Dog Behavior Help

[Pen]

My current dog barks.  But, aside from overmarking his trash can, the mail box support, and favorite trees, when other dogs mark them, I would not describe him as protective. 

 

2 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

The protective of his yard and people part comes naturally. Because dogs. (Do the rest of you seriously have dogs that never bark? Ever? Like at all?)

 

He barks. Especially in his sleep.

But he is 3/4 Lab and is usually cavorting joyfully, playbowing,  and wagging his tail.  He is neither fearful nor protective though does tend be over enthusiastic. Iit tends not to be a problem, except  at vet clinics, which we are working on. 

His general friendliness, breed, lack of either fearfulness or “protectiveness” —and that we live rurally, tend to make his barking fairly acceptable.  Also tend to get it rewarded as in UPS people giving him cookies while he is barking, vet receptionist vocalizing with him and petting his ears . ...

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, DesertBlossom said:

use "protective" the same way I would describe my dad's small breed mutt who barks at people at the door (or when he doesn't hear me come in and is surprised) and then chills out and goes back to sleep. His barking, IMO, is entirely appropriate in that scenario, and quite frankly helpful since my dad's hearing isn't all that good. But I certainly don't expect his geriatric lap dog to take down intruders. But he's protective of his space and his people and his barking is not problematic. 

 

But that is not the way your dog is. And those are not your dog’s circumstances. 

Your dog is gorgeous and I presume nice with his family, and that you and your family love him very much.

He has also demonstrated fearful and other worrisome behaviors.  Eliminate for a moment that he is your dear dog and think how you might feel if your child were the one visiting someone else and their dog chased and barked at (and terrified) your child .  

 It is bad enough that he has frightened a child. It would be horrible if he bit or mauled a friend of your children. Horrible for your dog too.  Don’t ask more of him than he is capable of.  And not good if he bites a sprinkler repair man either  

Maybe some trainer or behaviorist can help you achieve what you want.  

But it may be impossible for a fearful fairly large dog with some possible livestock protection breed lineage to be able to do what you want.

Whatever he is, he is not a little old lap dog. So keep him and everyone else safe. 

[Pen]

@Margaret in CO

 

The primary issue with the dog as I see it is not that he is barking, but that he has once or twice terrified visiting children by chasing them and barking at them. 

 

And this dog is not in good command control of the owner. When he has gotten ?fearful?(apparently) he has not responded. 

Also they aren’t as I understand it on a farm.  

Assuming he is part LGB, what would you suggest?

[DesertBlossom]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

@Margaret in CO

 

The primary issue with the dog as I see it is not that he is barking, but that he has once or twice terrified visiting children by chasing them and barking at them. 

 

And this dog is not in good command control of the owner. When he has gotten ?fearful?(apparently) he has not responded. 

Also they aren’t as I understand it on a farm.  

Assuming he is part LGB, what would you suggest?

Yes, I don't want him barking at kids. At all. And I don't want him barking at people I invite over. When I said I was okay with him barking at the sprinkler guy, I meant I told the dog it was okay, sent him inside and that was that. But it wasn't problematic enough to be posting here about it either. I didn't reward the dog for barking. When a repairman comes, if the dog barks I send him out. Sometimes he doesn't care enough to get up from his sleeping spot. He barks sometimes at people walking on the road behind the house, but it's not obsessive or excessive.  Ultimately I do need him to listen to me the first time when told not to bark. 

I think kids that are in and out and up and down are more in his space. Also, he only has to bark once to scare a kid. We have kids over fairly often and he doesn't bark at every kid every time sees them in the house. Part of the reason he wouldn't listen to me yesterday was because I tried to put him in my bedroom, which he knows he's not normally allowed to be in. It was literally the very first time I'd ever done that. So fail on my part too. 

He ran behind the boy barking that came into the yard by himself yesterday and it was the first time he'd ever done that. He wouldn't have bit the kid. He stopped right when I told him to, we let the friend inside and I kept the dog out. A while later friend and DS went outside the dog barked at him again so friend didn't want to go out again. I absolutely need him to stop that behavior. But, and you'll just have to believe me, it doesn't feel aggressive. It's more announcing. I just need him to stop announcing when I tell him too.

Edited September 9, 2018 by DesertBlossom

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Yes, I don't want him barking at kids. At all. And I don't want him barking at people I invite over. When I said I was okay with him barking at the sprinkler guy, I meant I told the dog it was okay, sent him inside and that was that.

 

I find that confusing, and I am not a dog. Does your dog understand what is okay and for that matter what “okay” means? It is ok to bark? It is okay to feel anxiety or whatever he is feeling? The man is okay?  

 A stranger comes. There is stress. His human says “okay” a word he doesn’t understand probably.  He is sent inside.  I doubt the dog feels like things are okay in that situation. 

2 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

 

But it wasn't problematic enough to be posting here about it either.

But they aren’t separate in the dog’s life. 

2 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

When a repairman comes, if the dog barks I send him out. He barks sometimes at people walking on the road behind the house, but it's not obsessive or excessive. Ultimately I do need him to listen to me the first time when told not to bark. 

You may need to train /use something else. Does he know “sit” reliably?  “Look at me.”  “Down”.  “Leave it.”  “Place”.  ?    So that he has something he can do when strangers come that he can succeed at.   Instead of strangers mysteriously resulting in confusing responses from you. He might be considered good for barking (he will know you are pleased even if you don’t say it) sometimes, and very bad, in trouble, for barking other times. What is a poor dog to do?

Id probably find some people who can help deliberately come to door while I told dog thank you for a single woof, then asked him to sit, look at me, lie down (or go to his place and lie down there) — and Id reward him lavishly for each part. 

When he could cope with an adult properly, I’d work on what he is supposed to do with a child present —very specifically and with participant children cooperating,  not randomly as visitors happen to come. 

2 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I think kids that are in and out and up and down are more in his space and increase his anxiety.

 

About anxiety at end. 

2 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Part of the reason he wouldn't listen to me yesterday was because I tried to put him in my bedroom, which he knows he's not normally allowed to be in.

So more and more confusion. 

 

One major problem I see is that you cannot train a dog not to be anxious. I don’t really think you can train a person not be anxious either,  but you could at least reason with a person. 

Instead all the confusion is likely to create more anxiety in an already anxious dog—and a lot of it anxiety that somehow relates to visitors, especially children, but probably way beyond his dog brain to figure out how to reduce his own anxiety or to figure out what he is expected to do.  

Meanwhile he probably picks up on your anxiety about druggies and others. And also your anxiety about him around children, but he may think it is the children who are dangerous and causing you to give off anxiety signals. 

 

In addition to finding excellent in person help, look for Calming Signals dvd. 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 A stranger comes. There is stress. His human says “okay” a word he doesn’t understand probably.  He is sent inside.  I doubt the dog feels like things are okay in that situation. 

 

I’d rather see something like he is told to sit and does so — gets praise and treat. He is told to lie down and does so (and does not bark while lying down) — gets praised and treat. Possibly for a while as he continues to lie down and you talk about the sprinkler with the repair person while petting and treating dog. Then He is told to heel and does so, and goes happily to house with his you — and gets yet more praise and treat for his cooperative heeling  

He would then start to form some sense of the visitor as “okay” in dog understood ways, namely good things happen to him when he obeys you while a visitor is present. 

[DesertBlossom]

@Pen Your last couple posts have been extremely helpful and the kind of explicit instruction/guidance I was hoping for when I started this thread. 

When I tell him "it's okay" if he barks at someone, my tone is neither anxious nor angry. I'm attempting to let the dog know that hey, I'm okay with this person, you can be too. Thank you for helping me see how that may be unclear or confusing for the dog. I have never deliberately rewarded him for barking at a person, nor scolded him. Sending him inside or out, I thought, was just a diversion. He doesn't usually get sent inside or out as a punishment.  Just a "hey, let's go outside" said in a comfortable tone.  I realize now how that may be confusing for him when there is a strange person at the house and I appreciate your suggestions.

He knows how to sit, lay down, speak, come, etc. He doesn't have a specific place in the house to go lie down. He has a dog bed he never lays on, but rather spends his days lying somewhere on the floor or asking for belly rubs with an occasional jaunt outside to see what's going on. He's pretty easy going and doesn't have any other problem behaviors in the house. I feel like he's usually pretty obedient, but I really don't ask him to do much. 

The idea that I could train him to lie at my feet until I told him otherwise, or to go lie in his "spot" just never occurred to me as our general activities don't require it.  But I can see how that would be helpful in this situation. 

Because he does seem anxious about new people over, I think I may start by putting his otherwise unused dog bed in a corner of our bedroom and practice having him go in there with a treat when I ask him, so I can shut the door. And so it's not so surprising when I do it when someone comes over. 

I will still look into a trainer to help. I am quite pleased with myself for teaching him to come back when called when he was out the front door (instead of running off and playing keep away like he did the first few times) but otherwise I'm not much of a dog trainer. 
 

Edited September 9, 2018 by DesertBlossom

[Pawz4me]

I'd consider using a different word/phrase than "it's okay."

Okay is used so very frequently in our speech that I think it can be needlessly confusing to some dogs. I prefer to use much less common words.

[Pen]

20 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

come, etc. He doesn't have a specific place in the house to go lie down. He has a dog bed he never lays on, but rather spends his days

 

My previously mentioned sweet Rottweiler had a portable fleece mat that was her “place”. It could be used in a hotel room, at a picnic at a park,  on a couch, anywhere around home,  in or out.  It was very convenient. 

Asking your dog to do more May help his confidence in addition to giving you more control when needed. 

I don’t usually think toward clicker training for a problem like chasing children, but you might look into it as a way of working with your dog generally and shaping some semi-complex behaviors like going to a mat. 

[Pen]

Not only a treat, but a good chew like a bully stick might be helpful if he is being shut in your room away from strangers. I’d also see about a crate which could be a way he could be very safely in same area as strangers.

 

[ktgrok]

Or if being put away/shut away freaks him out, you could put his leash on and tie it to a bit of furniture (or put an eyebolt in a baseboard) and have the bed there so he is told to go to place and stay, and rewarded for staying in place as you visit, but there is a measure of safety with the leash so in case he gets up he can't wander off. 

And yes training him to DO something does help with the anxiety, and with control of the situation. Right now he isn't sure what to do when people come over. Going to place and laying there is a specific thing to do, with a clear boundary, and you can reward and correct (lead him back) as need be. 

Train it first without anyone there (tons of youtube videos on how to teach place), then work on doing it with you knocking on the door or ringing the door bell, then with other people. 

[Pen]

42 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

He doesn't usually get sent inside or out as a punishment.  Just 

 

For my dogs, being sent away from their people pack  is, I think, experienced as negative (aversive) no matter what my intent is. Even if I just want privacy in the bathroom, my dogs seem to experience this as personal rejection.

[laundrycrisis]

On 9/8/2018 at 4:36 PM, DesertBlossom said:

So a couple other friends just knocked on the door. The dog jumped up in anticipation so I tried to get him to come into our bedroom so I could shut him in there and he wouldn't come. This dog is mostly obedient, but then again, I don't ask him to do much. But he was questioning my motives so he wouldn't follow me. Even with a treat. (We've had this problem trying to get him back in the car-- if he doesn't have his leash on and he's not sure why you're taking him somewhere, he won't go.)  He ran outside and barked at the newcomers from a safe distance and is now sleeping.

We don't have a crate for him. Never have.

 

I would get a crate.  Also when a dog is questioning our motives, we pop a leash on.  We don't negotiate with the dogs (we are on our second set of three).