Stuff on teaching reading

[Storygirl]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

That's a little side rant we could go into lol. Like if you look at me as an adult I read almost exclusively nonfiction. I'm guessing the fiction advocates will say it's super valuable for the social and then it becomes obvious some people still don't care. You're really opening the bigger can of worms about what it would mean and look like for him to be a lifelong reader and I honestly haven't thought that far. I can try. Any thoughts? It sounds like you're in the can read what needs to read. We were hoping for reading as leisure but you're right we haven't pondered the WHAT.

I am sure that my son will not choose to read for leisure as a teen or adult. I have no reason to believe he will, when he has never done so before now. But he is a teen, and your son is younger, so he may develop some habits that my son has not been able to. DS will listen to an audio book when assigned but never for fun.

I was thinking this morning about what adult reading might look like for someone who doesn't connect emotionally with characters and who can't understand inference, and it's hard. I think for DS it would have to be a straightforward, plot-driven book with kind of stock characters, where character development is not a key element. No flashbacks and little imagery. Just action. Some popular fiction could fit this description.

But I don't think he would pick it up to read it, any way.

He does like adult movies now, like Avengers, Mission Impossible, etc, but I have to sit next to him and whisper clues, "That is the same person, but he is wearing a disguise now." "This scene is the same character, but in the past as a child." Or "He's saying that to make the other person look like the bad guy, but he's lying." Etc.

Will he be able to do this for himself as an adult? I don't know.

[Lecka]

As far as prosody, ime, there are two basic approaches.  (Edit:  as far as prosody as part of reading fluency.)

One is, just provide a fluent model and the kid will pick it up.  Have them copy a fluent model, provide a fluent model, etc.

And then the second is breaking it down into punctuation, rate, phrasing, and expression.  

Ime, if you need the second, you need the second.  

My son (my older son) basically spoke with good prosody.  He did have trouble with his speech rate though (cluttering).  

With reading aloud he spoke in a monotone, ignored punctuation, his phrasing (pauses) happened when he needed to take a breath, and he could not read dialogue with appropriate expression.  

There is stuff out there for working on all of that.  It is in “reading fluency” stuff.

My older son never had prosody identified as far as speech therapy (he had articulation, phonological processes, and cluttering identified as far as speech therapy).  

Edit:  as far as comprehension, my older son overall always had good listening comprehension.  He just did.  

He had a lot of trouble following along with dialogue and following along with who was talking.  He had that with listening and then he had it with reading.

He has missed some social inferences.  He misses some social inferences in person.  It is maddening and makes his life more difficult and frustrating.  I hope/think that he is doing better than he would be without any input in this area.  He has had a lot of input between reading fiction, talking, social thinking, etc.  

Edited August 13, 2018 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

It’s huge here for my son to be able to enjoy more movies.  I used to have to take him somewhere, because he would be bored and disruptive whenever we (aka everyone else) wanted to watch a movie together.  

It is so much easier with him *also* engaged in the movie.  

 

He does watch movies now (he didn't use to), but I could see where it could plateau if we don't keep his comprehension moving forward.

[Guest]

Sorry, my time is limited and I have been back-and-forth reading and posting. This will probably be my last post. I don't have time to quote but this is in support of a lot of what ElizabethB has said. 

https://www.ldatschool.ca/teaching-the-brain-to-read-strategies-for-enhancing-reading-decoding-fluency-and-comprehension/

I didn't have time last night and was not happy with the wording of one of my posts. It did not convey adequately what I was trying to say so I deleted it. Decoding and fluency are important but a child with ASD can have more going on and require more specialized attention on comprehension. A child with ASD and language delays can have an additional issue with expression. It was why I did as much research as I did on procedural memory. For kids with language delays syntax is one of the things affected when there are issues with procedural memory. So the child can have thoughts and know what he wants to say but have the challenge of constructing the sentence to convey that. This is what I have put heavy emphasis on with my 9-year-old and what improved output, including written output.

I am a firm believer that you can work areas of weakness simultaneously. I tackle things together and separately. I use resources and pull in ideas from other resources so that we can get more out of it than just working one area and dropping the rest for lack of time.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

I am sure that my son will not choose to read for leisure as a teen or adult. I have no reason to believe he will, when he has never done so before now. But he is a teen, and your son is younger, so he may develop some habits that my son has not been able to. DS will listen to an audio book when assigned but never for fun.

I was thinking this morning about what adult reading might look like for someone who doesn't connect emotionally with characters and who can't understand inference, and it's hard. I think for DS it would have to be a straightforward, plot-driven book with kind of stock characters, where character development is not a key element. No flashbacks and little imagery. Just action. Some popular fiction could fit this description.

But I don't think he would pick it up to read it, any way.

He does like adult movies now, like Avengers, Mission Impossible, etc, but I have to sit next to him and whisper clues, "That is the same person, but he is wearing a disguise now." "This scene is the same character, but in the past as a child." Or "He's saying that to make the other person look like the bad guy, but he's lying." Etc.

Will he be able to do this for himself as an adult? I don't know.

Yeah, that's pretty significant disability. He's at that peekaboo level of perspective taking and theory of mind. Like probably the Practical Theory of Mind Games book from Linguisystems would be right on his level if you could get someone to do it with him. And you're right, it makes sense why he's not reading. It's just not a tool to connect him with what he's asking.

[Guest]

We are not really magazine people but my kids have both liked this annual National Geographic Almanac:

https://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Kids-Almanac-Almanacs/dp/1426330138/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1534193116&sr=1-1&keywords=national+geographic+almanac+2019

The youngest has claimed the copies my oldest had as his own.

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[PeterPan]

Looking through some old posts on FB and found the SLPs saying that fluency should be measured at independent reading level and then you work toward instructional reading level.

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, Moved On said:

We are not really magazine people but my kids have both liked this annual National Geographic Almanac:

https://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Kids-Almanac-Almanacs/dp/1426330138/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1534193116&sr=1-1&keywords=national+geographic+almanac+2019

The youngest has claimed the copies my oldest had as his own.

 

Ooo, I like that!! :D

[Storygirl]

My son has poor prosody. He won't pause for punctuation, won't read with expression, and so on. It definitely is a piece of the comprehension puzzle for him.

[PeterPan]

This is a helpful breakdown of what all those different categories of things we've been discussing look like and present like in students, what they'll be saying or what we as the teachers will be saying. There's a pdf and it's meant to help IEP teams "target the problem" hence the title. 

http://www.readingrockets.org/helping/target

For instance, it says that subvocalizing is an indicator of fluency issues, one way they show up. If you just ask me is he fluent, he seems fluent overall, depending on the reading level, his engagement, etc. But once you get more concrete and go through their list, I can find things. So the pdf chart is handy. I think probably for us we're going to have multiple categories to hit sigh.

Edited August 13, 2018 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

I just glanced at that Target the Problem link, and I think it looks like it could be really helpful.

 

[Storygirl]

I probably sound pessimistic when writing about my son and reading. For example, saying that I don't think he will ever read for leisure. But it's not pessimism or bitterness or anything. Just being realistic.

I think DS's comprehension disability is severe, and I think there is a lot of opportunity for improvement and intervention for many. I don't want anyone to read my posts and feel that I think things are hopeless. There are many things that people can try.

I think this point may have been made in Strategies that Work, but it may have been in another book I read -- one of the really challenging aspects of comprehension difficulties is that the student has to learn to use the strategies and tools for him- or herself. Just doing it when directed by a teacher or parent is not enough. They have to apply what they have learned. That book, by the way, has a bunch of techniques and strategies that can be taught.

But it's like my daughter who has dyslexia. She has learned the OG methods, but she now has to actually use them when she is writing. It makes writing more cumbersome for her, but she can do it.

There are reading comprehension techniques that can be taught, but the student has to use them, and reading may remain more cumbersome than for typical students.

 

[PeterPan]

Story you had mentioned his comprehension issues before but I never connected what they looked like in school to real life. I really appreciate your candor.

I had heard voices in the past (not people here now) saying they waited, they did xyz, and it just happened eventually. It's a nice thought but apparently not ds' path or necessarily others'. And although I keep picking up the clue phone with the next area to work on, it keeps ringing with more. It's like a pit where you pull off leaves and think you're to the bottom and it keeps going deeper and deeper.

So yeah in a way it is hopeless. But we'll reframe it and redefine what a good outcome is and work to get there. 

[Storygirl]

DS is entering 8th grade, so I'm thinking ahead now to what real life will be like for him, and what help he needs during the next five years to get him to the most functional place.

So I don't have a lot of interest in trying to get him to be able to read The Scarlet Letter or Shakespeare, as most high school students do. That's not my goal, and if it were my goal, I don't think he could achieve it meaningfully.

I'd loooooooove for him to read for pleasure!!! There is no one who would want that more! I have a degree in English literature and a master's degree in children's literature, and my jobs were always in bookstores, libraries, and publishing.

Books are my personal love.

But for DS, I'd like him to be able to feel successful at school and not just feel that school and reading are hard. I want him to be able to read texts well enough to complete his school work. And, when he is out of school, I'd like him to be able to read a magazine article about his areas of interest, or a newspaper or online account of current events. If he has children, I would like him to be able to read to them with inflection and meaning. I hope he can watch a movie and understand it better than he does now.

I want him to be able to be successful in his sphere of life. If he does not enjoy reading and will not do it after graduation, I accept that. But in the meantime, I want him to be exposed to good books in school and at home, and so we soldier on. Once he is an adult, if he chooses not to read, I will be content with that.

[Guest]

Lecka spoke about prosody. I call it more specifically, inflection. Very important for comprehension, also! Again, youngest (better at modeling) has put more emphasis on inflection and tries to read well, often also giving voices to characters. Oldest I have had to work more with on this.

It makes me think of the ambiguous predictions from the Oracle's in Ancient Greece. I remember this one from middle school, one my most beloved teacher put lots of emphasis on to show us how words could be misinterpreted. 

"Go, return not die in war"

There's a missing comma here, which you would not have in spoken language (incidentally I was talking about this with my 9-year-old during out Bible reading this morning).

Look at how the meaning changes when this is not read with the correct inflection.

"Go, return, not die in war"

"Go, return not, die in war"

Things like this fascinated me as a kid! Funny thing, oldest has been the one that has liked word games and puzzles, LOL. So much to sift through and figure out with each child!

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

Storygirl, did you check out the two books that PeterPan linked in her first post? The two from Serravallo? Pricey but excellent resources! Take a look at the previews and see if they might be helpful for your son. You may find them at your library like PeterPan did.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[Ausmumof3]

Haven’t read the whole thread but this year my 4th grader has finally taken off with reading for pleasure.  

To address to motivation thing what I’ve done with each of my kids is basically bribed them to read.  For every ten books they get a prize and there is also a premiers reading challenge here where they get a medal for reading a certain number of books.  

I was worried the bribery would be counterproductive but it wasn’t.  They started reading for the rewards and ended up reading because they were hooked!

also loads of read alouds help which it sounds like you also have covered off.  Also reading is the only allowed activity after bedtime.

all that said we don’t have major learning challenges I don’t think.  The fourth grader showed some signs of dyslexia but ultimately everything is improving dramatically this year.  She still misses occasional small words when reading aloud but that’s because the predictive text feature in her brain is going too fast I think.

so basically we address motivation with a reward system, modelling that books are a pleasurable and enjoyable experience, and a quiet time when the options are read or sleep.

If you haven’t already checked it out, Read Aloud Revival has soo many good ideas for reluctant readers.

[Ausmumof3]

Eta reading back through the thread my reply probably seems overly simplistic for all you have going on but I’m still going to leave it up just in case anything is helpful.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

But for DS, I'd like him to be able to feel successful at school and not just feel that school and reading are hard. I want him to be able to read texts well enough to complete his school work. And, when he is out of school, I'd like him to be able to read a magazine article about his areas of interest, or a newspaper or online account of current events. If he has children, I would like him to be able to read to them with inflection and meaning. I hope he can watch a movie and understand it better than he does now.

I think this is a really good list! On the school stuff, we just customize till it fits, which doesn't really help with regular school that is driven by texts, etc., sigh. I love your addition of news/current events. I think magazine articles in areas of interest are good. I think ds might enjoy reading things that are humorous, since he really likes humor. I agree on the movies, yes.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

If you haven’t already checked it out, Read Aloud Revival has soo many good ideas for reluctant readers.

Thanks, that looks good, lots of good stuff to dig in on there. I particularly like her idea of the author interviews. We could just look on youtube to find those probably and do them on our own as a way of increasing engagement. Our library had a book on the art in children's books where they profiled each artist and gave you a sample project. All these great ideas you never get done, lol.

[Storygirl]

3 hours ago, Moved On said:

Storygirl, did you check out the two books that PeterPan linked in her first post? The two from Serravallo? Pricey but excellent resources! Take a look at the previews and see if they might be helpful for your son. You may find them at your library like PeterPan did.

I haven't seen those books in person, but the reviews look good! Thanks for the reminder to check them out!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

also a premiers reading challenge here where they get a medal for reading a certain number of books.  

We have this here as well. 15 minutes a day for I can't remember how many days (summer reading). My oldest always read over an hour at the time. But, it just got too repetitive after a few years so we stopped. 

[Guest]

With my oldest we always picked books together, or I picked knowing what he likes (and the majority of picks he claims have been good to really good), or areas I wanted to ensure he focuses on. He needs reminders, not really motivators. His issue is more the need for better time management and planning; more the ADHD than the Asperger's in this case.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Guest

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

It take some searching to find the hooks...don't give up, keep asking for recommendations.  Once they clik, they'll be back.

Have you considered Reader's Theatre, and Drama?  RT can help a student think deeply about character clues, then that steamrolls into other investigative observations and deductive reasoning. Drama - live plays or old fashion radio stories for children can help with visualization and deciphering the emotion.  And the live plays also help the new reader realize that the set and the scenes are chosen for a reason.  If you keep attending what is available in the area, it will add up  over the years. 

He hasn't had the behavior for it, but it's a good idea, yeah.

[PeterPan]

We did rewards for reading, I forgot. I think I gave him $1 a book something. He earned spending money for a trip, and I think it was pretty generous considering they were little F&P books, lol. 

Our library has some of those Branches books, but they're a lot like the F&P books we already did, at least at the Boris level Mainer mentioned. Those are pictures with single sentences, and he had moved up to full pages with occasional pictures. It's just the stories were so crummy he wouldn't continue. I think the High Noon books might be the logical successors.

[Kanin]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

We did rewards for reading, I forgot. I think I gave him $1 a book something. He earned spending money for a trip, and I think it was pretty generous considering they were little F&P books, lol. 

Our library has some of those Branches books, but they're a lot like the F&P books we already did, at least at the Boris level Mainer mentioned. Those are pictures with single sentences, and he had moved up to full pages with occasional pictures. It's just the stories were so crummy he wouldn't continue. I think the High Noon books might be the logical successors.

That's why I'm a fan of Branches - even though there's not a lot of text, the stories are entertaining. I haven't seen any of the High Noon stuff beyond the CVC readers, but they have a lot of cool new stuff these days for 2nd-3rd grade decoding. They also have a lot of non-fiction which I've never seen, but which looks good on the website.

[Kanin]

15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Looking through some old posts on FB and found the SLPs saying that fluency should be measured at independent reading level and then you work toward instructional reading level.

Yup, that's right. Although, many kids can read fluently WAY beyond what they can comprehend, so at a certain point, you have to make them read "easy" books, but ones they can understand. I had to give one of my students books that were waaaaaay easier than her "reading level," and she was kinda aggravated, but her comprehension really improved because she started at an appropriate level. Luckily her mom was on board - many parents balk at reading "easy" books.

[PeterPan]

Well I decided to order this set The Next Step Forward in Guided Reading book + The Guided Reading Teacher's Companion because it seems to parallel what Lecka is describing and has a framework for teaching summarizing that I think is sensible. (just looking at the toc) So the approach seems to be called Guided Reading. The actual decoding instruction seems like typical ps stuff (bunk, absent, focusing on word walls, etc. instead), but the comprehension work is pretty practical. And here's Jan Richardson's site with a slew of downloadable files to go with skills. http://www.janrichardsonguidedreading.com/resources-1 She's got printable bookmarks, task cards, etc. for retelling, inferencing, compare/contrast, etc. I like how practical they look. Using your 5 fingers to drive a retell, that really works. Her newest book is The Next Step Forward in Reading Intervention: The RISE Framework and I went ahead and ordered that just to go all the way in wrapping my brain around the methodology, lol. I think probably it's going to bring good help with comprehension, or at least that's my hope. Since they aren't teaching OG and are saying they're getting jumps, comprehension must be what they're working on. 

That's the HUGE knock on OG that these literacy specialist SLPs are making. Apparently this issue of reading without comprehension is common.

I didn't get to work through Word Callers: Small-Group and One-to-One Interventions for Children Who "Read" but Don't Comprehend (Research-Informed Classroom) yesterday but I did flip through it this morning. Starting at chapter 3 it gets pretty practical, so I may just open the book and do what it says and wrap my brain around it as we go. Some of it is stuff we already know (that kids with comprehension issues have language issues), some is putting it into the context of reading and how they connect the language to the orthography in their brains, and some of it is so languagey (multiple meanings, jokes, homonyms, categories, etc.) that really it's better that we did that work overtly with SLP materials. Now that we've done the SLP materials, we could go through her steps and probably get some traction and take it to the next level of applying it to reading. But just to have hit those areas before, well we wouldn't have gotten far; it's definitely not a replacement for SLP work. For Storygirl, the book has a chapter (7) on improving inferences, but it's sorta brief. Her take seems to be find clue words, ask questions, make predictions, and hope the student turns on their brain. Hmm. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

Old Time Radio won't require behavior around others....maybe Lassie would be suitable and could be done in the car or at quiet time once he's been introduced to the format.  

RT doesn't start as large  group; the intro would be just you two.  You could also put on a show, at this age a folk tale may work well. The process of writing the show, deciding on the costumes (people or stick puppet), the set all apply to learning lit and have enough novelty and audience promise to interest the child who would rather usually go do his own thing.

Your local theater may have children's shows that are disability friendly.  Here is one listing: https://www.spectrumartsautism.org/theatre.html but it is certainly not comprehensive.  

You might also work with the children's librarian at the public library..it mayhap that a youth group is putting on a puppet show and would be willing to run it a second time for a special needs audience thru the library.

  Our librarian and the towns here also bring in music groups, and of course the local symphonies have an annual instrument petting zoo prior to a children's appropriate concert (the intros will help the children discover the voices and the story they are telling).   

Is he taking music as a subject so that he has a sensory friendly way of growing his ability to tell and to understand a story?

Interesting ideas! I had gotten some puppet/retelling kits from the library to work on retelling, but they're too young. The RT would be the next step up from that, more mature but same skills, you're right. And no, behavior is more complex with him. Engagement, compliance, self-regulation. He's a bit more challenging to work with. I've come across children's theatre opportunities in the big city. They're sort of in that vague "that would be nice" category that things fall into when you don't get around to them, sigh. We even have sensory-friendly orchestra performances that we haven't gotten around to trying, sigh. In my slight defense, I worked so hard this past year I finished coughing up blood and sick for three months. I'm only just beginning to recover from that. I'm going to be taking him to some things, but I'm under strict orders from caring family to take care of myself FIRST. And if it means less therapies, less outings, then that's what it will mean. No evening therapies that cut out my ability to work out, nothing that leaves me running ragged again.

We'll see how the music therapy rolls, meeting them this week. Honestly, I just want him to be able to sing. When we worked on it before we made progress, and I think he's ready to do more, as he sort of tries a lot. Half of church is music, so I'm back to that thing of how do I make it more comfortable for him to be there. Right now, he can only hum most of the time, which sucks.

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

One other tip is free read in the morning, for about 15 minutes, its a transition between play and studies. 

Ooo, that's smart!!

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

The recommendation I usually give for your age lad is J.C. Greenburg's Andrew Lost series...

Ok, that's hilarious! It has a lot of description, so I'm thinking working on our V/V stuff first would be good. If he's not visualizing, the text will be lost on him. But yeah, very funny! I added it to my cart to keep track of it. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

Yup, that's right. Although, many kids can read fluently WAY beyond what they can comprehend, so at a certain point, you have to make them read "easy" books, but ones they can understand. I had to give one of my students books that were waaaaaay easier than her "reading level," and she was kinda aggravated, but her comprehension really improved because she started at an appropriate level. Luckily her mom was on board - many parents balk at reading "easy" books.

Yup, that's why we started going through F&P leveled readers, trying to give him that easier exposure. That's why he's reading as well as he is. It totally boosted his confidence. Thing is, it didn't resolve the actual underlying comprehension issues. He still has issues there, and I'm suspecting the Jan Richardson books are gonna cut right to the chase on that. 

When Scholastic has guided reading level book lists using letters, are those referring to F&P levels? https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/collections/17-18/guided-reading-book-lists-by-level/  I still think I want to do some High Noon reading, just because I think they could be really stellar for subtly reinforcing decoding and building fluency. I think we could have categories to our reading, like doing guided reading AND reading that is focused on fluent, advancing decoding AND reading that is focused on building leisure habits and and... Of course me and my great aspirations lol. I'm just saying that's why we're home, to be flexible like that. I tend to own already a lot of the books on the Scholastic Guided Reading lists, so that's especially handy for me. Otherwise you just have piles and can't translate them into function. Things always have to be just right with him, gentle steps, or he pretty quickly shuts down or elopes. We've been working on saying it's too hard, that he needs a break, but still it's an issue.

When you're working with your kids, do you use some kind of visual for requesting a break and saying they want to stop, or do they just all use language? It seems like, in that moment, he's going back to behavior instead of language, even though we work and work on it. It might even be a really obvious or basic thing that his language is shutting down when he's stressed, hadn't thought of it that way, don't know. And I'm not sure that's fixable, because it's a pretty common phenomenon.

So anyways, you're saying it's going back, but it's sort of going back to the going back progression we were on, lol. We petered out with the F&P leveled readers, because they got sucky. We were seriously on a roll, doing great things going that way. It was very calming for him, the gentle progression where the level crept up very slowly, no major jumps. Not the decoding level but the language demands, the length, the complexity of the overall effect.

Edited August 14, 2018 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

I'm chuckling because yeah, lots of leveled readers sound dumb after a while. Sigh. I think Raz might fit your need, because he can see the progression right there, levels A-Z, and the books are quite good. I find the progression to be gentle, too, no big jumps between levels. And you can always read a harder book followed by an easier book, to end on a confident note. You can also read the books ahead of time, so if you're going up a level, you could choose one that you're sure he can do... also could preview words that you think he'll miss, like, in this book you'll see X, X, and X, and write the words on index cards beforehand. That way, he may not feel anxious about seeing an unknown word, because you already told him he's not supposed to know how to read it. 

I never had a visual or a signal for needing a break, but that's a good idea. I had to insist some of my students take breaks, walk away, etc. because they wouldn't know they how they were feeling. They just felt BAD, stressed. One in particular just reacted as angry, when I knew she was actually confused/overwhelmed. I would guess you'll have to be his emotional barometer for now! That's ok ? 

[Kanin]

For levels... I think Scholastic, F&P, Raz, etc. all have their own labeling systems. You can use this chart to get an idea of how they compare: https://www.readinga-z.com/learninga-z-levels/level-correlation-chart/

 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

I do have a book suggestion for you: from Great Source, the Reader's Handbook. It will walk you through the way educators have picked apart the reading process and stretched it across the 'grade levels'. https://www.amazon.com/Great-Source-Readers-Handbook-Handbooks/dp/0669488585/ref=pd_sim_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0669488585&pd_rd_r=05H4Z5DNAS43EXQH3VST&pd_rd_w=Gu3Ew&pd_rd_wg=4b0lf&psc=1&refRID=05H4Z5DNAS43EXQH3VST

These books would reinforce SGM work. 

We are also finding that with the SGM stuff, we need word lists/signal words when we get to the critical thinking triangle--not just character traits and emotions, but science words, history words, etc. Just a heads-up that you might want to dig for some of those things. SGM gives examples, but the only lists I've seen from them are emotions and character traits. 

I think that inferencing in SGM is largely based on the critical thinking triangle.

[kbutton]

Oh, we aren't using it yet, and I don't think we will until we're further into SGM, or else I'll use it with my other kiddo, but Great Source also has a Daybook of Critical Reading and Writing series that basically puts The Reader's Handbook into practice. The student writes/marks directly into the books as well. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by kbutton
Corrected book title

[Lecka]

Just to share, with my son who has autism, I have had hope that by working on an associated skill he would improve in comprehension.  

I have not really seen that with him.  He has improved with comprehension by focusing on comprehension.  And — language level that is needed, as a foundation for comprehension.

If anything, improvement in comprehension has supported his other areas of reading development.  

This has also been surprising for me to see..... he has just recently improved with non-fiction.  He has also just gotten more into level G with F and P.  

I have seen some things where it comes across like this goes together, that getting to a certain level of comprehension will make non-fiction easier.  

He’s in a 1st/2nd grade level, and he has to pass comprehension questions (open-ended questions) to pass into a higher level (and then in reading group he can be grouped with kids working on answering the same kind-of open-ended questions, which is helpful for him).  

It is frustrating to have it go slowly, but for my son it is a good way to be.

What I see sometimes is kids who clearly need to be in a higher level even though they cannot do everything in a lower level.  But if nobody keeps working on those holes (like in speech therapy) then they do have holes when they are a little older.  

Anyway I think it’s good to have a mix of levels and have an appropriate level for different skills, some will be a lot higher and some will be lower.  

I don’t think it’s one-or-the-other, but I think there are often two extremes, and in one, the child goes with their strengths but a lot of gaps accumulate.  In another, a child goes slowly and is tied to a lower level, but has very solid mastery.  

They both have problems!!!!!!!

To be in the middle you do need a mix of levels. 

I think the temptation is to try to place things based on the highest level.

But really everything needs to be appropriate (or even easier to build confidence).  

[Lecka]

Another thing that hasn’t been the case here.... I have heard that some kids with autism have higher comprehension with reading than listening because of auditory processing, and because of being able to re-read. 

Well, I have not seen any real difference that way yet. 

What I am seeing is that my son has to bring a lot of language to the table to support him in doing every other aspect of reading.  So his expressive language is very, very tied to his reading.  So I think those things that are focusing on comprehension/expressive language (such as Mindwings) are going to provide a boost to every part of reading (though I think that’s true for every part of reading lol, they all work together).  

But anyway — I have hoped for reading to bring improvement in language and comprehension, and I’m seeing turn out to be more than language and comprehension are bringing improvement in reading.  They do go together, but it hasn’t gone how I expected.  

Also, for the comprehension books you have linked on Amazon, I have looked at them a lot and they look great. But it’s the kind of thing that very difficult for me to plan and implement.  Whatever works for other people, and I’m more of a “follow the directions” person.  But — Mindwings is covering the same ground.  But even Mindwings looks hard for me to implement right now.  But, there are book companions on TPT that are covering the same ground also, that I look at and they look very doable for me, they are all prepped and I can just follow the directions.  They look more prepped than Mindwings, too.  

But anyway — whatever works and is something you can implement.  But if you’ve looked at Mindwings and ordered some from them, I don’t think the books from Amazon are going to really cover new ground.  They are in the same category as Mindwings stuff.  They are similar.  

My problem is it’s hard for me to go from knowing about comprehension strategies; to picking one to focus on; to making it happen; and doing it in a way that involves visual supports; and doing it in a way to encourage the most language use (with the visual supports).  So — that’s why I think the pre-made ones are good for me.  But again — if it was easier with my child, I can just talk off-the-cuff, I can with my other kids.

But the thing is also, if my son benefits from more support, more structure, visual supports;  then doing oral-only is still good but it’s not going to be as good for him as if he also has times when there is the structure and the visual (written/graphic organizer) part.  And there are book companions that come with those ready to fill out!  

I think a strength of Mindwings though is I think it does a lot more to tie in with expressive language, and making sure kids do the oral retell and oral response steps.  

The thing is — and this was mentioned in the Mindwings blog post — but there are kids who can answer the comprehension questions, but can’t do a retell or summary.  So is that addressed, or is that passed by?  Mindwings does address it.  The book companions don’t explicitly address that (though it could be added).  

Anyway — those are things I’ve been thinking about lately as far as comprhension.  

But I have different levels in mind, involving:  independent reading level (where fluency, decoding, and comprehension all together); read-alouds where he can follow along and answer specific-to-a-part comprehension questions but where he can’t do a retell or beginning/middle/end or a summary or anything like that;  shorter/easier books he can listen to and can do some of the story structure or beginning/middle/end questions, and then read-alouds so easy he can do a retell with beginning/middle/end.  

That reflects that right now I am concerned about retells and beginning/middle/last, and with expressive language he can do first, then, last but it is hard for him and that’s a current therapy goal for him, so I’m reinforcing that at home.  

So — I do go from what his speech therapy and IEP reading goals are, to what I want to reinforce at home.  So I think working with a speech therapist will be really helpful.

I hope he/she can help with picking goals to focus on and with finding his level.  

I think if you knew his level for different things, it would be a lot easier.

Also, I have an opinion, I think when you look for his independent reading level, he should be reading with prosody at that level.  And then you can look for books that are interesting to him.  But I wouldn’t rule things out as too easy, you want it to be easy if it is going to be independent.  

Edited August 14, 2018 by Lecka

[Guest]

To cater to the child's level and specific needs requires individualized planning and focused intervention/ tutoring. This is where I can see a group setting failing to address specific needs.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Another thing that hasn’t been the case here.... I have heard that some kids with autism have higher comprehension with reading than listening because of auditory processing, and because of being able to But anyway — whatever works and is something you can implement.  But if you’ve looked at Mindwings and ordered some from them, I don’t think the books from Amazon are going to really cover new ground.  They are in the same category as Mindwings stuff.  They are similar.  

My problem is it’s hard for me to go from knowing about comprehension strategies; to picking one to focus on; to making it happen; and doing it in a way that involves visual supports; and doing it in a way to encourage the most language use (with the visual supports).  So — that’s why I think the pre-made ones are good for me.  But again — if it was easier with my child, I can just talk off-the-cuff, I can with my other kids.

But the thing is also, if my son benefits from more support, more structure, visual supports;  then doing oral-only is still good but it’s not going to be as good for him as if he also has times when there is the structure and the visual (written/graphic organizer) part.  And there are book companions that come with those ready to fill out!  

I think a strength of Mindwings though is I think it does a lot more to tie in with expressive language, and making sure kids do the oral retell and oral response steps.  

The thing is — and this was mentioned in the Mindwings blog post — but there are kids who can answer the comprehension questions, but can’t do a retell or summary.  So is that addressed, or is that passed by?  Mindwings does address it.  The book companions don’t explicitly address that (though it could be added).  

 

I think that to make a fair comparison someone would have to have access to the materials that they are comparing. Otherwise, the comparison is based on snippets from previews and assumptions. I have only looked at Mindwings enough to decide that it's not the way I do things. I would not go onto any comparisons with materials that I do not personally own or have immediate access to. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

PeterPan, the best advice I can give you is to stop looking back at what should have... would have... could have. It really doesn't matter! Look forward. Look at your own child and try to determine his level and needs from your own observations, and with the help of professionals that have had the opportunity to work with and know your child. Being pulled in every which direction by people's advice that are not experts is a very difficult place to be in! As Barry Prizant advocates, look at the specific child and his specific strengths/ weaknesses. How things have or will play out for other people's children does not say much about yours or any other autistic child. Every child on the spectrum is unique, as you already know. Work with the child you have.

It is time for me to take off again. Your boy has been faced with many challenges and so have you working with him. He has made great progress in spite of it. Hold on to that and look to the future!

I wish you all the best,

M

Edited August 14, 2018 by Guest

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

So — I do go from what his speech therapy and IEP reading goals are, to what I want to reinforce at home.  So I think working with a speech therapist will be really helpful.

Beware I'm just in a bad mood here, but I just wasted ANOTHER 4 hours of our lives driving to an SLP and driving back only for her to be crap and worthless. Again. ASHA needs to get it together and start certifying people in stuff and stop making someone with too little training getting dumped so many things. One person is NOT going to be an expert in all things. The practice gave me a NOVICE, an absolute, utter, total NOVICE. I'm so upset. 

I could have spent a nice afternoon at the pool, instead I'm nursing a headache from their air system. The SLP didn't prepare, had no real plan to work with him AT ALL, thought EET was the great mountain for expressive language, and handed him apps. No ABA training (most do because it makes them better at interacting), no clue, not prepared. He literally ate her up. 

Now to his credit, he was really flexible afterward and said maybe she'd turn out to be like his current PROMPT therapist who maybe took a while for him to warm up to. But no, this chick just lacked skills. Too novice.

I found an SLP who specializes in literacy, and they don't take the scholarship. They clearly keep busy and don't want the paperwork hassle, fine. Just saying it's not all glorious like oh go hire one. And this was at an autism school where I wasted my time today. Now they have 5-8 more, but the point is they're so incompetent they put him with a novice.

I'm going to eat radishes till I'm a nicer person. Maybe it will work. Don't worry, they're tucked in a taco salad, but still they're vile.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Moved On said:

To cater to the child's level and specific needs requires individualized planning and focused intervention/ tutoring. This is where I can see a group setting failing to address specific needs.

Ironically, some intervention specialists and teachers in group settings are working harder than the SLPs. (beware, more rant) The stats are that most SLPs are making one thing to do with all their caseload. One prep, adapt. Sounds great till you get to my kid. Sounds great till I walk in and she had enough to busy him for 10 minutes, not 45. And then she had no ability to flex, to ramp up. I'm on a rant. Idiots, total idiots. People are not all the same.

It can work out ok prepping like that. We had an OT that did that, prepping one major approach for the day and adapting, and she was just stellar at it. She was always phenomenally prepared. But when people are low skill level, it's gonna bite 'em.

What's becoming obvious is that sometimes the teachers in those group settings are being given materials that tell them where to go. Like this guided reading, it's not so utterly more brilliant than anything else or radically better than what Moved On or anyone else is doing. But the ability to get trained in something or have a manual that comes with questions is really handy. It's that idiot-proof Lecka was talking about. They probably learn the list of skills and then get more flexible.

Thing is, with someone like my dd, I never needed any of this. She could just DO it, and a number of kids probably can. And what is going on with ds is this repeated unraveling of the "well if we could fix this thing then xyz would get better." Instead what happens is we're finding we fix A so we CAN fix B so we can work on C, etc. Or, as I read it put in one place, I was stuck on the praxis theory of autism, this idea that if I could fix his praxis, all the rest would just BE there. It's the whole assumption behind RPM, etc. Then you start unraveling it in my ds and you're like no, we've nailed the praxis and it's HIM, a developmental language delay. So now you've got hard data coming out showing RPM is screwed, and that really fundamentally messes with the parent's hope that inside is this brilliance just WAITING TO COME OUT if you could just fix the praxis. So then you're like well if the language was in place, the comprehension and brilliant analysis would be there. That is your initial assumption or dream as a parent.

So fine, just keep kicking us. Life is kicking us, the nature of autism is kicking us. And it sucks. So fine, we're going to have to build all the other pieces just like we did picking up his stinking jaw so he could talk, just like we did teaching him to retract and round. 

I think I'm feeling like a kickball today. Or a football. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Moved On said:

 

I think that to make a fair comparison someone would have to have access to the materials that they are comparing. Otherwise, the comparison is based on snippets from previews and assumptions. I have only looked at Mindwings enough to decide that it's not the way I do things. I would not go onto any comparisons with materials that I do not personally own or have immediate access to. 

Yup. Mindwings has holes. I don't have to go through it page by page to know conceptually there are leaps, things where other programs are complementary. I have high hopes for this Richardson stuff. The outline of her approach to summarizing was solid, and I think it will explain why people are doing MW/SGM pieces and not having them come into a whole. I think the SGM was still too linear, rather than going at it conceptually.

36 minutes ago, Moved On said:

PeterPan, the best advice I can give you is to stop looking back at what should have... would have... could have. It really doesn't matter! Look forward.

Thanks! We've made SO much progress, especially the last 8 months, I'm really not freakish. It's turbulent while you're learning something new and getting your assumptions kicked around and your mental hair dissheveled, lol, but it will settle back down. Just because we haven't accomplished something YET doesn't mean we WON'T. It just means we haven't done it YET. I have actual confidence that we'll be able to get where we want to be. I think if we stay calm and protect our time together and don't waste time driving to therapies with people who AREN'T GOING TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING, we'll get where we need to be. The single most valuable person to him continues to be ME, and it's astonishing how hard it is to find people who get that. A laundry list of workers, all working at half level, would not get him to the same place. They might get some kids somewhere, but they wouldn't get HIM somewhere. He has signficant potential and needs workers who are ready to step up to the plate. The PhD OT we saw today was ready to step up to the plate. The SLP was an utter flop, not ready to work with him, not ready to work this hard, not ready to step up to what it really takes to work with the hardest clients.

I need a nap. I just get so tired. I try so hard sometimes. (whine)

[Lecka]

My point was more, that there’s not any one comprehension program out there, but sometimes it can be good to go with a quality program, instead of looking for “the one true program.”  Something that will check the block for “comprehension/expressive language.”  

I’m sorry the new speech therapist didn’t go better.  

[ktgrok]

On 8/12/2018 at 9:51 PM, PeterPan said:

Ok, I was dragging up his WIAT scores to submit for our notification. Pseudoword decoding was SS 89 but percentile 23, which is considered average. Standard deviation on the WIAT is 15. His reading comprehension, are you ready for this? SS 141, percentile 99.7. And then, just for fun, his spelling was SS 77, percentile 6, and his written expression was SS 65, percentile *1*. LOL

Crazy. 99.7%ile for reading comprehension, standard score 141 on a WIAT in March, and that was BEFORE our language work with absolutely assuredly, visibly bumped his comprehension!! Decoding of nonsense, not great, not terrible. Spelling junk, writing he wouldn't even cooperate with. So top of the line for reading for his age, does not choose to read at all. 

So why do you think he has a comprehension issue? Because he can't narrate after reading? is it that he "can't" or that he won't? And is it an issue comprehending what he read, or is it an issue with expressing what he comprehended? Might this be an expressive language issue, not a comprehension issue (which would explain why he does better on multiple choice versus narration). 

Reading comprehension = decoding + language 

You know he has a language issue, so I'd focus on that. 

Also, having an Aspie myself, yes, they only what to do what they want to do, lol. Does he have a current obsession that you could tie in to reading? Like, maybe some "cheat" manuals with tips for the games he likes to play?

Also, graphic novels were definitely the thing that got my aspie reading for pleasure. For him it was Naruto books. For your son it might be something else, but make sure you NEVER ask comprehension questions about pleasure reading! 

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

So why do you think he has a comprehension issue? Because he can't narrate after reading? is it that he "can't" or that he won't? And is it an issue comprehending what he read, or is it an issue with expressing what he comprehended? Might this be an expressive language issue, not a comprehension issue (which would explain why he does better on multiple choice versus narration). 

This is actually terrific analysis. You may be correct that that's what it's saying, because he seems fine with open-ended questions when I work with him. And, further to the point, what you're saying fits the data. His receptive was only slightly behind 8 years at age 9.5, vs his expressive being quite behind (age 5 at 9.5). Now that IS an issue!! But his expressive language just in general, like how he'd probably score on the SPELT, has radically taken off. At some point we'll probably need to retest. We have farther to go and more to get done. He's also at the stage my dd hit ,where he retorts that if you want to know you can read it yourself, etc. It's not like narrative is just this perennially normal thing to do, lol. Their minds want to move on to something else. That's why I think if I have the really targeted analytical questions, we'll get somewhere.

So yes, that's what I think it is, in my own mind, that he understands but has to get it out. Now the practice getting it out IS essential, sure! But it's not the same as not understanding. And some of it is whether he sees where he's going or is intrigued. He is all about efficiency and social justice, and to him it's an injustice to interrupt something he wants to happen (his read alouds) with questions, lol. I'm definitely committed to working on the pieces and building narratives, but there are lots of ways to work on it. I saw this book mentioned, and it intrigues me as sort of an analytical way to approach composition and narrative language.                            Patterns of Power: Inviting Young Writers into the Conventions of Language, Grades 1-5                 I'm not saying implement it the way he does, but it just inspired me a lot with things we *could* do. 

22 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

You know he has a language issue, so I'd focus on that. 

Yup, and I find myself having my own visions of what would help him go forward. 

24 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, having an Aspie myself, yes, they only what to do what they want to do, lol. Does he have a current obsession that you could tie in to reading? Like, maybe some "cheat" manuals with tips for the games he likes to play?

Also, graphic novels were definitely the thing that got my aspie reading for pleasure. For him it was Naruto books. For your son it might be something else, but make sure you NEVER ask comprehension questions about pleasure reading! 

Oh that's HILARIOUS!! I hadn't even thought about manuals for Zelda, but he'd be all over that, lol. There would definitely be manuals for Zelda, lol. In fact, he might even read Zelda fiction if there was such a thing. I should totally look. It probably exists, lol. He's also into Tom & Jerry, which wouldn't be so dark.

Well thanks. I think that's a point well-taken that the issue is getting it out, not so much understanding. There's some issue with understanding, but more with getting it out. And he just sorta functions young. I'm just thinking about how that translates into the High Noon books. I think I want to try a set or two of the Sound Out Phonics with him, just because I think more is more better. They seem to progress in language levels in the 1,2,3 books for each series where 3 is the most complex language. Dropping that language to a grade level that fits his receptive language, and then another grade level if it's meant to be more pleasure rather than instructional level, seems good. And then doing the workbooks and reading the stories aloud would let him work on that language. But I guess I shouldn't be expecting him to read for leisure above his receptive language level. That would be illogical.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ironically, some intervention specialists and teachers in group settings are working harder than the SLPs. (beware, more rant) The stats are that most SLPs are making one thing to do with all their caseload. One prep, adapt. Sounds great till you get to my kid. Sounds great till I walk in and she had enough to busy him for 10 minutes, not 45. And then she had no ability to flex, to ramp up. I'm on a rant. Idiots, total idiots. People are not all the same.

It can work out ok prepping like that. We had an OT that did that, prepping one major approach for the day and adapting, and she was just stellar at it. She was always phenomenally prepared. But when people are low skill level, it's gonna bite 'em.

What's becoming obvious is that sometimes the teachers in those group settings are being given materials that tell them where to go. Like this guided reading, it's not so utterly more brilliant than anything else or radically better than what Moved On or anyone else is doing. But the ability to get trained in something or have a manual that comes with questions is really handy. It's that idiot-proof Lecka was talking about. They probably learn the list of skills and then get more flexible.

Thing is, with someone like my dd, I never needed any of this. She could just DO it, and a number of kids probably can. And what is going on with ds is this repeated unraveling of the "well if we could fix this thing then xyz would get better." Instead what happens is we're finding we fix A so we CAN fix B so we can work on C, etc. Or, as I read it put in one place, I was stuck on the praxis theory of autism, this idea that if I could fix his praxis, all the rest would just BE there. It's the whole assumption behind RPM, etc. Then you start unraveling it in my ds and you're like no, we've nailed the praxis and it's HIM, a developmental language delay. So now you've got hard data coming out showing RPM is screwed, and that really fundamentally messes with the parent's hope that inside is this brilliance just WAITING TO COME OUT if you could just fix the praxis. So then you're like well if the language was in place, the comprehension and brilliant analysis would be there. That is your initial assumption or dream as a parent.

So fine, just keep kicking us. Life is kicking us, the nature of autism is kicking us. And it sucks. So fine, we're going to have to build all the other pieces just like we did picking up his stinking jaw so he could talk, just like we did teaching him to retract and round. 

I think I'm feeling like a kickball today. Or a football. 

 

I am not disagreeing with you at all! Yes, I can see that happening with therapists. I have spoken with various OTs/ PTs and SLPs, LOL. I don't even bother to rant anymore! I expect what is out there. We have gone as far as intending to drive 2 hours each way for what we want and still things have not panned out for one reason or the other. Thing with me is, I push for specifics ahead of time. I am not about to drive out there for nothing! You sign a contract you are stuck for an "x" period of time here, and if you don't show up, the funding does not cover the expense, which means you pay out-of-pocket. It's been amost a full year since we have had our funding approved and I have pretty much given up on finding anyone that will work on what I know they need, or not try to rip us off, or not try to insult my intelligence with claims that I know are not true, or not try to give us a novice therapist, etc. Yes, I have had the novice attempt. It didn't fly! We were going for something very specific and the novice, not only was not certified, but she hadn't even had any exposure. If I list attempts I have made with places 1-2 hours away from us, you would see that it makes for a pretty long list of people I have contacted. 

What I meant about the group setting was that in a group setting, unless it is an autism school, you will not get the specialized interventions, like for example expressive language deficits, that are autism specific. That is only one example. The kids are grouped by developmental level. Kids with autism have a range of strengths and weaknesses and their development is atypical. Then you add 2E to that and it gets even more complicated. So there are going to be holes, even when they make progress and move up levels. The setting, limited funding, limited specialized staff... there's just no way they can cater to each child's needs. I don't know about autism schools and I cannot speak specifically about autism schools (no personal experience), but private and public schools? This will be an issue!

As for expressive language, I am going to keep bringing up procedural memory until you notice ?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=zuILVNblenIC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=procedural+memory+expressive+language+syntax&source=bl&ots=alDkfZqGgp&sig=d-4KnQNsbKDaUIFinUz3rCesJ4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRt9Sii-7cAhXKrVQKHQa2DPIQ6AEwEHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=procedural memory expressive language syntax&f=false

Find page 193 if it doesn't open directly there. The link is in Google books, which is why I cannot copy-paste to quote. 

I'm sorry for the day you had! It sucks big time, and yes, at the end of the day, we are all our kids have. Good therapists these days are few and far between.  

[Guest]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 I have high hopes for this Richardson stuff. 

 

I saw you mention the books in your other post. I added them on my to look into list ? I want to look at Serravallo's new book that is coming out as well.  

I don't see anything as, intervene, do xyz, boom, and we are done. I dig deep. I look at all aspects of their life, not just academic. I envision the future and what they might need, not be prepared for, etc. and I work on areas that I see they need or might need help in. 

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Guest

[Terabith]

There are TONS of Zelda books!  Both nonfiction guides and fiction.  https://www.amazon.com/Legend-Zelda-Twilight-Princess-Vol/dp/1421593475/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1421593475&pd_rd_r=1J9EBC1MKR2P5J846V21&pd_rd_w=70m8a&pd_rd_wg=rNWj8&psc=1&refRID=1J9EBC1MKR2P5J846V21&dpID=51LWzajK8BL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=detail

[Guest]

PeterPan, have you seen this?

 

Her approach is certainly impressive! I like how she keeps up with each child by taking notes on what each child needs ahead of time (or did she mention that in the other video I watched?). I stand by my previous comment that in a group setting it is difficult for personalized attention and I am sensing that she most likely makes a couple of key points to focus on per child (can't say for sure). But in your case it doesn't really matter since you will be working with your child one-on-one. 

If you could turn back the time, I would probably consider buying the materials, just to get a feel for how she approaches/ introduces things. I follow a similar approach in the sense that I incorporate a lot into our reading and I also make our lessons interactive, bringing in hands on materials, writing, looking up concepts/ subjects to create background knowledge, etc. I have tons of resources that I pool materials from to work on what my son needs work on. At the same time, I use and will be using curricula, and intend to start Writing & Rhetoric in the fall, which also incorporates comprehension strategies and connects them to writing. He has done a lot of writing through models on his own, it's his thing, which makes me think it will work well for him. So I don't really need the amount of handholding from other resources in our case. I like strategies books because they give me ideas on resources/ materials and strategies I can bring in when we need to build/ practice skills in a certain area and thus eliminate any roadblocks that may come up while using curricula. I also took a look at the description for Serravallo's new book and I won't be needing that one either. 

Hope you find what works best for you and your boy,

M

Edited August 15, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

You notice she talks about using sentence starters to initiate the retelling and then asking them to share more to encourage them to continue? I mentioned that in another thread when I said how we started narrations when my son was younger. Writing and Rhetoric also uses sentence starters, and sentence starters are mentioned in other resources I own as well.  

ETA: Obviously, if she has them narrating, then she uses the comprehension skills to guide them towards narration. This is what I have done. I built on my son's expressive language throughout the day, tapping into his procedural memory, while the comprehensions strategies built on better comprehension while reading, which then built on the ability to narrate. 

Yikes! They desperately need posture, pencil grip, and handwriting guidance! 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Guest