Stuff on teaching reading

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

No.  I thought about teaching her to follow along, but I tried it myself, and I HATED doing it personally.  I love reading, and I love listening, but doing the two together?  The speed just isn't right.  So I figured that if it was something I wasn't willing to do myself, I shouldn't try to compel my kid.  I did do specific fluency work with both kids when they were about second grade age where I would read a passage and then have them read it aloud twice.  Started after we did a Time 4 Learning trial with my oldest on the second grade language arts, and that approach to fluency work really helped her.  It was a useful exercise.  Actually, the Time 4 Learning second grade language arts was really, really good.  Didn't like their other levels nearly as much, but their second grade stuff was good review.  He's probably beyond that, though.

Oh that's interesting. See I have this memory of being in 6th grade in a really tiny, one room christian school where this lady would literally teach all the junior high and up kids together and even some elementary. It was like homeschooling on steroids!!! LOL Talk about hard work. She would write the lists on the board and then when we had completed them and had free time we could go to the meager one bookcase library and pick a book to listen to on cassette at a low table and follow along. And, come to think of it, it's really odd that there were audios because I seem to remember these as being the BJU Journeyforth type books. Do they even sell audios of those anymore? And I *do* remember enjoying them, not at first but maybe with time, because it was one of the few things there to enjoy, lol. 

I think you could be onto something with the speed of the reading. It's possible those particular books were read slowly. It's a really interesting question. It might be something for me to look into. And, iirc we ended up re-listening to books that way because there were a limited number. It might be something where skill improves by doing that. The speed question though is really good. I thought the immersion reading with the highlighting was kind of distracting and fast. If you slow down the audio, the sound distorts. Well it's not supposed to, right? I just doubt ds would want that too much. He seems to think faster is better, lol. But really, slowing it down could help.

[Terabith]

That all sounds really good.  The easier the decoding is, the better the syntax/ grammar/ general language and comprehension are, the more bang you're going to get for your reading buck, so that would be super solid.  And boredom is a solid motivator.  I mean, sometimes if I'm sufficiently bored, I might even clean!  

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Oh that's interesting. See I have this memory of being in 6th grade in a really tiny, one room christian school where this lady would literally teach all the junior high and up kids together and even some elementary. It was like homeschooling on steroids!!! LOL Talk about hard work. She would write the lists on the board and then when we had completed them and had free time we could go to the meager one bookcase library and pick a book to listen to on cassette at a low table and follow along. And, come to think of it, it's really odd that there were audios because I seem to remember these as being the BJU Journeyforth type books. Do they even sell audios of those anymore? And I *do* remember enjoying them, not at first but maybe with time, because it was one of the few things there to enjoy, lol. 

I think you could be onto something with the speed of the reading. It's possible those particular books were read slowly. It's a really interesting question. It might be something for me to look into. And, iirc we ended up re-listening to books that way because there were a limited number. It might be something where skill improves by doing that. The speed question though is really good. I thought the immersion reading with the highlighting was kind of distracting and fast. If you slow down the audio, the sound distorts. Well it's not supposed to, right? I just doubt ds would want that too much. He seems to think faster is better, lol. But really, slowing it down could help.

When I was in elementary school, we had listening stations with books on cassettes.  But I've always been a lightning fast reader.  So even in elementary school, I would have to either read OR listen, but I couldn't do them both at the same time.  I just read so much faster than the audio.  And I think most proficient readers are going to silently read faster than someone reading aloud.  It's just hard to mesh silent and oral reading.  I love both, but not together.  

[PeterPan]

12 minutes ago, Terabith said:

When I was in elementary school, we had listening stations with books on cassettes.  But I've always been a lightning fast reader.  So even in elementary school, I would have to either read OR listen, but I couldn't do them both at the same time.  I just read so much faster than the audio.  And I think most proficient readers are going to silently read faster than someone reading aloud.  It's just hard to mesh silent and oral reading.  I love both, but not together.  

I'll have to ponder that. I could talk with him about it and see. Hadn't thought of it that way. I must have been a very boring reader, because I liked the read alongs, lol.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

Have you read Strategies That Work? I found a couple of helpful reading comprehension books, but that was probably my favorite.

This is another good one I have mentioned here before (last year I believe?) and likely also deleted, from what I recall. I remember you sharing about it at the time as well, Storygirl. Another one of my purchases that I consider a good investment, personally!

[Guest]

Haven't read through all the posts. Hopefully I'll find the time before bed!

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

nm

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[PeterPan]

Well when I could be sleeping, haha, instead I'm up looking at Raz Kids. That's interesting. It looks like it's keyed heavily to Fountas & Pinnell readers. We did quite a few of those, got up to that L-ish range, and sort of panned out. You can laugh, but I almost think the best use of Raz for ds would be prosody work. But whatever, that's a total rabbit trail. What happened when we did F&P before seemed to be that as the works got longer, they got duller. Something happened and our rocket pace just fizzled and flopped, poof. Really though, I can see where the format, showing only one page at a time, could be very compelling for techie kids and keep them going. If it were free, I'd definitely do it, lol. I definitely need to do the trial at some point, once his glasses are in. Mainer, are you actually assigning it in class?

[ElizabethB]

3 hours ago, Storygirl said:

DS also passed whatever comprehension test the school psych administered when he has his IEP testing. I have not seen the test myself, but the psych said that it included an auditory component. The teacher asked what the psych did to test for comprehension when he was reading silently, and the answer was that it was not the way those tests worked.

So DS could pass the test, but when it comes to reading a book or an article or an essay, he does not comprehend it enough.

I really don't know what the WIAT involves, but if it had an auditory component, it may have boosted your son's score, especially since he listens to so many audio books.

Also, DS can do pretty well on standardized testing where the comprehension being tested concerns the details from the article or passage. He can remember what someone did, etc. He can do explicit comprehension multiple choice testing without too much trouble. BUT he can't get the inference. At all. And as reading level increases, inference in texts increases substantially. The overall meaning, theme, connections that make the story come alive.... he doesn't get it.

But because he can do the explicit comprehension questions, he gains a higher score that does not accurately reflect his real difficulty with the texts.

I have decided this explains the discrepancy between DS's testing and his true functional comprehension, as my best guess.

DS's IEP targets inference as his comprehension goal now.

There is more wrapped up in the package of "why DS does not like reading and can't comprehend". He doesn't visualize. He lacks background knowledge. Etc. But those things are connected to the inference for him. They are all of the unstated things he needs to be able to discern when reading, that he does not discern.

My daughter was way ahead in almost everything in Language arts, but I needed to explicitly teach her how to infer the meaning of a word from context and how to infer the answers to comprehension questions.  The CAP Reasoning and Reading books explicitly teach inference for comprehension, they worked well for us, you can look at samples to see the level you need to start with.  

https://classicalacademicpress.com/subject/reasoning-reading/

Interestingly, my son, who took a lot more work with phonics and spelling and is taking a lot more work with grammar, gets both types of inference on his own.

It's mentioned here enough that you probably know about it, but it sounds like you need the visualizing and verbalizing products, too.

And, Don Potter's comprehension ideas may help, he says thinking about each thing and holding up the fingers helps his students, especially the native Spanish speakers who don't have as good of a background when reading English.

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/gonzalez_materials.pdf

[ElizabethB]

A fact based book in a subject he's interested in may be something he wants to read more.  For example, if he plays Minecraft, the Minecraft handbooks.  

For my students who don't infer well and are very fact based thinkers, they have trouble with material unless they can sound out every word perfectly, I've had students like this that don't do well with comprehension until they're reading at the 10th to 12th grade level, one word misread can throw them off.  They can find facts and answer simple fact based questions, but have a hard time with things if something is just a bit off.  I have had several students like this, they were actually reading above grade level when they started the program, after they went through my program twice, the second time helping younger students.  At the end of the 2nd class, they were reading at the high school grade level when in elementary school and their comprehension problems resolved.  They were also taught with sight words, though, so that may have played into it, but their accuracy was pretty good, just a slight slowdown in reading phonetic words vs. holistic words, and slightly less accurate with the phonetic than holistic words to start.

Also, sometimes people read without paying attention, you have to practice paying attention, you may have to work a sentence or two at a time and have him read it aloud if he didn't get the gist of it from reading it silently, then build up to longer groups of sentences, then a paragraph, then groups of paragraphs, etc.

The decoding is actually much easier to teach than the comprehension, you can go through my program in a week or two!  I like to make sure they can read everything at the 10th to 12th grade level with ease before working on anything else, it has cleared up comprehension problems for most of my students and has made their reading faster, making the rest of their work faster. 

[Pegs]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I recognised some of my DS in your description of your son, so I'm chiming in on one point in particular.

My DS used to be exactly the same with being able to read, but not choosing to. Decoding was not a problem. The first thing we did was VT. That paired with a new kindle helped his stamina, but he still wasn't choosing to lose himself in a book. Audiobooks, as with your son, have been a highly preferred activity for years. The next thing I did was schedule writing immediately after reading, and suddenly he learnt to read for prolonged periods in order to procrastinate (lol!). Finally, he became a reader after listening to 11 books in a series. One day he wanted the 12th book but I didn't have a spare audible credit, so I bought him the ebook. And that was it. Now he reads.

Just sharing in case any part of this process pops out at you as something to try. ? I don't know anything about language testing or data points, but I saw some similarities in our boys and thought I'd share.

[Lecka]

I’m skipping a lot here......

You cannot place his comprhension level from a standardized test.  You cannot.  

You know from the WIAT that he has some major strengths in comprehension.  You know he has some weak areas also.  

You can’t average it out and place him.  

There are probably different models..... but what I am familiar with has sentence-level comprehension and visualizing (up to the setting and sentence-level level) as very early, foundational things.

If you look (just for example) at VV and Mindwings, they both have visualizing or describing the setting with 5 senses as a very early step in their process.

Those kinds of “describe the setting” or “describe what someone sees, hears, tastes, feels, and smells” questions ARE open-ended questions and they DO click in with expressive language. 

So — can your son do this?  

If he can, that is great.  

If he can’t, and you place him in materials that are a 2nd-grade level, you are placing him in a level where this skill is already pretty expected.  At least — the expressive language to easily answer “setting” questions is expected.  And, the student is supposed to have internalized this to some extent and be using “setting” information to help with some inferences.  

Now I don’t know about that specifically, but that is something to consider.  It’s an early open-ended kind of question.  

So if you know open-ended questions are a weakness, one area is open-ended questions.

And then, you can’t place by a general test.  

You need to try asking open-ended questions and see which ones he can answer.  

I do not believe that a level of comprehension is the same between two kids, one of whom chooses a multiple choice answer, and one of whom produces an independent response by reading or writing.

Why — really, why — would a child have some really thoughtful, well-organized answer in their mind, but not be able to say it?  If they have access to communication whether it is writing, speaking, AAC, etc.  

I am a big fan of children having exposure and not limiting children.  That is what you are talking about with letting kids just select a response.  Yes that does show “a” level of comprehension.  

But it’s not as simple of saying “yes, that’s the child’s comprehension level.”  You can’t target intervention by that standard.  

For targeting intervention you need to see what the child can and can’t do independently.  Or, if not independently, with appropriate supports.

Answering multiple choice questions does not address this.  Period.  

Other areas of reading are important, too.  But this is not one to leave out.  

It is really common for kids to be working at a high grade level in a lot of ways and then be working at a lower grade level for this kind of thing.  

You miss that if you just go from a standardized test.  

[Lecka]

Also just a thought, but if you know open-ended questions are an area of concern, you can write down some answers he gives to show the new speech therapist.  

[Lecka]

Another suggestion.... you can try asking him questions about his audiobooks.  If he can answer those questions, then I think in-person read-alouds are still worthwhile, but you can see what he is getting out of the audiobooks.

I have just been looking at “book companions” on TPT.  You can search titles there and get comprehension activities.  

You can see if he likes that kind of structure better.  It can help answer the question of “why is there that difference in level.”  

You could also sit with him and pause occasionally for comments/questions.  

Without that, it could be anything from him liking background noise, to listening and enjoying but not practicing “active listening,” to really thinking about it and being engaged at a deep level.  

[Lecka]

https://storiesbystorie.com/mercy-watson-series/

For this as an example.... I remember he has liked Mercy Watson.

One of the sample activities is a character chart, with blank spaces to write things about Mercy.  Some would be adjectives to describe Mercy that weren’t directly stated in the story.  

You can see how fleshed out his understanding is of her character traits.  You can see what kinds of words he uses (does he use easy/basic adjectives or harder ones).  You can see what he is noticing or not noticing.  

You have said he likes worksheets, so maybe he will do better with worksheets.  The worksheets just need to have open-ended responses.  

It’s also really common to start with a graphic organizer and then use it as a support for expressive language.

It could be more supported than just doing oral responses while reading. 

But if that’s the case, it also implies that he needs that step.  

Anyway — I think it’s an important question to see why he does listen to audiobooks at a higher level.  

 

[Kanin]

11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

See what I mean? LOL Yes, CYA books are what the IS on our IEP team recommended. I haven't tried to find them yet (see me hanging my head). I could start with an amazon search. I know I read a lot of them at this age... I was planning to have him start reading magazines like Muse this year. I think they're the right level of zing and content. He's kind of freakishly behind and smart at the same time.

So basically, if he were in your room with those scores you'd do real high value, highly motivating material, and chunk it and require it and motivate it? Any strategies or tips at all? I'd take anything, like how long the sessions would be, whether you'd stand or your head or do prizes, whether you'd hand it and say read independently and walk away, etc. 

What usually happens if I read stuff with him is that he takes over and shoves me away and reads it himself silently once it's easily within range. So like when we started on those 3rd and 4th grade science and social studies reading comprehension workbooks, at first he was scared to tell himself (seemed to me), so I alternated sentences with him to get him through the page. Once he figured out he could do that and not go crazy, he took over. Maybe it's a self-regulation hurdle?? Seriously, that's how it seemed at the time, like this exercise in can I stay calm, will I be ok, can I be here... Once he got over that hurdle the actual reading was just a nothing. The topics were highly motivating and he just did it. Now he didn't go asking for those pages, but he could just sit down and do them, page after page, no problem.

So maybe it's an emotional self-regulation thing?

It sounds like you're doing great! I love that you alternate sentences with him and then he takes off to read on his own. That's perfect! Your strategy sounds perfect to me - as high interest as you can find, and then if he'll read it with you with no requirements, fine - but if he needs some requirements/motivators, I'd get a visual timer and set it for 5-10 minutes, whatever you think he'll tolerate. Usually, if the book is fun enough, my students won't need any other motivators, but sometimes I'll have to set the timer and then say, after this you get a break, or outside time, or whatever they really want. You just have to find the balance of interesting enough book + right amount of time to read + post-reading motivator. 

It sounds like he has a little anxiety around reading, so doing what you're doing, making it really fun and also reading with him till he feels confident, is awesome. Even though he can read at a higher level, easier books will also help him feel confident - like, oh yeah, reading time, I can always do well so it's not scary.

[Kanin]

These are the Choose Your Own Aventures that my students have liked:

Easier with mostly short passages (2nd grade level): Author is R.A. Montgomery. These are old, and some of them are really fantasy like a space monster or abominable snowman, and others are more "tame" like you become invisible and trick a bully, or you're on a ship and find pirates. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933390948/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i0

Harder with longer passages (3rd to 4th grade level): The series is called "An Interactive History Adventure." This one is the Titanic:  https://www.amazon.com/Titanic-Interactive-History-Adventure-Choose/dp/1515733882  

Just doing that search I found a whole bunch of CYAs... zombie Minecraft, etc. so there's bound to be something he likes!

[Storygirl]

5 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

My daughter was way ahead in almost everything in Language arts, but I needed to explicitly teach her how to infer the meaning of a word from context and how to infer the answers to comprehension questions.  The CAP Reasoning and Reading books explicitly teach inference for comprehension, they worked well for us, you can look at samples to see the level you need to start with.  

https://classicalacademicpress.com/subject/reasoning-reading/

Interestingly, my son, who took a lot more work with phonics and spelling and is taking a lot more work with grammar, gets both types of inference on his own.

It's mentioned here enough that you probably know about it, but it sounds like you need the visualizing and verbalizing products, too.

And, Don Potter's comprehension ideas may help, he says thinking about each thing and holding up the fingers helps his students, especially the native Spanish speakers who don't have as good of a background when reading English.

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/gonzalez_materials.pdf

Thanks so much for your suggestions!

DS is enrolled in brick and mortar school, so I'm pretty much out of it for choosing materials for him. He refuses to afterschool -- getting him to complete homework is a battle in itself.

He is changing schools this year from private to public, so things will be different, and I don't know yet what things will look like for his intervention going forward. But his intervention teacher at his private school was excellent and worked extremely hard with him on comprehension and inference throughout the three years she had him as a student.

He made good progress on explicit comprehension, and that goal was dropped from his IEP.

He made practically zero progress on inferential reasoning, despite working consistently with her for years, having extra support from us at home, and working with a SLP on language and reading.

He is a tough case. His inferential disability is deep.

He has nonverbal learning disorder, so he definitely does not visualize in his brain. We haven't used Visualizing and Verbalizing. I was told by someone I trusted that it was better done by a professional than at home. And when I looked briefly into going to a Lindaood-Bell center, I was unconvinced that he could handle the intensity of the program and make progress that would justify the cost.

He just doesn't make progress. I perhaps would consider doing V/V with him myself now, but there is no way he would cooperate. And, to be honest, his disability is such that I'm not sure he would be able to learn to visualize. It's a true disability for him, not just a weakness that he can shore up.

His new English teacher says that they read everything aloud in class and create visual aids, such as puppets of characters that they move around the board, so that kids can see who is talking to whom at certain sections of the book, and so on. I think that will be helpful to him.

[Storygirl]

PeterPan, I think there are two perhaps related but separate things to consider.

1) Does he need motivation to read? This is where being bored and having no options other than a high interest book might be helpful.

2) Does he understand what he is reading? Even if you give him an external motivation (boring car ride with nothing else to do), if he doesn't comprehend what he is reading, he still won't enjoy it, and creating motivation at one particular moment will not lead to him choosing to read for himself in another moment.

We motivate DS by having a required reading time at home. Or having books assigned at school. I also try to motivate him by providing books I think he would enjoy reading, even if they are comic or are at a lower reading level.

The comprehension piece also has to be addressed for DS separately, and it plays havoc with the motivation and enjoyment aspect.

[Storygirl]

I am sure that improving reading skills such as decoding, grammar, fluency, rate of reading, etc, makes the act of reading easier, and if it is easier, it will be more enjoyable and less work. So I think working on those skills, PeterPan, with the materials you mentioned, is a great idea!

But you said something in one of your posts about working on syntax being a key to better paragraph comprehension. Yes!!

But also perhaps no?

What I mean is that I think the autism part of the problem will still rear its ugly head, just as the NVLD does for my son.

Because with fiction, if you don't feel a connection to the characters, if you don't understand their motivation and root for them or feel sorry for them when things go wrong. If you don't understand the dynamics of the characters' social interactions and how that impacts the plot.........

then why would the book be enjoyable to read?

And added to that are all of things missed, due to trouble with inference. Which just gets to be more of a problem with books above the third or fourth grade reading level.

[Kanin]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well when I could be sleeping, haha, instead I'm up looking at Raz Kids. That's interesting. It looks like it's keyed heavily to Fountas & Pinnell readers. We did quite a few of those, got up to that L-ish range, and sort of panned out. You can laugh, but I almost think the best use of Raz for ds would be prosody work. But whatever, that's a total rabbit trail. What happened when we did F&P before seemed to be that as the works got longer, they got duller. Something happened and our rocket pace just fizzled and flopped, poof. Really though, I can see where the format, showing only one page at a time, could be very compelling for techie kids and keep them going. If it were free, I'd definitely do it, lol. I definitely need to do the trial at some point, once his glasses are in. Mainer, are you actually assigning it in class?

Oh yes, definitely using it in class! This year I'm doing more 1-1 tutorials, so it'll be me with a student, rather than the student on their own. It's just SO helpful to always have something on-level to read, and you can easily go up or down levels depending on the day. Last year, I had 2 reading groups, and the "off" group did Raz while I was with the other reading group. I had some motivators, too, like if your group is quiet, you earn 5 minutes of free time for the class after reading groups are done. It ALWAYS worked... they were so motivated by the 5 minutes that they were quiet for 20. I also had a motivator for getting a certain percentage correct on the quiz after a couple tries. That was helpful too. 

There's a fun feature your DS may like. Does he like reading aloud? Raz has a thing where the student records as they read aloud, and then they send it to their teacher.

Raz - it's expensive, but if you think about the number of books you get for that $100, it's a lot. If you read it on the iPad, it's pretty neat because you only see one page at time if you hold it vertically. Horizontally, you still see two pages like a regular book. I found the quizzes to be very good, most of the time... there were factual questions and more inferencing questions, and then always a written question so the student had to compose at least one sentence. Sometimes the questions were unnecessarily confusing, and needed a teacher's help to understand. Also good for practicing how to make mistakes and be okay with it...

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Pegs said:

I haven't read the whole thread, but I recognised some of my DS in your description of your son, so I'm chiming in on one point in particular.

My DS used to be exactly the same with being able to read, but not choosing to. Decoding was not a problem. The first thing we did was VT. That paired with a new kindle helped his stamina, but he still wasn't choosing to lose himself in a book. Audiobooks, as with your son, have been a highly preferred activity for years. The next thing I did was schedule writing immediately after reading, and suddenly he learnt to read for prolonged periods in order to procrastinate (lol!). Finally, he became a reader after listening to 11 books in a series. One day he wanted the 12th book but I didn't have a spare audible credit, so I bought him the ebook. And that was it. Now he reads.

Just sharing in case any part of this process pops out at you as something to try. ? I don't know anything about language testing or data points, but I saw some similarities in our boys and thought I'd share.

Ok Pegs, that was HILARIOUS!! Schedule something less preferred after reading so he wants to read more, lol. And you're right that he'll be motivated when he really needs to for access. ❤️️❤️️❤️️

[PeterPan]

Inferencing is sort of a never ending pit to work on. There are tiers for the intervention materials and I suspect Story's ds, like mine, will benefit from the highest tiers. Kbutton had a lead on a publisher for tier 3 even. Really it's just a big field not a straightforward fix like categories or functions or something. 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

...

The decoding is actually much easier to teach than the comprehension, you can go through my program in a week or two!  I like to make sure they can read everything at the 10th to 12th grade level with ease before working on anything else, it has cleared up comprehension problems for most of my students and has made their reading faster, making the rest of their work faster. 

Oh I'm definitely listening. I'm just thinking how many factors are involved there. That's more time for language to develop and more time working with simpler language. One should not *need* to decide at a grade 12 level to read unless the dc is perfectionist and only wants what they want lol. 

We've got 5 weeks more hairiness. I guess that would be twice through something that takes three weeks hmm. He shuts down if its a all too hard. Now words, just donkey mode.

Today he told me he "doesn't read" putting it alongside not wanting to wear glasses etc. So it's also mental. But we could play and see. I love aggressive mini goals.

[PeterPan]

LizB which link would I be looking for in the Bang it out in 2-3 weeks category... I think it's a good point that we could just take decoding off the table that way, just bumping it so high that it's NOT a factor. I like that.

Edited August 13, 2018 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

Aw. To me, saying he doesn't read, means it's hard and/or scary. The Scholastic Branches books are really great for an early 2nd grade level - easy for him and fun. I can vouch for the Boris series and Kung Pow Chicken, both comic book style. And available at the library ?  The Dragon Masters series is also awesome for reading slightly longer paragraphs, still lots of pictures though. I just love them all. 

[Lecka]

I am reading The Last Firehawk series to my son now, from Scholastic Branches.  He is really enjoying it.  

Edit:  it is too hard for him to read independently.  I know his F and P level and it is F/G, so I look for easier books for him to practice reading.  

But comprehension is part of a reading level.  

For a lot of kids with autism, their comprehension level is lower than their decoding level, so they may read “below” their decoding level but it’s still a good level.  There are also different kinds of comprehension demands.  It makes a big difference.  

Edited August 13, 2018 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

PeterPan, I think there are two perhaps related but separate things to consider.

1) Does he need motivation to read? This is where being bored and having no options other than a high interest book might be helpful.

2) Does he understand what he is reading? Even if you give him an external motivation (boring car ride with nothing else to do), if he doesn't comprehend what he is reading, he still won't enjoy it, and creating motivation at one particular moment will not lead to him choosing to read for himself in another moment.

We motivate DS by having a required reading time at home. Or having books assigned at school. I also try to motivate him by providing books I think he would enjoy reading, even if they are comic or are at a lower reading level.

The comprehension piece also has to be addressed for DS separately, and it plays havoc with the motivation and enjoyment aspect.

I live how clearly you're putting this. I think he's secretly motivated but he has comprehension issues and is discouraged. So he needs the issues shored up and then confidence. I think Mariners point that paired reading for him is about confidence is right on. I think Leckas point about how comprehension and language merge is apt too. I haven't had a working partner in an SLP for that and then be just now gotten him to where he CAN even do those things. It's our next big step with our pile of picture books. And it fits with what I was thinking and the behaviorist was saying to apply rather than going farther.

[Lecka]

Do you have any idea what his comprehension level is as far as — where he can catch on to inferences, catch on to plot points, be engaged with some higher-level comprehension questions, and things like that.  

Keep in mind a younger child (for example) listening along with an older child, won’t be expected to catch everything the older child got.  So what matters, to some extent, is what your son is catching.

If he wants/chooses to read things where you doubt he is catching everything, fine, he’s still getting something out of it.

But if you are looking to target things to his comprehension level, then it is really helpful to try to figure out what his comprehension level is, times when you see him show good understanding, times you see him show good engagement, etc.  

Those are things I look for with my son to try to find enjoyable books that will be motivating to him.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

I am sure that improving reading skills such as decoding, grammar, fluency, rate of reading, etc, makes the act of reading easier, and if it is easier, it will be more enjoyable and less work. So I think working on those skills, PeterPan, with the materials you mentioned, is a great idea!

But you said something in one of your posts about working on syntax being a key to better paragraph comprehension. Yes!!

But also perhaps no?

What I mean is that I think the autism part of the problem will still rear its ugly head, just as the NVLD does for my son.

Because with fiction, if you don't feel a connection to the characters, if you don't understand their motivation and root for them or feel sorry for them when things go wrong. If you don't understand the dynamics of the characters' social interactions and how that impacts the plot.........

then why would the book be enjoyable to read?

And added to that are all of things missed, due to trouble with inference. Which just gets to be more of a problem with books above the third or fourth grade reading level.

That's a little side rant we could go into lol. Like if you look at me as an adult I read almost exclusively nonfiction. I'm guessing the fiction advocates will say it's super valuable for the social and then it becomes obvious some people still don't care. You're really opening the bigger can of worms about what it would mean and look like for him to be a lifelong reader and I honestly haven't thought that far. I can try. Any thoughts? It sounds like you're in the can read what needs to read. We were hoping for reading as leisure but you're right we haven't pondered the WHAT.

[Lecka]

I will give you a hint, too — in early chapter books there are really not too many inferences! At least in some.

They are written to be easier.

In some ways they are easier than picture books.  

So on one hand, being able to read some chapter books doesn’t mean everything is great, because they are written to be easier to understand.  

On the other hand, if you are using a lot of picture books that are chosen to target comprehension skills, you may be able to use some chapter books to be easier in some ways.  

That’s what I am seeing to some extent.  It can be nice to have a mix.  

[Lecka]

I think when people don’t care because they don’t have good comprehension, it’s very understandable.

But certainly I want to give my son the best chance to make progress.

Some people also buy into stereotypes about “nobody with autism does this or that” and I think that is very self-defeating.  

[Lecka]

There are also gains that can apply to things like watching a tv or movie, where even if a level that is reached isn’t high enough to read literary fiction, it can still be high enough to provide more enjoyable activities.  

Its one of those things that can be good even if maybe it is always going to be a weaker area.  Maybe it is.  That doesn’t mean it’s not worthwhile or to have a pessimistic attitude. 

And then the flip side is that I see some kids and I think it’s really true, they have come a long way.  Even if it’s not like they’re going to Harvard, they have come a long way, and it’s enough to make a difference in their lives and opportunities.  

[PeterPan]

31 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Aw. To me, saying he doesn't read, means it's hard and/or scary. The Scholastic Branches books are really great for an early 2nd grade level - easy for him and fun. I can vouch for the Boris series and Kung Pow Chicken, both comic book style. And available at the library ?  The Dragon Masters series is also awesome for reading slightly longer paragraphs, still lots of pictures though. I just love them all. 

Ok added some to my cart! 

[PeterPan]

11 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Do you have any idea what his comprehension level is as far as — where he can catch on to inferences, catch on to plot points, be engaged with some higher-level comprehension questions, and things like that.  

Keep in mind a younger child (for example) listening along with an older child, won’t be expected to catch everything the older child got.  So what matters, to some extent, is what your son is catching.

If he wants/chooses to read things where you doubt he is catching everything, fine, he’s still getting something out of it.

But if you are looking to target things to his comprehension level, then it is really helpful to try to figure out what his comprehension level is, times when you see him show good understanding, times you see him show good engagement, etc.  

Those are things I look for with my son to try to find enjoyable books that will be motivating to him.  

He was interacting well with the list of 50 picture books. We went through them once just enjoying and talking about them. He was engaged and making inferences. I think we'll go back through them and tackle them with MW tasks.

[kbutton]

11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I mean, if that pyramid is right, then getting through the syntax should unlock the paragraph level comprehension. That's what that should mean, in theory. And our SLP just keeps saying back up, whatever you want, back up more than you thought you'd need to. That's what she said, sigh.

I think that it's not always an either/or. If there are issues with comprehension in that way, then it will help. If the issue is more about inferencing and other ASD-specific stuff on top of the language, it may not be as big of a key. Obviously, if syntax is an issue it will hold up comprehension, but it's not the only possible thing at the paragraph level. 

11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'm taking a deep breath here and rolling with you. And you know what's so whack? Ds WILL listen to the books on audio. What I haven't done is actually get him onto a progression where he's moving through what he would have typically read for 2nd or 3rd or 4th. That's what I really need to do next. I was looking at all the books dd read in elementary and realizing I need to get aggressive about that, making lists and just saying here goes.

Lecka has mentioned that audio books that are narrated well use a lot of voice inflection to highlight meaning. I noticed that my son does better if someone reads to him, but if you take away the inflection (like when a computer is reading the book, and how some of the services for dyslexia have readers that are not real people), he doesn't like it at all. I think my son responds to the drama/inflection as a comprehension aid. I also agree with what she said in this thread that your son could even really like the background noise. You just don't know right now what's working with audio books.

10 hours ago, Terabith said:

 She does seek out stories on her own, however.  Podcasts, audiobooks, people reading aloud to her.  She loves stories, and I think she is by nature more auditory than visual.  

My DS is like this, and I think living people reading real things, discussing real things, and showing real things adds body language, inflection, etc. that aid comprehension in a big way for my DS. He's always been one that "notices" things even if he doesn't know what they mean, and he's good at picking up things in context. People offer this so much more readily even in little, subtle ways.

Immersion reading here doesn't work. My son liked to listen and read around Kindergarten age, but not after that. He likes to visualize what he's reading and imagine it, and he can't slow his own reading down to match a narrator while picturing things in his head.

7 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

Also, sometimes people read without paying attention, you have to practice paying attention, you may have to work a sentence or two at a time and have him read it aloud if he didn't get the gist of it from reading it silently, then build up to longer groups of sentences, then a paragraph, then groups of paragraphs, etc.

Yup on the attention! And I think that part of attention is going to be tied to knowing what to do with information coming in. I think that your SGM work would help a LOT with that. 

On a side note, you mention wanting to read Muse together. I know you recommended that in the past for my older DS when he was just a bit older based on his high reading scores, but he really preferred Ask from the same publisher. I think it would be a better fit for your son than Muse. You might also find that magazines that publish an entire issue on one theme might be even better. By the time I found Crinkles, it was no longer published, but I did manage to buy a few back issues. They alternate between US states and foreign countries, and then they have articles about the People, Places, and some other stuff, but it's the same kind of stuff they write about for each place. They have hands-on activities, games, and suggested reading for additional background or to go more in-depth. Really well-done magazine. https://www.amazon.com/Crinkles-Magazine-November-December-Number/dp/B0738V2GWN 

And everything Lecka is saying...

[Lecka]

This is also my impression..... that a lot of things just are going to assume a 2nd grade fiction reading level.  Even if it’s non-fiction.  

Non-fiction still has a setting of some kind.  

Non-fiction still has characters.

I don’t think you can opt out of those kinds of things to just do non-fiction, because they are part of non-fiction, and resources you use will probably assume that kids are already connecting to things like that.  

 

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Lecka said:

There are also gains that can apply to things like watching a tv or movie, where even if a level that is reached isn’t high enough to read literary fiction, it can still be high enough to provide more enjoyable activi...

Yup I definitely think it would help with leisure level drama, the arts, etc.

Story does your ds' issues affect his leisure like ability to watch movies with friends?

[Lecka]

I think it’s a great idea to read to/with him with the books where he was engaged and making inferences.  You can start there and experiment with different things.

When you know he is engaged and making inferences with some books you read, then that implies that when he is not, it’s probably too hard and not a behavior issue.  So then it wouldn’t make sense to treat it as a behavior issue.  

Whatever you are doing when he is engaged and making inferences is probably working well to keep him engaged.  

 

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, kbutton said:

On a side note, you mention wanting to read Muse together. I know you recommended that in the past for my older DS when he was just a bit older based on his high reading scores, but he really preferred Ask from the same publisher. I think it would be a better fit for your son than Muse. You might also find that magazines that publish an entire issue on one theme might be even better. By the time I found Crinkles, it was no longer published, but I did manage to buy a few back issues. They alternate between US states and foreign countries, and then they have articles about the People, Places, and some other stuff, but it's the same kind of stuff they write about for each place. They have hands-on activities, games, and suggested reading for additional background or to go more in-depth. Really well-done magazine. https://www.amazon.com/Crinkles-Magazine-November-December-Number/dp/B0738V2GWN 

And everything Lecka is saying...

Yup I think I got ASK at the library as well. I have a pile to look through. Now I'll look at Crinkles hehe.

[Lecka]

It’s huge here for my son to be able to enjoy more movies.  I used to have to take him somewhere, because he would be bored and disruptive whenever we (aka everyone else) wanted to watch a movie together.  

It is so much easier with him *also* engaged in the movie.  

 

[kbutton]

16 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's a little side rant we could go into lol. Like if you look at me as an adult I read almost exclusively nonfiction. I'm guessing the fiction advocates will say it's super valuable for the social and then it becomes obvious some people still don't care. You're really opening the bigger can of worms about what it would mean and look like for him to be a lifelong reader and I honestly haven't thought that far. I can try. Any thoughts? It sounds like you're in the can read what needs to read. We were hoping for reading as leisure but you're right we haven't pondered the WHAT.

I would not assume that non-fiction comprehension is going to be entirely intact if fiction is not--the Story Grammar/Mindwings people put it all together as Lecka is saying below. There is still also a main idea sort of thing that has to emerge from non-fiction, and that is very like a story narrative arc in some ways.

My son has trouble with both fiction and non-fiction, and I think he's going to do better now that we know and have a solid plan. 

I know an adult with an NVLD profile that does NOT read for fun unless it's something kind of inspirational (like people having a near-death experience or something kind of sensational and meant to appeal to a certain profile of people that like sensational things). This person has a seriously hard time following the story plot of a movie. Non-fiction is better, but it's a slog--lots of re-reading. Non-fiction books this person chooses for others are always super repetitive or have topical and simple chapters--they are repetitive to the point that I cannot stand to read them! It's like reading the same chapter re-written 12 times to make a book. This person does not read to grandkids either except if pressured by said grandkid. Then it's usually a Dr. Seuss book or something "inspirational" or a morality tale sort of book. 

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

This is also my impression..... that a lot of things just are going to assume a 2nd grade fiction reading level.  Even if it’s non-fiction.  

Non-fiction still has a setting of some kind.  

Non-fiction still has characters.

I don’t think you can opt out of those kinds of things to just do non-fiction, because they are part of non-fiction, and resources you use will probably assume that kids are already connecting to things like that.  

 

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

Interestingly, my son, who took a lot more work with phonics and spelling and is taking a lot more work with grammar, gets both types of inference on his own.

That's funny, I have observed something similar with my two. The youngest with expressive language delay, with whom I have had to work on syntax more (for speech, it was affecting output more than comprehension), has had inferring come more naturally to him. We had to work on it more with my oldest, but luckily, he picked up pretty quickly and by early 4th he was doing well.

I worked on visualizing with them myself. It's something that again came more naturally to the youngest than the oldest, and youngest is more of a pleasure reader than the oldest.

The oldest needs more motivation. When he gets into a book then he is fine. We will be starting library trips with him and dad in the fall; just the two of them. He has requested to go and just browse the shelves to find authors and plots he would like. Both my husband and I (avid readers/ strong visualizers) often get hooked on specific authors and read most or all their books. I told him that I like his idea.

I also still read with my oldest as well. Many good points in Storygirl's posts! With kids on the spectrum I don't take anything as a given. I still read together with both and still check how well they are following plots, figuring out character motivations, understanding character interactions, etc. That is something I will not be dropping for many years to come. Thankfully, both like reading with me, so I'm taking full advantage.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Lecka said:

It’s huge here for my son to be able to enjoy more movies.  I used to have to take him somewhere, because he would be bored and disruptive whenever we (aka everyone else) wanted to watch a movie together.  

It is so much easier with him *also* engaged in the movie.  

 

I watch movies with both my two separately. I point out things I feel they may have missed, explain things, and have discussions. I work each on his own level and bring out connections they may not have made, often tying into things that are inspiring to them. The other day I watched "Big Hero 6" with my youngest. I know he got quite a bit out of the movie because he watched the whole thing and waited patiently when I had to pause a couple of times, but he got so much more with me pointing out the things he probably would have missed.

 

[Terabith]

As far as ASK vrs Muse, my kids, even my oldest, who has no exceptionalities and is across the board accelerated, have always, always, always STRONGLY preferred the magazines for kids younger than them.  So when they were first/ second grade, I got ASK, but they really still preferred Click, which is for preschoolers.  And at 4th/ 5th/ 6th, they liked ASK over the bigger kid magazines.  And when I taught in the classroom, I saw that pretty strongly across the board with whole classes of kids.  And that's a good point about even nonfiction assuming a second or third grade fiction reading level.  If you aren't getting the meaning clues from inflections and such, it might really tank his comprehension.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

I will give you a hint, too — in early chapter books there are really not too many inferences! At least in some.

They are written to be easier.

In some ways they are easier than picture books.  

So on one hand, being able to read some chapter books doesn’t mean everything is great, because they are written to be easier to understand.  

On the other hand, if you are using a lot of picture books that are chosen to target comprehension skills, you may be able to use some chapter books to be easier in some ways.  

That’s what I am seeing to some extent.  It can be nice to have a mix.  

I have always advocated for that on here. It is how I approached it with both my two, and still do. We have various types/ levels of reading. Picking up social cues, and understanding the effects of cultural backgrounds, time periods, all that is important. So we use books at different levels for different reasons. You just pick what you want to target with each specific book. My 9-year-old picks books for himself as well, and from various genres. When he was younger he focused mainly on nonfiction. Working with the books and resources we have, he now finds titles of his own by looking at books advertised within books from the same author or publisher.  

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

I also like a lot of old readers. If you compare the level of language of a 2nd, 3rd, etc. grade reader of older times to modern day readers of equivalent grade, you can see how much the lexile levels (languages complexity and vocabulary) in the modern day books has gone down.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think it’s a great idea to read to/with him with the books where he was engaged and making inferences.  You can start there and experiment with different things.

When you know he is engaged and making inferences with some books you read, then that implies that when he is not, it’s probably too hard and not a behavior issue.  So then it wouldn’t make sense to treat it as a behavior issue.  

Whatever you are doing when he is engaged and making inferences is probably working well to keep him engaged.  

 

I would not treat it as a behavior issue at all. It could kill any motivation that may be slowly developing. I would encourage, not force.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Guest

[ElizabethB]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

LizB which link would I be looking for in the Bang it out in 2-3 weeks category... I think it's a good point that we could just take decoding off the table that way, just bumping it so high that it's NOT a factor. I like that.

My syllables program.  There are videos if he does well with that, then reading words and doing exercises.  I also have a transcript of the videos if he likes you teaching better than a video. My daughter hates video instruction.  The second time through you could accelerate it.  My students with any underlying problems have all needed to work through it twice.

https://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

[Lecka]

I am late in catching up, I saw your post with the Mindwings blog post.  

I definitely think — work with him at his level as far as comprehension.

It sounds like his decoding level is more advanced, and that is great.  He can do more with decoding and decoding/fluency.  

Prosody/fluency is a different skill set than decoding/fluency.  Believe it or not I have been there with my oldest son (with no autism diagnosis lol) and he had such trouble with phrasing and expression, knowing how to break a long sentence into phrases, etc.  It was so hard for him even when his decoding was good.  Reading dialogue and figuring out who the “he” in “he said” was, and how that “he” would read some dialogue — this was so hard for him to figure out.  Seeing my daughter, it has just been a non-issue for her in the course of her reading development.  

But anyway — meet him where he is.  If he needs to work on syntax, he needs to work on syntax.

But ime there is a lot to do at the discourse level itself. It’s not just — you have the other levels and then discourse level happens.  Discourse level needs a lot of focus, too.  

Some can overlap with other levels, and some can’t, that is something to talk about with the speech therapist probably, since it probably is specific to your son.  

But if you are needing interventions for syntax, you also need them for discourse, too, maybe next or maybe overlapping.  I think a lot can overlap.  I think for anything where you see engagement you can overlap.  

I also think engagement is the main thing for determining an appropriate level.  An appropriate level will just be appropriate.  

Too easy will be boring.  

Too hard will not be engaging.  

I think for listening, look for engagement. 

I think for independent reading, look for prosody.  Prosody is part of fluency, and it is tied with comprehension.

If you know decoding is good, or you’re going to go through some decoding/fluency, then if that is “ruled out” (if that is appropriate) then what you have left is prosody/fluency.

If he’s not reading independently with good prosody, at one level, but at a lower level, he is, then that lower level where his prosody is good, is more his independent reading level (especially if he is also engaged).  

My older son had a big gap between what was engaging to him and what he could read independently.  Until that gap was narrowed he wouldn’t choose to read independently.  Right now he does have a book series he likes.  

My younger son is still engaged by little-kid books that he is able to read, and then I read to him at a level where he can’t read independently but can listen and enjoy with some comprehension supports (or check-ins).  

If you’re seeing a problem with prosody, that IS part of reading fluency.  Reading fluency is part decoding and part prosody.  You can’t ignore it.  You can’t wish his reading level was higher or didn’t take into account his prosody.  It is all included.

If you work on prosody, there is a lot out there with reading fluency and phrasing.  There is stuff for paying attention to punctuation, reading expressively, reading at an appropriate rate, and phrasing.  I did it *all* with my older son and spent about a year on it, even when his fluency/decoding was very good.  (Though I agree it also improved, and was still taking up some of his working memory load, so I do agree with Elizabeth B on the value of cementing decoding/fluency.). 

But it does all go together.  

You can expect different levels for independent reading with good prosody, listening with good comprehension, and listening with an ability to answer some factual comprehension questions but not higher-level comprehension questions.  

They are all important and provide their own value. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Lecka