Discouraged and wondering about next steps

[mamashark]

In January of this year we started Barton level 3 after finishing level 2. We worked VERY slowly, putting in 30-45 minutes work a day, but making very little progress. We frequently repeated individual activities or went back to the beginning of a lesson and starting again. She has gotten very frustrated with it and I'm at a point that I probably need to just start back at the beginning of the level again, 3 letter blends get all garbled in her head so that on some words, no matter how many times she says the sounds slowly, she just CANNOT blend them into a word properly. So I took a break this week to have her just read to me the books recommended on the tutor side of the Barton site for practicing after level 2. She's not only made no progress since I first printed those books in December, but that she's lost some of the fluency she had at the time.

I feel like I'm doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result, and don't know what to do next. We play games, use flash cards, try to find ways to mix things up and practice, but honestly starting over at the beginning of level three AGAIN seems like a frustrating waste of time after months of working the same material with no progress. Part of me feel like I need to go back to level 2 instead to reestablish fluency with 2-letter blends, and then I wonder if I'm too invested in this method and that maybe I need to seek another strategy to work with her. 

[mamashark]

I am wondering if adding LiPS would provide a piece of the puzzle that would be beneficial? 

[acresoft]

Victory Drill Book is great for gaining speed in reading. The teacher does short timed drills with the student.

[Lecka]

Did she pass the Barton pre-test?

Just some thoughts.  You could build in more review if she is forgetting.

You might do some other activities targeting blending if she seems to wilt when you pull out Barton.  You could come back to it later or not.  

What are your prompting procedures when she gets confused with blending?  I like to try to prompt before it gets too bad.  And go back to something easier or provide more prompts more quickly if there is a string of ones that are not going well.  More parent modeling where she copies you but doesn’t have to do “new” herself can help.  

My older son sometimes would just seem to forget his letter sounds or forget how to blend.  And then this would feed on itself and be a bad cycle.  Sometimes — sometimes just random here and there.

Anyway if frustration or anxiety or thinking “I can’t do it” is any part of it, then I think more modeling and more review are good.  

This is something that is a thought.... is it the number of phonemes she has to blend?  It gets harder with each number and I think if you see that then maybe work on just blending phonemes but not having to think of anything else.  So very supported — you give the letter sounds and everything.  That can be a way to practice.  

I don’t know, though, it’s hard to know!  

You can email the company, many people have done that from this board.  

[Lecka]

Have you seen the Abecedarian error correction guide?  I got some good ideas from that.

I also got advice here to limit talking, so more pointing, use a pencil to point (if needed) because talking can frustrate kids who are trying to blend.  

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, mamashark said:

3 letter blends get all garbled in her head so that on some words, no matter how many times she says the sounds slowly, she just CANNOT blend them into a word properly.

A few questions. I agree, how is she doing on the Barton pre-test? Are you working on working memory? By 3 letter blends, you mean say in the word "string"? So can she say string if you just say the word and have her repeat it? Does she have speech/articulation issues or receive speech therapy? Have you had her hearing checked? And how old is she?

She's going to regress if you took off 6-8 months, yes. 

When I don't know what to do, I go back to basics. Maybe there's something holding up her progress. Is it noisy where you're working or is there any background noise?

[mamashark]

To answer the questions - yes she passed the Barton Pre-test.

She has received speech/articulation therapy in the past but has graduated from that. I ensure that any word I ask her to read is first a word that she can say correctly and we have not had a speech issue interfere with reading.

Hearing has been checked, as has vision. Both fine. She's 7 and a half years old.

We did not take 6-8 months off of Barton, just those optional books. We took 3 weeks off in June. Other than that we have worked every day but the weekends from January through now, with only a day here and there off for illness and fieldtrips as necessary. That's all on the first 3 and a half lessons of level 3. Lots of repeating sections, lots of games, lots of review. She has not read those specific books again since December but they should have been stepping back enough that they should have been doable. 

I may try working with just 3 letter blends without the words to see if that helps. My husband suggested we try the online program Nessie too, as he would like to see if it helps to motivate her. She's able to say words when she knows them (repeating me say them) but when sounding them out, if she doesn't get an idea quickly of what it is, she has difficulty keeping all 3 letters in the correct place when going from say it slow to say it fast like a word.

I too have received the advice to talk less with my prompting, which for the most part works except that she does have an attention problem that has worsened over the past year and only during math and reading. 

 

[Lecka]

Okay, is she making progress but slower than you would like?

Does she do that thing where she maybe says the vowel sound the most slightest bit off, and then doesn’t have any idea what the word is, and says it off like “I couldn’t possibly identify this word,” even though she is so close?

Things like that?

Honesty I think blending is so hard and can take review and games and games and review.  

If she is totally stalled that is different.  If it’s frustrating slow one-step-forward, two-steps-back ———— I think that is par for the course.  

If her attention is lagging — you can try things like shortening the time of sessions, you can try using a system to let her see the time is doable. 

You can use a timer.  

You can have a sticker chart and fill it up.  If she is paying more attention — give her extra stickers and reward her with ending faster.  Don’t let it drag out.  This kind of thing can work for attitude/attention, if it’s that she thinks it will go on forever.  

I do a lot with count-downs also, hold up 5 finger and put down a finger for responses, say “wow, you only have two more to go.”  That kind of thing.  It seems corny but my younger son does great with it.  

I also sometimes write things on index cards and then for a very good response let my kids rip up the paper.  Like I can’t write something on an index again, lol.  I don’t really like the attitude but it has been motivating and gotten them to pay more attention so they can get to rip the card.  It can also work with “3 cards left and then we are done for now” if there’s a break coming up.  It’s very visual that way.  

Edit:  there are a lot of kids who have ADHD and dyslexia and anecdotally I think a lot of ADHD stuff seems to help kids make more progress.  But I do not have first hand experience with that.  It is worth considering though. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, mamashark said:

I may try working with just 3 letter blends without the words to see if that helps. My husband suggested we try the online program Nessie too, as he would like to see if it helps to motivate her. She's able to say words when she knows them (repeating me say them) but when sounding them out, if she doesn't get an idea quickly of what it is, she has difficulty keeping all 3 letters in the correct place when going from say it slow to say it fast like a word.

Would you work on the three letter blends because they're hard to say or because it's hard for her to hold so many pieces in her head? You may need to take her working memory up higher to allow her to hold 5 letters *and* blend them. Working on working memory is almost always a good thing. 

I tried Nessie, and the accent was a dealbreaker for my ds. Might not be for someone else. It would be a nice supplement, but still she needs to be able to do these tasks. Try the working memory. Also, how is she doing with non-sense words? It sounds like she's trying to get to the whole of the word quickly to avoid having to hold the parts in her head and blend. The way around that, besides of course bumping working memory, is more work with non-sense words. Barton includes them. You could see if there's any pattern, like she's fine with 4 letters of nonsense but struggles with 5, or she's fine with non-sense with 2 letter blends but stumbles with 3 letter blends, etc.

To build working memory, you can play games like memory, call out commands that she repeats and then does, do digit spans, etc. At that stage I was doing working memory work with my ds every single day. It definitely makes holding all the data to decode and pull into a whole easier.

[domestic_engineer]

I don't have experience with Barton, but I just converted a free trial to Nessy into a year-long paid subscription.  During the free trial, it *did* seem to motivate, encourage, and build confidence in my DC.  It also seemed to motivate, encourage and build confidence in me, too.  ?.  I am able to be the cheerleader rather than the teacher/corrector.  You can get a discount through homeschoolbuyersco-op (Referral link here). Nessy has worksheets, too, that you can download to provide extra, off-line practice.  (Nessy has a US version that doesn't have the British accent.)

Also, a few days before starting on Nessy, we started working on Working Memory.  The first time I tried an "echo" game, it was obvious we needed to strengthen DC's working memory ... and to me that was a big clue that if DC can't keep 3-4 numbers in his head then that probably translates to phonemes too.  So now, I'm "counting" any time spent on working memory as "learning-to-read time" as I assume the low working memory is a big limiting factor to reading.  So, while I'm happy with the Nessy results today, the progress may be more correctly attributed to strengthening Working Memory.  shrug.

Hugs to you as you ponder a way forward!

[Kanin]

Is it just 3 letter blends, or other things too? How does she do with short vowels? If it's 3 letter blends only, I'd be inclined to skip them for now, and move on. 

I seem to be recommending Raz-Kids a lot lately, but it's a great place to find lots of books. It's motivating to kids because they get stars for reading and taking quizzes, and you can use the stars to decorate the interior of a spaceship, and to customize a robot. It's pretty adorable. They'd have things that aren't in the correct progression for Barton, though, if you're trying to limit reading to things she's definitely learned. 

I looked at the Barton sequence. Honestly, I would do some things in a different order. Here is Wilson, for example: https://www.carlisleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_95479/File/Academics/Reading/Wilson Reading Program/wilson_scope.pdf and here is the Recipe for Reading (page 4): https://eps.schoolspecialty.com/EPS/media/Site-Resources/Downloads/program-overviews/S-recipe_for_reading.pdf?ext=.pdf

There is also High Noon, which is again different. I say life's too short to be aggravated by a reading program - if you love Barton, stick with it, but if you're kinda meh in general, then... maybe try a different one. You could even take a break from Barton by doing the same skills in another program, and see if that's better - so you're not taking a break from reading instruction, just trying something different. Even just reading some High Noon books that cover what she's already learned in Barton.

[mamashark]

14 hours ago, Lecka said:

Okay, is she making progress but slower than you would like?   the progress she's made in that time was to have a few more sight words memorized, and gone from 0% to maybe 25% on words with 3-consonent blends.

Does she do that thing where she maybe says the vowel sound the most slightest bit off, and then doesn’t have any idea what the word is, and says it off like “I couldn’t possibly identify this word,” even though she is so close?  No, she is actually really good with her vowels. She will tap and say the three consonants, then say them slowly, then say them fast but in the wrong order. And she has lost some of her automaticity so that she's back to sounding out every single word that has a blend in it.

Things like that?

Honesty I think blending is so hard and can take review and games and games and review.  It's not the act of blending a word that's hard (she has to take the steps to do it - say the sounds, say them slowly, then say them fast), but it's the consonant blends in a word that trip her up if it's a 3-letter consonant blend. She also has to blend nearly every word again, instead of having any automaticity in saying the words she's read a million times.

If she is totally stalled that is different.  If it’s frustrating slow one-step-forward, two-steps-back ———— I think that is par for the course.  I would say totally stalled. 

If her attention is lagging — you can try things like shortening the time of sessions, you can try using a system to let her see the time is doable. 

You can use a timer.  

You can have a sticker chart and fill it up.  If she is paying more attention — give her extra stickers and reward her with ending faster.  Don’t let it drag out.  This kind of thing can work for attitude/attention, if it’s that she thinks it will go on forever.  

I do a lot with count-downs also, hold up 5 finger and put down a finger for responses, say “wow, you only have two more to go.”  That kind of thing.  It seems corny but my younger son does great with it.  

I also sometimes write things on index cards and then for a very good response let my kids rip up the paper.  Like I can’t write something on an index again, lol.  I don’t really like the attitude but it has been motivating and gotten them to pay more attention so they can get to rip the card.  It can also work with “3 cards left and then we are done for now” if there’s a break coming up.  It’s very visual that way.  I've tried all these motivational ideas. We've used every positive reward method we could think of, and some negative ones. The most effective was when I used a time timer and set it for 15 minutes. Every minute she stalled or had a bad attitude I added a minute. 

Edit:  there are a lot of kids who have ADHD and dyslexia and anecdotally I think a lot of ADHD stuff seems to help kids make more progress.  But I do not have first hand experience with that.  It is worth considering though.  I told my husband she's displaying classic ADD signs (no hyperactivity) but that it's ONLY when doing math and reading. I feel like it's less an ADD issue and more that she's figured out that math and reading are just HARD and she doesn't like doing anything hard, so she balks, gets distracted, stares into space, whatever allows her a few moments of peace from the difficulty. 

 

[mamashark]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Would you work on the three letter blends because they're hard to say or because it's hard for her to hold so many pieces in her head? You may need to take her working memory up higher to allow her to hold 5 letters *and* blend them. Working on working memory is almost always a good thing. 

I tried Nessie, and the accent was a dealbreaker for my ds. Might not be for someone else. It would be a nice supplement, but still she needs to be able to do these tasks. Try the working memory. Also, how is she doing with non-sense words? It sounds like she's trying to get to the whole of the word quickly to avoid having to hold the parts in her head and blend. The way around that, besides of course bumping working memory, is more work with non-sense words. Barton includes them. You could see if there's any pattern, like she's fine with 4 letters of nonsense but struggles with 5, or she's fine with non-sense with 2 letter blends but stumbles with 3 letter blends, etc.

To build working memory, you can play games like memory, call out commands that she repeats and then does, do digit spans, etc. At that stage I was doing working memory work with my ds every single day. It definitely makes holding all the data to decode and pull into a whole easier.

 

I need to do some of that with her for working memory, see if that could be the problem. If it is, that's something we could stop and focus more on for sure.

Nessie accent doesn't seem to be a problem for us, at least not in the first day. We are going to try the free 7 day deal and I'm going to withhold judgement until then.

She does nonsense words much the same as real words - her vocabulary is pretty low, I've figured out, which makes many of the real words (especially in Barton when they use some odd words to keep the sentences readable) nonsense to her until we discuss the sentence anyway. I'll look for a pattern in how many letters she can hold in her head. I saw other patterns but didn't pay attention to that. (vowel is always correct, b/d she refuses to use the tool to figure it out or uses the incorrect hand so is about 50/50 on it, often will miss the beginning letter of a consonant blend at the end of a word - like will skip it entirely, will garble 3-letter consonant blends when trying to put the slow sounds into a fast word).

 

[mamashark]

12 hours ago, Mainer said:

Is it just 3 letter blends, or other things too? How does she do with short vowels? If it's 3 letter blends only, I'd be inclined to skip them for now, and move on. It's mostly 3-letter blends. I do see troublesome signs of other issues, like the skipping of the first consonant in a blend at the end of the word - like b-a-l-k she would initially read as b-a-k, and some times she would start sounding that word out like this: "k-b-a-k, bak," prompt to check again, "b-a-k, b-a-l-k, balk". So starting with that ending sound concerns me too. Skipping this step won't fix the problem but it might help boost her confidence since we've made no progress lately, I'm kind of hoping Nessie does that because I'm sure it will not follow the same sequence.

I seem to be recommending Raz-Kids a lot lately, but it's a great place to find lots of books. It's motivating to kids because they get stars for reading and taking quizzes, and you can use the stars to decorate the interior of a spaceship, and to customize a robot. It's pretty adorable. They'd have things that aren't in the correct progression for Barton, though, if you're trying to limit reading to things she's definitely learned. That sounds awesome, I'll have to go check it out.

I looked at the Barton sequence. Honestly, I would do some things in a different order. Here is Wilson, for example: https://www.carlisleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_95479/File/Academics/Reading/Wilson Reading Program/wilson_scope.pdf and here is the Recipe for Reading (page 4): https://eps.schoolspecialty.com/EPS/media/Site-Resources/Downloads/program-overviews/S-recipe_for_reading.pdf?ext=.pdf Thanks for these, I think maybe looking at a different sequence might be a good idea for a respite!

There is also High Noon, which is again different. I say life's too short to be aggravated by a reading program - if you love Barton, stick with it, but if you're kinda meh in general, then... maybe try a different one. You could even take a break from Barton by doing the same skills in another program, and see if that's better - so you're not taking a break from reading instruction, just trying something different. Even just reading some High Noon books that cover what she's already learned in Barton. I took a break after Barton 1 and she made zero progress (well, I switched to Phonics Pathways, which is what I had on hand and it was a big flop) we went back to Barton for level 2 and she took such huge strides I was so motivated to continue and am just so bogged down now with no progress. I'll take a look at what else there is available and see if we can't both find new life for reading in the process, thanks for your recommendations!

 

[geodob]

What is her 'sense of rhythm' like, as this is fundamental to concieving of blending sounds?

[Lecka]

I think give her more practice with things with fewer phonemes in a word.  A lot of stuff for younger kids is this way.  Keep doing a little bit of modeling/practicing blending words with more phonemes.  

There are reading programs that go forward with different spelling patterns while limiting the number of phonemes in a word to 4, with 5 here and there.  

I also think there are reading programs with easier vocabulary for young kids, and I think there are positives to that, I think it can be a lot less frustrating and more engaging.

I don’t think that means quitting Barton forever, but you can see, practice the same skills a while, see if she does better with more practice with fewer phonemes and better understanding with easier vocabulary.  

I think you can still do drip, drip, drip with the things she is having trouble with in Barton but hopefully see more progress overall and help your daughter’s interest and motivation.  

Just my opinion!  

Whenever I have looked at Raz Kids I think it looks great.  It may have less of — having controlled vocabulary as far as what patterns have been taught.  You can read those words for her, especially if you see her start guessing a lot (like to the point she doesn’t even try to blend).  They also might have a lot that is controlled vocabulary that way.  Look up to maybe level D, level A might be more:  every page says “it is a” and then there is a word of an object in a picture.  That is not controlled vocabulary at all.  But in a little higher level they have more of a controlled vocabulary.  I’m not positive at all but it’s worth checking — I think it may be set up that way.  And I think it’s okay too if she would benefit from practicing sight words with the level A stuff.  But she will need support reading them or she may start guessing, she won’t know if a word is one she should be sounding out or one she is expected to figure out from context or have learned from a sight word list— and that can lead to guessing.  But if you sit with her you can help her that way, just read a word here and there.  

Just my thoughts!

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, mamashark said:

She has received speech/articulation therapy in the past but has graduated from that.

It's possible if you write out all the blends she's having trouble with that they're letters that are hard for her to get out, effortful. Actually list out the ones she's having trouble with, but they probably all have L and R, and those are your later sounds. If the issue is being slow or the low working memory, I would stay at slow land. But you've been doing that for months, right? Slow is not a problem if everything else is there. Are the L and R things the SLP worked on? When did she graduate? It's possible they graduated her before those letters were in because they were not developmentally appropriate to require at that point. It may be she'd benefit from more speech therapy.

I can tell you I see kids "graduating" from speech therapy who have more needs. It seems like there's a social component, like they want the kid to feel successful or the parent to feel something, I don't know. It doesn't necessarily correlate to reality unfortunately. It might correlate to the parents' money ran out or the insurance funding ran out. 

Like I said, go back to basics. That computer software is nice but it's not going to solve whatever is going on. In fact, it could make it worse by encouraging her to guess or to memorize visually, rather than compelling her to get every sound the way a human tutor will. It's not going to be a substitute for solving the problem. 

So when did she end speech therapy? How old was she? Her vocabulary is low? It's true Barton is aimed at an older dc. If you were to slide, my two cents would be to slide to another OG program that has a younger target age. Here's another OG manual, totally FREE, that might be more age-appropriate. You can look it over and see where you are in the progression. You can use your Barton tiles with it to kick it up. http://www.marooneyfoundation.org/professional-learning.aspx

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I think give her more practice with things with fewer phonemes in a word.  A lot of stuff for younger kids is this way.

Yes, this. And I think if you look through something like the MA Rooney OG materials, which have totally completed lesson plans for K5, 1st, 2nd, as well as an overall OG manual, you'll see that they use simpler, more engaging words, limit the number of syllables, and probably even focus on sounds the kids are developmentally ready to make. It's not expected for kids to have 3 letter blends in K5, for instance, so they're not going to teach them. Barton was written for adult remediation and I think she targets it at like 4th and up or something, right? My ds has a gifted IQ, super high vocabulary, and he got maxed out. You can say it's the autism, but I'm just saying it's ok to look for something aimed at younger kids. 

What you got with Barton was really strong learning for YOU in how to deliver multi-sensory, how to use tiles, how to be a really careful teacher. But at this point you know enough you could pick up another program aimed at younger kids and bring it to life. OR if it's really really only 3 letter consonant blends in Barton, you scrap those and say big deal and move on. I'd have to look at the word lists again. That may make it hard to go forward. I just don't remember. We skipped th/TH in Barton and literally skipped all the words with it for all the levels we did. You're allowed to do stuff like that, lol. 

Sometimes when I don't know what to do I just start over. When I was teaching my dd to read, my dd who is not diagnosed dyslexic btw, I started over *3 times* in SWR. Seriously. So when you don't know what to do and you're trying to figure out where there might be other glitches, sometimes starting afresh, reviewing, going back to the beginning is actually a really strong strategy. It gives you time to continue to think and gather data and it gives her review. But since Barton is pretty complex with language and vocab, I might do that fresh take and review with a different curriculum, something aimed at younger kids like the MA Rooney stuff, just to keep it fresh and see what you learn (about her, her needs, etc.) by doing it that way.

[PeterPan]

If you want more readers, the High Noon stuff would make a lot of sense. She'd go in here https://www.highnoonbooks.com/detailHNB.tpl?action=search&cart=153425365313500479&eqskudatarq=8125-8&eqTitledatarq=Sound Out Chapter Books - Set A-1&eqvendordatarq=ATP&bobby=[bobby]&bob=[bob]&TBL=[tbl] , with A1 of the Sound Out Chapter books. She'd do A1 and A2, skipping A3 (which seems to have more complex language more comparable to Barton's stories). Then she'd go to B1, B2, skip B3, and so on. She might really have a lot of success with the A series books, and it surprises me Barton doesn't mention them as they are so well done and would be complementary. Barton's books are targeted mostly at older kids and start at a more complex level. The readings in the manuals are more complex also. These HN lower reader books fill in a gap there and would be brilliant. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

21 hours ago, mamashark said:

I am wondering if adding LiPS would provide a piece of the puzzle that would be beneficial? 

I'm never opposed to using LIPS. I carried the methodology of LIPS, using the faces, all the way through Barton 1 and 2 and into 3 if needed. I made sure I built 3 letter blends, multiple syllables, everything complex I wanted him to be able to blend, with the LIPS, because he has significant apraxia and needed that level of support to figure out the motor planning and get it out. It was a strong strategy for him. 

Here's a picture of our board when it was in progress. I'm not sure all the sounds were there yet, but it will give you the jist. I suggest you just draw on slips of paper the three faces you need to explain those sounds and work on them. Hack it, kwim? Obviously if you have it lying around, that's fine too. You are already most of the way there, so you're just wanting a fresh way to explain "street" or "spray" or "splat" or something, right? Think through what letters you need, inventory them, then see what faces you need. That's what I was saying to do for the articulation anyway. You probably only need 2 or three of the faces, and then you'll realize the pattern if there are articulation challenges as well. 

So yes, inventory all the sounds she's struggling to blend, write them out, see where they fall under the faces, see if there's a pattern to articulation challenges. And yes it would be fine then to draw little faces and slow it down and work on the articulation of it. But if you're having to do that, like I said, maybe she needs more SLP work. Maybe a fresh SLP. There are SLPs who specialize in literacy and they cost the same as everyone else. So if you found an SLP who specializes in literacy, they might be immensely helpful to you, nailing this connection between articulation and blending and then helping you go forward with vocab, comprehension, etc. That's something I would have to drive an hour to find, but they ARE out there. That's not true, there's an SLP locally who does it, but I think they went straight OG and don't keep their SLP up to date and don't practice as SLPs, not sure. If you've got insurance coverage for SLPs, that would be a person to look for.

Anyway, here's that pic. See what brilliant things you can do with it. 

 

[Lecka]

Something too, I’m not sure exactly where your daughter is, but for my older son he got to a point where he could read other words in a sentence very well, and then if he misread “steet” instead of “street,” he would go “oh that didn’t make sense,” and then go back and look at it again.  

So just to be positive, it is easier to self-correct like that when there is context, even though learning to read words without context and being able to decode without context is important, I would get very down with these kind of mistakes, but then I would feel better to see him self-correct when he did have context.  

And — leaving out one letter in a blend is so much better than blindly guessing based on the first letter, saying totally random things, etc.  It is really doing *so many things* right.  It is just very frustrating but really it is showing a lot of good things happening.  

[PeterPan]

If she's not decoding it and saying it, is she spelling it? 

[mamashark]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So when did she end speech therapy? How old was she? Her vocabulary is low? It's true Barton is aimed at an older dc. If you were to slide, my two cents would be to slide to another OG program that has a younger target age. Here's another OG manual, totally FREE, that might be more age-appropriate. You can look it over and see where you are in the progression. You can use your Barton tiles with it to kick it up. http://www.marooneyfoundation.org/professional-learning.aspx

She has been finished with speech therapy from the time she was 5...that said, the blends she can't put together are sounds she can make in isolation. honestly, our 10 year old makes more articulation errors than she does. I'm going to take a look at this link, and the books you link to for High Noon, and probably just need to slide to something more age appropriate. My son who is k5 this year is just starting phonics and doing so well with phonics pathways that I think it woke me up to the slow, painful lack of progress my daughter is making.

And no - she has just as much difficulty spelling it the words, and now that I'm thinking about it, that is most likely a working memory thing.

[mamashark]

What recommendations do you have for working memory?

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, mamashark said:

the blends she can't put together are sounds she can make in isolation.

She can say the sounds in isolation. Can she say them as blends in a word to repeat what you say? Like if you say "sprag" or some nonsense word, can she repeat it?

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, mamashark said:

What recommendations do you have for working memory?

The board search is working a little better, so try that as we've had some threads. I used a combo of approaches, trying to build it through visual, auditory, etc.

-visual games like memory (card matching)

-auditory where you give a sequence of commands that she REPEATS and then does. (must repeat the commands)

-board games that bring in working memory like Ticket to Ride, where they have to hold a strategy or plan in their head

-digit spans (forward, n-backs, with distractions like metronome or radio, etc.)

Get creative, but yeah variety is what we did, targeting 4 sessions a day.

[domestic_engineer]

Back when the Build Your Bundle sale was going on, I got this in a bundle.  The info wasn't anything revolutionary, but it was all-in-one-place ... which was enough to get me started.  I think many of the items you could find by googling and compiling, though.  The easiest to implement right away was an Echo game (which I imagine you can get free from this page).  I say a number; child has to repeat the number.  I say 2 numbers; child has to repeat the 2 numbers.  You can increase the difficulty by increasing the numbers you say or having them repeat and the reverse the numbers.  This activity was also the main focus of this book that PeterPan recommended once but is currently crazy-expensive.

Also -the  classic Simon electronic game is a sneaky way to improve working memory and can be independent.

[PeterPan]

This other Cusimano book is also really good. https://www.amazon.com/Auditory-Memory-Context-Instructional-Workbook/dp/0972776281/ref=pd_sbs_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0972776281&pd_rd_r=c720aa73-a275-11e8-9eeb-6fcbc1953dbe&pd_rd_w=zUGIz&pd_rd_wg=pzaz8&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=ebf3f80b-3878-4fb9-8381-bbec92f92693&pf_rd_r=AZMW9XCX9K1AX849GZX2&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=AZMW9XCX9K1AX849GZX2 

For digit spans, you can do them more ways. (google n-backs where you say the last or first digit of the PREVIOUS thing read, etc.) This product https://store.littlegiantsteps.com/products/digit-span-decks includes more suggestions on ways to use digit spans. They suggest doing them visually as well, which is wise.

I used the Attention Good Listeners pages to work on working memory using instructions someone else had given me back channel. Think Simon but saying a sequence of the pictures on the page. They could touch them, say them, both. And that was cool because then you were getting in discrimination with minimal differences pairs, because they had to listen really carefully AND say/touch them in order! 

[ElizabethB]

With my students who had underlying speech problems when younger, they pop back up when trying to put the sounds back together, and they need LiPS level work to be able to fluently blend words that they can say fine after therapy.  

For her age, I would first try the Word Builder app, he is Australian but it has U.S. pronunciation as well.  It is not quite as detailed as LiPS, but does some of the same things and is more fun.

http://www.readingdoctor.com.au/word-builder/

In the meantime, I would work through my syllables program to build up confidence and work on the blends in syllables, they are much easier when in isolation, review first the 2 letter ones like bra bre bri bro bru bry, then build up to spra spre spri spro spru spry.  Also, syllables are easier to blend together for anyone with an underlying (even if fixed in oral speech) speech problem.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

You could also use the app Sounds of Speech (or try on your computer for free, but app is cheap) to look at the sounds of each letter, then how they blend, work on them super slow then a few quicker.  Over learn each blend before moving on to the next, then mix.  

http://soundsofspeech.uiowa.edu/index.html#english

Eventually, you may need to do the full LiPS program, but you could try these ideas first.  The used LiPS manual is now $42, and you can copy the mouth pictures from the book and then cut them out and use them instead of buying the magnets, someone here came up with that cost saving idea, I forget who.  It is very scripted, at her age I would just work through the book from front to back, my older students I jump ahead in some things and do a mix of activities.

https://www.amazon.com/Lindamood-Phoneme-Sequencing-Program-Spelling/dp/0890797536/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1534563497&sr=8-1&keywords=lindamood

Edited August 18, 2018 by ElizabethB

[Pen]

We used mainly High Noon. It did not have blends, let alone 3 consonant blends until a later point than Barton. Maybe a program that gets To blends later would decrease frustration. 

My son was older than your dd, and we had to do very short sessions until he had gained a lot more skill and stamina. I think 15 minutes at a time of intense reading remediation may be asking for too much. I would tend to cut it down to maybe 3 separated 5 minute sessions. And I would not make more time reading be a punishment. I think having reading be experienced as something used to punish behavior you don’t like is likely to make reading even more unpleasant and disliked and thus more difficult in the long run  

For my Ds using High Noon, the ability to start reading the Sound Out Chapter books fairly early in the program started to be its own reward.  His first was The Red Cap which should be fine for age 7. Those books were then used to gain automaticity and fluency.

 Plus other non reading related treats, outings, foods, dvd movies  ...  were incentives for good work  But good work and focus was kept quite short till a lot of fluency and automaticity and reading stamina  had developed  

 

Even if it seems to work short term, I would be concerned about requiring more reading time as a punishment creating a negative spiral in the long term. 

On 8/17/2018 at 3:29 AM, mamashark said:

ve tried all these motivational ideas. We've used every positive reward method we could think of, and some negative ones. The most effective was when I used a time timer and set it for 15 minutes. Every minute she stalled or had a bad attitude I added a minute. 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Pen
Clarity

[Pen]

I added more to above at same time you were reading it. 

[mamashark]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

I added more to above at same time you were reading it. 

Thanks ?

[MistyMountain]

My dd is having struggles with Barton level 3 too. She has a few lessons where she just is not picking up the concept and she is not gaining fluency. I was getting frustrated with the scope and sequence of Barton with the order they introduce things and how slowly they do each skill and how little they review previous skills. She did not have trouble with silent E or vowel phonograms that they introduce much later. I will be trying LiPs, Lexia and I SEE SAM books. I am hoping for something else to try too. She made more progress with Lexia then Barton but I feel she needs to do more then just Lexia.

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, MistyMountain said:

I am hoping for something else to try too.

Some of the things that are popular on some literary lists where I've been reading?

Spelfabet

https://www.learningbydesign.com/ Spell-Links **This one really interests me, but it's $$, sigh.

the free OG stuff from the MA Rooney Foundation

Free Literacy Resources for Parents and Professionals Blog post with lots of stuff

https://www.highnoonbooks.com/detailHNB.tpl?action=search&cart=153425365313500479&eqskudatarq=8125-8&eqTitledatarq=Sound Out Chapter Books - Set A-1&eqvendordatarq=ATP&bobby=[bobby]&bob=[bob]&TBL=[tbl] These are the High Noon sound out chapter books that Pen keeps talking about. Each level comes with optional really snazzy workbooks. They start at an earlier level than the supplemental reading from Barton and seem nicely written. The 1 and 2 level books in each series seem like simpler language and the level 3 seems like more mature language but same decoding level. Extensive samples on each level and you can get a free sampler through ibooks.

 

[mamashark]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

https://www.learningbydesign.com/ Spell-Links **This one really interests me, but it's $$, sigh.

 

 

What have you seen/read about this? I tend to be wary of the marketing on a product's own site, but the idea of teaching reading from an entirely new angle intrigues me... (even if the price makes it look prohibitively expensive...)

[PeterPan]

It's quite popular in literacy SLP circles. It's over $300...

[mamashark]

14 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

It's quite popular in literacy SLP circles. It's over $300...

I realize the cost, my husbands comment was that it might be a way to break the cycle of continuing to try the same basic teaching methods while expecting a different result. It does seem to be quite  different take on the concept of teaching reading. It is a shame it is not offered in parts instead of As an expensive whole. I would love to hear what anyone else experienced with it for a struggling reader.

[PeterPan]

I think the therapists that are using it like it for the spelling component. It isn't straight OG as an approach for spelling but organizes around sound. I don't think being novel/different on reading instruction is necessarily wise, since OG is an evidence-based approach going back 70 some years. Look for evidence-based approaches, not novelty.

[ElizabethB]

On August 22, 2018 at 11:00 AM, mamashark said:

I realize the cost, my husbands comment was that it might be a way to break the cycle of continuing to try the same basic teaching methods while expecting a different result. It does seem to be quite  different take on the concept of teaching reading. It is a shame it is not offered in parts instead of As an expensive whole. I would love to hear what anyone else experienced with it for a struggling reader.

I haven't used it, or know anyone who has, but it looks interesting.  It looks like since you know you need work, all you would need would be the manual and linked worksheets for $99, still expensive, but not as much as the full program.

https://shop.learningbydesign.com/SPELL-Links-Strategies-By-The-Numbers-LNX-BTN.htm

It looks like basically a modern version of Spalding but easier to implement, but I've only seen the little they show on the website.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

I haven't used it, or know anyone who has, but it looks interesting.  It looks like since you know you need work, all you would need would be the manual and linked worksheets for $99, still expensive, but not as much as the full program.

https://shop.learningbydesign.com/SPELL-Links-Strategies-By-The-Numbers-LNX-BTN.htm

It looks like basically a modern version of Spalding but easier to implement, but I've only seen the little they show on the website.

I've seen people talking about Strategies by the Numbers, and the SmartSpeechTherapy blog gave it away or something. Thing is, that book is the strategies, not the word lists. I'm not sure what you're saying are linked worksheets. 

[ElizabethB]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I've seen people talking about Strategies by the Numbers, and the SmartSpeechTherapy blog gave it away or something. Thing is, that book is the strategies, not the word lists. I'm not sure what you're saying are linked worksheets. 

It says you also get a cloud library of reproducible materials, which to me means worksheets.  She can contact them and find out if she wants to pursue ordering, but that's what it looks like to me.