Dealing with School Refusal

[NorthernBeth]

Has anyone here dealt successfully with school refusal?  In other words, student has a great deal of trouble attending school. He is 12, has a lot of difficulties with school, is really noticing how far behind he is compared to other students, and multiple attempts to solve various different problems do not seem to work, as then the Apparent problem just switches to a different problem.  The over-riding issue is simply not wanting to be at school.

If you successfully overcame school refusal in your child, what was the most helpful resource? 

Any books or websites?

Helpful professionals? ( as in specifically- which branch was most helpful?  OT's?  therapists?) 

Specific routines?

School accommodations?

Some other thing I am not thinking of?

We have kind of reached crisis proportions here. He is resisting every day and it is taking us several hours to get him there.  Some days I cannot get him there at all.  Homeschooling is unfortunately not an option.  We already have rewards and consequences in place.  The school is aware of the issue and is trying to modify the programming--- although I suspect not enough.  I am still working on trying to access thorough evaluations to help us pinpoint academic issues.  He really hates his teacher this year, but has no specific complaints-- eg yelling, being mean, etc. I have met the man and he strikes me as okay, but probably a titch cold and sarcastic.  Definitely not a happy warm guy.  But we probably can't change that. 

We can't change classes as the teacher and his wife are both the grade 7 teachers this year, and are team teaching-- she handles Language Arts and History and Geography,  he handles Math and Science.  So switching classes won't really change anything.

We have thought about changing schools and have gone over and talked to the other school.  I am not 100% convinced that will really solve the problem.  

Any specific things you have tried that were really helpful?  Please no put-downs, we have worked hard on this issue and are honestly asking if anyone else has solved this problem?

[Paige]

Have you spoken with the principal and school counselor? We discussed this possibility when we put my girls in school. I really wasn't sure if they would walk in and the school was so nice and said it happens more often than you'd think. They said at the worst they could get a homebound teacher if you had a diagnosis of anxiety or something like that. They also said sometimes you could gradually build up and have a home teacher half days and the kid attends half days. There's other options for in school, like a flash pass and a safe room where if your student is upset for any reason he could flash the pass and just leave the classroom and chill with the nurse until he felt better, you can have preferential seating in the classroom, often by the door feels safer.

If the school isn't offering any of this I probably would switch. If he doesn't like the teachers and the school isn't working with you, it's going to be harder. It sounds like you may be dealing with a private school. A public school may have more experience, more resources, and be more willing to come up with creative options. 

Things worked out for us. We had them take 2 classes the first year in school, then all classes the next year. They were 7th grade. 

[PeterPan]

This is a private school or ps? Small or large? 

No put downs here, that's for sure. I'm not sure there's anything you could do better, because the problem is not you. The problem is he's communicating (via behavior) and people don't want to hear it.

I can tell you that most people in our area who get to that point pull their kids out and put them in an autism school. I live near a major city, and we have a number of them, which is really surprising. You're in Canada, yes? And sort of rural, yes? Sigh.

I can tell you the other thing that autism schools do, besides incredibly high support (1:2 ratio for most kids, visual schedules, consistent routines, lots of breaks, sensory room, etc.) is they have very flexible starting. Like literally they have this rolling window of an hour or more because basically EVERYBODY who is bringing kids there is dealing with this. It's just reality, and it's not you. If you feel like it's you, it's not. It's autism, the challenges, the school, that he's feeling things. Even in an ideal situation that he really enjoyed, he might still have hard days. So it's not you.

Ok, so then practical. I went to a talk at OCALICON with these two ladies from POPARD (provincial outreach program for autism and related disorders). I *think* maybe they are for the province of BC, but I'm not sure. You can look it up. I've got the brochure here. These ladies KICKED BUTT and they were doing some serious work helping provincial schools figure out how to do better. So I think it would be appropriate to go through your school, but your school, if small, may not even realize a resource like this is out there or how to contact them. Or contact POPARD and figure out who is the support program for your province. 

So essentially what they were doing is bringing their team of BCBAs, etc. in to TEACH the local school people and set up plans. And they had layers of support they were doing, even down to coming in for serious amounts of time to train. Serious commitment to making a difference on their part. If they could bring in a BCBA, do some FBA, figure out what is going on, they could help set up a plan, get enough school people trained, and maybe make a difference. You're not going to make everything go away, but just having a really workable plan, set up by a BCBA, might bring in enough support that he'd be more comfortable going.

Behavior is communication, and right now he's communicating (sounds like) that he's stressed and that it's not working. But unless that changes, I don't see how forcing him helps. I get that homeschooling was hard to. Unfortunately, I really get it. I can work hard with my ds, have him clipping along, then one thing and boom we're working on basics again. It's always back to basics, because his ability to cope and spring himself back isn't that great. So then the school or whoever is working with him has to be trained on those basics. The important thing is, they CAN be taught. 

Let me know if you contact POPARD. I thought they were very impressive and enjoyed their talk.

www.popard.ca

[Lecka]

Yes, I have.  With a 2nd grader, so I could get him there.  

I don’t see you mention anxiety.  

Okay, for our situation I voluntarily enrolled in a truancy prevention program which got my son counseling, and meetings between the counselor and the classroom teacher.

The counselor thought he had situational anxiety, which they address in several ways at school. 

We also talked to the school nurse a lot, she said she had several kids who would come to her with stomachaches etc when it would be anxiety related, and she has things she did with them (talking to them and things like that).  

For a while he went to the school nurse every morning when I walked him in, and she would take his temperature and encourage him.  

It was very hard and he was very fragile and had a lot of stomach complaints for about a year.  

The counselor didn’t think he had generalized anxiety, but though he was at risk of it as he got older, he had dug himself in a hole in ways that made things seem to pile up on him.  He also was having a hard time completing written assignments in a timely manner, which led to a lot of anxiety about not being able to finish his work.  His classroom teacher adapted a lot that way.  She was the kind of person to say “a 7-year-old should not feel this way in my classroom” so she wanted to work with the counselor and with my son.  

It’s hard to know for us, my son had some learning issues (especially related to his handwriting, to memorizing math facts, to spelling....) and my husband was also deployed.  The school always thought it had more to do about my husband being deployed, and I always thought it had more to do with learning issues.  He did do better when my husband got home, but in the meantime, the school addressed some things I think helped a lot.  So it’s hard to say.  

 

[NorthernBeth]

32 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Behavior is communication, and right now he's communicating (sounds like) that he's stressed and that it's not working. But unless that changes, I don't see how forcing him helps. I get that homeschooling was hard to. Unfortunately, I really get it. I can work hard with my ds, have him clipping along, then one thing and boom we're working on basics again. It's always back to basics, because his ability to cope and spring himself back isn't that great. So then the school or whoever is working with him has to be trained on those basics. The important thing is, they CAN be taught. 

Yes-- we think we have solved the problem, but it takes very little for another problem to come up. 

I was talking to the Mental Health services co-ordinator here about the situation and she said one reason his behaviour is escalating is because the adults are not listening.  In this case, it refers to Children's Services not us, as they are insisting he attend all day. He is literally begging us to homeschool him, and feels like his rights are being violated as we know other foster families who are homeschooling without any problems. He is wanting to organize a protest and feels that I should be standing up to his worker more.  He does not quite get that she has more authority than I do. 

I am super frustrated because he was not self-harming before they forced him back to school and now he is and has been making increasingly serious threats.  They basically came over the other day and had a talk with him and were attempting to "scare" him into going to school more consistently.  They are treating it as if he were "bad" rather than troubled.  I tried to go speak to the CAS supervisor yesterday but he was out of office.  

It is not technically a private school as Catholic schools are publicly funded in Ontario, but it is very small and does have far less resources than a typical public school would have. This is one reason why we are considering the other school.  One of the original reasons we were sending him to this school was that many of the kids he knows from church  were at this school and we thought that would make it easier socially for him.  It has certainly helped to some degree as I know several of them have stopped other kids from attempting to bully him.  I have no idea how quickly he would make friends at the new school.  

I don't know of any publicly funded autism schools in Ontario.  There are some speciality schools but mostly in Toronto or way farther south--- very far out of our area-- I don't know if we would be allowed to move that far away with him.  There is one I was looking into in Winnipeg which is only 5 hours away but then we would be out of province which I don't think is allowed- although possibly I could ask his birth family if they were okay with that.  I haven't found anything in Thunder Bay but if anyone knows of anything please let me know.  

I will look into the POPARD site-- usually education is a provincial responsibility and BC is very far away from us, but possibly they have a sister organization here? 

 

[Lecka]

I’m just going to add, websites the school counselor gave me were about anxiety.  

I will also add, things came to a head when I took him to the doctor.  The doctor said it could be a sign of learning issues.  She gave me suggestions to talk to the school, and said to come back to her if that didn’t make things better.  

I don’t know because things worked out with the school counselor, but I think if not, we would have been referred to a counselor, and been trying to figure out if it was learning issues or anxiety, or a combination, or something else.  

I was letting him stay home with a lot of stomach issues, but not taking him to the doctor, so that was our situation.  

[NorthernBeth]

He complains about stomach aches constantly when I am trying to get him to school. He definitely struggles with anxiety over all sorts of things, and the psychiatrist wanted to discuss going on Straterra ( not sure why he didn't do it at last appointment)  We were supposed to have the appointment a few weeks ago, but they cancelled and we are waiting to here about our new appointment time.  The person who normally handled some of these types of situations quit last year and they have not been able to find a replacement, so he is not getting that service. 

( He used to have a planned break to her room which was kind of like a Snoozelen room-- dark, a swing, strings of interesting lights, mats, lego.  ) But she is not there, so no go this year.  Last year's teacher also used the Spec Ed room on an informal basis several times a day to give him a break from the stress of the regular classroom.  I talked to the principal about him really benefiting from that break and have a meeting planned for Thursday with his teachers and will be pushing for that .  But other teacher had an aide for another student, and could leave her room to walk him down and sit with him there and this teacher does not. 

I like the idea of him not having to go to class first thing as that might be a lot more do-able for him.  Thank-you for the idea.

[freesia]

What a hard situation.  I haven't dealt with school refusal, but we deal with anxiety a lot here--and I have struggled with it.  What I do know is that with school refusal caused by anxiety, that homeschooling isn't the answer to the problem.  Avoidance only reinforces the anxiety.  I would be concerned that, if it is anxiety, allowing him not to go to school would cause the anxiety to become more generalized.  However, challenging the anxiety to panic level is not helpful either.  Like others above have said, usually the best route to go is exposure--doing the activity that you want to avoid in small doses and reflecting on success and learning to calm yourself.

Now, I know you can't homeschool--but I wanted to chime in to let you know that that might not be the best option anyhow. 

I would get a regular therapist on board to help him learn coping skills. The therapist could help him figure out how to calm himself and advocate for himself within school.

[Lecka]

Could the other school do more to meet his needs?

I think there is some combination of the school meeting his needs, and you following up with the psychiatrist.  Which you are doing!

But I think it doesn’t sound like they are very set up for it at his school.  If the other school is more set up, I think that would go a long way.  If it’s not — maybe not.  

I was told for my son, that a lot of kids will have more anxiety beginning in puberty, and to watch my son for it and know it is a common time to have that happen.  Your son is about that age also.  

Is there anybody at either school who is good with anxiety, knows things to do, etc?  It was a counselor and nurse at my son’s elementary.  My son was not the only one with school-based anxiety or school refusal.  It was a known thing, it wasn’t “just him” or blamed on his home life, would that be better at the other school?  

[Lecka]

I think feeling like it’s an unfair situation is too bad, but also, I think you can’t feed into that too much.

Its very hard when there is being supportive and listening, and then not reinforcing some negative things being said.  There is a balance there.  I don’t know, it is hard.  

It is also hard because sometimes anxiety can just happen to lead to what the child is saying, too, and then it’s hard to know, is this really the child’s view, or is this the way the child is talking us into things because they are feeling anxious and know what to say to talk us into things?  Or is that only me that happens to??????

I talked to the school counselor on this, there were a few things I would answer once and then I wouldn’t participate in the conversation, because it was not helpful.  But that was a new idea to me because I thought I was being helpful by being supportive.  But in practice I wasn’t being helpful.  

It is very hard, I am glad you are trying different things to advocate for him.  

For some things I could say “hey, I am advocating in x and y ways,” even if I wasn’t advocating in his preferred way (that would also be the way that meant he didn’t have to do something!).  

I do not know the name of the book I read, but I did read a book about anxiety the counselor recommended.  Unfortunately I was doing some counterproductive things like freesia mentioned in her post.  

[NorthernBeth]

Yes, I am beginning to think the other school can do a better job of meeting his needs in the classroom.  They are pretty aware of the difficulties of getting some kids to school and the principal there offered to allow DS to shadow the class a couple time to see how it would be.  I think having that option to try the other school out, without having to commit to leaving his school gives him a little more leeway to try something new without having to make a commitment to stay there.  They have asked me to send a short summary of our situation and some of the testing he has had done to give them some specifics, and have offered to meet with us next week.  ( This week is report card week here and both schools have parent-teacher interviews after school.) I just don't want to fool myself into thinking that switching schools will magically solve all his problems with school.  More importantly, I don't want him thinking that either, as he will then be very disappointed. And I am worried he will miss his friends as he may not make new friends all that easily.  

Yesterday, I followed up with the principal at his current school on 2 things he had promised me and he had not followed up on either  ( 1 was the referral to the mental health co-ordinator for the school district, and the other was talking to the teachers about the problems he is facing) I will be checking today to see if he had talked to the teachers yet.   I had also requested at the recommendation of the physiotherapist that the teachers prompt him regularly to use the washroom as he was experiencing accidents from trying to hold it for 7 hours.  Ds says this is not happening, but I will check with teachers, as he may not be reporting accurately.   

I don't find the private counsellor we are currently seeing is doing us very much good, but there are not a lot of options here.  She is convinced he has autism and feels that traditional talk therapy will not work very well.  She seems to be at a loss to know what will work instead. We are seeing her tonight.  If the school still had their Youth and Child Worker, I think she would be overseeing this area and doing the counselling/ problem-solving side of it.  Without her, I am not sure it falls under anyone else's specific job duties. 

[Kanin]

If commiseration makes you feel slightly better, I used to tutor a boy who was SO anxious (although it looked like defiant) that he positively refused to go to his very expensive reading specialist. He was probably about 10 at the time, and he sat in the car and refused to move. His mom told him that if he didn't go, he'd owe her the $100 the session cost... and he agreed! No reading specialist, and the kid handed over his birthday $100. The same kid also got refused a place in a private school because they wanted him to do some testing... during his regular gym class time. Gym was the ONLY thing this kid enjoyed at school, so when he was told he had to miss it for READING TESTING, he lost it. It was really too bad, because he's a great kid and any idiot could have seen that taking a stressed kid out of the only bright spot in his day was a terrible idea.

Anyway - I hope touring the public school goes really well. If I were you, I'd do anything possible to make it a fun and enjoyable day for him. It does sound like your current school is not motivated to make changes to better meet his needs. Keep fighting! Sorry you have to be the mama bear 😞 

[prairiewindmomma]

We've BTDT.

In the US, we can get an IEP for anxiety.  It creates a series of procedural safeguards and rights that just a 504 (disability accommodation) does not.  We had a number of very large meetings in which the principal, vice principal, counselor, SPED coordinator, SPED teachers, and anyone who had contact with my kid all sat down and specifically discussed a "If this happens, then we will......" scenario. There were also a number of things that were set up so that it never had to get to that point.

I'm happy to chat by pm. Things are actually quite good right now.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

Okay, for our situation I voluntarily enrolled in a truancy prevention program

That's really smart. I see posts online (locally) of people who aren't being offered that and they're getting calls and threats from truancy officers. The local advice seems to then be get a note from a p-doc saying he should be excused for lateness and absences, which really misses the point that something ought to be done. 

2 hours ago, NorthernBeth said:

( He used to have a planned break to her room which was kind of like a Snoozelen room-- dark, a swing, strings of interesting lights, mats, lego.  )

So was he doing better about going to school when he had access to that? That's a sensory room, and it shouldn't be dependent on whether a particular teacher made it that year. Can the school provide some kind of break room like that?

2 hours ago, NorthernBeth said:

I like the idea of him not having to go to class first thing as that might be a lot more do-able for him. 

That's stuff that BCBA for the district should be helping with. Yes, the people at OCALICON were saying they do this a LOT, having a break right when the student gets there to smooth out the stress and transition of getting there. There's definitely more they could do that wouldn't cost a lot. It's just a matter of bringing in that help to get it identified.

2 hours ago, NorthernBeth said:

Last year's teacher also used the Spec Ed room on an informal basis several times a day to give him a break from the stress of the regular classroom.  I talked to the principal about him really benefiting from that break and have a meeting planned for Thursday with his teachers and will be pushing for that .  But other teacher had an aide for another student, and could leave her room to walk him down and sit with him there and this teacher does not.

It sounds like they have staffing issues, sigh. If they can't be compelled legally to provide it with an aide and going to another space, what about a break in the room? It's pretty common to have quiet nooks, different types of seating, couches, an area with lamps and lower light, rugs, etc. They could make a bucket for him of his tools, especially headphones, either noise canceling or with audiobooks. Can he break with people or does he need to break apart from other people? They're different levels of support. But really, what you can't change, make better. 

30 minutes ago, NorthernBeth said:

Yes, I am beginning to think the other school can do a better job of meeting his needs in the classroom.  They are pretty aware of the difficulties of getting some kids to school and the principal there offered to allow DS to shadow the class a couple time to see how it would be.  I think having that option to try the other school out, without having to commit to leaving his school gives him a little more leeway to try something new without having to make a commitment to stay there.  They have asked me to send a short summary of our situation and some of the testing he has had done to give them some specifics, and have offered to meet with us next week. 

It sounds like you're identifying the supports he needs (and has sometimes had in the past) to do better. If this other school has more resources to offer those supports, it could be a good change. It sounds like his current school is really strapped for resources to make things happen. :(

Someone talked meds. For some kids ADHD meds actually reduce anxiety, which is kind of counter-intuitive. If the ADHD is making him feel less confident (about his ability to do tasks, be organized, focus, and meet expectations), then having the meds up his ability to do things can reduce his anxiety. That's what my dd found. Not a cure for anxiety or a replacement for meds or therapy/strategies, but still could be a piece.

[PeterPan]

36 minutes ago, NorthernBeth said:

She is convinced he has autism and feels that traditional talk therapy will not work very well.  She seems to be at a loss to know what will work instead.

Would she be willing to pursue working on Interoception? Kelly Mahler behind it has a new curriculum coming out. It's SO close to being ready and it will be open and go, something she can just do. An autism school near us is going to be doing an 8 week study using it, and as soon as Mahler gets it to me I'm going forward to. It's basically the missing piece between what they're feeling and being able to implement strategies.

Right now there's data that working through the phase 1 materials over the course of 8 weeks brings measurable improvement in interoception, which would improve his ability to self-monitor and apply strategies. Then she'd keep going with phases 2 and 3 of the materials.

Edited November 20, 2018 by PeterPan

[NorthernBeth]

59 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Would she be willing to pursue working on Interoception? Kelly Mahler behind it has a new curriculum coming out. It's SO close to being ready and it will be open and go, something she can just do. An autism school near us is going to be doing an 8 week study using it, and as soon as Mahler gets it to me I'm going forward to. It's basically the missing piece between what they're feeling and being able to implement strategies.

Right now there's data that working through the phase 1 materials over the course of 8 weeks brings measurable improvement in interoception, which would improve his ability to self-monitor and apply strategies. Then she'd keep going with phases 2 and 3 of the materials.

This sounds awesome.  I will ask her tonight!  How soon is close?

[Lecka]

I think maybe share your worry about friends with the potential school.  See if they do anything to try to provide opportunities for him.  It was when he was a little older, but my same son was purposely put together frequently with 3 boys that the teacher thought would be good for him, and that way he could have a chance to be with the same kids enough to warm up.  Also one of the boys was very gregarious!  Sometimes that is on their radar or can be put on their radar.  A lot of kids do better when they have more going for them socially at school.  You could feel them out a little and see.  

I agree it is probably not going to solve every problem, but it can help a lot!  I know people who have changed schools to have a child be at a more proactive school, and it really can help, but at the same time, it’s not that all problems go away.  Sometimes it is more that the supports are in place and some stressors are removed or lessened, and then it’s just a better situation, and things seem to be less dire when they do come up.  That would be if the other school seemed a lot more proactive.  

[NorthernBeth]

I am still reading and processing everything people have written.  I so appreciate the time people are taking as it gives me lots of ideas to share with dh.

I wanted to share an interesting conversation I just had with the mom of another boy in ds's class. 

She was furious at his report card and how poor the marks are as well as how negative the entire tone was from the teacher.  She was amazed there was nothing more positive on or any words about what her son was good at.  She was asking me advice on how to go in and talk to him and get him to understand that some positive words and praise will really help.

In addition, her son also mentioned how great school was today and especially math. When she  asked why, he said it was because their teacher was away and a substitute taught math and you know--- actually explained it. 

She is sending him over to me with some math review pages,  as they have a big test tomorrow and she wants me to teach it to him. 

Oh, the irony!

[Pen]

Friends has been the main issue I am aware of with school refusal. And helping solve it the main thing to help. 

[Pen]

Or rather: lack of friends. 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, NorthernBeth said:

This sounds awesome.  I will ask her tonight!  How soon is close?

Your person could order the book and assessments now.

 https://aapcpublishing.net/interoception-assessment-forms.html

https://aapcpublishing.net/interoception-the-eighth-sensory-system.html 

It will take several sessions for her to finish going through the assessment, so by the time she does that it will be January and the curriculum should be out. I haven't heard exact dates, but I know they're in final push mode, just trying, trying to get it done. I know they're committing to dates to begin research projects using it, so they must be super close. 

Also, if she goes to https://www.mahlerautism.com/ Mahler is working on developing online training for interoception. Her trainings in person are PHENOMENAL, so I think the online will be good stuff too. I don't think it will disappoint.

So what did your practitioner think when you brought this up?

[PeterPan]

36 minutes ago, Pen said:

Friends has been the main issue I am aware of with school refusal. And helping solve it the main thing to help. 

Oh that's really sad but so true! 

https://aapcpublishing.net/talk-with-me.html This was THE book Ruth Aspy recommended, like hands down. If there's any possibility that conversation and social are holding back his ability to make friends, then maybe working on the interoception (with the psych or with mom at home) and conversation (with an SLP or with mom at home) would work. 

[NorthernBeth]

You know - I am not sure if friends are the main reason he is refusing to go to school right now.  I think they WERE a big part of it when this whole thing started several years ago.  It is one of the reasons we moved, as his rez is pretty small and it is not like the kids are going to change much.  I think he expected much the same issues here which is why he didn't want to go to school last year. But when he finally did go, he said the kids in his class last year were really nice. He said there was no bullying at all from his classmates.  He still wasn't crazy about school but he didn't seem particularly anxious once he got over it--- he did find it super stressful and exhausting though, especially as Grade 6 is a big testing year here and it was completely beyond him and he knew it.

This year I am not sure it is kids-- but I wonder if the teacher is more or less registering as a "bully" to him, so he is employing the same avoidance technique?  One of his friends mentioned that there was one kid who called him names a few times and this friend stood up for him.  But ds never complained about it to us. So I am not sure how important it is.  He constantly mentions how much he dislikes his teacher.  He adored last year's teacher and just thought the world of her.  We had a birthday party a few weeks ago and most of the kids he invited were from his class and they all came and seemed very nice and friendly.  He had a great time.  This is actually the main reason we have not wanted to move to other school even though it might have better services as he has friends here, and he might not make any there. Who knows?  He is the kind of kid that people either like or hate, there is not real in-between.  I think this is the part I am agonizing over-- will better services and a nicer teacher outweigh the issue of needing to make new friends?  Or will needing to make new friends be so hard that it will not be worth the switch? Which part is more important?

Honestly,  he has had problems with school  since about grade 1 or grade 2.  He races through his work, doesn't bother to read the instructions, often doesn't understand the instructions even when he does read them, resists being corrected or told he has done something wrong, and is often perceived as lazy rather than incapable.  If he doesn't understand something immediately, he simply gives up and assumes he is "stupid".  ( his words, not mine) He has had a lot of issues with not doing work at school, so it gets sent home as homework. Then we try to work on it, and he falls apart because he doesn't really seem able to do it.  But I can't seem to get across to his teachers-- if you feel like he can do the work, why is it not getting done then???  I mean sometimes work is coming home and he has literally only written one or two sentences or even written nothing, Same thing with math -- not a single problem done.  If I ever saw a kid with a blank paper, I would be sitting down and working through 2-3 problems, or sentences or whatever, until it was obvious that the child really could do the work.  So when I see a completely blank I feel pretty suspicious.

He really, really hates feeling stupid.   And I think he feels that way all the time right now. And he is very obviously at the bottom of his class. Him and one other kid do completely separate work in language arts and math.  

PeterPan-- I sent the links to the therapist so she can check everything out at her leisure.  I ordered the one book called "Talk with Me" .   Still waiting on the Rothstein stuff I ordered to come in.  Therapist found it almost impossible to engage him in any productive conversation last night and re-confirmed that she still has serious concerns about ASD.  She also reiterated that she didn't think counselling was what we really need, but rather an ABA behaviourist-- which I don't think one even exists in this town.  

But we got him off to school today so victory for that anyways!!

 

[Lecka]

If the school is going to meet his needs I think it is worth it.  

It sounds like the situation right now is really not good and they don’t sound like they are doing a good job at his current school.  

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, NorthernBeth said:

she didn't think counselling was what we really need, but rather an ABA behaviourist-- which I don't think one even exists in this town.  

Did you look at that info on POPARD and who might be servicing schools in your province? They provide BCBAs. A BCBA *is* what she's talking about when she says an ABA behaviorist. BCBA is the certification label for it. That person should be able to consult by skype and they should be able to create a plan with workers. 

I don't know if anyone has told you this, but the starting point is always the same (rapport, trust, etc.). It doesn't matter when they start, they're going to go back to basics like that. And it doesn't have to be the BCBA doing it. YOU could do it if you did that RBT training (for instance) and had a BCBA to supervise you. I'm just trying to give you options. I'm saying don't think what they do is beyond being done. It's not getting done because nobody has made the goals or a roadmap to get there. So I'm just looking for ways you can make that happen.

I agree with the professional that counseling isn't where you start, sigh.

4 hours ago, NorthernBeth said:

I can't seem to get across to his teachers-- if you feel like he can do the work, why is it not getting done then??? 

If the school district could bring in that BCBA from the province-level support team, they could observe and do an FBA and try to figure it out. Something is clearly happening. He sounds like a student who needs much higher support and a lower ratio to succeed. My ds would be like that. One little glitch and it's OVER. 

When do you tour the other school? Hopefully they can tell you what support level they can offer. You're wanting to hear things like he'd be in a room where it's 1:6 or 1:8 or he could have a para while staying in his mainstream classroom. Definitely access to a resource/break room. Much higher support.

If it's a school that offers more services, they might also have more kids he'd identify with, hence more chances for friends. It could work out well. Won't know till you visit.

**Well I stand corrected! There's also something called a BCAT=Board Certified Autism Technician. It's in-between RBT and BCBA. And there are two kinds of BCBA, one with a masters (BCBA) and one with only a bachelors (a slightly different label). Doesn't matter anyway. I just checked and there are none listed for Canada. But again, you could get the training yourself or try to compel the school to get someone trained.

Edited November 21, 2018 by PeterPan

[scoutingmom]

Hugs.  I have dealt with it, but not successfully.  The truant officers even gave up.  She is 28 now, and struggling.  We did everything we could think of.  

[Kanin]

11 hours ago, NorthernBeth said:

He really, really hates feeling stupid.   And I think he feels that way all the time right now. And he is very obviously at the bottom of his class. Him and one other kid do completely separate work in language arts and math.  

 

This hurts my heart for him, and for you. Has he been evaluated for special education? 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Mainer

[NorthernBeth]

9 hours ago, Mainer said:

This hurts my heart for him, and for you. Has he been evaluated for special education? 

 

Somewhat--we are seeking more.  Some of what he is diagnosed with does not qualify for help-- ADHD, Borderline Intellectual Disability, SPD. 

Also has a lot of anxiety but that does not qualify for help here.  So frustrated that with all these diagnoses, none of them seem to "count".  

Yesterday was another great day.  He called me at 1:00 in the afternoon on recess and announced he was quitting school and I needed to come pick him up right now!!😨  Refused to tell me what had happened. 

We went to school and sat down with V-P.. Nothing had happened to him ( No bullying, no confrontation with teacher, etc.)  After a lot of questions, we discovered that math was next and one of his friends had had a seizure  ( which he did not really understand--- so-and-so did something with his neck muscles and fainted)  He was hysterical.  It took quite a while to coax him out of office and into spec. ed room.  We left, and it was reported to us that he went back to class shortly after, with the assistance of spec. ed. teacher who also stayed and tried to help him transition back to class, and was apparrently successful.  Principal had not spoken to her about the situation, but she gave us referral forms to sign that will get their behaviour specialist into the picture.  

Ds ' s take on it is that he had a meltdown, but will be fine today.  I guess we will find out in about an hour and a half.  I think witnessing the seizure and not really understanding it  ( he was under the awed impression that the boy had somehow flexed his muscles in some way and caused this to happen to himself 🤥) and was also freaking out. 

I have gone over threee times to talk to the child worker's supervisor to see how much of the threats that are being made are from the organization and how much was just her. 

Parent-teacher interviews tonight.  I can't wait.  I may just walk around with this giant ball of anxiety eating away at my gut forever.

I am sending the other school some a summary of our conversation with them from the other day, and am going to obtain a copy of the IEP for them.  

[Lecka]

I hope the referral forms lead to something!  What a hard day for him 😞

[City Mouse]

I don't have any additional suggestions for you, but I feel for you. It took my DS several years to overcome the damage of one school year with a bad teacher and a bully. Luckily for us, he was able to attend an online public school for several years. Now that he can finally drive himself, he is attending a high school that is over an hour from home (that is how far he has to go to attend a school in a different district). There are thing I wish I had done differently, but there is only so much that can be done when living in a very small community with no school options.

[PeterPan]

That sounds like it was scary for him!!! Well the referral sounds good. Keep us posted.

[Kanin]

On 11/22/2018 at 8:07 AM, NorthernBeth said:

Somewhat--we are seeking more.  Some of what he is diagnosed with does not qualify for help-- ADHD, Borderline Intellectual Disability, SPD. 

Also has a lot of anxiety but that does not qualify for help here.  So frustrated that with all these diagnoses, none of them seem to "count".  

 

Forgive me if you've already said this, but are you in Canada? At my school in the US, a borderline intellectual disability would get you special education services, and possibly the ADHD would as well, if it's preventing him from benefitting from the regular curriculum - and the anxiety and ADHD would at least get a 504 plan with accommodations. Can you check with the other school to see if his diagnoses would get him services there? It sounds like he would benefit from a smaller class size, with a lot of emotional supports. 

A behavior plan (with structure, and with rewards/consequences) is only going to help if he is able to control his behavior. If he's not in control, then he may want to do the right thing for the reward and to avoid consequences, but he will not be able to manage it, no matter how much he wants to. Do you think they will actually teach him strategies? (I guess I have negative feelings about this school from what you've said so far.)

How did the parent-teacher interviews go? Hugs.

[Lecka]

Just to mention.... when my younger son had a behavior plan it included positive behavior supports.  Since this was part of his IEP it meant staff were required to implement the positive behabior supports listed in his behavior plan.

It sounds like this is one of those things where maybe I (or somebody) say “the behavior plan helped my son so much” but that means “positive behavior supports being consistently provided” helped my son so much.  

If another place says “behavior plan” and it consists of.... other things, but not including positive behavior supports, then I think it’s a time where you might hear “behavior plan” but then what you are getting is not the same thing even though they are called by the same name.

I have to say it sounds like that right now, to me I would say they are not following a behavior plan because they are not providing appropriate supports for his behavior, but it’s one of those things — it’s a word and different people can use it in different ways.  

At a certain point ———— you can say supports are succeeding when the child is showing improvement.  If the child is in the midst of not doing well, then whatever the supports are they aren’t working.

Unless there are new things being tried and it’s been less than two weeks.  I have heard there should be some sign of improvement by two weeks to stay with the status quo.  

[Lecka]

OP — this may be such an American buzzword, I don’t know, but if the other school is “implementing PBIS” that is a good sign.... it is schoolwide positive supports.  Now — like anything it can be implemented better, worse, or in name only, but it has been a positive for me because it means they want to provide positive supports.  

[Lecka]

I want to mention, there is a possible negative to staying with the current school.  

If it’s aversive to him it could be creating negative feelings about “school” in general that could transfer to a different school, which is an additional issue to deal with.  

Taking away an aversive that could be creating negative associations is a GOOD thing to do.  It is something to consider as part of the pros and cons.  

[Lecka]

What I mean is, even when my son was having a good experience in school and could realize that, he still had that reflex of “oh no school aaaahhhh” leading to stomachaches and not wanting to go to school in the morning.  And it took a year for that to get to a point where it was   not a huge issue.  So the negative association remains and can be hard to replace with a positive association.  

I dont “know” if the same feelings would transfer to a different school, or if it would be a fresh start, but in the meantime, the longer he builds a negative association the longer it will take to replace it with a positive association (or this is my impression).  Though I think it varies, too.  

[PeterPan]

24 minutes ago, Lecka said:

OP — this may be such an American buzzword, I don’t know, but if the other school is “implementing PBIS” that is a good sign.... it is schoolwide positive supports.  Now — like anything it can be implemented better, worse, or in name only, but it has been a positive for me because it means they want to provide positive supports.  

Yes, PBIS and UDL were all over OCALICON. I assume they're doing that in Canada too. 

And yes to what Lecka was saying. The majority of what they're doing should be pro-active, not reactive. And then when it's reactive, they're still going to look for ways to keep it positive. Because the dc is struggling with perspective taking, problem solving, anxiety, etc., going negative when there are behaviors is not going to help. His ability to take the other person's perspective and make a better choice and stay calm and deal with embarrassment, etc. is limited. That problem solving is a huge thing to wrap your brain around. Even if you say well I think he functions better than that, his ability to problem solve is probably affected. So people (a new/novice therapist whatever) will get frustrated with my ds and use negative language to explain they don't like what he's doing. I'm like do you have NO CLUE that he literally doesn't know the expected behavior or what the better choice would be? So sometimes positive is about being instructive and clear.

There's another strategy, The Way to A, that has a picture book but is also just a really simple concept you could employ right away. It's been helpful with my ds sometimes. Just is the dc is in a particular position (refusing to comply, whatever) and you clearly explain the paths. Path A is you choose to do such and such and THEN we get to go to this other thing and we have a really great time together for 2 hours. Path B is you choose not to do this and we end up loosing all our time we could have had to play and spend it waiting and being grumpy and sad. So you explain the two paths, what the OUTCOMES would be of each path, and then explain why you hope he'll choose path A and get to A. (I really hope you'll choose A because I'm looking forward to... The way to A is to go ahead and choose to do...) 

Way to A is one of my favorite concepts/strategies with ds. It's an emphasis on explaining what he's missing so he can actually understand and calm down and make a better choice. He has deficits in problem solving (doesn't see other paths, gets rigid) and doesn't necessarily get cause/effect (you did such and such so such and such happens). So he can end up in a spiral of unhappiness because he's dealing with outcomes of choices and he didn't anticipate those outcomes. So we're looking for the most concise, low language, trim way to explain exactly what the paths and outcomes are. And it's not just negative (you don't go, truancy officer comes) but also positive like you go and your father will be happy and our evening will go better and we'll watch a movie and eat popcorn. But if you choose this other way, your father will be unhappy and have long talks and there will be no time/joy for movies and popcorn. We can help them see the domino effect as they make choices and maybe help them get there.

Definitely it would not override serious problems. The school definitely needs to do more. Well anyways, I'm psyched they're bringing in the behaviorist finally. Should help. 

[NorthernBeth]

Yeah.  I am in Canada.  I think we are light-years away from Americans in how this is handled.  Plus we are in the north where personnel is limited.  And truthfully-- for a lot of people-- if you could get a job elsewhere-- you would.  

Thank-you Lecka.  A lot of what you are saying is what I am wondering too. A fresh start might be what we need.  We had our parent-teacher interview last night.  I am not sure what to think.  He was saying the right things--- "Obviously ds's need to feel safe and have a sense of belonging is more important than academics right now."  I think the teacher has been "talked" to, as he was less cold.  He says he sees no sign that ds is unhappy in class.   Which is perfectly possible as ds is pretty good at faking it and may in fact be enjoying his friends even if he is scared of his teacher.  I have not often heard him comment negatively about a teacher before, usually just the experience of school. 

Also, when we talked about how math is being taught, I can see what part of the problem is. It sounds like math is almost primarily problem based, open-ended questions like "How many rectangles can you make with a perimeter of 16cm?"  It is a valid questions but requires a good understanding of perimeter, of how to calculate perimeter, of how length and width affect perimeter, plus an understanding of how to approach problem-solving in a systematic way.   I am not sure he has any of those skills.  And it is very different from how he has seen math taught before, which would have been more like-- here is a shape with these measurements.,  if we add them up, we can find the perimeter.  But that is so much more straightforward than how he is being taught right now.  The teacher asked me for some ideas on how to make math more accessible so I wrote up about 2 pages worth of suggestions--- some pretty basic techniques really--- give him an elapsed timer so he can see how much longer he has to work, split the work into smaller chunks with a break in-between, give him a reward for completing math even if he didn't do well, praise him for trying,  provide more structured activities for math so he understands better what to do,  follow a very basic lesson structure so ds knows what to expect ( such as I do, we do, you do) ,  explicitly teach problem-solving skills and strategies, and have a reference poster with an example so he can refer to each strategy taught.  I sent the list today.  Meh-- I feel like I am teaching the guy how to teach. 

I don't know.  I really want to make this school work because he has friends here.  They are now offering to have the behavioural lead sit in on math class and help--- but if ds is simply feeling super anxious but being outwardly complaint, I am not sure how much help that will be.  I mean, basically, if he got into math class, he is actually already having a good day or he wouldn't have made it. I need his caseworker to get back in town so she can sign the papers for consent.  

I don't think the school has tried much in terms of positive rewards as they are not seeing the problem in the classroom ( other than him refusing to come!)  I suspect that may think it is simply a home problem.  People keep mentioning counselling.  He is getting counselling.  If the work is too hard, counselling won't change that, you need to.  If he struggles to handle anxiety, you who are there as he experiences anxiety need to help him use strategies to calm down.  But he is just trying to hide how overwhelmed he is when he is in class, and refuses to ask for help. No one is giving him strategies-- other than letting him calm down in a separate room when we are physically in the school, but having trouble getting him to come in to class.  After he has calmed down, they simply keep insisting he must go back.  The v-p was reassuring me that sometimes you just need tough love.  

I will check and see if the other school has PBIS.  I am just waiting for principal to get back to me so we can see up an after-school meet and greet with the possible teacher.  

[PeterPan]

29 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I dont “know” if the same feelings would transfer to a different school, or if it would be a fresh start, but in the meantime, the longer he builds a negative association the longer it will take to replace it with a positive association (or this is my impression).  Though I think it varies, too.  

Lecka already knows this from her own experience, but for the op the school may try to do something like using an area of strong interest to help him have more positive associations with school. Hopefully the behaviorist will work on that, and you could think about whether there are areas of interest he has (assuming restricted interests) that they could harness via ANYTHING. They can put his interest onto Power Cards. It's a new strategy now they were talking about, and it can be very age-appropriate. The Power Card Strategy 2.0: Using Special Interests to Motivate Children and Youth with Autism Spectrum Disorder They could play games or having reading in his area of interest. They can think up things and that's information you can help them with, like what quirky things he likes that they could harness. My ds collects flashlights, for instance. If there's a flashlight involved, he is SO gonna be there. Flashlights could be brought in with power cards, games, science, anything, anything, even just lining up a collection and earning points toward more. So that's information you might have that can help them, because you know what he's into.

And actually, I'm really kind of amazing myself that I hadn't thought to do that till just now, lol. I'm preaching to myself here.   Sometimes we KNOW these things (harness areas of interest, etc.) but we don't do them. And for the school workers, the behavior at the convention was saying the gap is that the school has to dig and talk with so many people to figure them out. So that's info you can bring to help them. 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, NorthernBeth said:

And truthfully-- for a lot of people-- if you could get a job elsewhere-- you would.  

If you want a laugh, Kansas must be that way. Like if you're in the US and you think of where to go on vacation, Kansas is SO NOT on your list, lol. Maybe for Little House stuff? Even then I don't know. (Not offense meant to Kansans, lol.) Anyways, the convention speakers who were from Kansas AND from Canada both were talking up the joys and needs of coming there, that there were instant jobs for people who were qualified, that they just needed workers. 

That's a total rabbit trail. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by PeterPan

[NorthernBeth]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

There's another strategy, The Way to A, that has a picture book but is also just a really simple concept you could employ right away. It's been helpful with my ds sometimes. Just is the dc is in a particular position (refusing to comply, whatever) and you clearly explain the paths. Path A is you choose to do such and such and THEN we get to go to this other thing and we have a really great time together for 2 hours. Path B is you choose not to do this and we end up loosing all our time we could have had to play and spend it waiting and being grumpy and sad. So you explain the two paths, what the OUTCOMES would be of each path, and then explain why you hope he'll choose path A and get to A. (I really hope you'll choose A because I'm looking forward to... The way to A is to go ahead and choose to do...) 

Way to A is one of my favorite concepts/strategies with ds. It's an emphasis on explaining what he's missing so he can actually understand and calm down and make a better choice. He has deficits in problem solving (doesn't see other paths, gets rigid) and doesn't necessarily get cause/effect (you did such and such so such and such happens). So he can end up in a spiral of unhappiness because he's dealing with outcomes of choices and he didn't anticipate those outcomes. So we're looking for the most concise, low language, trim way to explain exactly what the paths and outcomes are. And it's not just negative (you don't go, truancy officer comes) but also positive like you go and your father will be happy and our evening will go better and we'll watch a movie and eat popcorn. But if you choose this other way, your father will be unhappy and have long talks and there will be no time/joy for movies and popcorn. We can help them see the domino effect as they make choices and maybe help them get there.

I love the simplicity of this.  I will check this out.  We have been talking about this, but probably in a more long-winded way that was not as concise as he needed.

  I looked into the POPARD, you need a letter of employment in a BC school to take their course.  Even a certified teacher from BC who has no job cannot access their programs.  

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, NorthernBeth said:

The teacher asked me for some ideas on how to make math more accessible so I wrote up about 2 pages worth of suggestions--- some pretty basic techniques really--- give him an elapsed timer so he can see how much longer he has to work, split the work into smaller chunks with a break in-between, give him a reward for completing math even if he didn't do well, praise him for trying,  provide more structured activities for math so he understands better what to do,  follow a very basic lesson structure so ds knows what to expect ( such as I do, we do, you do) ,  explicitly teach problem-solving skills and strategies, and have a reference poster with an example so he can refer to each strategy taught.  I sent the list today.  Meh-- I feel like I am teaching the guy how to teach. 

In the US, they would eval and bring in an intervention specialist to teach that area. It sounds like he might not be doing well in group instruction and might need specialized instruction. 

Also, in the US at least, once the dc has autism, they'll give goals in math, reading, writing, etc. even without diagnosing SLDs. The reason is the autism is affecting the learning. There are language issues in math, inferencing and vocabulary issues in reading, structure and narrative language issues in writing, etc. So it's totally appropriate for you to be pushing for IEP goals and specialized instruction (if available) even if there are not SLDs diagnosed. The fact that he has autism is reason enough.

[NorthernBeth]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

If you want a laugh, Kansas must be that way. Like if you're in the US and you think of where to go on vacation, Kansas is SO NOT on your list, lol. Maybe for Little House stuff? Even then I don't know. (Not offense meant to Kansans, lol.) Anyways, the convention speakers who were from Kansas AND from Canada both were talking up the joys and needs of coming there, that there were instant jobs for people who were qualified, that they just needed workers. 

Lol-- yep, if you love snow, we are the place to be!!  No movie theatres, bowling alleys, arcades, playplaces, McDonald's, or anything.  But if cold and icy makes you happy, come on over!!

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, NorthernBeth said:

I love the simplicity of this.  I will check this out.  We have been talking about this, but probably in a more long-winded way that was not as concise as he needed.

  I looked into the POPARD, you need a letter of employment in a BC school to take their course.  Even a certified teacher from BC who has no job cannot access their programs.  

My impression from their convention talk was they will come train your school district to work with your ds. Their BCBAs were really good, very on the ball. Keep trying. Like maybe just call 'em up and ask what they could do or ask your school to talk with them. Or will till your school's behaviorist meets with you and say hey some nut told me about Popard and see what she says.

I got the impression there was a lack of resources and that they had to be really careful with their time. I think that might explain what you're seeing there, sigh. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by PeterPan

[NorthernBeth]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Also, in the US at least, once the dc has autism, they'll give goals in math, reading, writing, etc. even without diagnosing SLDs. The reason is the autism is affecting the learning. There are language issues in math, inferencing and vocabulary issues in reading, structure and narrative language issues in writing, etc. So it's totally appropriate for you to be pushing for IEP goals and specialized instruction (if available) even if there are not SLDs diagnosed. The fact that he has autism is reason enough.

Problem is-- officially I can't get anyone to even test for autism.  I re-asked him counsellor about it and she basically said yes she still thinks he has autism or a collection of symptoms that are causing much the same problems autism would cause.  She is experienced like crazy and watching her try to do traditional talk therapy with him is so eye-opening.  If people could see that-- they might see what I am talking about.  He is talking to her with a pillow over his face, completely ignoring her questions and talking about completely off-topic conversation, without worry about whether anyone else is engaging, completely unable to imagine any goals for himself other than Mr. B needs to go away.  She later told me she has seen a book on how to use lego to do therapy.  As that is one of his main interests  ( Lego, Ninjago, Pokémon and Minecraft)  that might work.  She always keeps trying but she said flat out, he needs an ABA behaviourist, not her.  

[PeterPan]

Well it will be interesting to see what the school behaviorist can do. That will tell you a lot. And wow, if he's into lego, how ubiquitous and easy is that to bring into school!!! Absolutely, they can do narrative with lego, use lego as a motivator (play 10, work 5, rinse repeat). THAT is a way they can get the stress down, just massively increasing lego breaks that are WITH A WORKER and then begin interspersing work tasks and compliance tasks. That's your ABA.

I'm surprised the counselor isn't already busting out toys. The psych I'm using with my ds for counseling plays every session, absolutely. Most of the session is play and she works on her goals while they play.

[PeterPan]

Did you look into some of the online RBT training courses? They're around $200, and you could do that kind of work at home with him. You could do what I'm describing, playing and weaving in short work tasks. The behaviorist can make goals. But really, a lot of it is these basics like building rapport, building a relationship, making being WITH you so high value that he's motivated, getting some positive momentum.

We don't use tokens or items with my ds generally anymore, because he gets bored with them and jaded. We use relationship, where *I* am high value or the *worker* is high value and so he WANTS to be with them and comply to keep the interaction going. 

[NorthernBeth]

oh my goodness-- the way to A book is only available from one buyer for $399.  For a picture book???

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, NorthernBeth said:

oh my goodness-- the way to A book is only available from one buyer for $399.  For a picture book???

Oh no, don't buy it! Seriously, you don't need the book. It's just a concept and they let it out as a story with one sentence on each page. You don't need the book. Just take the concept and simplify and apply it to him. 

[NorthernBeth]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Did you look into some of the online RBT training courses? They're around $200, and you could do that kind of work at home with him. You could do what I'm describing, playing and weaving in short work tasks. The behaviorist can make goals. But really, a lot of it is these basics like building rapport, building a relationship, making being WITH you so high value that he's motivated, getting some positive momentum.

We don't use tokens or items with my ds generally anymore, because he gets bored with them and jaded. We use relationship, where *I* am high value or the *worker* is high value and so he WANTS to be with them and comply to keep the interaction going. 

Yeah, I saw you mention this in another thread and have just been sniffing around the idea wondering if I am crazy for thinking about taking it.  

Same thing here for tokens.  Right now our big motivators for school are that if he gets up early he can play video games before school ( which I would normally not allow in the mornings!) and we go pick up his best friend who would normally take the bus and we drive the both of them over to school together, so he has someone to walk onto the playground with.