard. Poor quality food.

Meat vs kibble isn't a close call in terms of which is high-value.

Bill

But she's not feeding meat as the dogs food. She's feeding kibble. So if she is going to give, say 400 calories of kibble a day, use most of it during training instead of dumping it in a bowl. Now, if she was feeding homemade or raw she'd use that for training. 

 

[Spy Car]

25 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

But she's not feeding meat as the dogs food. She's feeding kibble. So if she is going to give, say 400 calories of kibble a day, use most of it during training instead of dumping it in a bowl. Now, if she was feeding homemade or raw she'd use that for training. 

 

Circular reasoning. If the treats are nutritious high-value rewards the dogs is working for food. Good food. Working for kibble is also working for "food" just less nutritious food and a lower-value reward (which can undermine good training).

Bill