Stuff on teaching reading

[Guest]

 

OK, here it is. It was part of a playlist and I kept getting the top video on the list. This is a grade 1 group.

[Guest]

In spite of some temporary focus on each child, see how she has to stick with the plan? This is why I prefer strategy books! I can bring in the strategies that I want/ need my son to focus on, without having to follow someone's plan.

PeterPan, I would encourage you to still get Serravallo's books from the library (when they become available to you) as an additional resource for customizing, based on what your son needs focus on.

I spent much more time than I intended on here and I really have to get back to my forum break as my signature says ?

I wish you all the best and I hope you find what best works for you and your boy!

M

[Lecka]

I think the Jan Richardson books look good for comprehension.  

[Guest]

Richardson was definitely better organized than the teacher in the second video! Her (from second video) focus on the strategies looks a bit more random and she seems too focused on the timer. So, a lot depends on the teacher and how she (or he) is applying the strategies.

I recognized all the strategies used, by the way. Having a few additional resources to help target/ customize instruction just gives the home-teacher added tools. There's a reason why we homeschool! We can do one-on-one and cater to our specific child's needs.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Guest

[Kanin]

I'm just amazed at how long those kids sit still! ADHD compounds the difficulty of reading instruction so much. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

I'm just amazed at how long those kids sit still! ADHD compounds the difficulty of reading instruction so much. 

 Actually, one of the little boys was moving around quite a bit (in the second video). My unmedicated 9-year-old ASD/ ADHD would be a challenge to teach and keep focused. Im faced with quite a bit just to keep him on task, on some days! Having 2 or 3 in a classroom, I'm sure must be a challenge for the teacher!

[Terabith]

On the decoding instruction...it’s bizarre how little they don’t understand phonics.  I took a teaching reading in early childhood course (early childhood is through third grade), and they talked about all those elements and the professor, who really was great, kept saying how inadequate phonics was and how stupid it was for adults to tell kids to sound out words rather than using all these strategies.  And she told a story about a first or second grade girl reading a story about a kite when she came to the word “high.”  The professor said that she watched the teacher ask the girl to sound it out and how ludicrous that was.  And finally I raised my hand and said, “Well, look, I’m fully aware that it’s unfair to ask a child to sound out a word when they haven’t been given the tools to do so.  But rather than having a kid look at a picture and guess, why on earth would you not just tell a kid, “Igh when they are together make the long I sound?  High is really a completely phonetically regular word.”   And she looked at me and with a completely straight face said, “Wait...do they?  I guess it does.”  I had taken a Spalding training seminar before any classes with this professor, and I am so glad.  The professor really was great.  She had all kinds of great information on general language development and concepts of print and promoting phonemic awareness and building listening comprehension.  Really, really good stuff.  But she knew absolutely no phonics.  It was a graduate course, and when she would try to convince us of the importance of memorizing sight words, I would show the class how almost all of them actually followed rules.  But she didn’t know that English even HAD rules.  I finally brought in my Spalding notebook and she was floored that English was far more regular than she had thought.  But she was teaching the teachers.  I have never met an elementary teacher in the public system who knows a dang thing about phonics.  Hence why they’re so wedded to sight words and guessing games.  And my kid has NO visual memory.  None.  If she’d been reliant on that stuff, she would never have learned to read.  And that would have been seriously tragic.  

Edited August 18, 2018 by Terabith

[ElizabethB]

Just now, Terabith said:

On the decoding instruction...it’s bizarre how little they don’t understand phonics.  I took a teaching reading in early childhood course (early childhood is through third grade), and they talked about all those elements and the professor, who really was great, kept saying how inadequate phonics was and how stupid it was for adults to tell kids to sound out words rather than using all these strategies.  And she told a story about a first or second grade girl reading a story about a kite when she came to the word “high.”  The professor said that she watched the teacher ask the girl to sound it out and how ludicrous that was.  And finally I raised my hand and said, “Well, look, I’m fully aware that it’s unfair to ask a child to sound out a word when they haven’t been given the tools to do so.  But rather than having a kid look at a picture and guess, why on earth would you not just tell a kid, “Igh when they are together make the long I sound?  High is really a completely phonetically regular word.”   And she looked at me and with a completely straight face said, “Wait...do they?  I guess it does.”  I had taken a Spalding training seminar and other courses from this prof...who really was great.  She had all kinds of great information on general language development and concepts of print and promoting phonemic awareness and building listening comprehension.  Really, really good stuff.  But she knew absolutely no phonics.  It was a graduate course, and when she would try to convince us of the importance of memorizing sight words, I would show the class how almost all of them actually followed rules.  But she didn’t know that English even HAD rules.  I finally brought in my Spalding notebook and she was floored that English was far more regular than she had thought.  But she was teaching the teachers.  I have never met an elementary teacher in the public system who knows a dang thing about phonics.  Hence why they’re so wedded to sight words and guessing games.  And my kid has NO visual memory.  None.  If she’d been reliant on that stuff, she would never have learned to read.  And that would have been seriously tragic.  

Sadly, I've remediated hundreds of students who got exactly that kind of instruction and they all had tragic stories to one degree or another, the older the are, the more stupid they feel and the lower their self-confidence.  (Also, the older they are, the more time and nonsense words it takes to stop the guessing habits.)

It's really not that hard, especially with an idiot proof good phonics program, there are dozens of them out there.  

It is hard for a few students, but there are good programs out there for them, too, it's just a lot more work and repetition.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Terabith said:

On the decoding instruction...it’s bizarre how little they don’t understand phonics.  I took a teaching reading in early childhood course (early childhood is through third grade), and they talked about all those elements and the professor, who really was great, kept saying how inadequate phonics was and how stupid it was for adults to tell kids to sound out words rather than using all these strategies.  And she told a story about a first or second grade girl reading a story about a kite when she came to the word “high.”  The professor said that she watched the teacher ask the girl to sound it out and how ludicrous that was.  And finally I raised my hand and said, “Well, look, I’m fully aware that it’s unfair to ask a child to sound out a word when they haven’t been given the tools to do so.  But rather than having a kid look at a picture and guess, why on earth would you not just tell a kid, “Igh when they are together make the long I sound?  High is really a completely phonetically regular word.”   And she looked at me and with a completely straight face said, “Wait...do they?  I guess it does.”  I had taken a Spalding training seminar before any classes with this professor, and I am so glad.  The professor really was great.  She had all kinds of great information on general language development and concepts of print and promoting phonemic awareness and building listening comprehension.  Really, really good stuff.  But she knew absolutely no phonics.  It was a graduate course, and when she would try to convince us of the importance of memorizing sight words, I would show the class how almost all of them actually followed rules.  But she didn’t know that English even HAD rules.  I finally brought in my Spalding notebook and she was floored that English was far more regular than she had thought.  But she was teaching the teachers.  I have never met an elementary teacher in the public system who knows a dang thing about phonics.  Hence why they’re so wedded to sight words and guessing games.  And my kid has NO visual memory.  None.  If she’d been reliant on that stuff, she would never have learned to read.  And that would have been seriously tragic.  

 

Where's that nice head banging emoticon we use to have when I need It! I am mind blown!

I have no clue what this form of reading instruction looks like. I have never witnessed it myself. Both my two were homeschooled from the start and I used and have used a variety of phonics programs, different for each boy. When I have the time I think I'll look for some videos of classes teaching K or early 1st, just out of curiosity. I did use some word family programs with my oldest, but again we used such a variety and blend of resources that by the time I found the WRTR and showed him the phonograms, he could tell me all the sounds on his own.

ETA: Both were decoding already before I started schooling each at the age of 4.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Guest

[Terabith]

I think guided reading has some good stuff, especially when it is addressing pre reading skills.  Concepts of print are important, and kids who haven’t been read to a lot need them taught explicitly.  Language skills and listening comprehension are super important, and I think they are a really important part of literacy.  Phonemic awareness undergirds phonics instruction.  Writing and reading skills are mutually reinforcing.  There’s good stuff there.  But guessing is stupid and makes kids lose confidence.  My kids benefited from those guided reading strategies when they were little, and for those types of discussions about comprehension as they got older.  But I’m so, so glad I started professional reading training after I had learned Spalding.  (And I didn’t even really use it with my kids, because neither of my kids were ready to write when they were ready to read.  But I taught them the phonograms and spelling rules and did word analysis with them.)   I just don’t understand why there’s no requirement for a linguistics course or history of English, let alone a “Keys to the English Language” class required for certification.  It would make a lot more sense than some of what is required.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

But guessing is stupid and makes kids lose confidence.  My kids benefited from those guided reading strategies when they were little, and for those types of discussions about comprehension as they got older.  

Thanks for sharing your stories from the inside. That's AMAZING. Like it's not even insidious; they literally DON'T KNOW anything about actual decoding and the sound-orthography connection? Mercy. That explains a lot, sigh. 

Well I'm just glad you're confirming all this, because it's what I *thought* I was seeing. I agree, the comprehension stuff looks good, strategies look good. Just they need a good dose of actual decoding so it's not covering up for their funky guessing with cues strategy.

Well for Kbutton on magazines, it looks like I had pulled Spider and ASK. Spider is perfect for this year and ASK is a stretch. I could do it as a read aloud, but right now he would be overwhelmed. But with his glasses, we could probably popcorn it or something. It's definitely not recreational for him. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Moved On said:

I have no clue what this form of reading instruction looks like. I have never witnessed it myself.

It's what Richardson was doing in that first video you linked. And really, it was informative. In the homeschool world we're so used to our bubble of explicit instruction that it's flabbergasting to realize the ps is actually riding on a completely implicit process that depends on cues and guessing.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It's what Richardson was doing in that first video you linked. And really, it was informative. In the homeschool world we're so used to our bubble of explicit instruction that it's flabbergasting to realize the ps is actually riding on a completely implicit process that depends on cues and guessing.

 

I hear you! I was trying to get an overall picture of how the process starts before they get to that stage. So, I assume they teach the letter names and sounds and then move on to this?

I have always hated these "ruh" for "r" and "tuh" for "t" etc. sounds they make and that's what the teacher in the second video is doing. It was one thing that I was very careful with when buying videos for my kids. We basically had the Leapfrog collection from very young, but for the consonant blends and digraphs we used curricula. That's where you see the value of also using homeschool curricula ☺️. I even remember SWB's materials putting emphasis on pointing out things like book titles, author names, etc. but I can't remember now in what. Comprehension is assumed in the homeschool world, so you don't have all the explicit strategies for that, as for NT kids without decoding issues, taught with phonics, it would come naturally. But our kids are not NT.

This is why I use a mix of school and homeschool curricula. They both have something valuable, each in its own way, to bring to our atypical learners. You just have to pull out what is useful and suits their learning styles, and just leave out the rest.

[PeterPan]

Well now for your laugh for the day. This next SLP we're trying says she knows about literacy because she managed a Barnes & Noble for a number of years. For real. Now she could mean she likes books and knows children's literature, sure. That's what that could mean. But she said that meant she knew literacy, which means she doesn't even know what literacy is, mercy.

I swear, all I wanted was an SLP who could have a conversation. I ask for so little. Maybe someone who had something in their vocabulary besides no and who didn't use printed "get to know your knew teacher" forms. But they bill at $140 an hour and I'm an idiot.

Sigh. Oh, and for bonus remember the fact that I'm around is why he hated the last SLP, not that she spent the half the time telling him no, had no clue how to engage him or have a conversation, had a huge table in the cubicle (meaning the only way to take a break was LEAVE), didn't sit close or engage him, had no plans for things to do and didn't know how to set up choices, etc. Oh no, it was none of that. It was that I was around, snort. These SLPs cover up incompetence by telling the parent to leave. They want to learn on our dime, at $140 an hour. 

We'll see. I'm driving almost an hour away because the location is close but inconveniently nestled into a busy neighborhood. If they annoy me too much, I'll drop the whole thing. The music therapist was great and the OT has potential. The psych may be fine. Just find an SLP with some social skills and an ability to have a conversation, mercy. Hopefully it will be way better. But once they pull the "well you should leave so it goes better" card, I'm tired of them already. 

[PeterPan]

I reread the email from the SLP, and I'm more hopeful. I'm just gonna chill and see how it goes. She wasn't saying I *can't* go in during the first session, just that she wants part of the time without me. That's totally reasonable. We'll see how it goes. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I reread the email from the SLP, and I'm more hopeful. I'm just gonna chill and see how it goes. She wasn't saying I *can't* go in during the first session, just that she wants part of the time without me. That's totally reasonable. We'll see how it goes. 

I hope it goes better than you expect and becomes a workable solution!

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I swear, all I wanted was an SLP who could have a conversation.

Sigh. Oh, and for bonus remember the fact that I'm around is why he hated the last SLP, not that she spent the half the time telling him no, had no clue how to engage him or have a conversation, had a huge table in the cubicle (meaning the only way to take a break was LEAVE), didn't sit close or engage him, had no plans for things to do and didn't know how to set up choices, etc. Oh no, it was none of that. It was that I was around, snort. These SLPs cover up incompetence by telling the parent to leave. They want to learn on our dime, at $140 an hour. 

But once they pull the "well you should leave so it goes better" card, I'm tired of them already. 

2

It's not too much to ask them to have multiple high-level strategies to work with challenging kids, and I really think that there are probably a lot of training programs that emphasize the therapist is not the parent. But I do want to note something about the parent there/not there thing. Some parents really do change the dynamic, and whether that's bad, good, or neutral is individual or even dependent on the task vs. the family. But sometimes, the parent gets the kid keyed up, or the kid gets a bad vibe from how a parent responds to something (and the parent might be anxious about how it will go). Sometimes the parent doesn't have effective techniques to work with the kid and undermines the session, etc. I don't know if it helps to look at it that way (as a reference point, not as a prescription for you)--it's not unusual for a therapist to work better and be more themselves without a parent hovering. 

I know you are expecting things that are helpful, like a break and a clear way to request one, etc., but really, it will take time to communicate your expectations to even the most experienced therapist. If you get one that listens and understands but takes some time to get used to him, are you going to be okay with that? I mean, really, he's been a moving target even for you for quite some time. 

I do hope that this one will be more competent than knowing literacy from Barnes and Noble though! That's an odd thing for her to say. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

If you get one that listens and understands but takes some time to get used to him, are you going to be okay with that?

Well I ended up napping through the entire thing, and that was fine. He said the SLP was boring, and from the pictures/bios in the hall I think the lady they put him with is the lady who had been in the cubicle adjacent during the first session debacle, meaning she had already overheard enough to have his number. I reread her email to me and realized she was trying to be deferential and polite and respectful, which I can work with. Since I didn't go in, I think that communicates that I'm backing off and gonna let them figure it out. He said she was boring, but I'm not sure boring is such a horrible thing either. We're stretching him to 2 1/2 hours of regulation, where he's been at 1 1/2 before, so that in and of itself is a worthy goal. It's the ability to go into a more challenging setting like church and do the whole thing and stay calm, rather than needing an aide. 

I did send my Color My Conversation kit for her to look at, just because I'd actually like it to get implemented. If she doesn't want to, no biggee. As long as he's coming out green zone and calm, we're good. I get free babysitting and he stretches and deals with someone. I think I'm going to pursue getting massage or something during that time. I'm totally run down at this point and need something to perk me up, so attending to my own health during this 2 1/2 hour block makes sense.

So I really have no clue how it went because I slept, lol. If she writes me, then we'll know something. I'm definitely not going on ds' opinion, because I think he has a lot of room to stretch and deal with new types of people and new personalities, maybe people who don't necessarily cave or cater. Based on what I saw of her during that brief time, I think maybe this lady is a little more introvert, a little more reserved, and she's older (in her 50s). That's a really good difference for him to deal with. In my mind as long as they're SAFE, I'm not going to worry about it. I have a solid plan and solid materials to use at home, and I'm not asking them to solve my problems. I'd basically be looking for a phd level researcher SLP to think the way I want to think, and that's not what these people are trying to do. They *exist* but they don't do private practice. So that's fine, I'll just do my gig.

I took the Jan Richardson books but didn't read any more. I started into the yellow (? I forget) book a couple nights ago, and it expands on the modules that were in the appendix of the other book. I need to keep going to get it sorted out. It's VERY practical, just boom, do this, here are the forms, here are the things to watch for while doing that task. Forms for all the grades/stages. Definitely like.

[kbutton]

16 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well I ended up napping through the entire thing, and that was fine. He said the SLP was boring, and from the pictures/bios in the hall I think the lady they put him with is the lady who had been in the cubicle adjacent during the first session debacle, meaning she had already overheard enough to have his number. I reread her email to me and realized she was trying to be deferential and polite and respectful, which I can work with.

1

Lol! 

I am glad it went fine, and I hope over time it goes WELL. I am glad you got a nap!

[PeterPan]

https://rise.serpmedia.org/index.html  This is the RISE, an online test of decoding, apparently not too expensive ($7) that kicks out lots of data. They used it for a study https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326881378_Decoding_and_reading_comprehension_A_test_of_the_Decoding_Threshold_Hypothesis testing the "Decoding Threshold Hypothesis" or the idea we were discussing here of what effect decoding level has on comprehension. Now obviously that's not going to be specific to the individual, but there is data on what happens to a population. The whole study is there at that link, and I'm reading it now. They're looking at when fluency is predictive, what other factors affect whether decoding is predictive of reading comprehension, etc.

I think the jist is then they're trying to decide if there's evidence to argue that kids with comprehension issues past age 10 (which decoding instruction drops from ps curriculum) should receive DECODING instead of only comprehension. 

So very relevant to our discussion and evidence-based. I agree that that doesn't mean how it necessarily works out for an individual, but still interesting to know what the data is for populations. Gonna keep reading. 

I'm still reading, but apparently they nailed it. You give the kid the RISE, and if the dc is below the threshold from the study, that correlates to why his reading comprehension isn't going up. And it was wicked, with only 1/10th of the gain in RC per year in kids below the reading threshold vs. kids above. And that's gr 5-12, not elementary. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Well I finally got the RISE test administered that I linked to above. The study I linked there gives threshold cutoffs where they found that anyone with WRD (word recognition and decoding) scores below that threshold had reading comprehension scores that were predicted (limited by, correlated to) by their WRD. The RISE testing also provides scaled scores, percentiles for each grade, and charts for each of the 6 subtests to interpret them. Because they are *scaled* scores, you're able to compare strengths/weaknesses in your student across the 6 subtests AND across the years (fall to spring, grade to grade) to track progress. They recommend that 90%ile be the cutoff where a dc could go into regular classroom instruction and no longer need RTI/tiered intervention. The test is normed for gr 5-12, with 11/12 lumped together for scoring, but it allows for a labeling as 4th grade, which is useful for keeping track from administration to administration. So you don't get normed scores for 4th but you're allowed to administer it anyway, which is what I did.

Long story short, he is 99th percentile for 1 of the 6 subtests, 99th++++percentile for 3 more, and 97th percentile for the decoding, his weakest area, relative to 5th graders. If we wanted to ask his percentile in decoding relative to 12th graders, he would be at the 35th percentile for 11/12th graders in the pool they used, which was struggling students who needed intervention. 

So he should continue to receive explicit instruction in all areas to allow him to continue to progress, but there's *not* evidence, not research-based evidence, to say that his word recognition and decoding (fluency) is holding back his reading comprehension. He's well above the threshold the researchers found for that, not only for 5th graders but for EVERY grade. So when he is not choosing to read, it is NOT due to a fluency issue. We made a long list, but at least for age-appropriate reading material, there's no reason to say fluency is what is holding him back. 

Oh, the 6 subtests are:

-word recognition and decoding (fluency, dealing with novel words)

-vocabulary (relationships, depth)

-morphology (flexible, nuanced)

-sentence processing (complex syntactic structures)

-basic comprehension efficiency (rapid, accurate reading)

-reading comprehension (mental model, inferences)

So I felt like it was cranking out a LOT of actionable data there for the money, and it was interesting to see his brain work. The test is timed and intended to take 1 hour. I turned off the time limit, which administrators can do, and he completed the entire test, including logins, in less than 40 minutes. The WRD subtest was the most interesting, because they had them responding with real word, not a real word, SOUNDS like a real word, meaning in one test of 50 words they were assessing decoding, phonological process, AND spelling, boom. I was amazed. I think visual memory could clearly impact that for students, and I was surprised how well he did. I think he could have actually done better on that section. It was first and he was very stressed, thinking it was going to be too hard and long. Once he got in and realized he was fine, he blew through the whole thing.

So for $7 and an hour of your life plus set-up, you're getting a lot of actionable data there. It's not the Iowa or something, looking at lots of CC standards, but when your question is intervention and where to target your intervention, this is pretty good for the money. I got a lot of data, got it fast, and I didn't have to pay a tutor $75 for the CTOPP plus DAR or something. Those tests have their place in diagnosis, but for then making intervention decisions this is cool for the price.

Edited September 1, 2018 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

I'm back. So talked with dh, the perceptive one, about the results and he says well it doesn't matter because it's STRESSFUL and until the decoding, etc. comes to the point where it's not STRESSFUL, he won't read. 

So I think I'm going to play with the math and see, but I think that speaks to that idea of taking the decoding up. 

[Kanin]

That's a lot of good data. Nice decoding! Yeah! Well, if fluency isn't an issue, have you tried finding really motivating books, like you were talking about earlier? I'd even put books/magazines in strategic places.... like the bathroom. LOL. Seriously, though, captive audience! 

I'm trying to remember when I really started to read for pleasure. I'm a voracious reader now, but I have a distinct memory of slogging through some book around 2nd/3rd grade. And I didn't have any language holes to complicate things. A lot of my students, even if they were decoding just fine, wouldn't choose to read if there were other options available. I think there is a really wide range of when kids start to read for pleasure - you could do some googling about when kids start doing that. I bet you'll feel better because for many kids, it's much older than 9! ? 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

have you tried finding really motivating books, like you were talking about earlier?

Yup, I've got some stuff but I'm working on ordering more. I was kinda trying to space out my costs because I also ordered SKILL, am buying new glasses, etc. Me and my great ideas, lol. But yeah, pretty much my thought right now is to get enough hi-lows, etc. that surely SOMETHING will work. I have the intermediate set of readers for Reading Recipe coming, found a deal on ebay. So yes, I've had the windows open for a week or two now, trying to decide, lol. 

That's an interesting point on the age and that you had a slog time, hmm. And yes, what I'm wanting to do is getting something so tight/right that I can assign it in the car, just boom you're required to read it for 30 minutes or till this page, end of discussion. That's where I'm going. But I'd like him to be on the cusp, where I see every other factor coming together, before I pull that behavioral card, kwim? 

When I played with the numbers, his 262 for word reading and decoding is 96th percentile for 5th, 92nd for 6th, and 82nd for 7th. So if we said 90th percentile is mastery (which is what the test says), then we could say his instructional level is maybe 6th (which is where he functions actually) and his pleasure reading would therefore be 3rd-4th. Then I would take that a further step back and say his low-stress reading level would be more like 1st-2nd. So if I start him with hi-lows at that 1st gr decoding, high interest, higher language, longer length than what he's used to, work him up, and just keep going. If I keep him in hi-los, I'm being respectful of that. And meanwhile we could bump that decoding up to 9th over the year, at which point he would maybe pleasure/stress-free read more age-appropriately without hi-low material. 

So by the math, hi-lo readers make sense. I have usborne books, etc. that are on his level. I think he'd love some of the non-fiction hi-lo books. I actually think he'll engage more with them than the stories. So that was why my cart seemed to be getting a little full, because it all looked good! 

http://www.capstonepub.com/consumer/brands/you-choose-books/  I've had this tab open for some time. I don't remember if we mentioned them here or if they were in that expo vendor list. Anyways, they seem really good. Sometimes kids will stretch. Maybe something like that would be good in the car, because the choices would keep him going. Kids definitely push themselves when they are engaged. 

Also, I don't know if we mentioned this yet, but Serravallo behind Reading/Writing Strategies has leveled book kits http://www.akjeducation.com/en/jennifer-serravallo-go-to-books  I thought they'd be better for together reading, guided reading, etc.

He's doing really well with his new glasses btw. He's choosing to wear them and wears them every day, full-time. So surely having that corrected will help too. That's why I was taking some time here to collect data and regroup, because I wanted to let his perspective on reading refresh with his new eyes. He went from not wearing correction to *significant* astigmatism correction. His writing is looking a fuzz better too, hmm. He's doing nicely with Spelfabet (which is BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT, did I mention enough how much I love it??).

So it's just money. So many ideas, don't wanna upset the man who pays the bills. The teacher college lending library only has F&P leveled readers, nothing hi-lo that I've seen. I could check. If I could borrow hi-lo, that would solve it. I could try in the big city...

Edited September 1, 2018 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

Ha, yeah, I hear you on the money thing. So many cool things, not so much money ? As far as hi-lo, I think that's a great idea, but I also think you could go to the library and get 2nd-3rd grade level regular books about things he really likes. I've seen tons of lego books, Star Wars, what have you. If he's into battles, there are books about battleships and tanks and wars and military uniforms through the years and etc., etc., etc... You could pick a couple topics and head straight to the children's nonfiction section. And that's free, so if it doesn't work out, no biggie ? 

As far as decoding level, it sounds like he's good to go for a long time! I'd do the absolute minimum of spelling instruction (important sight words for his grade level, for instance) and leave it at that. Your LiPS+Barton super combo clearly worked wonders!

Edited September 1, 2018 by Mainer

[Terabith]

How did you get the RISE test?  Is that something you can just order?

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Mainer said:

? ...As far as hi-lo, I think that's a great idea, but I also think you could go to the library and get 2nd-3rd grade level regular books about things he really likes. I've seen tons of lego books, Star Wars, what have you. If he's into battles, there are books about battleships and tanks and wars and military uniforms through the years and etc., etc., etc... You could pick a couple topics and head straight to the children's nonfiction section. And that's free, so if it doesn't work out, no biggie ? 

As far as decoding level, it sounds like he's good to go for a long time! I'd do the absolute minimum of spelling instruction (important sight words for his grade level, for instance) and leave it at that. Your LiPS+Barton super combo clearly worked wonders!

I'm having a moment. I think you're right, because that's what I was thinking when I looked at the samples of the non-fiction hi-lo readers on HN. To me they looked a lot like the type of non-fiction books I've been grabbing to study states and countries with ds. Those books are all integrated in, all the reading levels, all the language levels, into the dewey decimal stacks. So you're saying go to the Civil War section or whatever and pull all the books at the appropriate language level and plop him in the chair and say GO. Yes? Not quite idiot-proof but the price would be right, lol.

The nice thing about that would be I can win on non-fiction while we do our SKILL/narrative work. I read they (the Gillams) originally got into working on narrative because they were trying to improve comprehension. I'm hoping that working on narrative and visualization (separate things) may bring some more strengths and pieces to the table.

Non-fiction is so gaggy. I'm saying that, sigh. I was planning on pulling Gibson books on science and going through them with him. I've already had him doing shorter stuff. Like if you put the non-fiction children's section books at the non-intimidating level, the actual content isn't much more than the one page articles he's been reading and doing comprehension questions on. Different format, but not much more content. I need to think there. My dd did a lot with like Usborne books, and he has shied away from them. But that was before his glasses. That's a pretty normal stage of reading though and something that draws kids in, those topical Usborne and DK type books, and you're right he's never gotten sucked into them. I've had to moderate everything. He's never just sat down by himself.

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

How did you get the RISE test?  Is that something you can just order?

See what happens when you click the link I gave earlier up the thread. It should say something like set up an account as administrator, and you do that. It was no hassle, just a fillable pdf that you complete and email to them. Once your account is set up, you enter students, create a testing session, and buy the needed number of tests at $7 each. You download their secure browser to the device you'll be using for the testing and have another device (phone, computer, whatever) to log in and confirm the student after you enter his testing ID code. At that point you just do the test. Every section has a practice built in, so I would go directly to the test and not screw around with the separate practice option. All that did was scare my ds and intimidate him into thinking he couldn't do it, lol. You can pause testing and return different times, different days, whatever. The only big no no is hitting END. Don't hit END till you really mean to be done.

That's it. $7, one hour, 6 subtests. And you can sit there and watch, so you're actually seeing for yourself where their breakdowns are.

[Lecka]

I think, think back to your routine when he was doing the F and P readers.  It sounded pretty supportive and engaging.

If it works out, great, but a lot of kids aren’t going to be able to go from not reading independently to reading 30 minutes all by themselves.  There are so many ways to build a routine and provide support.  

I also think, I have seen with my older son, a big difference between “book time” and “reading time.”  He loved DK books and would look at them for a long time.  What would he read?  Maybe a little sub-heading.  Maybe a caption.  He would be very engaged and it would be building his affinity for books and reading, and thinking of himself as a reader.  But how much text was he reading?  Not necessarily much at all.  

Maybe he could be more involved in picking books.  That is a tough one here.

Also, buzz from peers goes a long way.  If there is a book that is new and cool, that maybe other kids are reading, that goes a long way sometimes.  

There is a new Dog Man book out, lol.  It’s a pretty popular series.  We just got it.  It’s a series to preview for sure, to see if it is appropriate.  

If there is any series that peers a little older like, that can go a long way, too.  I have heard a lot about how so-and-so has such-and-such series because so-and-so’s older sibling had them.  It is really motivating to some kids.

It’s been a long process here to build up to independent reading, it takes a lot of motivation and routine, I think.

Here routine goes a long way, it’s something to think about, if there might be a time of day.  Get out snacks, etc.

 First/then for after reading.  

Also none of them do right now, but for a while two of my kids have wanted to have “child” tea and sit with me while I drink tea and read.  Maybe if your husband reads the newspaper or a magazine with any routine, that is a routine he could join with his own newspaper or magazine.   

Before bed, after a meal, before a meal, at a snacktime, these are times I like to tie reading to a routine, because I am decent at keeping those things consistent, and then if reading is tied to something I already do, it is easier to keep up the routine.  

I think it can take years.  

But it can be a high demand to read and comprehend, it is fine to provide more support and make it a little easier on him.  It can be hard to follow along with the story just as far as comprehension, even when decoding is good.  

I also think, if he showed an “overwhelmed” response with the reading test, look for things that aren’t overwhelming.  Maybe less text on a page, more pictures, etc.  Things with a lot of small writing in text bubbles can look overwhelming.  You can start smaller, or provide more support (maybe he just reads one text bubble per page and you read the rest, until he sees he can do it).  Watch him and see what does and doesn’t make him seem overwhelmed.  If something “looks” overwhelming then boom, he is producing stress chemicals that are going to effect his reading, and it’s a very negative cycle to get in to.  Ask me how I know, lol.  

[PeterPan]

Yup, that's why I wanted to order the HN books, so I could have a progression, leveled, consistent. That way I KNOW it works and is right and we don't go through this thing of oh I didn't like that one or oh that one was too hard. It would just be nope, that's the next one in the pile and we do it and keep going. That's what we had with the leveled F&P readers. We were at the point where they were dragging (really boring) and about to switch over to regular books anyway. But as a method of working together, yes, FABULOUS. That's why I keep being drawn to them. I have a set of the Reading Reflex readers coming (mid-level), and they have pictures and more supports I think. The HN books I think are probably, um, a bit more demanding on several levels  (maturity, language complexity, themes, etc.). I'm not sure, but that's how it looked to me. So I figured I could marry them for a given skill and create a progression. 

I think you're right the DK books would descend into pictures plus captions, and that's not what I'm looking for. It can be more. The Choose Your Own Adventure books would be safer. I just looked at them again, and the lexile index on the You Choose Adventure books is 700, ouch. Ok, this is a hoot! Turns Choose Your Own Adventure has a Dragonlark series that is just right! Score. It has picture supports, so I still need to buy things that he's using visualization to comprehend. The picture supports are AWESOME, but he needs to be working on visualization too. I got a set of pictures and word cards at Walmart that I'm thinking I'll use to get us going on our Talkies/V/V stuff. The Dragonlark I can buy now, implement now, and we can do visualization alongside and then use that to get us to the next step. I also have the HN2 tm coming, because I suspect it's true that taking his decoding up would be good. I want their comprehension prompts too (the ones in the tm) because I liked what I was seeing there.

I was realizing he's ready to read The Beginner's Bible: Timeless Children's Stories  I read this to him years ago, but he could read it for himself now.

So at least I have one more step with the Dragonlarks and the Beginner's Bible. That's stuff I can require and get going, and there's nothing that I can see holding him back from being able to do either, which means it's ok to use behavioral strategies. For chapter text with no picture supports, yes we have more issues. For stories with more complex plots and comprehension issues, yes we'll have issues. But not for these two things. For these, I think with support he can just do them, boom.

[PeterPan]

Turns out our library has the majority of those lower level CYoa books, so I requested those. CYOA has a coupon for 30% off too... 

Edited September 2, 2018 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

I think a lot of support is emotional support, not just reading support.  If he doesn’t have confidence and motivation,then emotional support and building up positive associations about reading go a long way.  

I also require (and have required in the past, with my older son) reading with behavioral methods.

It is so important to build a lot of positive associations then.

Unless by “behavioral methods” you mean pairing.  Pair away.  This is the perfect time to pair.  Pair reading with good things.  That can be warm, stress-free time with mom or dad.  That can be hot chocolate.  That can be special cookies.  That can be getting out a cozy blanket.  

Really, I think it sounds like he is at a pairing level.  You want him to do something he doesn’t currently seek out.  

One side is skill.

The other side may be behavioral.  On the behavioral side — I think pair it.

If you skip pairing on the behavioral side, then where are the positive associations to carry him through when he gets stressed or frustrated.  That is the problem with not pairing.  Also that if you make someone do something without pairing, they are not developing initiative to do it.  Initiative is based on motivation.  

Where is the motivation?

For typical kids you include social things like wanting to be a big kid, wanting to emulate older peers, personal pride, and things like that. It’s much more than “I like reading and I’m not having too hard of a time, I think I’ll pick up a book now.”  

There are a lot of hooks for kids.

If they have associations that learning to read is hard, reading is hard, reading is boring, reading is work, then those are all associations that have to be overcome by pairing.  Not just balanced. Overcome.  If learning to read IS hard, or if following along with a book and making connections is hard, then it takes a huge amount of practice and instruction.  Kids have motivation issues even to participate in tutoring!  Tutors are going out of their way to build a rapport and all those things.  

My oldest son does read independently now, but reading used to be hard work for him.  He had to forget that reading was hard before he ever read independently.  He had to start saying things like “reading used to be hard, back when I was younger,” like the memory had been replaced by “I’m a good reader now.”

It really took until he could sit down with a book and not have any feelings like “this is too hard,” and that “overwhelm” makes it really hard.  The “overwhelm” feeling is not logical!  It stays even after reading has gotten easier.  It can go away but it goes away so slowly.  For some “overwhelm” issues with my older son, more than just reading, the very good resource teacher he had told me she hoped to help him over it, over 1-2 years.  1-2 years is a long time!!!!!!  He was in 5th grade at the time.  And he is not even diagnosed with anxiety or anything, this was just getting over “this is too hard” and having an anxiety spiral, for him.  It takes a lot of emotional support and gradually building up, staying below the threshold of the anxiety response, etc.  

It takes a long time and a lot of positive associations and positive experiences.  It takes a lot of experiences of reading being enjoyable and not stressful at all.  

I think your son sounds like he is doing well (like on the test) when you are with him and support him to keep going.  

It is a big jump to go from him being able to do it (and it sounds like it went very well) when you support him, to doing it without your support, doing it independently.  It’s not the case that skill is the only issue.  

I think maybe bring it up with the counselor.  It is stuff that can go well with a counselor.

It does go back to the “skill vs motivation” issue.

Its horrible to treat a skill issue like a motivation issue, and just do motivating activities without giving them the good decoding instruction they need.  

But the motivating stuff is also so important!  

 

[Lecka]

https://www.iloveaba.com/2013/05/pairing.html?m=1

This is about pairing.

Its only about pairing between an adult and a child, though.

As far as reading, I have actually focused on pairing “reading” and “pleasant things.”  I have done this with support from ABA because my son used to hate being read to.  Just having a warm, loving connection to me was not enough for him to pair “mom” with “mom is reading to me” with “I like being read to.”  

And then it has been one step at a time, from “I will tolerate being read to” to “I will ask to be read to because mom is saying no to other things but I know she will stop what she is doing if I request reading” to “choosing reading when there are other options” to.....

So I think for behavioral, take a hard look at his current level.  What kinds of books are stress-free to him.  What is his relationship to reading.

The thing is that a goal of “independent free choice reading” is an extremely high goal.  There are a lot of steps to get there and they take a long time.  

Yes some kids do go straight there, but many do not.  

Edit: the thing about pairing is that it is usually talked about for one page, because it’s not that hard or technical.  But it is so important and it’s relevance and time goes WAY beyond the amount of time it takes to read a page about it.  

Its not that easy to build a rapport, or to help kids to build a rapport with things that will be good for them but that they are not naturally drawn to, or that are hard for them to learn.  It is very hard, it takes a long time.  

The other thing is — this is one of the most powerful behavioral techniques!!!!!!!!!  It really is!!!!!!!!!  But it doesn’t “look” hard, it is one where it doesn’t look like it’s “doing” anything and then all of a sudden the therapist has a good rapport (and keeps it up) and the child is doing all kinds of things and willing to put themselves out there because of the rapport, and the rapport comes from pairing.

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Lecka

[Kanin]

I completely agree with you, Lecka! Rapport is so important. And making reading a pleasant experience is, too! You can add cuddles, a favorite snack, etc., whatever your son associates with good times ?

For library non-fiction, there are always a bazillion of the Step into Reading series in the Easy Reader section. It's usually it's own section in the kids' area. There aren't too many words on a page, and there are great pictures. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/SR6/step-into-reading

My all-time favorite early level non-fiction series is called Step-Up books by Random House, from the 60s and 70s. They all have titles like, "Reptiles Do The Strangest Things," etc. They have more words, but are easy, and still have pictures. My very dyslexic 10 year old student grabbed the reptiles book from me when I showed it to him and proceeded to read two pages IN FRONT of the class. It was an absolute first for him. His mom and I were floored! He was tickled pink! You can buy these books on Amazon, and eBay is also a great place to find them. Highly recommend. I bet they can be found in the library, or you could request them through interlibrary loan. An example: https://www.amazon.com/Animals-Strangest-Things-Step-Up-Books/dp/0394800567

 

 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

The other side may be behavioral.  On the behavioral side — I think pair it.

Yup, this is the way we did the F&P readers. I'm probably going to go ahead and get the HN books I want too. That way I've got stacks of different kinds of things and can have multiple sessions. 

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

It really took until he could sit down with a book and not have any feelings like “this is too hard,” and that “overwhelm” makes it really hard.

This is really profound. 

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

It is a big jump to go from him being able to do it (and it sounds like it went very well) when you support him, to doing it without your support, doing it independently.

What has happened so far is that as he has enough support to do the stepped up expectation and gets it going, I'm able to fade that support. So with the subject area reading comprehension worksheets we started with popcorn reads and faded to him doing the entire thing independently, just naturally, with time. Probably I expected a LEAP in my mind, like oh he can read it here so now he can read it there. And what you're saying is he'll need support at that level to read it in the new setting, the new thing, and then he'll chill. 

I think the Dragonlark CYOA books will be good. Do you think they will have re-readability? Ds seems to thrive on novelty, so I don't whether he'll reread books and appreciate having them around for that. Sometimes it really helps to own something and go that's MY book and *I* read it.

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Mainer said:

My all-time favorite early level non-fiction series is called Step-Up books by Random House, from the 60s and 70s. They all have titles like, "Reptiles Do The Strangest Things," etc. They have more words, but are easy, and still have pictures. My very dyslexic 10 year old student grabbed the reptiles book from me when I showed it to him and proceeded to read two pages IN FRONT of the class. It was an absolute first for him. His mom and I were floored! He was tickled pink! You can buy these books on Amazon, and eBay is also a great place to find them. Highly recommend. I bet they can be found in the library, or you could request them through interlibrary loan. An example: https://www.amazon.com/Animals-Strangest-Things-Step-Up-Books/dp/0394800567

Actually, if you want a good laugh, I have some of these.  Now I'm gonna have to raid my stash and see. 

PS. What's your take on rereadability with him? Is he likely to reread or more likely to want novelty and keep going? I guess on the CYOA books I would seem him buzzing through the first level and going to the 2nd. That's what I would suspect could happen as he gets more comfortable. But I really don't know at all. The CYOA publisher is having a good sale (30% off, reasonable shipping), making it a good deal to buy through there if I'm going to buy. But if the library is good enough, there's no point. On the lower level (Dragonlark), the library had all but about 8. I haven't checked on the upper level series yet. I also think if I asked the library would buy the remaining books. I'm just more thinking about that emotional thing, like owning a book, saying it's mine, seeing it and knowing you read it...

Edited September 2, 2018 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Actually, if you want a good laugh, I have some of these.  Now I'm gonna have to raid my stash and see. 

PS. What's your take on rereadability with him? Is he likely to reread or more likely to want novelty and keep going? I guess on the CYOA books I would seem him buzzing through the first level and going to the 2nd. That's what I would suspect could happen as he gets more comfortable. But I really don't know at all. The CYOA publisher is having a good sale (30% off, reasonable shipping), making it a good deal to buy through there if I'm going to buy. But if the library is good enough, there's no point. On the lower level (Dragonlark), the library had all but about 8. I haven't checked on the upper level series yet. I also think if I asked the library would buy the remaining books. I'm just more thinking about that emotional thing, like owning a book, saying it's mine, seeing it and knowing you read it...

Good question! I guess you'll have to wait and see ? One of my boys was quite serious about the CYOAs.... he insisted on starting from the beginning EVERY time, rather than just skipping ahead to see where the different paths would take him, like I would if I were reading them. I have some books I re-read every couple years, and I would think it might be the same for your son with some favorites, or maybe you'll find a really cool book about every battle in the Civil War, or something, that he looks at for months. It'll be exciting to find out!!

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think maybe bring it up with the counselor.  It is stuff that can go well with a counselor.

It does go back to the “skill vs motivation” issue.

Its horrible to treat a skill issue like a motivation issue, and just do motivating activities without giving them the good decoding instruction they need.  

Boom, this is why I was being so obsessively thorough and gathering data. I think you're right that the *overwhelmed* component and strategies for what he can do when he's overwhelmed is prime stuff to bring up with the counselor. That's the kind of stuff they're trying to target. I'll probably need to have a list of things. I think he may have gotten out his feelings tool box from his art therapy program earlier this year because after he finished the testing I noticed it open. There was a stress ball inside and he had used it. It's kind of cool because they *made* the tools and learned how to use them, so they have some attachment to them. I put them beside the computer in his office, so they're right there.

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

my son used to hate being read to.  Just having a warm, loving connection to me was not enough for him to pair “mom” with “mom is reading to me” with “I like being read to.”

That's actually what clued me in that ABA was dramatically incomplete in their assessment of things and too prone to treat things as behavioral that had other underlying causes. Our worker in the early days forced read aloud time and paired reading, even though I had specifically said not to do paired/forced reading. And of course ABA is god, anyone but me is god, and they know best. So they stressed him out with forced crap, calling it behavioral, and all that reversed very nicely on its own when I got significant language intervention. It was the language delay and they weren't prepared to address that. Now they could say well forced (compelled, lock the kid in a room with you) interaction IS working on language and that's why such and such bumps.

Sorry, but I'm cynical. These therapists are all SO PIGEONHOLED. The SLPs slam and backbite the behaviorists (even SLP BCBAs! seriously!!), and the behaviorists think they're enough. Nobody is thorough and pulling it all together. I'm ranting. But yeah, we did that and it was SO STRESSFUL and SO counterproductive. A tiny portion of it was behavioral, but the majority of it was language. Ds loves for me to read to him now, loves it. We had that major language push, and now I can read tons to him and all kinds of things are accessible. 

[Lecka]

It does sound so counter-productive.  It does not sound like the quality was there.  

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

It does sound so counter-productive.  It does not sound like the quality was there.  

We were desperate and they were experts, but they made problems in the long run. He has to be worked with in integrity and it doesn't matter a fig what someone who is inexperienced THINKS they can do or make happen. It's like your church stuff in the other thread. They can mean well all they want, but he is who he is. 

But that's why I think so hard and seem to overthink, because I'd rather NOT do it than to push in error due to rushing and not considering. So I'm just taking my time and slowly working till things till I'm positive we can push forward harder in a given way.

His handwriting is improving slightly btw. He's doing the Spelfabet pages and improving with tolerance and confidence AND legibility, which is really super stellar. I started him in unit 1, which is simple CVC words, and I love that he has the pictures. So they do 4 pages to every unit, filling in blanks for the first letter, last, vowel, and then writing the whole word. So he's getting lots of time to ponder the spelling and attend to the number of sounds AND he's getting spelling paired with meaning in his mind. I really think they could have been distinct before, with spelling in tiles not connecting to meaning. I think it's good for his visualization and comprehension to be adding this visual component. Love it. And of course I love when I get anything idiot-proof, because then we can just work diligently and get through it. Spelfabet is definitely idiot-proof for us, a total winner. He was only writing single words before, and now he's writing 12 words on a page and willing to do more pages, score!

The other thing that is coming together there and probably improving the handwriting is the work of the new OT and getting his glasses. We've just gotten to a really sweet spot here where he seems to be improving and doing really nicely with the level of attention they're giving and his readiness to come back and be calm and work (other days, not the heavy therapy day). It's just really good stuff. Today he spent hours playing store and using lots of complete sentences of language to explain his play, say what he was doing, collaborate. It was really amazing! After so much fighting to find things and get access, it's nice just to have things seeming to go pretty well.

The highest levels of Spelfabet should dove tail into the HN2 work nicely. We'll see when it comes. I didn't bother to correlate them, but they will. It's stuff we've already covered, but I think taking that level higher will improve that confidence issue. 

Oh, you mentioned motivation. That's easy. He's bored and has a gifted brain and hungers for things. Reading is the logical way to get what he's hungry for. When he's watching tv, etc., that's what he's doing, trying to fill in that gap. So as soon as we can get the reading so easy and so stress free that he can just do it, he has plenty of built-in, internal drive to tell him to do it.

[Lecka]

The HN 2 books do look really good.  

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

The HN 2 books do look really good.  

You mean the sample of the tm? Yeah, it has enough that I could use with ds that it's worthwhile to get. I picked up a used copy for a fuzz less, though still not as cheap as I would have liked. I dithered and finally decided just to go with my gut. I think the extended word lists will be good drills for fluency for the things that maybe he knows but that aren't EASY yet. And the comprehension strategies are both integrated into the lessons *and* provided in a scope and sequence chart, meaning I should be able to repair, to some degree, whatever was covered in HN1 that we don't have. So I figured just as a starting point, it was a good place. 

I was scanning through HN's FB, trying to see if they had any coupons for Labor Day (they didn't) and came across this link https://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-07-gene-role-poor-speech-dyslexia.html  It's similar to research studies I had read. It's looking at the DCDC2 gene and phonological processing. 23andme *does* kick back 2 RS snps for this gene, and specifically for RS1419228 ds is homozygous for the defect. It results in decreased phonological discrimination, causing both dyslexia and speech problems. It explains why we always seemed to have this toggle with his speech therapy, like his phonological processing was holding back his speech. There was a point where we finally paused and worked HARD on phonological processing, and that gave him a boost in what they could do in his speech therapy.

So anyways, that's all to say if anyone thinks his scores are because he wasn't actually dyslexic, nope. He's genetically dyslexic, confirmed. I've seen studies showing at least 12 genes known to be involved in dyslexia, and mercifully he only has this one. I can't imagine the hole we'd be in if he had more, and I think (my assumption is) that more severe dyslexia is because there are more dyslexia gene issues involved. That's my assumption. But like the article says, this defect is a lack of wiring and intense work, 100 exposures vs. 20, will make that wiring. 

What's interesting with him is that he doesn't seem to *forget* or regress when we take off, unlike other dyslexics. Maybe a little crunchy, but like yesterday when we were working in Spelfabet on what Barton calls the FLOSS rule (double F/L/S after a single vowel at the end of a baseword), it was just there for him, boom. And other phonograms that we haven't covered explicitly in a year even were just there for him. So that part is a real mercy and not necessarily typical of all kids. But since I only have to teach him, we'll roll with it. I'm just saying it's what lets me get away with this funky on, off, jumping around thing. He doesn't regress much when we pause, and it's actually good because it lets it gel and go deep and generalize to other areas and be seen in other places and get those connections. At this point, the real trouble will be that he's going to need significant extra time in his education just to get through the basics.

Well so many things to do today. I still don't have my new glasses decided. 

[PeterPan]

This just came through on another list. http://www.upload.einollahi.org/uploads/1415435599.pdf  This is a link to a pdf of Pennington's book for neuropsychs Diagnosing Learning Disabilities. page 62 apparently has a section exploring the connection between phonological deficits, language impairments, rapid naming, and processing speed. Apparently having the SLI on top of the phonological is what juts it over to significant reading disability. Apparently you can have the phonological WITHOUT the SLI and survive. Rapid naming was predictive.

That's actually one of the interesting things on these SLP-oriented reading lists, because they emphasize the connection between SLD Reading and dyslexia and say that it's a language disorder, that the kids actually tend to need LANGUAGE work, not just phonological processing. 

Well that's your rabbit trail for the morning.

[Lecka]

I was looking at the HN level 2 hi-lo books.  They do look nice.  

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I was looking at the HN level 2 hi-lo books.  They do look nice.  

I will go look! I've been looking at the Sound Out chapter books, so I've got stuff muddled in my brain.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I know what it is. I was looking at the hi-lo level 1 readers, and when I showed ds samples he wasn't biting. I'll go look at the level 2 more. 

[Lecka]

Right now my son likes Henry and Mudge and Owl Diaries.  

[PeterPan]

Ok, the level 2 hi-los ARE much better!! I can get him to read the Sound Out Chapter books simply by requiring them, boom done. But the hi-lo level 2 books I could do as the paired reading that we try to get him to destress and chill to read. He can easily read those, so it's more a matter of staying calm. Like I'm specifically looking at this Pets Rule https://www.highnoonbooks.com/detailHNB.tpl?action=search&cart=15359851056901526&eqskudatarq=2187-6&eqTitledatarq=Pets Rule!&eqvendordatarq=ATP&bobby=[bobby]&bob=[bob]&TBL=[tbl] and he would totally get into that. Nothing in the level 1 was really clicking, even though I wanted it too, but he would really like these.

Star Lab--too hard. lots of names, longer sentences, etc., lexile 330-390

Play to Win--too mature, lexile 350-430

Pets Rule-lexile 250-350

Secret Spies--harder but this can work after Pets Rule, lexile 290-370

It's All True level 2--he'd like these!!!!!! He can definitely read them. I can look at level 1 to see if starting there and progressing up would be good. Definite winner., lexile 450-530. And yeah, that's a much higher lexile! But I think with non-fiction he can go up and with social, dialogue, plots to follow, the lexile has to go down. That's what I'm seeing. Checked and the level 1 are easily fine. 

Hawk Davidson--better later. 

Scoop Doogan--better later, maybe after Secret Spies. lexile 250-370 but more complex socially, unlike say the flying screaming cats in Pets Rule, lol.

Trail Blazers--he would like this and could read it now, along with Pets Rule, lexile 240-360

The Mountain Men--This is really charming. Maybe alongside Secret Spies, so the next step after Pets Rule and Trail Blazers.

***

So he could conceivably have multiple books going, all at a similar level

Pets Rule + Trail Blazers+ It's All True level 2

Secret Spies + The Mountain Men 

***

Ok, this is weird. I'm going back and looking at the hi-lo level 1 readers, and the lexile is often the same! The sentences are just more choppy. Ds doesn't need that. He's going to engage better with writing that sounds a bit nicer, because he already has enough fluency and tolerance to read that way. So yeah, I think you're right that the level 1 readers were just too low and that's why he wasn't engaging. When I look at the level 2 readers, I see stuff that he'll stretch to stay calm and read, and he wasn't doing that with the level 1 samples, even when they were really cute. It just wasn't where he was. If he was at that level, he definitely would have engaged I think, because they're really charming, like the one with the kids who shrink and transform (Super-Wild). I was totally amazed he didn't get into that. I think if we go up but increase supports, it will actually be better. It will get him into something he's more likely to enjoy reading, something that is worth the EFFORT for him to stay calm and engage. And it's totally measured and controlled, so as long as he stays calm he can get there. It's not going to be variable and all over the place like a regular book. That's what is hard with just saying oh use regular books. He can be floating along and then a spurt comes in that overwhelms him. So really controlled is really good right now.

I'm saying all that, but I'm looking at these samples of Super-Wild and it's really cute! Lexile 240-290. I think what's challenging is the social thinking, the inferencing, the slower pace. It's not this bang bang of stuff like non-fiction. You have to slow down and let it unwrap, which is another skill.

i'll keep looking at the level 1s.

 

[PeterPan]

Leela and Ben + It's All True level 1 could go before Pets Rule. 

Leela and Ben--cute mystery, lexile 220-260. It has that slow pace social thing going. 

Super-Wild--I think this really needs visualization to work, lexile 240-290

The Heights--ok, this series surprises me. it starts so disarmingly and gets very interesting. He might get into it, and keeping the sentence length short would allow him to get into the mre complex plots. lexile 40-330

Red Rhino--there are no samples, sigh.Lots of social narrative over lots of topics. Pictures on every 2 page spread, probably similar to what we were doing with the F&P readers.super low lexile

I think I may be losing my mind. I need to see if I can get any of this at the library. 

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Right now my son likes Henry and Mudge and Owl Diaries.  

I've heard of Owl Diaries but haven't looked at it. We have a bunch of Henry and Mudge. You would think my ds would get into it, as he likes dogs. I could try. Nope, just looked at OD is definitely out, lol. 

Henry and Mudge I already have. The normal progression is from there to Nate the Great, etc. I have tons of stuff like that I collected at sales to use with my dd, and she flat refused to read them. She held out till she could read what she wanted to read. But we'll see. I have them to throw at him, sure.

[PeterPan]

Well I'm EXCITED!!!!!!!!!  I showed him the lower level CYOA books, and he was crazy for them!!! He can read them easily, AND they have picture supports. The choice part appeals to him too and breaks it up. He was in love, so I just decided to go a little crazy and get all of them. Well not all, I skipped the princess ones and the one about ninjas at a wedding. He might have gotten into that, but probably not, lol. Maybe we can try the library for that, lol.

So with the 30% coupon and the $4.95 flat fee shipping, it really came out to a decent price, and it's something I KNOW he can read, that I KNOW he'll get into. So it's just a definite win, something that is idiot proof that I can hand him in the car, whatever, and know that he can just READ and he'll be fine. And I think that's why I wanted to buy them, even though they might not have a lot of rereadability, because I just don't want stress about losing them, etc. And he's really never had a chance to be a reader and identify with books and say these are MINE. And there's no doubt these are his, because they aren't inherited, nothing. They're just his to stake a claim on and enjoy.

So I think that means we're good with the HN2 books too, because these CYOA books were labeled for gr2. 

I did talk with him about the Henry and Mudge, because I agree they're humorous, charming, not too hard to read, something we already have, blah blah. He just said something about them not being "worth" it, which is what I suspected. There has to be this merger of reading being a bit hard and the material being WORTH it to read. That's why hi-lo or something like the CYOA is probably going to be better, because we can drop the reading level and keep those more complex themes and things. 

I think what I'll do is probably look at the HN books again and just go with my gut. I put a lot of stock in mother gut and in our being attuned to our kids. The things I've thought were iffy he didn't really get into, and the things where I have a gut reaction of wow he'll like that, he likes. But for now, I'm excited to have something coming that I think he'll actually READ and not just be forced to but actually enjoy!!!!!!