Dog Behavior Help

[DesertBlossom]

Almost a year ago we got a 2-year-old Mastiff mix. His coloring looks like a mastiff, but he's about the size of a lab. My brother thought he could even be an Anatolian Shepherd. (just in case breed matters here) He was a little nervous and skittish at first, mostly because of my unpredictable 2-year-old. But he's warmed up to us great and tolerates the 2-year-old just fine now. I really love this dog. He's a sweet dog.  I wonder sometimes if he had been mistreated, but I'm no dog behavior expert. He barks at strangers, but usually from a distance. Like he ran outside to bark through the window the first time my FIL came over. Lol. He sounds intimidating though.

The only behavior that I worry about is that he barks at little kids that come to visit. Now, I want a dog that will bark at strangers. I don't care that he barks at people near the yard. I don't care that he barked at the sprinkler repairman (we put him inside then) because barking at a strange guy in the backyard is okay. There is enough sketchy activity in the area and my husband is gone enough that I want a dog that will bark and at least sound intimidating. Barking at my kids' friends, after they've come inside the house is not okay. We tell him it's a friend, but it makes him nervous. If I call him to me and tell him that it's fine, he won't come to me. He just stands back and barks. If necessary we send him outside because he scares the kids. I've tried to have the friend give him a treat, but he won't take treats from strangers. After the friend has been here for a bit, he gets over it and he's fine. I don't think he'd bite, but I'm not going to take any chances either. 

My son's friend came to visit today and came through our backyard. (Which he shouldn't have done without one of my kids meeting him at the gate.) I heard the dog bark so I ran to the door to see the friend running with the dog chasing behind barking. The poor kid was terrified. I called the dog back and everything was fine. The dog acted like he was in trouble and avoided me for a bit, but he's fine now. I told the friend to come through the front next time. 

Is it too much to expect a dog to differentiate between an adult stranger and a kid?  I suppose we might not keep him from barking at a friend that shows up unannounced in the backyard, but is there anything I can do to train him that little people in the house who clearly are not a threat, are not to be barked at? 

On the one hand, I'm glad he's finally accepted us and feels protective of us. But I also don't want him to bark at little kids.

[DesertBlossom]

Later DS and friend came down the stairs and the dog, who had been napping peacefully under the table barked his terrible bark and friend ran back up stairs. Clearly this 4 ft child was not a danger to the family, but why doesn't my dog believe that?

 

[laundrycrisis]

I wouldn’t count on training to correct this.  I would crate the dog anytime a child visits.  We have a dog that we crate for all visitors. 

[TheReader]

Following. We have a dog that I've been unsuccessful in training about this (he barks at the front door, period, and once you're in the house, he's fine.....but like your dog, if you go upstairs, and come back down, he may bark again). Ours absolutely has never, ever acted on it, and the best way to get him to quiet more quickly is to coach the visitor to just walk past the dog as though the dog does not exist, at all. No reaction or response, period. But I still am very embarrassed by the fact we have to coach the visitor rather than have our dog obey (or we put the dog in our bedroom while visitors are here). 

So, following. 

[Pen]

I think you need an in person *excellent* dog trainer / dog behaviorist to help you.   ASAP. For everyone’s sake including the dog’s.  

Until then I tend to agree with crating or bedroom isolating the dog when children are over  Also putting a lock on gate into your backyard to keep children from accidentally coming in that way  

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have a rottie mix. It’s a protective breed. I will crate her or put her outside if children come over. I socialize her on purpose with children but I also don’t expect her to just be ok with unpredictable children.   Your dog’s barking sounds like it is fear based. Your expectations of this dog are unrealistic. 

[DesertBlossom]

So a couple other friends just knocked on the door. The dog jumped up in anticipation so I tried to get him to come into our bedroom so I could shut him in there and he wouldn't come. This dog is mostly obedient, but then again, I don't ask him to do much. But he was questioning my motives so he wouldn't follow me. Even with a treat. (We've had this problem trying to get him back in the car-- if he doesn't have his leash on and he's not sure why you're taking him somewhere, he won't go.)  He ran outside and barked at the newcomers from a safe distance and is now sleeping.

We don't have a crate for him. Never have.

[DesertBlossom]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I have a rottie mix. It’s a protective breed. I will crate her or put her outside if children come over. I socialize her on purpose with children but I also don’t expect her to just be ok with unpredictable children.   Your dog’s barking sounds like it is fear based. Your expectations of this dog are unrealistic. 

 

What do you mean by unrealistic? I'm not going to be able to teach him not to bark at little kids? So I need to deal with the behavior another way. 

I will admit I am not a dog expert. We've had exactly 3 dogs in our married life, the first 2 being very laid back and otherwise obedient. (Australian Shepherd and Lab)

I don't have a crate. And attempts to get him to follow me into the bedroom were unsuccessful. He's more likely to run back outside, and I can lock him outside. But kids sometimes go in and out of the house. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

A dog that decides whether he is going to obey you or not is not an obedient dog. You need to hire a dog trainer to teach you how to interact with this dog. 

[DesertBlossom]

5 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

A dog that decides whether he is going to obey you or not is not an obedient dog. You need to hire a dog trainer to teach you how to interact with this dog. 

Fair enough. Any tips on how to pick one or what I should look for? A quick google search comes up with a lot in my area. I've read enough threads to know that not all dog training methods are equal.

[Pawz4me]

You need to get a crate. You need to teach him to at least tolerate it (hopefully to like it). And you need to do what Pen said and find a trainer who can come work with you and him. And you need to do this ASAP. This is behavior that you do NOT want to escalate. And you do NOT want a largish, powerful dog with protective instincts (or fearful--Jean very well could be right about that) who blows off commands.

I see lots of red flags here.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, DesertBlossom said:

Fair enough. Any tips on how to pick one or what I should look for? A quick google search comes up with a lot in my area. I've read enough threads to know that not all dog training methods are equal.

 

You need someone skilled with the type of dog you are dealing with (large, powerful, showing some sort of aggression, not trained).  This is way beyond, for example, a Petsmart group class. 

I would ask veterinarians and animal control for recommendations .  I would call and talk to possible trainers / behaviorists.  Maybe go watch them in action if possible. Ask for references from past clients with large aggressive dogs who have been helped. Possibly schedule initial visits with more than one who seem promising to go to with your dog. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Pen

[Pawz4me]

Start with your vet. He/she may be able to recommend someone. Also, look for local dog training clubs. They'd be able to point you to a good trainer who does private lessons.

[Pen]

Also if there is anyone in your area who trains dogs for law enforcement he or she may have the wherewithal to deal with a mastiff mix or Anatolian sort of dog displaying aggression or may know who in your area can do so. 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

I think you need an in person *excellent* dog trainer / dog behaviorist to help you.   ASAP. For everyone’s sake including the dog’s.  

Until then I tend to agree with crating or bedroom isolating the dog when children are over  Also putting a lock on gate into your backyard to keep children from accidentally coming in that way  

 

Yes, management ASAP. And Dog trainer who is experienced with aggression (which this is..or the start of it if it isn't dealt with.)

2 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

So a couple other friends just knocked on the door. The dog jumped up in anticipation so I tried to get him to come into our bedroom so I could shut him in there and he wouldn't come. This dog is mostly obedient, but then again, I don't ask him to do much. But he was questioning my motives so he wouldn't follow me. Even with a treat. (We've had this problem trying to get him back in the car-- if he doesn't have his leash on and he's not sure why you're taking him somewhere, he won't go.)  He ran outside and barked at the newcomers from a safe distance and is now sleeping.

We don't have a crate for him. Never have.

OH NO. Sorry. Nope. You do NOT let that dog do that. If that was my dog I'd grab his collar and make him do what I said. However, I'm not saying YOU should do that because without knowing the situation better you could be bitten if you try. 

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

A dog that decides whether he is going to obey you or not is not an obedient dog. You need to hire a dog trainer to teach you how to interact with this dog. 

So much this. Honestly, your first two breeds were dogs that are bred to follow human instruction and notoriously easy to train. You now have a possible livestock guarding dog or guard dog breed. Totally different kind of dog. You NEED an experienced trainer ASAP. Not trying to freak you out, this CAN probably be fixed, but if you do nothing is also VERY likely will get worse. As in, someone gets bitten worse, OR you can't have people over worse. Neither is good. 

As for unrealistic expectations, your dog no, will not know that kids are safe and friends are safe but burglars are not safe. He should be trained to stop barking immediately when told to, and to be accepting of any and all strangers. He will still be a deterrent, as a burglar won't KNOW that he's friendly, and won't want to risk it. But the fact is that you will have lots and lots of people in and out of your house, and probably never ever a burglar. So train him to handle the common stuff you know you have (people over) not the uncommon may never happen scenario (burglar). 

[DesertBlossom]

I texted my police officer brother (who has more experience with dogs) if he knows any trainers. He does know someone who trains security dogs and he's getting me the info. My brother, who has come over a lot and knows my dog, said he thought it was an anxiety issue. 

I also sent an info request for a couple dog trainers I found on google. One sent back a copy and paste reply and said his fee was $600 for four 60-90 minute sessions, each 3 weeks apart. Does that sounds like a reasonable rate? Just trying to get an idea.

 

[Pen]

Our trainer, who was capable of dealing with big aggressive dogs, was $50 per lesson for private lessons, but I cannot recall how long they were. Probably shorter  .  

You have a potential bite and serious liability scenario brewing— if you can afford someone’s rate go for excellence of trainer and who can help you fix the problem ASAP, not who is cheapest. 

[Pen]

And it may well be an anxiety issue. O 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

the first time my FIL came over. Lol. He sounds intimidating though.

The only behavior that I worry about is that he barks at little kids that come to visit. Now, I want a dog that will bark at strangers. I don't care that he barks at people near the yard. I don't care that he barked at the sprinkler repairman (we put him inside then) because barking at a strange guy in the backyard is okay. There is enough sketchy activity in the area and my husband is gone enough that I want a dog that will bark and at least sound intimidating. 

 

This is not an LOL situation.

Start caring.

Your attitude and fears about sketchy people are very likely adding to your dog feeling fearful. 

I would prefer a dog to bark rather than to be discouraged from barking and going straight to a bite.

 But this is a very potentially dangerous situation  

It would be far better for your dog to feel comfortable with a sprinkler repair man  and/or to put your dog inside before sprinkler repairman arrives rather than after he starts barking    And act like *you*are in charge of the situation, not a fearful lower level pack member waiting for your dog to be the one to take care of household safety . 

 

[Innisfree]

Make sure your brother, given his police background, doesn't steer you toward guard dog training. Have you read up on Anatolian shepherds, since that may be what you have?

Quoting a few sources which describe behavior very much like you have listed:

Because the breed tends to be wary toward others and instinctively protective, an Anatolian puppy must be socialized. Obedience training is a must with the breed. The Anatolian was bred to work independently, make decisions on his own, and protect his flock from outsiders, and training the breed to respond to commands can be a challenge. Under no circumstances should an Anatolian receive protection or guard-dog training.

https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/anatolian-shepherd-dog/

 

The Anatolian is a giant breed who originated as a livestock guardian in Turkey. He is highly protective, and ownership of him should not be entered into lightly. He is suspicious of strangers and aggressive toward unknown dogs. He is not a child’s pet.

http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/anatolian-shepherd

 

Anatolian Temperament and Personality

The Anatolian is a large dog with a protective and territorial nature. He is intelligent, serious and stubborn, intent on doing his job. Despite his heritage as an independent flock guardian, however, he is not a solitary dog and appreciates the companionship of his family, including other animals -- when he is raised with them. Strangers and strays will not receive any kind of welcome, though. Warn the neighbors that if their pets come onto your property, they may not leave it alive....

Introduce the Anatolian to other pets in the home while he is still very young. Anatolians who are brought up with other animals from puppyhood become protective of them, but an adult Anatolian brought into the family is unlikely to bond with other pets.

Anatolians are highly protective of children in their own family, but that doesn’t necessarily carry over to other people’s children. Always supervise the Anatolian when visiting children are around. If the dog sees the neighbors’ kids roughhousing with your kids, he may interpret their play as a threat and intercede.

Be firm, confident and consistent when training this breed. The Anatolian needs a leader he can respect. That doesn’t mean taking a heavy hand. Hitting should never be an option. The breed responds well to tone of voice. And avoid roughhousing. Never permit the Anatolian to play roughly with or put his teeth on other animals or people, especially children.

http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/anatolian-shepherd#personality

 

Assuming, on the other hand, that you are dealing with anxiety instead of livestock guard dog behavior, what you want is still not security training. Obedience training, with positive reinforcement, no dominance theory stuff, would be a good starting point, but as others have said, you need a very good trainer. I'd try to find a behaviorist if possible. Your vet might have resources.

[ktgrok]

Also, guard dog/security dog people are used to working with very specific breeds, and specific lines within those breeds - aka very high drive dogs. They can be excellent at that, but not very good with lower drive, nervous, insecure dogs which it sounds like you may have. 

You need someone that works with everyday pets. 

And no, I would not go with a trainer that only expects to see you every 3 weeks! That's madness. 

[DesertBlossom]

9 minutes ago, Pen said:

And it may well be an anxiety issue. O 

I'm trying not be sensitive about people calling it agressive behavior. His body language isn't aggressive.  After this thread and more thought, I really think it's anxiety or fear. He might bite if cornered, but he's more likely to run away than charge. 

I don't consider myself a dog person, but I have surprised myself with how much I love this dang dog. I understand that he needs more training and am willing to do that. 

[Innisfree]

First, hugs. You are doing the right thing by asking about this.

See, the thing is that aggressive behavior is often driven by fearful emotions. So, saying that the dog is fearful or anxious actually suggests that it's more dangerous, not less.

That's not to say he can't be a great dog. But he needs help. First you need to get some help figuring out what is driving his behavior; then you can work on appropriate training.

If he's fearful, you'll need to increase his confidence. It might surprise you to know that obedience training can be really good for that, because the dog gains confidence once he knows what is expected of him.

But if he is actually super-confident and protective, he needs to learn where his responsibilities end, and even more important, you need to learn how to handle him. Dogs like livestock guard dogs are challenging to own and train, even though they are wonderful dogs in their own way.

[DesertBlossom]

24 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

This is not an LOL situation.

Start caring.

Your attitude and fears about sketchy people are very likely adding to your dog feeling fearful. 

I would prefer a dog to bark rather than to be discouraged from barking and going straight to a bite.

 

I do care. Very much. Hence the thread. Thank you. 

The lol was because he ran outside before barking. It seemed funny in the moment. My ILs stayed for several days and he was fine with them the whole time. We've taken him camping with my extended family (lots of kids and other dogs around) and he did just fine around everyone. I never had any concerns. None. 

The house we just moved into (that was completely remodeled) was previously inhabited by drug using squatters who tried to come back several times while we were remodeling. I'm not doing anything to encourage his barking but I am a-okay with him barking at someone who hops our fence. (Currently a hypothetical, but not unrealistic in our neighborhood). If he barks I do need him to come when I call him back, which is my main concern right now. 

 

[Innisfree]

He is a beautiful dog! Have you compared him with Anatolian shepherds pictures online? I can see what your brother means.

[DesertBlossom]

21 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

First, hugs. You are doing the right thing by asking about this.

See, the thing is that aggressive behavior is often driven by fearful emotions. So, saying that the dog is fearful or anxious actually suggests that it's more dangerous, not less.

I just meant that he'd be more likely to bark and run away than to ever charge someone. He also barks at me (and it sounds the same) when he wants me to play with him in the yard. It's a friendly bark, if there is such a thing. He sometimes vocalizes like a husky when he wants something. 

[DesertBlossom]

8 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

He is a beautiful dog! Have you compared him with Anatolian shepherds pictures online? I can see what your brother means.

Thank you! And yes, I looked up the pictures. I had never heard of it before my brother mentioned it. I really have no idea what breed he is. It's a guess. He's 65 pounds and both Mastiffs and Anatolians are much, much bigger. A couple people have said his body type looked like he has Husky in him, and the way he sometimes vocalizes makes me think he could be part Husky. He a mix of several breeds, probably. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by DesertBlossom

[ktgrok]

52 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I'm trying not be sensitive about people calling it agressive behavior. His body language isn't aggressive.  After this thread and more thought, I really think it's anxiety or fear. He might bite if cornered, but he's more likely to run away than charge. 

I don't consider myself a dog person, but I have surprised myself with how much I love this dang dog. I understand that he needs more training and am willing to do that. 

Oh, I'm so sorry, I don't mean to make it sound like he isn't a good dog in other ways. But fear aggression is actually one type of aggression, perhaps the most common. He's acting in self defense perhaps, but that doesn't mean he won't bite. If the person he's barking at doesn't stop or go away, and keeps approaching him, it is very possible he will bite at some point, if he can't retreat. 

Probably most dog bites are by fearful dogs. 

But again, this is something you can address and work on, for sure. In the meantime, try not to let him practice this behavior. Everytime he does it he gets better at it, it ingrains the behavior. So close the blinds so he doesn't see people outside, keep him put away when people come over, etc. 

[Pen]

34 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I do care. Very much. Hence the thread. Thank you. 

The lol was because he ran outside before barking. It seemed funny in the moment. My ILs stayed for several days and he was fine with them the whole time. We've taken him camping with my extended family (lots of kids and other dogs around) and he did just fine around everyone. I never had any concerns. None. 

The house we just moved into (that was completely remodeled) was previously inhabited by drug using squatters who tried to come back several times while we were remodeling. I'm not doing anything to encourage his barking but I am a-okay with him barking at someone who hops our fence. (Currently a hypothetical, but not unrealistic in our neighborhood). If he barks I do need him to come when I call him back, which is my main concern right now. 

 

 

Yes. Beautiful dog! Whatever he is. 

 I am concerned because the scenario you have described is one that I have had experience with moving into biting.  

I get the LOL now, I didn’t realize that fil was inside and dog went outside to bark .   And as I said, I  personally would probably not try to stop the barking because I would prefer a vocal warning to a bite, and I do understand sketchy neighborhoods.  

It is very hard, however, not to consider a dog chasing a child and barking as not behaving aggressively. I realize it could be herding behavior  in a herding breed. Or a retrieving breed tendency to chase anything that moves quickly.  But on its face I would tend to think there is a predatory aggressive drive there. 

And his behaviors are not separable into good dog you barked at the sprinkler repair man; bad dog you should not bark at child friends. 

And I agree that fear aggression is a very common form of aggression. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Pen

[Pen]

Also to consider, your dog is around the age of being a full fledged adult rather than an adolescent/young adult. So he may have changes in how he experiences himself and his place in the world.  If there is a power vacuum in your household pack, he may feel he needs to take leadership role, even if he is an insecure fearful dog and would rather have you be in charge. 

[DesertBlossom]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

Yes. Beautiful dog! Whatever he is. 

 I am concerned because the scenario you have described is one that I have had experience with moving into biting.  

I get the LOL now, I didn’t realize that fil was inside and dog went outside to bark .   And as I said, I  personally would probably not try to stop the barking because I would prefer a vocal warning to a bite, and I do understand sketchy neighborhoods.  

It is very hard, however, not to consider a dog chasing a child and barking as not behaving aggressively. I realize it could be herding behavior  in a herding breed. Or a retrieving breed tendency to chase anything that moves quickly.  But on its face I would tend to think there is a predatory aggressive drive there. 

And his behaviors are not separable into good dog you barked at the sprinkler repair man; bad dog you should not bark at child friends. 

Knowing this dog, it really did not feel like predatory aggressiveness. At all. If I felt that way at all, I would be finding another home for him ASAP. 

And I completely understand that a scared dog will bite. I would expect any scared dog to bite if he felt cornered. He doesn't bark at people through windows. He never barks at the doorbell. Once I saw him bark at kids walking past the back fence. (It was short and to the point) When new people come over and he barks it's more... I can't find the right word.... Warning? Announcing? A "Hey, I don't know you" kind of a bark. His posture is not at all aggressive. When I tell him "it's okay" he acts like he's in trouble and runs off. Sometimes he'll come back into the room and be just fine with whoever is here. For the sprinkler man, I told him "it's okay" and sent him inside. I didn't encourage the barking but didn't act like he was in trouble either.

[DesertBlossom]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

Also to consider, your dog is around the age of being a full fledged adult rather than an adolescent/young adult. So he may have changes in how he experiences himself and his place in the world.  If there is a power vacuum in your household pack, he may feel he needs to take leadership role, even if he is an insecure fearful dog and would rather have you be in charge. 

Admittedly I don't know enough about dog behavior to do know what to do with this information. Other than that he needs more training. He's an otherwise easy going dog who lays around most of the day. My only other beef with him is that he steals poopy diapers, which we've solved by not leaving them in bathroom garbage cans. He tugs on his leash, which we need to work on. But he almost always comes when called or goes out when told. He used to run off when the front door was opened, but we solved that by teaching him to come back to us with treats. Now he usually stands at the front door if it's opened but won't go outside unless I tell him to. (He has a doggy door out the back and comes and goes as he wants)  We've taught him a couple commands like sit and shake. He hasn't been a difficult dog at all.  When we've been camping or taken him to the mountains, he doesn't approach strangers, but he doesn't show any concerning behavior either around new people. This is specifically at home that he does this.

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Knowing this dog, it really did not feel like predatory aggressiveness. At all. If I felt that way at all, I would be finding another home for him ASAP. 

And I completely understand that a scared dog will bite. I would expect any scared dog to bite if he felt cornered. He doesn't bark at people through windows. He never barks at the doorbell. Once I saw him bark at kids walking past the back fence. (It was short and to the point) When new people come over and he barks it's more... I can't find the right word.... Warning? Announcing? A "Hey, I don't know you" kind of a bark. His posture is not at all aggressive. When I tell him "it's okay" he acts like he's in trouble and runs off. Sometimes he'll come back into the room and be just fine with whoever is here. For the sprinkler man, I told him "it's okay" and sent him inside. I didn't encourage the barking but didn't act like he was in trouble either.

He still shouldn't be doing that to people you let in. 

[DesertBlossom]

14 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

He still shouldn't be doing that to people you let in. 

I know. Hence the thread. I am just trying to give an overall picture of his behavior. 

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, DesertBlossom said:

I do care. Very much. Hence the thread. Thank you. 

The lol was because he ran outside before barking. It seemed funny in the moment. My ILs stayed for several days and he was fine with them the whole time. We've taken him camping with my extended family (lots of kids and other dogs around) and he did just fine around everyone. I never had any concerns. None. 

The house we just moved into (that was completely remodeled) was previously inhabited by drug using squatters who tried to come back several times while we were remodeling. I'm not doing anything to encourage his barking but I am a-okay with him barking at someone who hops our fence. (Currently a hypothetical, but not unrealistic in our neighborhood). If he barks I do need him to come when I call him back, which is my main concern right now. 

 

Cute pup!

If you just moved into a new house, he's likely trying to figure out how things fit together. He didn't have any of these problems at your other house?

We have 2 60 lb dogs that used to jump at the windows when someone's in the yard; most of our blinds have damaged because of this. Closing the blinds only encouraged the dogs to push them out of the way. We ended up putting up opaque window film on the bottom quarter of the window so they couldn't see out, but it was low enough that we can see over it. We also had a side light next to the door that we covered. The dogs don't respond as aggressively now, but they're still aware of someone (or something) outside.

[Pen]

21 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Admittedly I don't know enough about dog behavior to do know what to do with this information. Other than that he needs more training. He's an otherwise easy going dog who lays around

 

You both need training. 

[DesertBlossom]

9 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

Cute pup!

If you just moved into a new house, he's likely trying to figure out how things fit together. He didn't have any of these problems at your other house?

He did this before too.  But he'd bark and then go outside. We didn't have a glass back door so he couldn't see back in. He has never cared about looking through the front windows. He could get up and look out if he was so inclined, and we get a fair amount of foot traffic in the front. But he doesn't care.

[DesertBlossom]

We've had a fair amount of strangers over the last couple months (workers finishing up remodel stuff) and if he barks he gets sent outside (or leaves on his own accord) and it's a non-issue. Grown men aren't usually worried about it. But he scares little kids when he barks. And the kids stay longer they want to go in and out of the house. I was hoping for a way to teach/train him to know that the same kid who just reappeared from the playroom is still a friend and he doesn't need to bark again. The kids who come over more often he's less inclined to bark at more than once.  Unless it's been a while since they were here. The kids that were over today have only been over once before. This is also the first time a child has entered our backyard from the gate unaccompanied by one of my children. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by DesertBlossom

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

We've had a fair amount of strangers over the last couple months (workers finishing up remodel stuff) and if he barks he gets sent outside (or leaves on his own accord) and it's a non-issue. Grown men aren't usually worried about it. But he scares little kids when he barks. And the kids stay longer they want to go in and out of the house. I was hoping for a way to teach/train him to know that the same kid who just reappeared from the playroom is still a friend and he doesn't need to bark again. The kids who come over more often he's less inclined to bark at more than once. The kids that were over today have only been over once before.

 

It is conceivably possible.

We had a dog who learned the command, “manners,” which meant he was supposed to meet and greet in a pleasant gentleman dog sort of way. 

I would use “manners” with any expected person though. Not exclude a sprinkler repair man. Druggies climbing the fence, no.  

 

And the dog was not making his own decisions about whether a kid did or did not need to be barked at. He was under “manners” command before kid arrived and each time he would see kid—or anyone else. Sort of like not expecting dog to know if he is supposed to stay or not with out being told. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Pen

[DesertBlossom]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

It is conceivably possible. We had a dog who learned the command, “manners,” which meant he was supposed to meet and greet in a pleasant gentleman dog sort of way.  

This would be great. I am okay with a "you're a new person and I don't know you bark" announcing their arrival. I am/was hoping to be able to teach him that if I'm okay this stranger's presence, that he can be okay with it too. Sometimes he doesn't care. Sometimes he'll even come back and join us in the room and lay on the floor. But sometimes he wants to bark every time he sees a kid.  I'm coming to terms with the fact that I may not be able to teach him that if it's a fear/anxiety issue. But those are also the times he won't come to me when I ask him to.  I could send him out of the house, but he wouldn't come back into my room (a room he isn't normally invited into) so that the kids could go in and out as they pleased.  

[DesertBlossom]

32 minutes ago, Pen said:

And the dog was not making his own decisions about whether a kid did or did not need to be barked at. He was under “manners” command before kid arrived and each time he would see kid—or anyone else. Sort of like not expecting dog to know if he is supposed to stay or not with out being told. 

This makes a lot of sense. I do need training. Because I don't know how to teach that.

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

This would be great. I am okay with a "you're a new person and I don't know you bark" announcing their arrival. I am/was hoping to be able to teach him that if I'm okay this stranger's presence, that he can be okay with it too. Sometimes he doesn't care. Sometimes he'll even come back and join us in the room and lay on the floor. But sometimes he wants to bark every time he sees a kid.  I'm coming to terms with the fact that I may not be able to teach him that if it's a fear/anxiety issue. But those are also the times he won't come to me when I ask him to.  I could send him out of the house, but he wouldn't come back into my room (a room he isn't normally invited into) so that the kids could go in and out as they pleased.  

Honestly, that is a LOT to ask of a dog. You are much better off training him to accept people calmly in the house/yard, period. Again, the odds are that no one bad will ever come in your house, and if they did, seeing a large dog would be a deterrent even if he was not barking at them. The much greater risk here is not from a stranger but from your dog hurting a kid or other visitor. Train for the situation that is more likely, you know?

There are people who  train guard dogs who claim the dogs have an "on/off" switch for their protective behavior. But you know what, they get sued all that time because sometimes the dog messes up. Not that long ago a child was killed by a rottweiler that came from such a place. It was the family's own child. 

Any good trainer will tell you NOT to try to get the dog to be protective. At all. Because protective can sometimes get confused with aggressive and you have a bite on your hands. Asking the dog to distinguish is just not fair to them. Can some dogs? Probably, but it's probably more innate behavior than training, and you didn't get one of those dogs ?

A good book to read might be Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. It goes into a lot of this, about how dogs think/learn, what makes them bite, etc. 

[ktgrok]

And it does sound like this escalated either from moving (stress/anxiety) or from the dog hitting social maturity age (around 2 yrs old). 

Also, how much socialization did this dog get? 

[Pawz4me]

44 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Honestly, that is a LOT to ask of a dog. You are much better off training him to accept people calmly in the house/yard, period. Again, the odds are that no one bad will ever come in your house, and if they did, seeing a large dog would be a deterrent even if he was not barking at them. The much greater risk here is not from a stranger but from your dog hurting a kid or other visitor. Train for the situation that is more likely, you know?

There are people who  train guard dogs who claim the dogs have an "on/off" switch for their protective behavior. But you know what, they get sued all that time because sometimes the dog messes up. Not that long ago a child was killed by a rottweiler that came from such a place. It was the family's own child. 

Any good trainer will tell you NOT to try to get the dog to be protective. At all. Because protective can sometimes get confused with aggressive and you have a bite on your hands. Asking the dog to distinguish is just not fair to them. Can some dogs? Probably, but it's probably more innate behavior than training, and you didn't get one of those dogs ?

A good book to read might be Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. It goes into a lot of this, about how dogs think/learn, what makes them bite, etc. 

^^This. 1000 times.^^

I think most people who think they want a protective dog really have no good concept of what that means in terms of owner responsibility and liability and the constant amount of management required to responsibly own a protective dog. I grew up with protection trained GSDs and Dobies. Privately trained dogs that cost $$$$$, the type that celebrities and very wealthy people sometimes have. And still I was clueless enough when I was younger to get a Rottie of my own. I do not want a protective dog ever again. The Rottie was the worst dog mistake I ever made (not bashing the breed at all--but I was young and despite growing up with my grandparents' guard dogs I still didn't fully understand the enormity of the responsibility of owning a dog like that myself). It was SO much training and management. It's way more work and responsibility than I want at this point in my life, or that I've ever come anywhere close to actually needing.

I think you would be making a big mistake to encourage your dog to be protective. I'd be doing every thing I could to socialize him and train him to be accepting. Don't worry. IME most dogs, even the gentlest, will tend to protect its people if push comes to shove.

[DesertBlossom]

I think you guys are misunderstanding my expectations for this dog. I'm not asking how to train him to be more protective. I'm not asking that he learn that he's supposed to bark at some people at not supposed to bark at others. I'm not asking to train him how to bark more. 

Every dog I've ever met barks. My lab barked at people walking by the fence but as soon as a stranger was in the backyard, she thought she'd made a new friend. My dad's little dog barks every time the doorbell rings and when he hears me come in the house. Then he sees me and he's all "oh, you again" and goes back to his sleeping spot. 

When I say I am okay with him barking I mean that dogs bark at strange people near their homes and I don't find that problematic. I also assume that if I jump into someone's backyard, any dog is likely to feel a little protective. But I'm not asking for help in training him to be a menacing guard dog and to be more protective. The protective of his yard and people part comes naturally. Because dogs. (Do the rest of you seriously have dogs that never bark? Ever? Like at all?)

I came here asking for help for one specific problem behavior for an otherwise easy going, gentle dog and, as often happens on these boards, some people respond by taking the small bit of background info and assuming the worst possible scenario.

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by DesertBlossom

[DesertBlossom]

And for the love, please don't misunderstand my use of the word "protective." This is not a rottweiler or pit bull. I'm not asking or hoping that this dog take down a druggie that jumps the fence.

I use "protective" the same way I would describe my dad's small breed mutt who barks at people at the door (or when he doesn't hear me come in and is surprised) and then chills out and goes back to sleep. His barking, IMO, is entirely appropriate in that scenario, and quite frankly helpful since my dad's hearing isn't all that good. But I certainly don't expect his geriatric lap dog to take down intruders. But he's protective of his space and his people and his barking is not problematic. 

I am thoroughly confused by the your notion that a dog (who is instictively protective) can not be taught that a stranger in the house is okay and not to be barked out since that describes, literally, almost every dog I have ever met.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by DesertBlossom

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is how I trained my Rottie/German Shepherd mix.  (The breed isn't so important except as that she has the instincts of two guard breeds.) 

I socialized her to meet all sorts of people (young, old, able-bodied, disabled, with strollers, without, with canes, without etc.)on the street.  At first she barked out of fear with some people in some situations.  I trained her not to bark at them by telling her to sit and rewarding her for that.  I let her see that these people were not going to hurt her.  If someone wanted to pet her then I handed them some training treats and let them treat her.  In the 7 months I've had her (she's 9 months old now), she's finally comfortable with pretty much anyone coming up to her.  I took her to a local festival yesterday and she didn't shy away from or bark at anyone.  A lot of kids wanted to pet her and she sat and let them. 

I have trained her not to bark at the neighbors or her pets.  If she barked, I told her to stop.  I treated her when she did.  I let her meet the neighbors.  I distracted her with toys or treats so that they became no big deal.

I socialized her to meet all sorts of people in our home.  I gave our visitors treats to give her (after she was in a sit-stay.)  If the visitor was too young or too old to be safely around her when she was being trained, I crated her or put her outside.  She does not bark at our visitors anymore.

I socialized her to meet all sorts of dogs.  I took her to puppy playdates.  I trained her in regular obedience training.  I trained her to sit when a dog approaches on our walk.  Before she was reliable, I asked other dog owners to just keep going because she was "in training".  Now she can meet other well trained dogs with no problem.  If I see an untrained dog who is barking or not obeying it's owner's commands, then we keep going.  (For awhile this was a big problem and I asked for advice on this forum.  What worked, was using a distraction technique where I got her to follow me and a treat away from whatever it was that she was barking at.)

So no, she does not bark at strange people near our home.  And no, she does not bark at our visitors.  And no, she does not bark at our neighbors.  And no, she does not bark at other dogs.  If she did, I would feel like I did a poor job because it is my job to socialize her to the environment in which we live. 

Find a local trainer who will train you to train your dog . One or two hours a week would be good. 

[ktgrok]

51 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 

I think you would be making a big mistake to encourage your dog to be protective. I'd be doing every thing I could to socialize him and train him to be accepting. Don't worry. IME most dogs, even the gentlest, will tend to protect its people if push comes to shove.

Yes. Look at it like how they teach law enforcement to identify counterfeit bills - not by looking at bad ones but by getting REALLY good at spotting real money. So expose and socialize and train the dog to be okay around lots and lots of different good people, and chances are once he is comfortable with all of them, he may spot the difference if a bad situation happens. But don't train for the bad situation, or expect him to be protective. And meter man or sprinkler guy in the yard is not a bad situation. It could not only be a safety issue, but sometimes people hurt dogs that bark at them like that, using mace/pepper spray or worse. 

[ktgrok]

I think what we mean is, given that he is also barking at people inside, you are better off teaching him not to do it at all, rather than expecting him to learn the difference of when it is and isn't okay. Because this isn't a lab, and it's personality is different than your last dogs'. 

[Pen]

 

15 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes. Look at it like how they teach law enforcement to identify counterfeit bills - not by looking at bad ones but by getting REALLY good at spotting real money. So expose and socialize and train the dog to be okay around lots and lots of different good people, and chances are once he is comfortable with all of them, he may spot the difference if a bad situation happens. But don't train for the bad situation, or expect him to be protective. And meter man or sprinkler guy in the yard is not a bad situation. It could not only be a safety issue, but sometimes people hurt dogs that bark at them like that, using mace/pepper spray or worse. 

 

This fits an experience I had. 

A beloved Rottweiler of mine, before they were taken over as a breed to use for aggression, was more sweet and affectionate, especially with children, than any Golden Retriever I have known, and rarely barked for any reason, including not at mail carriers, UPS, etc., but rather greeted everyone with joy and much wagging. 

  Then, when she was around 5 years old, One day 2 guys with a Gun arrived on my doorstep with story that their car broke down and they needed to use the phone— and she barked angrily and growled.  It was a bit dicey for a time when I feared they would use the gun on my dog, but they left and disappeared.  

ETA   And the dog returned to her usual welcoming personality for the rest of her too short life—this included at one point happily welcoming an insurance agent who tested her by climbing the fence to make sure she wasn’t a potential liability. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Pen