Would You Expect Your DH to Say Something?

[unsinkable]

16 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Yes, referring to the MIL.  

 

I explained why I said "those" to acknowledge that you plus others were saying that.  You can choose not to believe that, but that is the reason.  

Here is what I said about the MIL's comment:

In my mind, someone DID ask about DIL being included and the response (in the moment, before another, "better sounding" response could be concocted) was a comment about race.  It wouldn't matter to me at this point what other reasoning was offered, because I don't see a way what came out of her mouth would have come out of her mouth if race was not an issue somewhere in there.  Whether that means the feelings are hers, or the feelings are her relatives and she doesn't want to deal with it.  She was asked, and that is what came out.  

That does not mean to me that MIL is racist.  I don't think that anyone who makes a racist comment, or a comment with racist connotations, is a racist. I mentioned that the issue might be her relatives or friends, and she just doesn't want to deal with it or confront it. I really don't know if MIL is racist.  I would guess she probably has some issues about race in her brain, either herself, or within the relatives.  I don't have any idea what those issues are.  Her comment was racist and inappropriate.  Suggesting that a whole state is prejudiced against black people and that somehow applies to Mexican DIL (because that is who the question was about) is racist and inappropriate.  Whether she meant it that way, doesn't feel that way at all, feels that way subconsciously, or feels that way consciously, I have no idea. 

Regarding your last comment, I will say again: I read comments on their merit regardless of who is posting them.  I don't want to discount something that might have value based on how often I previously agreed with who is posting it.  

 

So the MIL made a racist comment but as far as you know, she is not a racist. Some of the comments you've endorsed do go right up to the line say the comments were made because of racism. So racist comments made because racism but she is not a racist.

Do I have that right?

 

[ktgrok]

14 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

I would hope dh would speak up and say something, but he never would. He would never confront his mother about anything, including deliberate exclusion of our children. She threw a fit outside my hospital room, demanding to know what I had, so she could leave and see her "real grandchildren". (Her words) I can only imagine her comments if she had met my one sil, a Colombian. She was a piece of work. 

I was brought up to believe that you didn't bring up parties, trips, etc. in front of people who weren't invited. You SURE didn't plan the next one in front of someone not invited!

exactly. Basic manners. 

1 hour ago, unsinkable said:

You deleted a specific question I asked you in my post. Why did you do that? If anything, it's odd that you want to ask me all sorts of questions but can't even acknowledge a yes or no question I asked you.

 "Sorry I didn't mention you directly" No need to apologize ( though that is not really an apology). It is telling that when you were talking to ME you didn't acknowledge that I had actually said that. It's like you wanted to ignore that fact I want a follow-up bc it doesn't fit your interpretation of my posts.

Regarding the bolded: your posts seemed to indicate to me that the MIL's statement (they're racist in ny against blacks) that you think the MIL is racist. That is what I meant by the bolded. Is that not true? Did I misunderstand you? Do you or do you not think the MIL is racist based on that statement that she made? (They're racist in NY against blacks)

I didn't say you harbored had feelings. I said you've previously said you usually don't agree with me at all and IMO that is causing you to not read what I am saying correctly. I think you're going into it thinking you're not going to agree with me and your responses show.

What you quoted is an apology. "I'm sorry for ______" is an apology. And as for her shortening what she quoted, we all do that all the time on here..well most of us do. To the point where on many boards it is considered poor ettiquitte not to do so, because it makes everything too long. But either way, she apologized. 

And no matter if MIL is racist or not, she obviously doesn't hav ea great reason for not inviting DIL, because she was flat out asked about including DIL and her only response was that New Yorkers are racist. She had a chance to explain why she didn't invite the woman, and gave a nonsensical reason. So yeah, racist or not, she's being rude to invite someone to something right in front of someone she is excluding, which I think was the point of the OP. 

[goldberry]

7 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

So the MIL made a racist comment but as far as you know, she is not a racist. Some of the comments you've endorsed do go right up to the line say the comments were made because of racism. So racist comments made because racism but she is not a racist.

Do I have that right?

 

 

I think I stated it pretty clearly. What was unclear? Or is your question meant as snark/sarcasm?   Because I don't plan on continuing to try to explain it.

41 minutes ago, goldberry said:

  I don't think that anyone who makes a racist comment, or a comment with racist connotations, is a racist.

 

Are you suggesting that a person can say something racist but as long as they don't mean it that way the comment was not racist?  Because that's the only other option.  Actual words do not change because of someone's intentions or inward thoughts.  Words are words.  

[Farrar]

9 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

So the MIL made a racist comment but as far as you know, she is not a racist. Some of the comments you've endorsed do go right up to the line say the comments were made because of racism. So racist comments made because racism but she is not a racist.

Do I have that right?

 

I think there are some different conceptions of what "a racist" is. There's quite a continuum between people who donate money to or attend rallies held by neo-Nazi groups and people who have unconscious bias (which is basically everyone) because we've all been raised in a racist society.

I think what many of us are saying is that this MIL is unlikely to be the first sort of racist. People can make racist comments, not realize they're being racist. Are they "racists"? Depends on how you define it. Making racist comments, even unintentionally, perpetuates racism. But it's not like she's masterminding a racist family or anything.

[unsinkable]

1 minute ago, goldberry said:

 

I think I stated it pretty clearly. What was unclear? Or is your question meant as snark/sarcasm?   Because I don't plan on continuing to try to explain it.

 

Are you suggesting that a person can say something racist but as long as they don't mean it that way the comment was not racist?  Because that's the only other option.  Actual words do not change because of someone's intentions or inward thoughts.  Words are words.  

No, it is not snark or sarcasm at all. But I want to make sure I'm clear since you said I wasn't reading you correctly. I wanted to give you a chance to correct me if I had it wrong.

Re: second paragraph I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm not sure where I said anything that would lead you to say that. Again: IMO, the MIL's comment was odd and out of context and makes me wary. I'd want a follow-up question. 

 

[unsinkable]

11 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

exactly. Basic manners. 

What you quoted is an apology. "I'm sorry for ______" is an apology. And as for her shortening what she quoted, we all do that all the time on here..well most of us do. To the point where on many boards it is considered poor ettiquitte not to do so, because it makes everything too long. But either way, she apologized. 

And no matter if MIL is racist or not, she obviously doesn't hav ea great reason for not inviting DIL, because she was flat out asked about including DIL and her only response was that New Yorkers are racist. She had a chance to explain why she didn't invite the woman, and gave a nonsensical reason. So yeah, racist or not, she's being rude to invite someone to something right in front of someone she is excluding, which I think was the point of the OP. 

Goldberry did NOT say "I'm sorry for ----" 

She said, "Sorry I didn't mention you directly I guess?   "

 Those are two completely different statements, from someone who keeps telling me "words are words" so I think words are pretty darn important to her. First, there was no subject (I'm sorry). Second, the "I guess" and ? negates the "sorry." If one doesn't know why she is apologizing, then it is not an apology.

As for your second paragraph...I didn't bring up the racial angle. 

[goldberry]

1 minute ago, unsinkable said:

No, it is not snark or sarcasm at all. But I want to make sure I'm clear since you said I wasn't reading you correctly. I wanted to give you a chance to correct me if I had it wrong.

Re: second paragraph I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm not sure where I said anything that would lead you to say that. Again: IMO, the MIL's comment was odd and out of context and makes me wary. I'd want a follow-up question. 

 

 

You seemed to suggest it was absurd (or I needed a chance to correct myself) that I can say someone said something racist but is not a racist.  If you think that is absurd or needs correcting, then either saying something racist makes someone a racist (which I would imagine you don't believe, but who really knows at this point...)  OR someone who is NOT a racist can't say something racist because that is not the way they intend it.  

Her comment was odd and out of context.  And it was racist, whether she intended it that way or not.  Her explanations might make me feel better about MIL but do not change that the comment was racist and inappropriate.  I don't understand why this is difficult to grasp.  It's not like every single one of us hasn't said stupid things in our lifetimes.  That doesn't make us all "idiots" and neither does it excuse the stupid things we have said.

[unsinkable]

13 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I think there are some different conceptions of what "a racist" is. There's quite a continuum between people who donate money to or attend rallies held by neo-Nazi groups and people who have unconscious bias (which is basically everyone) because we've all been raised in a racist society.

I think what many of us are saying is that this MIL is unlikely to be the first sort of racist. People can make racist comments, not realize they're being racist. Are they "racists"? Depends on how you define it. Making racist comments, even unintentionally, perpetuates racism. But it's not like she's masterminding a racist family or anything.

So to pull in a few different statement from other posts:

The MIL made a racist statement, based on racism. That statement was the reason she gave DIL not going on a trip to NY.

So she made a racist statement, based on racism and seemed to have acted on the racist statement by not including the DIL in the trip.

Is that correct?

[unsinkable]

5 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

You seemed to suggest it was absurd (or I needed a chance to correct myself) that I can say someone said something racist but is not a racist.  If you think that is absurd or needs correcting, then either saying something racist makes someone a racist (which I would imagine you don't believe, but who really knows at this point...)  OR someone who is NOT a racist can't say something racist because that is not the way they intend it.  

Her comment was odd and out of context.  And it was racist, whether she intended it that way or not.  Her explanations might make me feel better about MIL but do not change that the comment was racist and inappropriate.  I don't understand why this is difficult to grasp.  It's not like every single one of us hasn't said stupid things in our lifetimes.  That doesn't make us all "idiots" and neither does it excuse the stupid things we have said.

No, I didn't say it was absurd or imply that. I did straight out say, "But I want to make sure I'm clear since you said I wasn't reading you correctly. I wanted to give you a chance to correct me if I had it wrong." And that is what I meant.

I don't know where all the talk of saying stupid things and idiots came from. I've not used those words in this thread. It is particularly concerning to me that you put it in quotes because I didn't say it.

[goldberry]

4 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

No, I didn't say it was absurd or imply that. I did straight out say, "But I want to make sure I'm clear since you said I wasn't reading you correctly. I wanted to give you a chance to correct me if I had it wrong." And that is what I meant.

I don't know where all the talk of saying stupid things and idiots came from. I've not used those words in this thread. It is particularly concerning to me that you put it in quotes because I didn't say it.

 

Not everything is about you or a slight on you.  Really.  I'm not going to try to explain, because I think most people understood exactly what I meant, and you would probably just take my explanation as further evidence of...whatever it is you think is happening here.  No more fuel for the fire...

 

[ktgrok]

22 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

Goldberry did NOT say "I'm sorry for ----" 

She said, "Sorry I didn't mention you directly I guess?   "

 Those are two completely different statements, from someone who keeps telling me "words are words" so I think words are pretty darn important to her. First, there was no subject (I'm sorry). Second, the "I guess" and ? negates the "sorry." If one doesn't know why she is apologizing, then it is not an apology.

As for your second paragraph...I didn't bring up the racial angle. 

I was quoting you, and bolded the part I was referring to. It did have a subject (the word I) and didn't have the "I guess" part. Based on what you wrote, it was an apology. So if you misquoted her, that's where the confusion came in. 

Either way, back to the original point, it's yucky to overtly favor one family member over another, and rude to invite people to things in front of others you are not inviting. 

[unsinkable]

2 hours ago, unsinkable said:

You deleted a specific question I asked you in my post. Why did you do that? If anything, it's odd that you want to ask me all sorts of questions but can't even acknowledge a yes or no question I asked you.

 "Sorry I didn't mention you directly" No need to apologize ( though that is not really an apology). It is telling that when you were talking to ME you didn't acknowledge that I had actually said that. It's like you wanted to ignore that fact I want a follow-up bc it doesn't fit your interpretation of my posts.

Regarding the bolded: your posts seemed to indicate to me that the MIL's statement (they're racist in ny against blacks) that you think the MIL is racist. That is what I meant by the bolded. Is that not true? Did I misunderstand you? Do you or do you not think the MIL is racist based on that statement that she made? (They're racist in NY against blacks)

I didn't say you harbored had feelings. I said you've previously said you usually don't agree with me at all and IMO that is causing you to not read what I am saying correctly. I think you're going into it thinking you're not going to agree with me and your responses show.

 

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I was quoting you, and bolded the part I was referring to. It did have a subject (the word I) and didn't have the "I guess" part. Based on what you wrote, it was an apology. So if you misquoted her, that's where the confusion came in. 

Either way, back to the original point, it's yucky to overtly favor one family member over another, and rude to invite people to things in front of others you are not inviting. 

There is my original quote of Goldberry's quote. There is no *I or I'm* included bc there was no *I or I'm* in her original statement to me. I did leave off the "I guess?" But neither her quote nor reference to her quote had the I or I'm.

[Farrar]

14 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

So to pull in a few different statement from other posts:

The MIL made a racist statement, based on racism. That statement was the reason she gave DIL not going on a trip to NY.

So she made a racist statement, based on racism and seemed to have acted on the racist statement by not including the DIL in the trip.

Is that correct?

Basically, though as I said above, some of this depends on your definition of racism. But, yes, this is how I'd put it if you define unintentional bias as racism, which I do. 

I have to admit that I'm not totally sure what you're trying to clarify or if there's something you're trying to point out in the above that I'm missing. I have a feeling, though I hope I'm wrong, that your next response is going to be "gotcha in this logical fallacy" or something along those lines.

Whether making such a statement and seeming to base decisions on it makes her "a racist" is also up to the way you want to define things. Some people would say, she didn't intend to be racist and likely doesn't recognize that her remark was racist or had the effect of perpetuating racism therefore, she's not a racist. According to this line of thinking, you can't accidentally "hate" other races and unintentional bias, no matter how blatant, isn't racism, it's unintentional bias. Other people would say, who cares if she meant to be racist or not. The statement was racist, she made the decision to exclude this DIL based at least partly on race. Therefore, she's a racist.

Into this, we could also toss some other conversations. Does committing an act of racism make one "a racist"? I mean, does doing a bit art make one "an artist"? I don't know. There may be a distinction between one act and truly embodying an idea. And there's the conversation about whether it's fruitful to call white people racist or not - especially "nice" people like this MIL who likely aren't intending to be racist or exclusionary at all. It just raises everyone's hackles. It makes people feel like the conversation is shut down (though I'll reiterate that I don't agree with that, but that's the emotional feeling that many people have). It puts people on the defensive, which isn't good for getting them to listen. But then if you don't use clear words, how do you make people see that things that didn't intend can still cause harm or further racism? I don't think these have easy answers.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

 

There is my original quote of Goldberry's quote. There is no *I or I'm* included bc there was no *I or I'm* in her original statement to me. I did leave off the "I guess?" But neither her quote nor reference to her quote had the I or I'm.

"Sorry I didn't mention you directly" is what you quoted her as saying. The second word is "I". 

[unsinkable]

7 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

Not everything is about you or a slight on you.  Really.  I'm not going to try to explain, because I think most people understood exactly what I meant, and you would probably just take my explanation as further evidence of...whatever it is you think is happening here.  No more fuel for the fire...

 

You're talking to me, though, so when you're talking to me and put a word in quotes like that it does seem to imply that the word (idiot) had been previously used by the other person (in this case, me). 

I'm glad you think most people understand that I never said the word idiot. That's reassuring bc I don't like to judge people by their intelligence. Or their race. Or gender. Or sexuality. 

 

[unsinkable]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

"Sorry I didn't mention you directly" is what you quoted her as saying. The second word is "I". 

 There is no *I or I'm* in front of the sorry. "I'm sorry I ---" is different than "Sorry I"

For example: 

I'm sorry I spilled the milk.

Sorry I spilled the milk.

 

 

[unsinkable]

16 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Basically, though as I said above, some of this depends on your definition of racism. But, yes, this is how I'd put it if you define unintentional bias as racism, which I do. 

I have to admit that I'm not totally sure what you're trying to clarify or if there's something you're trying to point out in the above that I'm missing. I have a feeling, though I hope I'm wrong, that your next response is going to be "gotcha in this logical fallacy" or something along those lines.

Whether making such a statement and seeming to base decisions on it makes her "a racist" is also up to the way you want to define things. Some people would say, she didn't intend to be racist and likely doesn't recognize that her remark was racist or had the effect of perpetuating racism therefore, she's not a racist. According to this line of thinking, you can't accidentally "hate" other races and unintentional bias, no matter how blatant, isn't racism, it's unintentional bias. Other people would say, who cares if she meant to be racist or not. The statement was racist, she made the decision to exclude this DIL based at least partly on race. Therefore, she's a racist.

Into this, we could also toss some other conversations. Does committing an act of racism make one "a racist"? I mean, does doing a bit art make one "an artist"? I don't know. There may be a distinction between one act and truly embodying an idea. And there's the conversation about whether it's fruitful to call white people racist or not - especially "nice" people like this MIL who likely aren't intending to be racist or exclusionary at all. It just raises everyone's hackles. It makes people feel like the conversation is shut down (though I'll reiterate that I don't agree with that, but that's the emotional feeling that many people have). It puts people on the defensive, which isn't good for getting them to listen. But then if you don't use clear words, how do you make people see that things that didn't intend can still cause harm or further racism? I don't think these have easy answers.

No, I don't have a "gotcha in this logical fallacy."

I do think you raise many questions that I have myself. 

[gardenmom5]

51 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yeah, my MIl is the most colorist person I know, and she's not white. The best thing about me, for example, was that I birthed her grandchildren who are fairer than her son. People can be very, very peculiar in their biases (I am assuming my MIL's biases are internalized racism/colonialism). 

My main thought on the statement in the OP is that it is weird - a peculiar non sequitur - which is why when I transferred it to a scenario where I'm the white partner, I'd want to ask the parent to explain more about why they said what they did, and what they actually mean by it. I mean, really, it's a good opportunity for white son and white mom to talk about these things, and put some effort into exploring where simple non connection with DIL starts and ends, and where racial/cultural discomfort, bias or outright racism begins. 

 

 

dh's grandfather was the same.  he was armenian.

[Rosie_0801]

@unsinkable
Take your griping to pm, please.

[unsinkable]

11 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

@unsinkable
Take your griping to pm, please.

I 'm happy to stop posting in this thread if that is what you want but I was answering everyone's questions in good faith in order to clarify my position and receive clarity from others in return.

I won't PMing anyone. I don't have room in my box.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, unsinkable said:

I 'm happy to stop posting in this thread if that is what you want but I was answering everyone's questions in good faith in order to clarify my position and receive clarity from others in return.

I won't PMing anyone. I don't have room in my box.

 

I think people are finding that your good faith communication strategies don't translate too well into their dialects, so clarity is not a likely outcome.

By all means keep posting if you have something to say that's relevant to the OP, but from the looks of the thread, that topic has pretty well run it's course.

[unsinkable]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

I think people are finding that your good faith communication strategies don't translate too well into their dialects, so clarity is not a likely outcome.

By all means keep posting if you have something to say that's relevant to the OP, but from the looks of the thread, that topic has pretty well run it's course.

Thank you.

[GoodGrief]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

To me it sounds like the MIL didn't want to come out with the real reason - maybe she just doesn't like DIL - and mangled a fake reason that was meant to masquerafe as 'concern' for DIL. 

 

That's my take as well, summed up much more succinctly than I managed. :-) Ideally, families could sit and talk reasonably about these matters, and partners would defend each other. But humans being the complicated creatures that they are, it rarely happens neatly like that. Hopefully the OP's friend is the sort that can navigate this kind of family scenario where the partner drops the ball.

[gardenmom5]

13 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

To me it sounds like the MIL didn't want to come out with the real reason - maybe she just doesn't like DIL - and mangled a fake reason that was meant to masquerafe as 'concern' for DIL.   

 

 

That's my take as well, summed up much more succinctly than I managed. 🙂 Ideally, families could sit and talk reasonably about these matters, and partners would defend each other. But humans being the complicated creatures that they are, it rarely happens neatly like that. Hopefully the OP's friend is the sort that can navigate this kind of family scenario where the partner drops the ball.

  yeah - how to admit to your son and his wife that you dont' like her enough to want to spend time with her on a vaca without him and grandkids there as a buffer . . .

awkward.

 

(and yes - I think the mil was rude (whatever her "excuse") - and I'd erect boundaries and limit time with her.)

[Hikin' Mama]

Yes, I would expect my dh to stand up for me. What a hurtful comment. And I hope my sons will let me know if I ever offend their wives (if and when they actually get married). I want my dil's to feel like my daughters.

[DawnM]

On 12/27/2018 at 1:51 PM, unsinkable said:

There are some New Yorkers who are very prejudiced against black people. Just for your FYI.

But sounds like everyone thinks what the MIL means is "I'm not taking you to NY with me bc I don't want to be seen with a non-White person."

 

Yeah, I always find it funny when people think "the South" is racist.  I moved from LA, where there were riots over racism.  

[unsinkable]

It's too bad people couldn't handle my clarifying questions bc there have been a few things that have occurred lately that were pertinent to this discussion. 

I would have like to really explore it more.