................... Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) So I guess as is typical with many teenagers, my daughter does not want my input. She is usually fairly happy to receive correction and input from others but seems much more reluctant with me. With her co-op classes, they are all self contained and do not require mid-week oversight other than occasionally checking in or grading lab reports and Science tests using a rubric - all very objective grading work which she accepts. I am no longer teaching her anything. We outsourced math last year because of the constant extreme struggle with rudeness and impatience. Due to her being quite gifted in math and me being a very methodical thinker, I assumed the Math struggle was a math thing. But apparently it's a mom-teen relationship thing as well. Her co-op English class requires copious amounts of essays which ideally the parents should be helping with the revising process. My daughter has gotten sloppier over the semester and her recent essays needed a bit more correction, which I lovingly and patiently am glad to help with. I do not/did not tell her HOW to fix every single detail. I was, as any teacher would, doing proofreading marks, showing where run-ons were, and one paragraph was so disorganized that it was almost unintelligible. As I was giving some general ideas on how to fix it my daughter became quite rude. So clearly we have a heart issue that needs love and prayer and a little talking about...which I have been working with and dealing with. BUT maybe it might be actually better for her as far as her writing and academic life, if I can somehow bow out of doing her revising with her. Frankly, she's tired of me. She is not extremely disrespectful but we are often/always together and I've taught her for 8 years of her life as everything- mom, teacher, etc. While I am disappointed that she can't work with me, I also understand it. I would have personally not been able to handle my mom being my teacher at her age. Even for one half of one subject. SO i don't think it's necessarily fair or altogether necessary for me to do it with her. How harmful would it be if I just said, "Hey you know what since you don't like my corrections, you can do the revising yourself...." I believe that her writing would slowly get worse and worse, since her teachers only grade the final paper. They do not have the time to explain during the co-op how to re-work, revise or make it smoother. She has two or three more years at home and then plans to start out at COmmunity College and then transfer to University for a Math for Teaching degree. Not lots of writing involved. I had thought of her finding someone to scan/email her papers to, but it would not be practical at all. In the past those situations have completely failed within weeks. People just don't keep commitments even when they're being paid. Edited to be more polite to my dear dd :) Edited February 1, 2018 by Calming Tea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 You could have her use Grammerly for mechanics. The free version catches a lot of basic stuff, and the "pay" version catches more advanced errors. There are also pay services for writing/editing (I think Write Shop allows you to get instructor feedback on a paper you are doing for an outside class...it's been awhile since I looked at it, but I think you can even try it out for just a month or 6 weeks to work through one paper and see how it goes. You can also use them for all the writing/instructing/feedback etc... I have a friend who thinks it's well worth it for her boys.) Bravewriter also has online classes where you get feedback from the instructor. Essentials in Writing has grading...I haven't looked to see if they give a lot of feedback, but that could be worth checking out. But if you can't afford something outside, use the free Grammerly for mechanics and then change up your home approach. I had an instructor in college who *only* made positive comments. He wrote in green ink on our papers, and only told us what he liked or what knocked his socks off. He always found something to encourage. Students worked really hard for him because they liked that approach. If something was unclear, he asked a question to try to understand, rather than telling us it wasn't clear, etc... After several months of *only* focusing on things she did well, then maybe consider whether you can talk about things to improve--or even ask her. "Is it helpful for me to only focus on what you did well, or would you like me to occasionally mention something you could improve?" (I actually ask my college students specifically what kind of feedback they want if they have me read something.) But if you do go back to mentioning things to improve, always have many more things to encourage, and only 1 or 2 things to improve. If you try to focus on everything at once and creating a perfect paper, kids will often shut down. Change up the dynamic and see how it goes. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Hmmm...I am off to check out Grammarly and the Write Shop service, and see if they do the service with students not using their program... If all else fails, maybe you are right....I could just say what I loved and ask gentle questions about confusing parts. What a nice way to teach... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 The thing is, the teacher goes over the assignment in great detail, and adds weekly checklists to add different add-ons each week, building on the previous one the way IEW does. She also grades the final paper, and of course notes corrections as she's grading. It's only the mid-week revising and talking over revisions that the teacher doesn't do... SO I think Grammerly will help a lot. I am looking for a Revise your Own Paper checklist and I think her teacher may actually have given her one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I have a kid who doesn't want any of my editing or advice for his papers. Let's just say his writing teacher online has been so gracious in her responses to his lack of mechanics ;-) he's repeating a course this spring b/c of his unwillingness to let me or anyone proofread. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 ^^ I can believe that 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domesticidyll Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 As an alternative to only positive comments, would she be willing to work with you on just one aspect of each paper? Either take one paragraph and rearrange it OR go through and identify run on sentences OR have her write a clear thesis statement. It can be really overwhelming to focus everywhere at once. I find kids have much more stamina if there is only one job to worry about. Also, I think it can help to think of editing more as getting comfortable with the tools in the toolbox than as fixing a particular paper. Let's work on identifying run-on sentences. Let's go through and flag candidates... What sentences in this paragraph are long enough to warrant a second look? Ok, that one's good. Nice job! This one needs a break somewhere. Where does the break go? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 The thing is, the teacher goes over the assignment in great detail, and adds weekly checklists to add different add-ons each week, building on the previous one the way IEW does. She also grades the final paper, and of course notes corrections as she's grading. It's only the mid-week revising and talking over revisions that the teacher doesn't do... SO I think Grammerly will help a lot. I am looking for a Revise your Own Paper checklist and I think her teacher may actually have given her one. If I had confidence that the teacher would hold the paper to a high enough standard and give her the grade it deserved, I would let her experience the consequence of what her work deserves without your editing advice. (Just my .02) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 (edited) Yeah, don't be revising her papers like that. She's in a class with a teacher. Hand her the software (Inspiration is what I used with my dd) and website and walk away. If she wants your help, she can ask. If she doesn't, her grade can go down. This is where you cut the apron strings and let them figure out for themselves how to ask for help, how to use their resources. If you DON'T do that, she has to go through that learning curve in college. Let it go, let her have the chance to fail. Let her figure it out. Edited February 3, 2018 by PeterPan 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I wish it were easier to receive constructive feedback, but I struggle with it even as an adult. (Just ask my Dh!) She's still young. I'd like to encourage you to try to find an outside class that is affordable for you that specifically teaches those revising skills and what to look for when editing. It might also include more advance essay techniques. What that class is, I don't know because affordability and what you have available locally may differ. It has been tough to find writing classes that offer detailed and helpful feedback. My oldest won't write well for me, but she will for others. She also takes my feedback with good grace, sometimes deciding to leave her work as-is, but mostly putting in the time to improve it. So, definitely a different battle here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosika Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Would she be open to, and able to find, peer editing? Just a quick meet at a coffee shop, spend maybe 30 minutes with one or more peers going over each others' papers? This is what my third son does. My older two had no problems with me editing their work, SO LONG AS I didn't go overboard as I'm wont to do. I had to really limit myself to the important grammatical and formatting things and not overly critique the content. I had to ease up. I wish you had a reliable adult. I'm the go-to adult for one of my son's friends, who attends the local private school. I work with him and also keep in regular touch with his teacher (who has since referred me to some of her other students, which has turned into a nice side hustle!) This student cannot work with his own mother, which is funny since she and I went to the same schools and have the same critiques and criticisms for his papers. When it comes from me he's just more receptive to it. It sounds like you've tried this before but have been let down by unreliable people. Is there a barter situation you could do, to keep people more accountable and reliable? I used to tutor another friend's child before dinner, which my kids and I were always invited to stay for. That was a sweet deal for me! LOL Might the teacher be open to pre-grading your daughter's work? The teacher at my son's friend's school has a standing offer to look over anything that is turned in early - if they want feedback (which is not officially graded since it's being submitted early), they just have to give her 24 hours turnaround time. That translates to 2-3 days early if they want to be able to fix any feedback she gives. I'm not sure if that works with the schedule of your daughter's class, but it may be worth asking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Yeah, don't be revising her papers like that. She's in a class with a teacher. Hand her the software (Inspiration is what I used with my dd) and website and walk away. If she wants your help, she can ask. If she doesn't, her grade can go down. This is where you cut the apron strings and let them figure out for themselves how to ask for help, how to use their resources. If you DON'T do that, she has to go through that learning curve in college. Let it go, let her have the chance to fail. Let her figure it out. I sort of agree with this and sort of don't. In a traditional classroom where the student has English 5 days a week, then the teacher is presumably going over the editing with the students. I remember back in the olden days when I was young, that we'd turn in an outline for teacher review, then a rough draft for teacher review, and then the final draft. From what the OP said, it sounds like the coop meets maybe once or twice a week. The material is taught, but the teacher's don't provide feedback or review until the final draft is turned in and then the student is given a final grade. The outline/rough draft feedback and review is meant to come from the parents. If the student is refusing to receive the help from the parent, then yes...she's sort of going to have to fail on her own. However, as the parent and supervisor of the child's education, I would not find that acceptable. The student isn't far-seeing enough to understand that she will regress in her writing and is causing serious problems for herself. It's the same as if she wanted to eat lollipops for every meal. She could and end up with health problems, but that's not really acceptable. Would she be open to, and able to find, peer editing? Just a quick meet at a coffee shop, spend maybe 30 minutes with one or more peers going over each others' papers? This is what my third son does. My older two had no problems with me editing their work, SO LONG AS I didn't go overboard as I'm wont to do. I had to really limit myself to the important grammatical and formatting things and not overly critique the content. I had to ease up. Might the teacher be open to pre-grading your daughter's work? The teacher at my son's friend's school has a standing offer to look over anything that is turned in early - if they want feedback (which is not officially graded since it's being submitted early), they just have to give her 24 hours turnaround time. That translates to 2-3 days early if they want to be able to fix any feedback she gives. I'm not sure if that works with the schedule of your daughter's class, but it may be worth asking. I would start with asking the teacher if she is willing to help your daughter with a rough draft. Would she be willing to do what you do--pointing out the grammatical errors and jotting down clarifying questions in parts that are confusing? If not, then peer review. And I like the other options of trying the software for grammatical issues and finding out if any writing programs out there offer feedback services for payment. If none of those pan out, then I suppose you could let her fail and suffer the consequences, but that would be my last resort until she hits college age. I feel that for a minor being homeschooled, it's up to the parent to find a solution to the problem that goes beyond letting the student figure it out for herself, unless you've done all you can and that's the last resort. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Check your local library's online services. Ours has all kinds of free online tutoring, including both live tutors and a writing lab. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) nm Edited February 7, 2018 by rozes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) I guess dh and I are from the dinosaur days. ;) When we were assigned papers to write in K-12 and in college, we wrote the paper and turned it in ... for a (final) grade. No teacher reviews or student critiques or anything remotely similar. Also, no extended deadlines or anything remotely similar there either. I know it's totally different now because my college kids tell me stuff. And as they tell me all this stuff, all I can do is sit there wondering how I ever made it through school. lol It was the 80s. Big hair, big shoulder pads, and teachers checked the rough drafts. Then again, it was only in English class that they checked the rough drafts. For other papers in other classes (a science paper on planets or a social studies paper on J. P. Morgan), it was just the final draft. But for English, where the purpose of the class was to teach us how to write papers step-by-step, the teachers would check each step. Though, most of our English papers were creative writing...and no, they didn’t check the rough drafts for creative writing papers. You’re making me think back 30 years, but now that I think about it, we never wrote a single persuasive essay until 11th grade and then it was a small one and the teacher checked everything we did along the way. We had the big research/persuasive project in 12th grade that was spread out over a couple of months and the teacher gave us feedback on every step of the way, and then had us do peer review as well on the rough drafts. Nowadays, they teach kids all sorts of 5 paragraph persuasive essays from elementary ages. I didn’t learn anything remotely like that until 11th grade. Everything is different now. So, maybe it’s normal for the teacher to only get the final draft nowadays because they’ve been taught different forms of writing sooner than I was. I took Eng 101 and Eng 102 when I was 32 and 33 years old (12 and 13 years ago) and it was a final draft only to the professor. I don’t know about extended deadlines. My husband teaches at a community college and he never extends deadlines for anything. I suppose if a student had a true emergency (hospital sickness, funeral) he would, but so far none of the requests for an extension have ever been granted. Edited February 7, 2018 by Garga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodGrief Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Is it a requirement of the co-op that parents participate in editing through the week? If not, I probably would back off, particularly if the feedback is not well received, assuming you are confident that the instruction there is good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosika Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 nm I know what you (meant)! LOL I think things are more like a pressure cooker these days, because I remember things the way you do and my college aged kids tell me the same that yours are telling you. It reminds me of the joke where a child tells his parent that school was easier for (the parent) because there was less history to learn in the "old days" :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 UPDATE: My dd installed the basic Grammar.ly and loved it sooo much she asked to buy the complete version, so I forked out the cash. She wanted to show me how great it is, so I sat with her while she used it to go through the last essay and, I must say, I am impressed! It caught almost everything that I saw, and then some. It caught run-ons. it caught improper voice/parallel structure problems...it is very impressive. I think this is a step in the right direction.... The teacher started out really editing and going through writing assignments, but as the year went on that sort of drifted away. That could be because my dd's papers are pretty "clean" and it doesn't seem like she needs a whole lot of writing instruction. So I will see what happens with the next few papers and make sure the teacher is really going over them carefully. Since it does only meet once per week, I am concerned that my dd really continues to hone her own writing and editing skills, so I'll keep an eye on the situation. BUT I think Grammarly might be all she needed... THANK YOU! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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