What would you consider...

[Mommyof1]

Minimal verses maximum standards for homeschooling. Idea came up from the other thread. Lets say min/max for elementary to start.

[Carol in Cal.]

What is the minimum standard for the public schools?

 

I'd start with that.

Oh wait, they don't have actual standards for education, just for teaching.  They are not really responsible for outcomes.  

 

But wait, we can still require ourselves to teach kids to a specific level.

 

But wait, this is CA, where actual homeschooling is illegal.  Here, you have to affiliate with a school, or call yourself a private school to homeschool.  And the public school teachers' union is always trying to put the homeschooling schools out of business or put requirements on private school homeschoolers, for job security reason wrapped up in the kind of hypocritical self-righteousness that can only invoke fury, contempt, or mockery.

 

So any requirement we put on ourselves here will be the opening wedge of a bitter, lying, brutal fight to make it more onerous.  And again, any requirement on us for actual education will not apply to the public schools.  Because, you know, how can they be held responsible for outcomes?  All they can do is teach and hope for the best.

 

And then, there are those here who consider teaching creation or traditional morals or in languages other than English to constitute educational neglect and/or hate criminality.  Even though there are plenty of parochial school that do that, popular ones.  But no, the laws about this would only effect homeschoolers.  Because we are an easier target.

 

This is what makes it so hard.  This is why I hardly ever enter these conversations, and why I oppose anything except vague instructional requirements; despite absolutely deploring educational neglect.

 

Let the public schools commit to the standards they want from us.  Let them say, we will not let any child graduate from elementary school without being able to read fluently or do arithmetic or write summaries or read a map.  Then we can talk.  

[Daria]

What is the minimum standard for the public schools?

 

I'd start with that.

Oh wait, they don't have actual standards for education, just for teaching.  They are not really responsible for outcomes.  

 

 

 

Schools have standards for learning, not just for teaching, and schools are held responsible for outcomes through standardized testing.  I'm wondering if you've been under a rock and missed NCLB, Common Core and ESSA. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Schools have standards for learning, not just for teaching, and schools are held responsible for outcomes through standardized testing.  I'm wondering if you've ... missed NCLB, Common Core and ESSA. 

Schools are not responsible for individual outcomes, only for collective ones; and they game that A LOT. 

 

I have not been impressed with the way these initiatives have played out here.  Locally when NCLB came in, my neighborhood elementary school started to teach test taking skills for half a day per week in January and did this until the testing was finished in the late spring.  That means that 10% of the students' time was diverted from learning or fun to learning to take and hopefully excel on tests.  Not impressive compared with, say, teaching content so that the kids could float through the testing, or teaching thinking skills, or encouraging creative thinking and imaginary play, which presumably was what was supposed to happen.  Furthermore, CA, out of step with all but one other state in the country, implemented testing down to the second grade level.  Meaning that kids who couldn't yet read well enough to take multiple choice tests, which is not uncommon at that age, were defined as failures.  At age seven.  So a lot of parents opted their non-reading kids out of the tests, which artificially improved the school scores, and some teachers read the questions and answers to the classes so the kids could test well.

 

Additionally, there is ample evidence from other states that instead of improving the high school education of underachieving kids, in many areas the NCLB testing resulted in kids being pressured to drop out of high school so that the collective test scores would improve.

 

Common Core has made it harder for the kids to learn arithmetic, generally, and has reduced their exposure to fiction, to their detriment.

 

And the CA math standards that tried to force algebra into 8th grade have result in scads of kids taking it twice or even three times.

 

Again I repeat my conclusion, which you may not have read, "Let the public schools commit to the standards they want from us.  Let them say, we will not let *any child* graduate from elementary school without being able to read fluently or do arithmetic or write summaries or read a map.  Then we can talk."

Edited October 23, 2017 by Carol in Cal.

[PeterPan]

Might need to explain who is making the standards and to whom they apply. The state can have a vested interest in the well-being of the child and establish standards and regulations. The parents have their own, and then of course those can be for all the dimensions (academic, personal, etc.). 

 

I assume you mean state standards. Our state requires homeschoolers to test above the 25th percentile OR have a signed statement from an assessor who has done a portfolio review stating the dc is performing at their ability level.

 

I think the laws in our state are reasonable, unlike some much higher regulation states, and it seems to me they would be adequate to catch some of the problems that are occurring in states with no regulations.

[PeterPan]

...Furthermore, CA, out of step with all but one other state in the country, implemented testing down to the second grade level.  Meaning that kids who couldn't yet read well enough to take multiple choice tests, which is not uncommon at that age, were defined as failures.  At age seven....  

 

Our state tests in the first grading period of KINDERGARTEN and already, as early as that, marks kids behind and puts them in intervention. 

 

I did multiple choice standardized testing on my ds last year. I'm trying to remember how it worked out. He's dyslexic. He squeaked by fine. I think there were a lot of caveats, like maybe the tester read the sample and the questions and all he had to do was choose the answer. I don't know, worked out fine. And when I worked in K5 years ago (like 20+ years ago, lol), we did standardized testing with the ITBS and it was fine. 

 

But I hear you on the stress and the total mis-focus on testing instead of teaching. Of course, with them STILL using reading methods that don't work, what does it matter if they teach a little more? I mean, seriously, let's be honest. More hours of the same failing methods wouldn't yield better outcomes.

[Carol in Cal.]

Our state tests in the first grading period of KINDERGARTEN and already, as early as that, marks kids behind and puts them in intervention. 

 

 

Yes, it has gotten worse here since the early days of NCLB as well.

But when we started testing second graders formally, there was only one other state that did so, which I believe was Mississippi. 

We did evaluations of younger kids as well, but they weren't as formal and high pressure as State!  Testing!

[Petrichor]

Well, that dissolved quickly...

[Petrichor]

In my homeschool, I have minimum teaching standards. I wouldn't want to impose my standards on a family or children that learn differently than my child does.

 

My eldest is a 3rd grader, so I can't speak for older grades. 

 

Let me set a scale for a particular day: poor, fair, good, excellent.

 

Poor: Maybe we did something that "counts" as english or math. Like baking a cake. Or counting by 4s. Or writing an apology letter. But we didn't do any schoolwork from the books that I consider to be our curriculum.

 

Fair: We did at least some of the English, some of the Math, and touched on some of our additional subjects, but we got at least part of a lesson done in each English and Math from the books I consider to be our curriculum. 

 

Good: We did English spelling/phonics and comprehension. We may have done grammar too. Math lesson got done completely. Got at least a few other subjects completely done too. If this amount of work got done, and we went for a field trip that day, I consider it as excellent a day as the below.

 

Excellent: We got through all of the lessons of all of our planned subjects for the day. If we got though all of the lessons in all of the subjects AND we had a field trip, well, I consider that a super excellent and productive day.

 

 

[Petrichor]

I don't think its fair for my kids for me to impose any sort of maximum learning standards. Maybe I'm not clear on what that means though. 

 

I can teach until my ears are blue, but if my DS isn't in a learning mood, he wont learn. I can't force him. I can't say to him "you are going to know 75% of 3rd grade math by July, or else."

 

But, since we homeschool, I can teach something, like counting money for the designated week. When he still doesn't understand how to subtract cash, I can take a break from it, and go back and reteach it in another way (our current situation, actually. We are taking about week off because counting money was getting too difficult and stressful. He will learn better after the break.) Or, as we have done in the past when something doesn't stick, we can choose to just move on and revisit the skill later. 

 

Maybe short term (i.e. one year) learning standards are not a reality. 

 

I do have minimum and maximum goals for MY CHILD in the long run. Who knows how they will pan out? I expect him to graduate high school and be able to get a good score on the SATs and do well in college/university, based on their standards. That would be the minimum for me. Preferable to that minimum is a kid who does well enough to qualify for scholarships to pay their college tuition. The bare minimum would be a child who can get and hold a job, pay for his living expenses, and support a wife and kids(in our family/culture, we expect the man to support his wife financially, though my daughter will be held to the same academic standards as her brother, barring any severe learning challenges/disabilities). 

 

The maximum produces a child who can do well in college/university and also understands the world (more than) a bit, and doesn't have trouble "adulting" like so many seem to have. The maximum probably also has my child in dual enrollment while in high school, or taking APs and doing honors-level work. 

[Mommyof1]

Thank you so much Dust. That's exactly what I wanted to know.

[Murphy101]

Schools have standards for learning, not just for teaching, and schools are held responsible for outcomes through standardized testing. I'm wondering if you've been under a rock and missed NCLB, Common Core and ESSA.

Means absolutely nothing in my state. Nothing. Seriously. Nothing. The education just keeps getting worse and worse. And everyone keeps complaining about money and wringing their hands and nothing changes and everything gets worse. Except the football fields. Those are always kept in the best up to date condition with a coach often being one of the best paid school staff next to the super intendant.

[creekland]

Personally, I think the best thing one can do with homeschooling is teach to mastery.  The student (any age, any grade) should truly know the material before moving on.  For some kids this is half a lesson - they catch on quickly.  For some it might be two weeks presented different ways (same topic). There are plenty in between these two examples, of course.  Kids might switch groups for different subjects, or even within the same subject.  They learn at different speeds.

 

The worst thing I have to do in ps where I work is move on knowing some kids don't really have a good grasp of what we just did.

 

With a good foundation, kids can do many things in their lives.

 

How much a student needs to know depends upon their goals and whether they are neurotypical or not.  Those heading to college should be ready to enter college.  Those not heading to college should be able to easily pass a GED if they had to (assuming neurotypical).  For those who aren't neurotypical, adjustments need to be made based upon what they are capable of.

 

I don't care what age someone is when they grasp certain concepts.  Our brains develop at different intervals.  I've seen a 9th grader struggling with Algebra 1 who successfully went on to be a math major in college at graduation.  My tippy top now in med school middle son couldn't read the word "was" even when it was on the same page three times when he was in first grade.  By fourth grade he was reading at a 12th grade level though.  When it clicked, it clicked and he flew.  (Not all will fly so quickly with a rough start - or even an average start - he tested gifted at 4 years of age, but still took longer to figure out reading/speaking.  We had him tested expecting to find a speech disability and were quite surprised with the overall results.)

 

It's important to keep plugging along though - not assuming they'll "get it" with no effort whatsoever.  That rarely happens.

[Dmmetler]

Minimum standards for me are simply that by the time the child exits childhood and legally heads into adulthood they will be prepared for a next step that the child considers desirable and that is on a path to as independent of adulthood as it is reasonable for that child to achieve.

[Petrichor]

Thank you so much Dust. That's exactly what I wanted to know.

 

If you want more info like what I posted, check out the k-12 curriculum board(I think that's what it's called). I like to read threads about what people are teaching their highschooler, middle schooler, and I begin teaching curriculum for the year keeping in mind a loose plan for the next year. Meaning, when I bought 3rd grade curriculum, I had a flexible list of what I wanted to teach in 4th grade and 5th grade written down too.

 

I search for past year's threads where people list what they plan to teach in 3rd grade, and 4th grade, to plan for the 3rd grade year, but I base it on what I think is important for DS to learn in x year.

[Rachel]

Minimum standards for me are simply that by the time the child exits childhood and legally heads into adulthood they will be prepared for a next step that the child considers desirable and that is on a path to as independent of adulthood as it is reasonable for that child to achieve.

Me too!

[Carol in Cal.]

If you want more info like what I posted, check out the k-12 curriculum board(I think that's what it's called). I like to read threads about what people are teaching their highschooler, middle schooler, and I begin teaching curriculum for the year keeping in mind a loose plan for the next year. Meaning, when I bought 3rd grade curriculum, I had a flexible list of what I wanted to teach in 4th grade and 5th grade written down too.

 

I search for past year's threads where people list what they plan to teach in 3rd grade, and 4th grade, to plan for the 3rd grade year, but I base it on what I think is important for DS to learn in x year.

The Rafe Esquith books are a really good sanity check for upper middle achievement in fifth grade.

[Petrichor]

The Rafe Esquith books are a really good sanity check for upper middle achievement in fifth grade.

 

Hadn't heard of those, I'll look into it. Is there a particular book you recommend to start with, or just any of them? From a quick search, it is difficult to determine which to start with.

[PeterPan]

For the op, I'm unclear, how old is your dc? Are you homeschooling yet? The reason I ask, is because I think how you handle that whole issue of goals, am I doing enough, etc. really depends on the child. I've never had to force my kids to learn. If I didn't work with dd and facilitate her learning, she CRIED. She was really hungry to learn! And so my goal was not to get in the way of that, lol. 

 

In our state, we have laws regulating homeschooling that specify we cover xyz subjects (basically your normal stuff like math, science, health/PE, etc.), so I guess you could say that's a minimum standard. I always viewed myself as a *facilitator* with dd. I could give her opportunities, and I could require her to do things maybe she wouldn't have the attention or diligence to require on her own, but beyond that a lot was facilitating and letting her make things happen. 

 

I had some personal, private goals that I had hoped to accomplish with her, and I didn't achieve all of them. Some were more important than others. There's a lot you don't get done in homeschooling, sigh, or at least that I don't. So the challenge for me, with both my kids, is to prioritize and make sure I'm accomplishing the most IMPORTANT things. I might have all kinds of lists for things we could do and where we could aspire to hit, but they're not all equally important. 

 

As far as having targets and goals for each subject, usually I went through WTM and the VP catalog 2-3 times a year, made lists, boom done. It gave me a way to say this is the progression of skills, this is where my dd is in that progression. Then we'd just try to make forward progress within that progression, relative to herself. 

 

I found that, in reality, who the dc *becomes* in the process is more important than what particular things they learn or don't learn, do or don't do. If they learn character, diligence, perserverance, if they have grit and can stick to it, if they know their weaknesses and can use their tools/resources/strategies, they can accomplish anything they want to. 

 

The only time we really hit walls with that was high school stuff, and even then we flexed it beyond oblivion. Her scores were good and we just let it work out. Even "minimum standards" went out the window. She just had to become the person she was becoming.

 

So my minimum standards with my ds? He has autism. I hope for him to pick up the clue phone, have personal responsibility, wake up and be on the plan. If I have that, we can accomplish anything and have a happy life. Really, in an existential sense, the particulars of the academics beyond that just don't matter.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My minimum standard has to do with consistency in doing the subjects that the state has asked me to cover (like Elizabeth said) for the number of days that I am required to provide schooling. As I said on another thread (though I can’t remember which one), my state requires that the student shows progress from year to year but doesn’t require them hit specific percentages.

 

That said, for neurotypical kids in the elementary age group, I would loosely want to cover the type of material and skills that are highlighted in one of those “what your x grader should know “ books. (We actually did our own thing but would occasionally look at those books just as a basic touchstone for academic literacy. )

 

I want my kids to be ready for college- not the most prestigious college but basic college level work.

 

I have two non traditional kids. My son is 2e. He’s both a rabbit and a tortoise in the same body. He flew through elementary and middle school but high school was more challenging for reasons that didn’t directly have to do with academics. My daughter has struggled and I have had a hard time figuring out why. She’s come into her own academically in high school but is having health problems that we’re still trying to tease out fully.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Carol in Cal.]

Hadn't heard of those, I'll look into it. Is there a particular book you recommend to start with, or just any of them? From a quick search, it is difficult to determine which to start with.

I'm partial to 'Teach Like Your Hair Is On Fire', but they are all pretty good.