Stuff on teaching reading

[PeterPan]

I thought I'd start a conversation on teaching reading to parallel the one on writing. I can come out of the closet also and say that although ds *can* read, he does not *choose* to read. That was how the optometrist so nicely put it this weekend.  And of course when you're in that position, you go through a litany and list of explanations. I'd welcome any others you would add.

-decoding

-language (overall receptive/expressive language level)

-vision (acuity)

-vision (developmental)

-lack of visualization

-lack of engagement with the social narrative

-more complex language tasks like inferences, multiple meanings, etc.

-attention

-it's a disability so it's going to be "hard"

-behavioral (it's autism, just sit him down and compel him via ABA methodologies)

And yet somehow it really sucks to me that most of that list is so perjorative and never involves him getting the click, wanting to read, taking it over. Notice I didn't really put on there the whole voodoo thing of reading comprehension is complex and must be taught by a trained professional with years of training. It is complex, with lots of factors coming together, but still I think it has to be knowable, definable. I don't know that me walking him through a reading text or whatever would actually improve the likelihood of him CHOOSING to read. He already reads, and he already reads with comprehension when I give him exercises. He has always read with comprehension, even when he finished 1st grade and was answer comprehension questions on the DAR at the 5th/6th grade reading level. And that was BEFORE we did our massive push on language, BEFORE his diagnosis of a language disability, BEFORE we had the failed scores on the SPELT and TNL. Guess that's what comes of being gifted.

Or, better yet, explain why he will listen to audiobooks at a much higher reading level than what he will tolerate with a single person in the room reading aloud. Maybe he's trying harder to engage? Maybe we pause more for conversation? Maybe the sound isn't as entertainingly stim-like? I don't know. So he has some contradictions there, abilities that mask disabilities.

Nevertheless, it still seems to me that reading should not be FORCED, that reading should flow naturally as the pieces come together, with gentle, appropriate prompts and facilitation. That's my thesis, even with all his labels. So either my thesis is wrong, or I'm still not doing a good enough job dealing with underlying issues and facilitating.

So I joined this FB Group The Reading and Writing Strategies, which is a discussion group for people using

The Reading Strategies Book: Your Everything Guide to Developing Skilled Readers

The Writing Strategies Book: Your Everything Guide to Developing Skilled Writers

Understanding Texts & Readers: Responsive Comprehension Instruction with Leveled Texts

That 3rd book is on pre-order now, the latest in the series from Serravallo. I hadn't heard them mentioned here yet. Our library system has them, so I'll see what they're like when they come in. They seem to be attempting to be almost encyclopedic in coverage of tools and options.

The FB group seems to be focused on teachers, people getting to the nitty gritty. Someone there brought up the question of graphic novels, and two things stood out

https://nerdybookclub.wordpress.com/2018/07/28/the-great-graphic-novel-experiment-by-sarah-fitzhenry/ This phenomenal blog post, very inspiring, on the idea of embracing graphica and teaching it as literature rather than making it a hidden, dirty thing, and 

Adventures in Graphica: Using Comics and Graphic Novels to Teach Comprehension, 2-6

This Adventures in Graphica, and just the whole idea, is really blowing my mind. We've all known for years that Timberdoodle, etc. sells these things, but I didn't really have a strong sense of them. In fact, what I saw was what Fitzhenry noticed in her initial survey, that sometimes the reading level is actually HARDER than what we would have otherwise given them. 

So I'm not sure it's a solution, but I was at least intrigued. I think I'm also going to be running down the High Noon road pretty soon too and working more on visualization. We did go to the optometrist to get some new glasses ordered. This time his eyes are challenged enough with astigmatism that they've moved from recommended for reading (which he wasn't wearing) to recommended all the time. Low power, but enough cylinders that he may notice the difference and actually really like them. We haven't done any reading comprehension workbooks from Linguisystems (like the Spotlight series, whatever), because I felt like there were more important things to work on. Right now we're working on more complex language like multiple meanings, inferences, etc. I think the High Noon books (which I haven't bought yet) and choose your own adventures (which I haven't pursued yet) could help with engaging with social narrative, as they'd draw in with intense emotion and connection. Chunks and timers can help with the attention thing. His developmental vision seems solid; they screened his convergence and it's STELLAR, like blow your mind spot on, all the way there. They said they could do the longer eval to check tracking and visual perception, but the major things seemed good. Decoding is reasonably solid, testing pretty high years ago. I've started him in Spelfabet as a fresh way of going at it. Ostensibly it's for spelling, but I think it will bring more clicks on syllables too. Because his vocabulary is pretty strong, he can usually sit down and read anything he wants to. Like if you hand him a newspaper and say read, he can read it to you. Now it is true his language testing dropped dramatically this round, which I think is the cumulative effect of not reading and not getting that input while his peers are. So it's not necessarily good enough to read where we'd want him to read, not for that much longer.

Well that was a brain dump. I guess we'll see what happens with the glasses. His behaviorist has been good with my assertion that we ought to work through everything else and get all the pieces in place before reducing it to a behavioral issue. Behavioral would mean we train it, that he needs the push. That may be it in the end, I don't know. He's pretty anxious about the glasses though, sigh. Ha, maybe I need to get him hanging with boys with glasses so he'll feel better! LOL So comment away, anything you see there. I'm looking forward to the Adventures in Graphica book coming. It looks like it will be a straightforward read. The Serravallo books are coming, but they had SO many requests in the library system that it may take a while. I think I was backed up 8 in the queue or something, lol.

And btw, if you used the reading is hard, reading will have to be compelled, etc. approach, I'd be interested on *how* you did that. I do think there will be some compelling at some point, just because I can see that happening. I've just wanted to make sure all the other tools and pieces were in place first. Like getting his eyes checked, obviously I'm going to do that (it had been two years) before I go making some daily slot where we compel it. We had a lot of pieces to work on. But I've been thinking about what that compelled (facilitation through organization and intention? haha) thing would look like. Like even basics, like a spot, a particular kind of chair, independent vs. popcorn, blah blah. When we did it before with the F&P books, we did it at night before bed. It was so totally naturally just to lie down in bed and cuddle and read pages together by iphone light. That really works.  Maybe we go back to that? I'm open to ideas. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

And how about the other dark dirty secret I'm realizing I should ask: HOW LONG did you do that stage? Because, seriously, maybe my vision for the how long is too short. Maybe I thought 1-2 months and maybe it's more like 1-2 years or something, I don't know. 

[ElizabethB]

Also, fluency and accuracy.  My nonsense word test has age normed fluency and accuracy goals:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/NonsenseWordTest.pdf

Most of my students don't enjoy reading until they're above 95% accuracy and above their WPM level for their age. But, that can vary by student.  I had a dyslexic student who really started to enjoy reading on his own once his accuracy got to 98%, but he was still reading at 20 WPM at age 12 at the time.  He was gradually bringing up his WPM rate (started at less than 10 WPM) but started enjoying reading once his accuracy levels got close to 100%.  His accuracy also was slowly increasing.  He was dyslexic and exposed to sight words and incomplete phonics training in school.  He had to work for about a year, repeating my class and my online phonics lessons, until he could read well enough to enjoy reading.

Basically, you're not going to enjoy it until it becomes easy.  

With severe dyslexia, I'm not sure how easy it will ever become, looking at the brain differences explained in Stanislas Dehaene's "Reading in the Brain."  You can keep working, though, the more you work on it, the more you build up the brain pathways and the more you automate the process.  His book is very interesting if you haven't read it already.

He has some articles online:

http://www.unicog.org/biblio/Author/DEHAENE-S.html

He also has a few videos, I have linked to them in my "Your Brain on Reading" playlist:

 

 

[PeterPan]

59 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

Also, fluency and accuracy.  My nonsense word test has age normed fluency and accuracy goals:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/NonsenseWordTest.pdf

Most of my students don't enjoy reading until they're above 95% accuracy and above their WPM level for their age. But, that can vary by student.  I had a dyslexic student who really started to enjoy reading on his own once his accuracy got to 98%, but he was still reading at 20 WPM at age 12 at the time.  He was gradually bringing up his WPM rate (started at less than 10 WPM) but started enjoying reading once his accuracy levels got close to 100%.  His accuracy also was slowly increasing.  He was dyslexic and exposed to sight words and incomplete phonics training in school.  He had to work for about a year, repeating my class and my online phonics lessons, until he could read well enough to enjoy reading.

Basically, you're not going to enjoy it until it becomes easy.  

Ooo now there's a good point! I have some *assumptions* about where he's at, but that's not the same thing as DATA. Hmm... I'll be back after I work on that. 

[ElizabethB]

17 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ooo now there's a good point! I have some *assumptions* about where he's at, but that's not the same thing as DATA. Hmm... I'll be back after I work on that. 

I used to work as a statistician!  I like data!! 

But, even without that, adding data is helpful. My students love to see their progress with advancing reading grade levels, WPM rates, accuracy rates, etc.   It is very motivational to track progress, even more so for my struggling students whose progress seems to just inch along, it is great to be able to go back and compare with actual data, their progress is so incremental they don't notice it otherwise. 

My students who just have guessing problems with sight words usually remediate so fast that they, their parents, and their teachers all notice and are amazed.  But, even with them, they love to be able to have actual numbers to point to and brag about.  (And I don't mind them bragging, most of them start my class with low self esteem and feel stupid because of their reading, it is good for them to finally have something to brag about, reading wise.  Normally, I'm not a fan of bragging, but it this case, I am.)

[ElizabethB]

If you need more nonsense words and want to try with sets of 50, 75, or 100 in the future so you can get detailed progress updates with better accuracy rates, I've got twenty pages worth on my syllables page.  (Rounding errors in accuracy can happen with sets of 25.)

https://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Here is a direct link to the 20 pages of nonsense words:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/ExtraNonsenseWords.pdf

 

[ElizabethB]

I also time a group of nonsense words double spaced in 36 point font vs. single spaced in 12 point font.

And, I time types of words based on the number of consonant blends.  A few of my students have good phonemic awareness for segmenting seeming like hot or heat but have a slowdown when consonant blends are there, so that tells me to work on consonant blend level LiPS type things.

I have that consonant blend timing sheet in this thread:

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The Reading Strategies Book: Your Everything Guide to Developing Skilled Readers

The Writing Strategies Book: Your Everything Guide to Developing Skilled Writers

PeterPan, I posted about these two resources in one of your threads but you did not seem interested so I deleted them. So, yes, they have been mentioned. I own them both and have for about a year now. They are very comprehensive and practical. But, you and I don't agree in views, approach, or resources, so I have nothing useful, to you, to add to this conversation. 

Hope you find the best way to help you child,

M

Edited August 12, 2018 by Guest

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

Also, fluency and accuracy.  My nonsense word test has age normed fluency and accuracy goals:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/NonsenseWordTest.pdf

Most of my students don't enjoy reading until they're above 95% accuracy and above their WPM level for their age. But, that can vary by student.  I had a dyslexic student who really started to enjoy reading on his own once his accuracy got to 98%, but he was still reading at 20 WPM at age 12 at the time.  He was gradually bringing up his WPM rate (started at less than 10 WPM) but started enjoying reading once his accuracy levels got close to 100%.  His accuracy also was slowly increasing.  He was dyslexic and exposed to sight words and incomplete phonics training in school.  He had to work for about a year, repeating my class and my online phonics lessons, until he could read well enough to enjoy reading.

Basically, you're not going to enjoy it until it becomes easy.  

Ok, I'm back. Was the pdf you gave evidence-based? I tried to find the source on 40L but didn't look hard enough there evidently. I'm not trying to be picky, just clarifyin.g https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/?s=fluency  Elleseff is saying oral fluency of passages is a better predictor of reading comprehension than word lists. Also, I've seen some research connecting language levels and reading levels. Basically, I don't think they expect my ds to read at all above his expressive or receptive language levels. I don't totally remember what it said, call it mom brain, ugh. But what I do think would be informative is to get the new SLP we're starting with to run the GORT or another standardized tool. This would actually give us some data.

I did the 40L test myself and got different results on each section, almost implying that I was getting BETTER with each trial, which really makes sense when you think about it. So if the question is whether the person is fluent on reading non-sense words, that's what that tool would show, yes. Ds had scores correlating to his language levels, which is about what I would expect given his overall presentation of developmental delays. He spent half the list LAUGHING and struggled visibly with the unusual combinations for the motor planning. I definitely don't think it's a valid presentation of his fluency, let alone predictive of his reading comprehension.

Btw, apparently prosody is not evidence-based as being tied to comprehension either.

Edited August 12, 2018 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

My students who just have guessing problems with sight words usually remediate so fast that they, their parents

He could read them but the motor planning and timing element was visibly stressful.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

If you need more nonsense words

I would need better evidence that his fluency is a problem (preferably with the GORT or a standardized tool) and evidence that working on non-sense words actually improves reading comprehension. It will improve decoding, but decoding doesn't solve comprehension. He has NEVER chosen to read, even when he was age 7, finishing 1st grade, and decoding multiple grades ahead (per the CTOPP) with very high reading comprehension per the DAR. There was no reason for him not to be reading then. He was ahead, ahead, ahead by all standardized tools. Even the psych said to pull his SLD label (which of course is a functional, whimsical thing in the school systems), because he was reading so astonishingly well for her. He was reading 4th grade science workbooks this year for 3rd and answering multiple choice questions. Now to GENERATE answers, that would have been harder (language disability), but just to read them and answer the questions, sure, fine, nailed. And he did that with science workbooks and social studies workbooks and reading workbooks, everything I threw at him. I even had him reading paragraphs for picture study to go with historical documents, lol. 

So yeah, when I took him in at the end of 1st and the OG-certified tutor ran the CTOPP she said she would do morphology with him, that that's where he was. But he wasn't choosing to read. So at that point, you don't look at that and go ok, it's clearly a decoding deficit, kwim? You look at that and go if the kid can decode 3-4 grade levels ahead of his age but doesn't choose to read then there's another reason. So now that he's a rising 4th, sure I could push on into whatever level, but we'd be in the same place. It's something ELSE. He reads fluently enough and proficiently enough anything I throw at him that he ought to be willing to read SOMETHING. And I mean he literally never chooses to read ANYTHING. He reads what's on the Nintendo screen. He reads for his Civ6 app (yes, you read that right, lol). But no books. He's very MOTIVATED to read his Nintendo screens. He's drawn in, and reading them gets him what he wants. That would be an autism/behavioral thing, that you only do what gets you what you want.

[ElizabethB]

9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'm back. Was the pdf you gave evidence-based? I tried to find the source on 40L but didn't look hard enough there evidently. I'm not trying to be picky, just clarifyin.g https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/?s=fluency  Elleseff is saying oral fluency of passages is a better predictor of reading comprehension than word lists. Also, I've seen some research connecting language levels and reading levels. Basically, I don't think they expect my ds to read at all above his expressive or receptive language levels. I don't totally remember what it said, call it mom brain, ugh. But what I do think would be informative is to get the new SLP we're starting with to run the GORT or another standardized tool. This would actually give us some data.

I did the 40L test myself and got different results on each section, almost implying that I was getting BETTER with each trial, which really makes sense when you think about it. So if the question is whether the person is fluent on reading non-sense words, that's what that tool would show, yes. Ds had scores correlating to his language levels, which is about what I would expect given his overall presentation of developmental delays. He spent half the list LAUGHING and struggled visibly with the unusual combinations for the motor planning. I definitely don't think it's a valid presentation of his fluency, let alone predictive of his reading comprehension.

Btw, apparently prosody is not evidence-based as being tied to comprehension either.

It's based on norms I've seen with my remedial students.  Since they almost all were taught with sight words, they have stocks of 100 - 5000 words that they read without using phonics, their reading gets better when they can read with phonics fluently, nonsense words is a great way to test that.

For someone not taught with sight words, a test with real words of similar difficulty would also work if some of the combinations are linguistically challenging.  But, the linguistically challenging words may be way reading is not yet effortless!  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Moved On said:

PeterPan, I posted about these two resources in one of your threads 

Haha, good call! That must have been what you deleted that you never saw! I'm actually not on the boards ALL the time, lol. I literally just missed them and came and saw your empty post. So you like them? They're pretty pricy but they looked like they'd be the kind of thing where almost anyone would find something useful. Are they crazy useful, somewhat useful, mildly? Like 100%. 50%. 25%..

[ElizabethB]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I would need better evidence that his fluency is a problem (preferably with the GORT or a standardized tool) and evidence that working on non-sense words actually improves reading comprehension. It will improve decoding, but decoding doesn't solve comprehension. He has NEVER chosen to read, even when he was age 7, finishing 1st grade, and decoding multiple grades ahead (per the CTOPP) with very high reading comprehension per the DAR. There was no reason for him not to be reading then. He was ahead, ahead, ahead by all standardized tools. Even the psych said to pull his SLD label (which of course is a functional, whimsical thing in the school systems), because he was reading so astonishingly well for her. He was reading 4th grade science workbooks this year for 3rd and answering multiple choice questions. Now to GENERATE answers, that would have been harder (language disability), but just to read them and answer the questions, sure, fine, nailed. And he did that with science workbooks and social studies workbooks and reading workbooks, everything I threw at him. I even had him reading paragraphs for picture study to go with historical documents, lol. 

So yeah, when I took him in at the end of 1st and the OG-certified tutor ran the CTOPP she said she would do morphology with him, that that's where he was. But he wasn't choosing to read. So at that point, you don't look at that and go ok, it's clearly a decoding deficit, kwim? You look at that and go if the kid can decode 3-4 grade levels ahead of his age but doesn't choose to read then there's another reason. So now that he's a rising 4th, sure I could push on into whatever level, but we'd be in the same place. It's something ELSE. He reads fluently enough and proficiently enough anything I throw at him that he ought to be willing to read SOMETHING. And I mean he literally never chooses to read ANYTHING. He reads what's on the Nintendo screen. He reads for his Civ6 app (yes, you read that right, lol). But no books. He's very MOTIVATED to read his Nintendo screens. He's drawn in, and reading them gets him what he wants. That would be an autism/behavioral thing, that you only do what gets you what you want.

If his comprehension is fine for oral listening, there is almost always a problem at the word reading level.

I would try my syllables program, run through it twice, and see!  It's free and it's helped all of my remedial students, the syllable level work is really helpful for them.  The last half of the program focuses on morphology and includes greek and latin level advanced phonics.  It incorporates the nonsense words and syllables, the nonsense words shouldn't take that long.

https://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

It's based on norms I've seen with my remedial students.  Since they almost all were taught with sight words, they have stocks of 100 - 5000 words that they read without using phonics, their reading gets better when they can read with phonics fluently, nonsense words is a great way to test that.

For someone not taught with sight words, a test with real words of similar difficulty would also work if some of the combinations are linguistically challenging.  But, the linguistically challenging words may be way reading is not yet effortless!  

I'm just curious here and thinking out loud. Have you ever gone back and RE-TESTED any of those students, 3-4 years later? Just curious, because I've wondered what happens to dyslexics after the intervention. My impression, just talking with people, was the reading skill remains but some of the really technical, disability-affected phonological processing skills, regress. So if you've ever re-run them several years later, after their intervention was done and they had been without practice on it, that would be interesting to see what happens. At that point you'd have students with disabilities who were reading fluently but who might have returned to low scores. I don't know, but it would be interesting. 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

If his comprehension is fine for oral listening, there is almost always a problem at the word reading level.

 

No, that was actual reading level on the DAR. And what's crazy is, he's considered to have both receptive and expressive language delays, with his expressive being much more severe. So he was reading and answering multiple questions on a standardized tool (the DAR) at a higher level than he should have been able to per his language levels.

[ElizabethB]

Just now, PeterPan said:

No, that was actual reading level on the DAR. And what's crazy is, he's considered to have both receptive and expressive language delays, with his expressive being much more severe. So he was reading and answering multiple questions on a standardized tool (the DAR) at a higher level than he should have been able to per his language levels.

With some of my students, until they get to reading at the high school level, they don't read well enough to enjoy reading.  I work to get as many of my students as possible reading at the 12th grade level.  Has he taken my 40L quick screen reading grade level test?  

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/40L Test.pdf

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

 I would try my syllables program, run through it twice, and see!

But see that's why I stopped Barton, because we were going into 5 without appropriate comprehension. He could read, but he wasn't comprehending. More work on decoding won't help that. That's why I stopped working on it, because I made the call that we needed to figure out what was causing the comprehension issues and get him more balanced. Like if you can read Frog and Toad, you should be able to *comprehend* Frog and Toad and *narrate* Frog and Toad. He wasn't doing any of that. He was reading things without any ability to retell or show comprehension. And if he has the language in front of him as multiple choice, then there's comprehension. 

I guess I'm answering my own question. It's the comprehension, always the comprehension. I've started Spelfabet with him, which I chose partly because she connects the pecs symbols for EVERYTHING, which hopefully will improve comprehension. So he's spelling a word and as he's spelling it there's a picture of the thing right above it. It's this constant check of you read it, did you understand it, over and over. And she has workbooks that go all the way through all the levels (syllables, morphology). He's already done all that. He memorized all the prefixes and suffixes for Barton in a week. 

Back later. More worksheets to do.

[ElizabethB]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm just curious here and thinking out loud. Have you ever gone back and RE-TESTED any of those students, 3-4 years later? Just curious, because I've wondered what happens to dyslexics after the intervention. My impression, just talking with people, was the reading skill remains but some of the really technical, disability-affected phonological processing skills, regress. So if you've ever re-run them several years later, after their intervention was done and they had been without practice on it, that would be interesting to see what happens. At that point you'd have students with disabilities who were reading fluently but who might have returned to low scores. I don't know, but it would be interesting. 

We have moved every 2 years on average for the last 24 years.  So, there is not really an opportunity.  But, I keep in touch with a few of their parents through Facebook and several of them still read for pleasure, and that particular 12 year old is now in college and doing well there and reads for pleasure!

[PeterPan]

I'm a goober! I have Word Callers and never got through reading it. That may explain what is bugging me on the comprehension issue.

[PeterPan]

55 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

We have moved every 2 years on average for the last 24 years.  So, there is not really an opportunity.  But, I keep in touch with a few of their parents through Facebook and several of them still read for pleasure, and that particular 12 year old is now in college and doing well there and reads for pleasure!

Well of course they still read, lol. My point was wondering how they'd do on that test 3-4 years after intervention. I'm wondering if the reading stays and the phonological processing scores drop back down.

[Kanin]

PeterPan, as far as fluency goes, it would be interesting to have your DS read some fluency passages and see how he does. You can get free fluency passages on the DIBELS website, and here is an updated fluency norms table:  http://www.readingrockets.org/article/fluency-norms-chart-2017-update

I was just on the Raz-Kids website, and it's about a hundred bucks a year. They've got fluency passages (practice and/or assessment) at every level. I find the range of books on there really helpful. There are dozens, and maybe more, books for every level. You can listen to them as audiobooks as well. I just wonder if your DS would like choosing books on there, and once you find out the level he's able to read fluently, you'd have a lot of good options.

 

[PeterPan]

Ok, I was dragging up his WIAT scores to submit for our notification. Pseudoword decoding was SS 89 but percentile 23, which is considered average. Standard deviation on the WIAT is 15. His reading comprehension, are you ready for this? SS 141, percentile 99.7. And then, just for fun, his spelling was SS 77, percentile 6, and his written expression was SS 65, percentile *1*. LOL

Crazy. 99.7%ile for reading comprehension, standard score 141 on a WIAT in March, and that was BEFORE our language work with absolutely assuredly, visibly bumped his comprehension!! Decoding of nonsense, not great, not terrible. Spelling junk, writing he wouldn't even cooperate with. So top of the line for reading for his age, does not choose to read at all. 

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Mainer said:

PeterPan, as far as fluency goes, it would be interesting to have your DS read some fluency passages and see how he does. You can get free fluency passages on the DIBELS website, and here is an updated fluency norms table:  http://www.readingrockets.org/article/fluency-norms-chart-2017-update

I was just on the Raz-Kids website, and it's about a hundred bucks a year. They've got fluency passages (practice and/or assessment) at every level. I find the range of books on there really helpful. There are dozens, and maybe more, books for every level. You can listen to them as audiobooks as well. I just wonder if your DS would like choosing books on there, and once you find out the level he's able to read fluently, you'd have a lot of good options.

 

Let me go look at it. I just need something normed, so I have clear evidence. I'll go look at your Raz-Kids too.

I haven't actually written the new SLP we see this week to bring her up to speed. I mean, it seems kind of bizarre that we know we have things to work on and yet I can't pin what I want her to work on. I want her to work on what she's strong at, that's my opinion. It doesn't work to force them into stuff they're not good at. So that's more what I was waiting to see, what the SLP's strengths would be. They may also be new at this particular practice, so I'm not sure how experienced they'll be. Could be veterans or newbies. New could be good, filled with excitement and eager to please, lol. Anyways, anything that SLP can do with stuff they already have rather than me paying another $100 is good.

[PeterPan]

19 minutes ago, Mainer said:

You can get free fluency passages on the DIBELS

Ok, so I'm looking at these, and I wanted to check, is it ok to use a passage out of grade level? Like would I start with the 1st grade and establish ok he's xyz fluency with that level and then move up? Or would I jump right up and go ok his fluency is x at 4th grade level, kwim?

I know I saw a study one of the SLPs on FB cited, and I don't know where it was, where basically they don't even expect reading comprehension above language level. So like for my ds with ASD 2 and language delays, he does not function like a 4th grader. He just doesn't. At best I'd call him a 3rd grader this year for how he functions. He's not officially grade retained on his IEP but the writing is on the wall. If we put him in the local autism school, they'd put him in a flex room that has grades above and below and allows kids to place into their appropriate maths, LA, etc. rather than being lumped. So he could go up or down for each subject and still be in with his peers, really brilliant. I was actually too sick to tour that day, but my friend went and told me about it. 

Sorry for the ramble. I'm just saying if he were hitting 3rd grade reading, actual 3rd grade reading (not on an achievement test but real life where you'd look and say yeah he read what 3rd graders read), that would be an accomplishment. So how do I administer those DIBELS lists with that? Oh and his language scores, before I did my intervention this spring/summer, were age 5 for expressive and age 8 for receptive. Chrono age 9.5. I told you, crazy spreads in his scores, lol. 

[Kanin]

Haha, hmm, those scores! Wow. I surely wouldn't score nearly that high on reading comprehension ? I guess you just have to find stuff he's really, really interested in reading! Stuff about... wars, battles? How Legos are made? Gymnastics? I dunno, what's he super duper into? 

I know what you're saying about graphic novels and how hard they can be. I was at the library recently looking for something for a dyslexic student, and I was having so much trouble finding anything. The graphic novels were all written in teeny tiny print and they were HARD! Bone is a really popular graphic novel. I also saw some that were more historical fiction about the Revolutionary War and such. Has he done Choose Your Own Adventure? There are lots of fantasy ones, but also a lot of "real" ones, like the Titanic and the Civil War and stuff. ? 

[Kanin]

Oh, just jump in and start wherever. Maybe give him a 3rd or 4th grade passage? He only has to read for one minute. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Haha, good call! That must have been what you deleted that you never saw! I'm actually not on the boards ALL the time, lol. I literally just missed them and came and saw your empty post. So you like them? They're pretty pricy but they looked like they'd be the kind of thing where almost anyone would find something useful. Are they crazy useful, somewhat useful, mildly? Like 100%. 50%. 25%..

Actually, you were online at the time mentioning the Heinemann sale (publisher of the books). You were looking at their math resources and I asked if you had seen Serravallo's two books. I did not delete them till the next day, after you had posted in other threads and I was sure you had had lots of time to see them.

One of the reasons why I don't share my resources is because many of the resources I like and find useful are pricey. For me, they are an investment; but they might not be as useful to others. Like I always say, teaching style is important, and what is useful to each of us will differ. It is why I made all my Pinterest homeschool boards private as well. Others don't know nor can determine how I use a resource from a pin, and it turned out people were monitoring my boards that I never gave my Pinterest account to. I have only ever shared it with about 4 people on this board and almost all of them don't really post here anymore. Anyway...

I'm sure you will determine a lot better whether they are useful to you when you get them from the library.

I wish you all the best,

M

[PeterPan]

See what I mean? LOL Yes, CYA books are what the IS on our IEP team recommended. I haven't tried to find them yet (see me hanging my head). I could start with an amazon search. I know I read a lot of them at this age... I was planning to have him start reading magazines like Muse this year. I think they're the right level of zing and content. He's kind of freakishly behind and smart at the same time.

So basically, if he were in your room with those scores you'd do real high value, highly motivating material, and chunk it and require it and motivate it? Any strategies or tips at all? I'd take anything, like how long the sessions would be, whether you'd stand or your head or do prizes, whether you'd hand it and say read independently and walk away, etc. 

What usually happens if I read stuff with him is that he takes over and shoves me away and reads it himself silently once it's easily within range. So like when we started on those 3rd and 4th grade science and social studies reading comprehension workbooks, at first he was scared to tell himself (seemed to me), so I alternated sentences with him to get him through the page. Once he figured out he could do that and not go crazy, he took over. Maybe it's a self-regulation hurdle?? Seriously, that's how it seemed at the time, like this exercise in can I stay calm, will I be ok, can I be here... Once he got over that hurdle the actual reading was just a nothing. The topics were highly motivating and he just did it. Now he didn't go asking for those pages, but he could just sit down and do them, page after page, no problem.

So maybe it's an emotional self-regulation thing?

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Moved On said:

One of the reasons why I don't share my resources is because many of the resources I like and find useful are pricey. For me, they are an investment; but they might not be as useful to others. Like I always say, teaching style is important, and what is useful to each of us will differ. It is why I made all my Pinterest homeschool boards private as well. Others don't know nor can determine how I use a resource from a pin, and it turned out people were monitoring my boards that I never gave my Pinterest account to. I have only ever shared it with about 4 people on this board and almost all of them don't really post here anymore. Anyway...

Yeah, pinterest is a funny thing. It's definitely a social media, sharing thing, where your boards get followed by other people. I use them as much as I can to bookmark. Unfortunately, not everything will have pics to save that way. 

Who knows what happened on the Serravallo stuff. I'm pretty nuts, lol. I've been seeing so much stuff lately, who knows. I just remember you having a post that I came back to read that had been deleted. 

Yes, the Serravallo books are $$, which is why I asked. Really though, good materials are nothing compared to the cost of therapy. Around here it's $140 an hour to be with an SLP now. That's astonishing!! So even if I drop $250 a month at Linguisystems, it's still less than I would have paid privately for 2 hours with an SLP, and we assuredly got tons more than 2 hours of benefit, mercy. So investing in good materials can be a really good move! My trouble now is I'm getting a backlog of good stuff, lol. I take things to read when I do our therapy trips, and then I SLEEP instead. 

[Lecka]

The elephant in the room for autism and comprehension is, how are open-ended questions.  How are answering questions when there is not a multiple choice answer to choose from.  How is the child at providing a respond that is not directly stated in the reading.  

These are all the main idea, retell, inferencing kinds of things.  

[Guest]

It is why I take breaks from the boards. I buy so many resources, plus I have my own (self-interest) reading that there's no way I would be able to keep up. So I have to allocate the time, usually when my boys are asleep. Luckily, I only need 6-7 hours of sleep.

Our autism funding does not cover educational materials unless we go through the schools and they do not cover therapy materials unless approved by a professional. I am very specific about the things I want for my kids, and don't have the time for long discussions, with therapists that have their own agendas, over materials. Everything we spend on is out-of-pocket. We have not used our funding and I couldn't care less. I wanted the official diagnosis for the future, in case my boys need it for university.

Pinterest is not really considered social media; at least I don't use it that way! I do not communicate with any of my followers (Never anticipated to have the number I do!) and they do not communicate with me. I don't open collaborative boards, although I have been invited to quite a few in the past and joined maybe a couple.

ETA: Sorry, forgot to quote. This is in reply to your last post, PeterPan.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

 I just remember you having a post that I came back to read that had been deleted. 

I think you are thinking of your melatonin thread ?

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Lecka said:

The elephant in the room for autism and comprehension is, how are open-ended questions.  How are answering questions when there is not a multiple choice answer to choose from.  How is the child at providing a respond that is not directly stated in the reading.  

These are all the main idea, retell, inferencing kinds of things.  

Oh absolutely!! And we've had enough conversations about that now that that's like front and center in my mind. At the time, what we were doing was really pragmatic, and obviously it worked because his scores (where the WIAT of course was also multiple choice) were good. So you're saying that's why the WIAT could be so high? Yup, makes sense, good point. And of course that's how most standardized stuff is. It's why it was so hard to get his language issues identified, because fast food tests like the CELF have so much multiple choice and modeling provided that he could just work it, even though without the models and multiple choice he was toast. Life is not multiple choice, lol.

Now a portion of what we were doing DID have open-ended questions and he was doing those too. I think everything he was doing in reading comprehension last year was at or above level, and some of it had open-ended questions. I made sure of that. Hmm, I'll have to think more. So where is this going? Because for pleasure reading we usually drop the level and don't worry so much about comprehension as just engagement. The willingness to read is considered adequate evidence that he's comprehending at some level. That's why you get this assumption that unwillingness to proceed is either lack of comprehension or lack of decoding. 

But really, if you think about that, his scores for receptive language, on the more open-ended TNL, were more like age 8. So that would be like a 2nd grade reading level for school/push work and a 1st grade level for pleasure reading. Those were open-ended questions and comprehension scores, no multiple choice, where he had to understand, make inferences, etc. All that got snuck into the TNL along with the actual narrative questions. So it was narrative comprehension and ability to make narratives, scoring in both parts. But that's pretty wild too, because you're going from age 8 when it's open-ended to SS 141 (implying function 4 grade levels probably above age grade). My dd always had terrific scores, and I don't think even she had scores that high, mercy. And her reading scores were always 4-6 grade levels above age grade. I mean, that's just a crazy spread. But I'm with you that you're seeing the IQ and this ability to get there when it's multiple choice and not when it's open-ended. So the TNL testing would be more reflective of what to expect of how he functions in life maybe. I don't know, lol. He actually functions like that, with huge spreads. 

[PeterPan]

It will take me a few days to deal with this DIBELS stuff. We're starting with our new people this week, adding SLP, OT, music therapy, and counseling. Could get wild, lol. Might be great or might leave me whacking my head.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Lecka said:

The elephant in the room for autism and comprehension is, how are open-ended questions.  How are answering questions when there is not a multiple choice answer to choose from.  How is the child at providing a respond that is not directly stated in the reading.  

These are all the main idea, retell, inferencing kinds of things.  

Yes, correct. Many kids on the spectrum can easily figure out factual information from the text with multiple choice questions.

I dig deep, even with Bible stories. Today we were discussing Adam and Eve, their sin, the meaning of the snake, Jesus... It was time for me to go beyond the literal meanings with my 9-year-old. He got more than I anticipated out of the discussion! But, I do Socratic with them. Always have! I use the multitude of resources I buy, as tools.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[Storygirl]

I have only read the OP before responding. I will go back and read the rest of the conversation. But I thought I'd mention that DS14 will not read of his own accord. He just won't. He does have some things he likes to look at from time to time -- Garfield comics come to mind -- but he has never read a chapter book from beginning to end of his own volition, only when assigned.

There are a couple of books that he has liked, that he has kept on a bookshelf in his room and occasionally paged through. It's possible that he has read them through on his own at night, in his room. But I doubt it. And they are at a third grade level, so well below his age level.

We are not homeschooling any more, but for the summer, I assign 20 minutes of reading per day, and I have chosen the books for him (I let him choose from a stack I selected). If I let him choose, he would only pick Garfield, and, while I am not against comics for him, I do want him to widen his exposure. I would rather he do much more than 20 minutes, but I have to set a goal that is actually achievable here.

This summer has been busy for us, so we have had days where I did not set the timer and make my kids read (all of the kids have to do it in my home; not just DS), so we haven't even managed 20 minutes per day consistently, but that was our goal.

DS always objects to reading time. He would absolutely not do it if not required. It makes me sad, because I am an avid reader myself and have college degrees in literature. I've had to set that aside and just treat reading as a requirement for him, without the expectation that he will ever enjoy it.

 

Sorry, can't get rid of the odd quote box.

Quote

'

 

[Storygirl]

13 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And how about the other dark dirty secret I'm realizing I should ask: HOW LONG did you do that stage? Because, seriously, maybe my vision for the how long is too short. Maybe I thought 1-2 months and maybe it's more like 1-2 years or something, I don't know. 

Probably obvious from my previous post, but the stage of compelled reading for DS is never ending. I don't think he will ever choose to read something unless it is required.

It makes sense that he wouldn't want to, given his comprehension issues.

I think you can work on improving all aspects of reading over time, obviously. But it may not be reasonable to expect that some day your son will choose to read. Don't get me wrong -- I hope he does!! But it's possible that he won't. So "choosing to read" perhaps can be less of a goal than "has learned the skill of reading to such an extent that he is able to read with comprehension when reading is needed to accomplish something."

That sounds like a half-hearted and depressing goal. But in our home, it is realistic. Making sure DS CAN read is one thing. Ensuring that he will WANT to.....can't guarantee that.

[Storygirl]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I was dragging up his WIAT scores to submit for our notification. Pseudoword decoding was SS 89 but percentile 23, which is considered average. Standard deviation on the WIAT is 15. His reading comprehension, are you ready for this? SS 141, percentile 99.7. And then, just for fun, his spelling was SS 77, percentile 6, and his written expression was SS 65, percentile *1*. LOL

Crazy. 99.7%ile for reading comprehension, standard score 141 on a WIAT in March, and that was BEFORE our language work with absolutely assuredly, visibly bumped his comprehension!! Decoding of nonsense, not great, not terrible. Spelling junk, writing he wouldn't even cooperate with. So top of the line for reading for his age, does not choose to read at all. 

DS also passed whatever comprehension test the school psych administered when he has his IEP testing. I have not seen the test myself, but the psych said that it included an auditory component. The teacher asked what the psych did to test for comprehension when he was reading silently, and the answer was that it was not the way those tests worked.

So DS could pass the test, but when it comes to reading a book or an article or an essay, he does not comprehend it enough.

I really don't know what the WIAT involves, but if it had an auditory component, it may have boosted your son's score, especially since he listens to so many audio books.

Also, DS can do pretty well on standardized testing where the comprehension being tested concerns the details from the article or passage. He can remember what someone did, etc. He can do explicit comprehension multiple choice testing without too much trouble. BUT he can't get the inference. At all. And as reading level increases, inference in texts increases substantially. The overall meaning, theme, connections that make the story come alive.... he doesn't get it.

But because he can do the explicit comprehension questions, he gains a higher score that does not accurately reflect his real difficulty with the texts.

I have decided this explains the discrepancy between DS's testing and his true functional comprehension, as my best guess.

DS's IEP targets inference as his comprehension goal now.

There is more wrapped up in the package of "why DS does not like reading and can't comprehend". He doesn't visualize. He lacks background knowledge. Etc. But those things are connected to the inference for him. They are all of the unstated things he needs to be able to discern when reading, that he does not discern.

[PeterPan]

Just jumping to the end here before I go back and see the fresh posts, hehe. Came across this https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/response-2-to-dra-question  Mindwings/SGM is having a back to school sale (18% off), so I was trying to decide if I'd buy Core of the Core. Came across this blog post with a graphic where they actually say what I'm finally realizing. Like it all kind of sounds like gibberish, but if you look at their pyramid of reading comprehension, it builds from bottom up:

phonology--the decoding piece

semantics--that's the vocabulary, synonyms, attributes/categories/functions, etc.

syntax--that's grammar, sentence structure

discourse--THAT is where the oral/written expression and reading comprehension comes in.

The pyramid is flipped, with the big goals of discourse and output at the top and those foundational things at the bottom. So that's why we couldn't go to output. I knew that for writing, but I hadn't really quite caught on that they (the world of research, SLPs, whatever) were acknowledging that about reading. It even makes sense when you think about it, that you understand at the word level, then the sentence level, THEN the paragraph level.

So maybe part of his pushback is that his comprehension isn't there at the syntactic level?? It would make sense. When I put "syntax" into Linguisystems, the stuff that pops up is the grammar stuff we're doing now. Like we're doing it, but it's challenging enough for him that I'm having to intersperse a lot of other stuff. Maybe he needs more time to grow? His behaviorist says not to rush, to work intensively but then give stuff time to gel and kind of sift around in his mind and get processed. She likes us to take breaks. Like work intensely, but then take breaks from it. So that's why I was like ok, if the grammar stuff is hard, we'll take a walk over to the Spelfabet and do that and do some of these other easier workbooks. I got a series on something with reasoning (100% Language Primary, I don't know) and they aren't too hard. Those to me are more like applying what we've already done rather than charging forward. The grammar stuff (syntax on the SGM/MW chart) is moving forward, not treading water. 

And there may be a convergence in a way, now that I think about it. Like Moreau was saying it when I talked with her, but maybe I didn't get it. Maybe I still don't get it. To do the 4th grade open-ended reading comprehension and the 4th grade open-ended writing, you have to have the 4th grade open-ended language skills. The semantics and syntax have to be there at that level. And when the language level is held back, the ability to do analysis and have discourse is going to be held back too. So his language level age-wise matches the analysis you expect for that age. They pair. So like when I look at the expository lists, the earliest ones (description, list, sequence) fit his language level. I thought they only fit because they matched his narrative level, but that's not it. They literally fit what he has the LANGUAGE to do. He doesn't have the LANGUAGE to do the more complex components of expository, and I can't just push, vavoom, and make that level of language magically happen. I've been working on it, but there are some developmental walls there for how fast it's going to go. 

I think some treading water, reading more language at about his language level, could solidify his language comprehension and allow him to be ready to go forward. We've gone so quickly that he hasn't had a chance to READ at his language level, to take it in, to see what it looks like to use language beautifully at his language level. Like to me, I'd rather he were able to write beautiful descriptions at his language level, than to go forward and have clausals and grammar out the wazoo and just kick out crap and tripe and dry drivel. There's a lot of breadth to be had by expanding at this level. And really, I've tried going forward. We might get more, but I'm not sure how much more. We may be hitting on development.

So then that's interesting to ponder, what does good writing look like at his current language level? How can we translate his current language level (which I can only guess as I don't have fresh data on) into good pleasure reading and good push reading? That, it seems to me, is where his best comprehension would be. And by controlling it to language level and making it FINE writing, it would probably be enjoyable to him. He actually enjoys all kinds of things. He'll read poetry and science and history and anything real. He's pretty game and willing. So maybe I was onto something with that idea of science magazines, because there they're aiming at the LANGUAGE level of the target, not the decoding level. Decoding would be fine too, but it's the language level I need to be looking for. 

I don't know, just talking out loud there. It's midnight and I get these crazy ideas and then get bleary, lol.

[Storygirl]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

See what I mean? LOL Yes, CYA books are what the IS on our IEP team recommended. I haven't tried to find them yet (see me hanging my head). I could start with an amazon search. I know I read a lot of them at this age... I was planning to have him start reading magazines like Muse this year. I think they're the right level of zing and content. He's kind of freakishly behind and smart at the same time.

So basically, if he were in your room with those scores you'd do real high value, highly motivating material, and chunk it and require it and motivate it? Any strategies or tips at all? I'd take anything, like how long the sessions would be, whether you'd stand or your head or do prizes, whether you'd hand it and say read independently and walk away, etc. 

What usually happens if I read stuff with him is that he takes over and shoves me away and reads it himself silently once it's easily within range. So like when we started on those 3rd and 4th grade science and social studies reading comprehension workbooks, at first he was scared to tell himself (seemed to me), so I alternated sentences with him to get him through the page. Once he figured out he could do that and not go crazy, he took over. Maybe it's a self-regulation hurdle?? Seriously, that's how it seemed at the time, like this exercise in can I stay calm, will I be ok, can I be here... Once he got over that hurdle the actual reading was just a nothing. The topics were highly motivating and he just did it. Now he didn't go asking for those pages, but he could just sit down and do them, page after page, no problem.

So maybe it's an emotional self-regulation thing?

I have to go to sleep now, but I will try to post about what it looks like when I work with DS on his reading. Not as a model for anyone to follow, but because it might spark some ideas for you or let you see what it looks like for one kid.

Have you read Strategies That Work? I found a couple of helpful reading comprehension books, but that was probably my favorite.

[PeterPan]

42 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I have only read the OP before responding. I will go back and read the rest of the conversation. But I thought I'd mention that DS14 will not read of his own accord. He just won't. He does have some things he likes to look at from time to time -- Garfield comics come to mind -- but he has never read a chapter book from beginning to end of his own volition, only when assigned.

There are a couple of books that he has liked, that he has kept on a bookshelf in his room and occasionally paged through. It's possible that he has read them through on his own at night, in his room. But I doubt it. And they are at a third grade level, so well below his age level.

We are not homeschooling any more, but for the summer, I assign 20 minutes of reading per day, and I have chosen the books for him (I let him choose from a stack I selected). If I let him choose, he would only pick Garfield, and, while I am not against comics for him, I do want him to widen his exposure. I would rather he do much more than 20 minutes, but I have to set a goal that is actually achievable here.

This summer has been busy for us, so we have had days where I did not set the timer and make my kids read (all of the kids have to do it in my home; not just DS), so we haven't even managed 20 minutes per day consistently, but that was our goal.

DS always objects to reading time. He would absolutely not do it if not required. It makes me sad, because I am an avid reader myself and have college degrees in literature. I've had to set that aside and just treat reading as a requirement for him, without the expectation that he will ever enjoy it.

 

Sorry, can't get rid of the odd quote box.

 

Thank you for sharing all that. Makes me not feel so alone. It almost sounds like you're saying treating it as behavioral doesn't make a difference either. That's what I've wondered. My gut hasn't said it was behavioral, that's for sure. I actually bought ds comics, scads of comics, this really amazing Peanuts for young readers set that has larger print, everything. Nope, even that he barely touched. Now that was months ago, like back before our language testing and our big language intervention. Maybe he would now? And it's pretty telling when you're saying in reality 3rd grade is about it for your ds, and that's maybe where his language is? I don't know. 

Well it's pretty obvious I've got to do better at this syntax level thing. We kicked butt with semantics 101, but we've still got syntax 101 and semantics 201. I thought he was ready for the semantics 201 level stuff, but it seems to muffle him a bit. That's another reason why we walked over to the Spelfabet, etc. Trial and error, mainly error, mercy. The syntax stuff though, like these grammar workbooks, is kind of artificial. I don't know if it will actually work. I know the semantics stuff worked, but this stuff I'm not so sure about. Maybe we should play the games book more. I got it and it was so hard we put it aside. He might be killer ready for it now. Might lighten things up, because it was easier than grammar worksheets. Some of the grammar worksheets are pretty interesting too. Maybe I should just do the most thoughtful plus the games then come BACK around and do the Spotlight books and the more analytical/dreary stuff. 

I mean, if that pyramid is right, then getting through the syntax should unlock the paragraph level comprehension. That's what that should mean, in theory. And our SLP just keeps saying back up, whatever you want, back up more than you thought you'd need to. That's what she said, sigh.

[PeterPan]

44 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Probably obvious from my previous post, but the stage of compelled reading for DS is never ending. I don't think he will ever choose to read something unless it is required.

It makes sense that he wouldn't want to, given his comprehension issues.

I think you can work on improving all aspects of reading over time, obviously. But it may not be reasonable to expect that some day your son will choose to read. Don't get me wrong -- I hope he does!! But it's possible that he won't. So "choosing to read" perhaps can be less of a goal than "has learned the skill of reading to such an extent that he is able to read with comprehension when reading is needed to accomplish something."

That sounds like a half-hearted and depressing goal. But in our home, it is realistic. Making sure DS CAN read is one thing. Ensuring that he will WANT to.....can't guarantee that.

Ok, I'm taking a deep breath here and rolling with you. And you know what's so whack? Ds WILL listen to the books on audio. What I haven't done is actually get him onto a progression where he's moving through what he would have typically read for 2nd or 3rd or 4th. That's what I really need to do next. I was looking at all the books dd read in elementary and realizing I need to get aggressive about that, making lists and just saying here goes.

I guess what gets me is that he doesn't even care. That's what is so weird. He'll listen to audiobooks when I offer them and facilitate, but he doesn't have this relationship with books where he wants them and wants to be able to read them. 

Well thanks for setting me straight on how this could be rolling. I may just need to let the guilt goes. His body and brain is going to do what it's going to do. I'll do what I can, but it will be what it will be.

[Terabith]

My kid comprehends at a much higher level than she decodes, but decoding is age appropriate, and comprehension is adult level.  She likes to listen to books.  She likes to read, too, but she doesn't choose to read until she's kind of out of other stuff to do.  Throw her in a situation with a moderately engaging book and no other entertainment option and she'll do it.  But if there's another alternative, especially a technologically involved one, she's going to choose that one.  

[PeterPan]

15 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Have you read Strategies That Work? I found a couple of helpful reading comprehension books, but that was probably my favorite.

I think I may have gotten that one. Yup, mine is the 2007 edition. I think sometimes I'm not very brilliant at mining gems from things, because people are like oh that book was AWESOME and I get it and don't have any moments, lol.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My kid comprehends at a much higher level than she decodes, but decoding is age appropriate, and comprehension is adult level.  She likes to listen to books.  She likes to read, too, but she doesn't choose to read until she's kind of out of other stuff to do.  Throw her in a situation with a moderately engaging book and no other entertainment option and she'll do it.  But if there's another alternative, especially a technologically involved one, she's going to choose that one.  

Oh now THAT'S interesting. Cuz you're right, ds leads a pretty interesting life. So something like trapped in a car driving to therapy and the ONLY option is the (carefully chosen, very engaging, on the right language and decoding level) book in front of you... That could actually work. We'd probably get more done that way than trying to have compelled reading in our house. We'll be able to do some, but the car or other desert locations could be very effective, a game changer. I've got to think about that, because that's something to nail pronto. We're starting new therapies (and driving and trips and trips and trips) this week, so it's timely.

[Terabith]

Yeah.  We have to be careful about reading in the car because of car sickness.  But when she's in school, she typically reads a novel a week or so.  Sometimes more often than that.  And if it's a REALLY easy book, something super engaging, she might read it at home with nothing else going on.  Dog Diaries or something.  She rereads the stupid Warriors books over and over again, but she also reads other stuff, too.  She doesn't stim, and  I've often thought that with the decoding being at such a lower level than comprehension, that she genuinely might be getting new stuff each time she reads them.  And I like to reread books, too.  It's just a personality, old favorite, comfortable thing.  I could compel reading, I guess, but I just don't really feel good about it, especially since she does read so much during the school year.   If we were homeschooling still, I guess I might.  But it's just sneakier somehow to make it so there's just nothing else more engaging.  She does seek out stories on her own, however.  Podcasts, audiobooks, people reading aloud to her.  She loves stories, and I think she is by nature more auditory than visual.  And I've had pretty good luck handing her a book I thought she would like in a waiting room, and then she chooses to continue it in a less constrained environment.  But my kid is a lot easier than yours.  

[PeterPan]

Oh foo, I forgot we're waiting for his new glasses! Well I'll wait on the car reading till they come in. He's been having headaches and we don't want that. But I can subtly set him up by having him be bored on these new trips. That way he never has the tech for them. 

Has anybody taught their kids who to follow along with audiobooks or do the immersion reading? We tried YEARS ago and haven't tried since. It seemed at the time like the audio went really fast for him. He's a faster reader now, and the glasses should help. Maybe he'd be fine? Maybe we could work on immersion reading during school time, because that's a bit easier to compel, and then save book reading for desert situations like the car... But then it gets weird, because I have scads of audiobooks and don't really have any (except maybe a stray Magic Treehouse here or there) that would be appropriate for immersion reading.

We could also do the High Noon reading and make it compelled/required for a significant chunk a day. That could work too. I don't know, just thinking out loud there. I hadn't thought through the categories of possible reading. 

[Terabith]

No.  I thought about teaching her to follow along, but I tried it myself, and I HATED doing it personally.  I love reading, and I love listening, but doing the two together?  The speed just isn't right.  So I figured that if it was something I wasn't willing to do myself, I shouldn't try to compel my kid.  I did do specific fluency work with both kids when they were about second grade age where I would read a passage and then have them read it aloud twice.  Started after we did a Time 4 Learning trial with my oldest on the second grade language arts, and that approach to fluency work really helped her.  It was a useful exercise.  Actually, the Time 4 Learning second grade language arts was really, really good.  Didn't like their other levels nearly as much, but their second grade stuff was good review.  He's probably beyond that, though.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Dog Diaries or something.  She rereads the stupid...

My dd did a lot of re-reading too! I think it's a good thing. She tended to alternate potato chip and meaty reading. Sometimes it drove me crazy, and I would go box up all the comics and junk and take it to the basement, where she'd promptly sneak it back out. 

Well cool, I'm glad we're talking through all this, because I'm getting some workable things to tackle.

1-Keep going with decoding work, including non-sense, syllables, etc.

2-Keep going with syntax/grammar, as it may pay off.

3-Create tech deserts to make reading more enticing.

4-Do immersion reading or high interest decodable reading for our paired reading time.

5-Continue work on comprehension strategies for inferences, plot, character development, etc., which could mean beginning the Spotlight on Reading series which I don't think we've done yet. Nope, we've done none of the Spotlight on Reading books, don't know why not.

That's at least 5 big picture things that could help.