When to Start Algebra

[NewIma]

I am really confused by the the differences in when people start algebra. When I graduated 18 years ago it was normal to take algebra in 9th grade, and now in Virginia a lot of kids are starting Algebra in 6th or 7th?!?!? On the boards here people seem to be starting algebra in 7th or 8th. Why has there been such a huge shift? 

 

We have been using Math in Focus, which is a common core program, for 4 years and LOVE it. Next year my daughter will be in 6th and will move to MIF Course 1. If she completes the 3 courses as they are designed she would do Algebra 1 in 9th Grade. How much of a disadvantage would I be putting my dd at with college admissions if we follow that path? Is that totally out of bounds? And how can it be out of bounds if Math in Focus is a common core program? 

 

I don't want to change a curriculum that is working so well just to keep up with the Jones, but I want to help dd be properly prepared. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Don't change a curriculum that is working well.  Frankly, I think we are doing a disservice to a lot of kids by pushing Algebra to younger and younger ages when many may not be developmentally ready.  They can internalize that they are bad at math when they are perfectly capable.  That being said, there ARE kids that are ready for Algebra in 6th or 7th and they absolutely should be given the opportunity to do so if that meets their interests/needs.  Depends on the kid.

 

Mostly I think the push is from the heavy STEM bent now.  Kids that want to be competitive in a STEM field usually do better (if applying to competitive colleges especially) if they finish at least Pre-Calc by 12th grade and hopefully Calculus.  At least that is what a lot of people feel is needed.  I do not think this is a necessary or desired or even achievable path for all students, though.  Not by a long shot.  I'm sure there are others that will disagree, though.

 

 

[HomeAgain]

Don't worry about it.  I wanted ds19 to take algebra in 8th, but it was a failure.  He ended up acing the course in 9th when he was more settled, and was motivated enough to take an extra math in high school (taking geometry and algebra 2 nearly concurrently, starting one in the summer and one in the fall).  His transcript was fine - he knew he wanted a math heavy college program so that's why he took the extra.  If he was going into a different field it wouldn't have mattered so much.  Colleges accepted him without a problem.

[CAtoVA]

Back in the day  (HA) in CA I took Algebra in the 8th grade as a "pilot" program for gifted kids. My parents were thrilled that I had been "selected" and ignored the fact that I was not truly ready for the class. I had skipped 2nd grade earlier and had a late spring birthday so I was already young for the grade. I also was woefully unprepared as I had had very poor math instruction up until that point. I struggled through Algebra I earning low B's and high C's and left the course believing I was terrible in math. Now, years later,  when I was a graduate student, I spent a lot of time researching how best to teach math, Asian math programs, etc. I taught myself Algebra as an adult and am still amazed at the math malpractice perpetrated on me and others (probably still being perpetrated.....)

 

Fast forward to today and my 8th grade DS is doing Algebra I with me and actually is ready for the class. He has had two years of pre-Algebra and his last year of Pre-Algebra he earned a final grade of 96% so I judged him ready to move on. He does still struggle with some of the more abstract concepts in Algebra I but I figure we can take our time and work through the summer if need be (or even into next year—9th grade—as I have the time to do that). DS is a capable math student but dislikes math and has math anxiety so I slow down where I need to, reinforce where and when I need to, etc., to build his confidence and skills. I don't stress him or me about having to finish the entire Algebra I curriculum by the end of 8th grade. There are no "labels" in my homeschool and hopefully my DS won't ever believe he is "bad" at math because he may not understand something at a certain point in time or may not be developmentally ready for something yet.

 

I have seen the pressure in schools to put students in Algebra I at earlier and earlier ages and think it's another symptom of the education system pushing and pushing without yielding any better results than previous generations have achieved (maybe partly because the motivations are skewed and not really about education ??? idk). But then, again, given the early grade age cut off dates in many states and the "red shirting" school parents do for many reasons, the actual age of a 7th grader often is the age of a typical 8th grader about twenty years ago, so maybe the "early" algebra just looks that way and is a reflection of kids being old for their grades and needing extra challenge. Again, idk. Developmentally, probably the majority of kids are still ready for algebra in the 9th grade and probably some smaller number are ready to try in 8th grade (if the foundation has been laid down). A pretty small number may be ready in 6th-7th grade and a similarly small number not until 10th grade or beyond. From my experiences I think it depends on the student's comfort level with the subject, prior math preparation, and ability to handle ambiguity and abstractness (mental maturity). You as the homeschooling parent are the best judge of this for your own child. It also depends on the teacher's ability to teach kids the subject and not just  teach the content. I never forgot being that kid who didn't understand and felt "at sea." Consequently, I work at understanding everything I am supposed to teach my DS in Algebra I and come "armed" with many strategies to teach him because sometimes the first approach hits a wall. Many math teachers know math but are DISMAL  math teachers (I could get into this more but I won't : ) ). Algebra I is the foundational gateway course for higher level math—our kids deserve a GREAT experience whenever they take the class.

 

As many of my HS'ing friends remind me if (when) I start feeling anxious about something curriculum related, the beauty of homeschooling is you get to make the decisions, you know your child best, you can adjust where you need, start and stop anything as you need, etc. Do what your family thinks is best for your family and you will be fine : ).

Edited March 8, 2018 by chiefcookandbottlewasher

[NewIma]

Thank you so much for your replies.  My gut is that building a strong foundation is the most important thing, but this cultural belief that earlier is better is anxiety provoking.  I am going to try to trust my gut and not worry too much. LOL 

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank you so much for your replies.  My gut is that building a strong foundation is the most important thing, but this cultural belief that earlier is better is anxiety provoking.  I am going to try to trust my gut and not worry too much. LOL 

It really CAN be anxiety provoking.  And harmful for us AND our kids.  Trust your gut.  Earlier is not inherently better and can absolutely be worse.  Go at the pace of your child.  Teach the child in front of you, not the unknown faceless masses out there...

 

:grouphug:

[camino]

I live in Northern Virginia (Fairfax County) and the advanced track here has kids doing Algebra in 7th. I have heard that occasionally kids start earlier but it is rare enough that I do not know one child personally who has done that. Most children coming out of the Advanced Academic Program in Elementary School do Algebra in 7th or 8th. If anything, there is a push from teachers to make kids slow down in middle school. The requirements to be allowed to take Algebra in 7th are actually extremely high.  So it really is not that different from before.

 

That said, I constantly hear my son's friends saying that they did "Algebra" in their sixth grade classroom and, when I ask, it is clear that they got a little taste of algebra, in other words... a tiny bit of pre-algebra.

 

 

[Sarah0000]

I also took Algebra in eighth grade back when that was just for the gifted kids. It was easy enough for me and I probably could have done it even earlier. I completed Calculus I my senior year of high school and always got A's.

 

However, when I went to university I tested into precalculus. I don't think the age I started algebra had anything to do with this, but rather the quality of education.

[scbusf]

I took Algebra 1 in the 8th grade, also. I made it to Calculus in 12th grade. I always got As in math, and I teach math at the college level now, so it all worked out.

 

I currently have a 6th grader who is excellent at math - makes sense because his dad is a computer programmer and I'm a math professor!!! Anyway, he was getting bored in math, so I started him in Algebra this year. HOWEVER, we have been going very slowly and it will take us at least 2 years to get through it. Right now, we are taking a step back and focusing on some fraction work. Long story, but we jumped around math curriculum with him, and fractions didn't get covered enough.

 

I do think it depends on what path the student wants to take - if they know. I tend to want my kids to take things slowly and just be kids - but then all of my kids pick up on things quickly and get bored. 

[Lecka]

This is what I see in public school.  

 

Algebra I in 7th grade is very, very, very advanced. These kids are very, exceptionally advanced in math.

 

More kids are taking Algebra I in 8th grade, but it is still advanced.  Strong math students who are not as committed as math students still take Algebra I in 9th grade.  

 

I think it depends a lot on region.  It comes across like in other parts of the country the math level is shifted down a year.  This is what is the case locally for me.  

 

What is a little strange is that (to me) a LOT of kids are covering pre-Algebra in 6th grade, common core math seems to cover pre-Algebra in 6th grade.  But then there are various Algebra and Geometry topics in 7th and 8th grade, without necessarily moving on to "Algebra I."  

 

I agree with pp, that there is a lot of study of Algebra content/topics without it meaning that kids are taking Algebra I. 

 

It's very different than the math sequence I had in middle school.  Some things that I never saw until Algebra I (in 8th grade for me) have been covered in 6th grade and 7th grade, but my son (a 7th grader) is on track for Algebra I in 9th grade.  It's just different.  Overall it seems like they have made regular middle school math harder without having kids start Algebra I before 9th grade.  

 

But my impression is that my son will have covered about half of the content of my 8th grade Algebra I class, before he gets to Algebra I in 9th grade.  Plus he will cover a big chunk of my 9th grade Geometry class while he is in 7th and 8th grade, while he is on track to take Geometry in 10th grade.  

 

Edit:  and my impression is that his 9th grade Algebra I and 10th grade Geometry, will be more in-depth than my 8th grade Algebra and 9th grade Geometry were.  

Edited March 8, 2018 by Lecka

[Sneezyone]

This is what I see in public school.

 

Algebra I in 7th grade is very, very, very advanced. These kids are very, exceptionally advanced in math.

 

More kids are taking Algebra I in 8th grade, but it is still advanced. Strong math students who are not as committed as math students still take Algebra I in 9th grade.

 

I think it depends a lot on region. It comes across like in other parts of the country the math level is shifted down a year. This is what is the case locally for me.

 

What is a little strange is that (to me) a LOT of kids are covering pre-Algebra in 6th grade, common core math seems to cover pre-Algebra in 6th grade. But then there are various Algebra and Geometry topics in 7th and 8th grade, without necessarily moving on to "Algebra I."

 

I agree with pp, that there is a lot of study of Algebra content/topics without it meaning that kids are taking Algebra I.

 

It's very different than the math sequence I had in middle school. Some things that I never saw until Algebra I (in 8th grade for me) have been covered in 6th grade and 7th grade, but my son (a 7th grader) is on track for Algebra I in 9th grade. It's just different. Overall it seems like they have made regular middle school math harder without having kids start Algebra I before 9th grade.

 

But my impression is that my son will have covered about half of the content of my 8th grade Algebra I class, before he gets to Algebra I in 9th grade. Plus he will cover a big chunk of my 9th grade Geometry class while he is in 7th and 8th grade, while he is on track to take Geometry in 10th grade.

This. Common Core Algebra 1 covers a lot of Algebra 2 topics and assumes mastery of a lot of Algebra 1 topics. A child doing CC math 6-8 successfully will cover the first half of Algebra 1 before they ever take an official ‘Algebra’ class.

[Lecka]

As a follow-up, I took Algebra I in 8th grade, and at first I was pretty disappointed for my son not to be on track to take Algebra I in 8th grade.  But now that I see more of what the curriculum is, he is not doing the same thing I did, but they are covering a lot of math.  It's not just a repeat of 6th grade math, in 7th grade and 8th grade.  When I was in middle school, if you didn't take Algebra I in 8th grade it seemed to be just another year of the same.  It's not that way for my son, he is definitely moving ahead and doing more/harder math topics.  It's just not going to be Algebra I in 8th grade.  

[wapiti]

It depends entirely on the student.  9th grade is still typical for algebra 1.  8th grade is advanced.  7th or earlier is usually within gifted programming of some kind.

 

If the student is typical, then algebra 1 in 9th, finishing high school with precalc in 12th, is perfectly fine.  On the other hand, if the student is excels in math and gets bored with taking a long time to plod through middle school math, the typical pace may not be a good fit, in which case consider some combination of faster pace and depth that puts the student in algebra 1 no later than 8th.  Boredom and lack of intellectual stretching are potential big disadvantages to advancing at a pace that is too slow for the particular student and can be a recipe for underachievement.  (eta, it is also possible to be at the right pace but bored due to a program that is not a great fit for depth or other reasons)

 

Fit the curriculum to the student, not the other way around.

Edited March 8, 2018 by wapiti

[Farrar]

I actually just went through this with my kid, an 8th grader, who is convinced that he's "way behind" in math because a couple of his schooled friends are in Geometry for 8th grade. Sigh. In the state where his friends live, I found a statistic that only about a third of students start high school already having a high school math credit, which would include algebra. The last major study I could find had that only just under half of American 8th graders are taking Algebra I or higher. That was about five years ago, so a hot minute before Common Core. The conclusion of the study, which was a Brookings study, was that comparing the number of students taking algebra to math scores, it looks like the algebra they're getting is likely watered down overall.

 

I know that the CC puts algebra topics earlier and spreads them out through middle school math. I don't know if it's really improving things or not. A lot of students get to college - especially community colleges and lower tier state schools - not able to pass elementary algebra. That means they get all the way through high school not having mastered algebra. So... yeah. I guess in a few years we'll see if CC made a difference, but the last thing I saw about this was something a prof friend of mine posted about how the same trends - students not really prepared for the college classroom - are still continuing despite whatever CC has done to high schools so far.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Farrar

[pebblesjns]

I graduated in 2001 and I took Algebra 1 in 7th grade. I didn't realize that it was that advanced. I had no problems in the course and continued on up through Calculus in high school (after skipping half of my 8th grade year and winding up in 9th grade). My son is 8 right now, but takes after us in his mathy-ness. He will probably start in pre-algebra by next school year. I know he is abnormal, though. My husband took Algebra 1 in 8th grade. So the current pace doesn't seem too different from what it was back then.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Lecka]

I don’t think that the group of kids taking Algebra very early, and the group of kids struggling in community college classes, are the same kids.

 

I think there are some problems I see at my son’s school and I do think the kids who aren’t doing well in his class right now may continue on the same way or get tracked into classes that are aimed at passing exit exams.

 

But those aren’t the kids who are in advanced math this year.

 

For the kids in my son’s class who are struggling I’m not sure how much it is related to the curriculum. Maybe not very much.

[Sneezyone]

I don’t think that the group of kids taking Algebra very early, and the group of kids struggling in community college classes, are the same kids.

 

I think there are some problems I see at my son’s school and I do think the kids who aren’t doing well in his class right now may continue on the same way or get tracked into classes that are aimed at passing exit exams.

 

But those aren’t the kids who are in advanced math this year.

 

For the kids in my son’s class who are struggling I’m not sure how much it is related to the curriculum. Maybe not very much.

This has been our experience too. Barring Algebra for all-type initiatives, kids taking it early are getting a version as strong if not stronger than the one I got 30 years ago and they’ll be well past remedial college math by HS graduation. DD is in a CC Math 7 class that is functionally pre-Algebra. The strugglers (and there are many) just aren’t ready yet. DoDEA, for example, didn’t even start CC math until last year. The transition is still in progress so there will be a whole lot of kids with a hodgepodge of math experiences, especially as some states begin to retreat. Edited March 9, 2018 by Sneezyone

[Lecka]

We are military, too. I’m not positive on this, but I think there are two tracks for cc in middle school, either integrating geometry or not (or something). We live in a state (because here it’s state-wide) that does this integrated geometry in middle school I think. Where we moved from I don’t think they did the integrated geometry, they do something else but it’s still cc (I think they did a more traditional order like I’m more familiar with).

 

I don’t want any of my kids to move in 7th/8th grade, though.

 

We did a mid-year move while my son was in 6th grade and I thought everything was smooth, then this year it turns out he missed negative numbers; he missed it at both schools. He caught up on it and it’s worked out fine, but I don’t want to do that with more topics.

 

My kids’ district here is mostly kids living in on-post housing (I’ve heard 80% of the district comes from on-post housing) and there is a real mix of kids who are engaged students and do their homework, and kids who are checked out on some level and aren’t doing much homework.

 

I don’t think his math teacher this year is very good, but there are options for my son to get tutoring in study hall or after school, that he does do. I help him some but that is only for if he is desperate, he doesn’t want to be helped by me right now.

 

But he has some friends who are not doing their homework and I know their parents and they are making very reasonable efforts, I don’t know what the answer is for kids who aren’t doing their homework and don’t take advantage of tutoring when it’s available. It is frustrating and I don’t really have anything to blame, I don’t think parents or the school are messing things up! But something isn’t going right for these kids, and they are kids I like. I don’t know.

 

It’s new to us, I don’t know if it’s the move or if this is a middle school thing.

 

Edit: ironically I got him Math Mammoth pre-algebra and he likes the instruction in it, if he can figure things out with MM and not have to ask for help, that is his strong preference. It is true the curriculum doesn’t have that kind of explanation, but there are internet videos I think are decent that my son has watched here and there that have worked for him, too.

 

And I am able to help him, but he doesn’t want my help. He would rather be helped some other way!

 

But he is willing to do the work and he does want to do well in math, and that seems so random right now, he could just as easily not care about it at all.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Lecka