Unschoolers

[happycc]

How do you deal with them.....

In a lot of my homeschool groups we have more of them than people like me (relatively structured homeschooler with a charter school that will have the kids go to speech therapy and occupational therapy if it is warranted). 

 

We clash in schedule. 

We clash in our activities.

We clash in a lot of beliefs ie parental expectations except we are pro homeschooling.

Our kids clash because the discussions and interests are different due to different skill levels. Everything was fine until end of middle school and beginning of high school. 

 

As a result I have had to pull out of the groups, because we just are on different paths. 

 

 

My kids need friends but it is hard to find.....

[Jean in Newcastle]

My kids got friends through the neighborhood, sports and the Y.  We didn't "do" homeschooling specific activities. 

[nixpix5]

I think you are on the right path...pulling out of the group and guiding your kids to like minded friends. It is really important at that age. We had a number of unschoolers show up at the Montessori school I used to work at and without fail they landed in my office because teachers didn't know what to do with them. It seemed many would come in to the school around 5th- 7th grade. Not all, but many, presented inattentive and could not follow classroom directions. Most had severe video game and tech addiction that made things so much worse. Obviously not all (and one in particular was flat out amazing) but this is what I saw more times than not. I think if you are scheduled in your schooling with specific academic goals for your kids then it becomes confusing in the teen years when kids start comparing their situations with peers. It is good for teens to have some access to others who are different but you are wise to begin funneling them towards those people who you can most relate to.

 

How are your kids processing it? Do they enjoy the friendships or do you see it causing friction? I would probably consider how my student was navigating it and base my next steps around that.

[HomeAgain]

We don't do school with others.  That helps.

 

Our co-ops, when we do participate, are more interest based than core subject.  We do activity classes, but education is not something I'm willing to compromise on. 

 

But, yeah, you're hitting the reason why my oldest went to school.  We met a group with parents who weren't offering math because "she doesn't like it and she's going to be a midwife, anyway"/kids who were stunted in growth, and found the co-op too educational and discriminatory, so with a lack of social time he went into school. It was great for him, at least better than the two options he had.

[bolt.]

Why do they need "dealing with" in a particular way?

 

I think all kinds of schoolers can make good friends (as long as they are good people), so I think groups for friendship, or get-together of various kinds can be really diverse. Acknowledging differences with good-natured inclusion makes a lot of sense to me. I don't see why it rises to the level of "clashing" just to be doing different things different ways.

[daijobu]

Agree with PPs that we keep social separate from academics.  We happen to have a lot of Waldorf and Waldorf-inspired homeschoolers in our area.  I like their low-media approach and preserving childhood (not growing up too soon, not sexualized), but that's where our similarities end.  We didn't participate in their group academic activities (we just aren't that into fairies), but we have had plenty of social time with them.  

 

 

[happycc]

In general we kept academics separate from social time. I had long learned not to do academics with unschoolers. We just did social stuff but even then there were issues...

 

My kids complained that they weren't interested in what they were interested at all. Mainly my kids are not into playing with and talking about My Little Ponies at the age of 10 and up. They are interested in talking about the latest Microbes affecting the ecology. My daughters would rather read Shakespeare or watch Casanova than watch fairy videos or books. 

I got tired of being flaked on.

I got tired of them saying "oh we decided to go here or there instead" and this happened nearly every day because well...they are unschoolers. The kids dictated where they went and what they did for every second of the day. 

I really don;t know what to say when they say "oh kids don't need to learn their multiplication facts." Gulp and I bite my lips for the 100th time.  

The biggest one of all that drives me crazy is that they are constantly hurting financially because they spend money on everything in the name of it being educational. Expensive toys and classes and trips and equipment. 

[bolt.]

It sounds like your kids are expecting a lot of commonalities from their friendships. Personally, I don't have any RL friends that like Shakespeare or Cassanova as much as I do: but they are still my friends. If your kids are going to be bright and sophisticated people for their whole lives (which is awesome!) it's important that they also learn that the basis of friendship is *caring* about each other, not intellectual stimulation.

 

They don't have to care about everyone, and they don't have to play ponies if they don't want to -- but if they like these children, I'm sure they can find a way to enjoy what common ground they do have. (If they don't like these children, that's solved. Nonissue.)

 

Flaking is irritating, and I think I maybe that's the heart of your challenge here -- that these people are inconsiderate towards you, and use unschooling as an excuse.

 

But, as for their money priorities and their school philosophy, you sound a bit judgy. Probably because they irritate you, because they are inconsiderate (see above). If they were nice people, I bet it wouldn't bug you so much that their kids are being unschooled, and that they endure money pinches in order to provide a rich edutainment filled childhood for them. Those are somewhat unwise choices, but they really have nothing to do with you, and there's no need for you to become concerned.

 

"They don't need to memorize math facts"? -- "Well, maybe yours don't, but I've made a different decision for mine. It's nice to have freedoms isn't it. How 'bout that bean dip?"

[daijobu]

Yeah, I pretty much think everyone else's homeschooling philosophy is crazy...unless they are doing exactly what I'm doing.   :lol:   I'm sure we're all rolling our eyes and shaking our heads at each other respectively, but I have no problem setting that aside and discuss something less controversial than homeschooling philosophies...like religion and politics, lol.  

[Farrar]

Flaky parents is uncool. Parents who make decisions you think are screwing up their finances and lives is unfun to listen to without commenting, but sometimes you just have to look away and wait for the subject to change or change it yourself.

 

Some friendships aren't worth it - there isn't enough overlap in interests and personalities and so forth. But no friendship is going to be someone who is into all the things you're into. And especially if you're into something slightly niche and academic as a young person, like microbes, then you're going to need to learn to compromise. I'll bet the world's best microbiologists have friends who aren't microbiologists, after all. That's just a life skill.

 

Pop culture is often currency for creating friendships. Being dismissive about it isn't going to get you very far on that front, I think. There are lots of varieties of popular culture and ways in - books, TV shows, movies, games... One of the best thing I've seen kids who are having trouble forging friendships do is adopt the interests of the kids they'd like to be friends with. And, sure, it meant they ended up really into Legos or manga or whatever when they weren't initially drawn to it for its own sake. But then they're not lonely and they have friends and they talk to them about all kinds of things, because that's what friends do. YMMV, of course.

[Farrar]

I also feel compelled to add that we know several unschooling families and the kids and adults vary greatly in flakiness, financial management skills, and interest in academic vs. "popular" passions.

[HomeAgain]

Flakiness is across the board.  We've done various things like collect payment before the event.  If the event is free, you need to pay a $5 deposit per family to reserve your spot.  The deposit is returned when you show up.  We've had policies that fudge the time to be 20 minutes before it should be because of the inevitable 30% that will show up late regardless.  Our co-op refused to let first year homeschoolers teach a class, mostly because of the willingness to jump in but not knowing how to balance school, home, and outside classes yet.  The one year we didn't have the policy we had two classes fold by the middle of October.  It wasn't fair to the kids who were participating. 

 

Flaky people are everywhere.  At least the unschoolers I know are willing to commit when they have other people counting on them.

[Ellie]

Yep, my experience of homeschool flakiness is that it can be found in any family, regardless of educational philosophy. 

 

Signed,

 

the mom who never organises field trips anymore because life is too short to deal with people incapable of turning up on time with the correct money.

 

Yeah, this unschooling mom figured out right away that (1) you have to charge for every field trip, even if it's actually free, because people will feel compelled to show up if they paid even $1 per person, and (2) payment is always due ahead of time, by a deadline, no refunds, no exceptions (unless the field trip is cancelled because of apparent lack of interest).

[rjand6more]

In general we kept academics separate from social time. I had long learned not to do academics with unschoolers. We just did social stuff but even then there were issues...

 

My kids complained that they weren't interested in what they were interested at all. Mainly my kids are not into playing with and talking about My Little Ponies at the age of 10 and up. They are interested in talking about the latest Microbes affecting the ecology. My daughters would rather read Shakespeare or watch Casanova than watch fairy videos or books. 

I got tired of being flaked on.

I got tired of them saying "oh we decided to go here or there instead" and this happened nearly every day because well...they are unschoolers. The kids dictated where they went and what they did for every second of the day. 

I really don;t know what to say when they say "oh kids don't need to learn their multiplication facts." Gulp and I bite my lips for the 100th time.  

The biggest one of all that drives me crazy is that they are constantly hurting financially because they spend money on everything in the name of it being educational. Expensive toys and classes and trips and equipment. 

 

Some of the smartest and most intense kids I know are what I would consider unschoolers-almost 100% interested-led.

 

Also, just because kids play with toys-dd12 loved MLP at age 10-does not mean they are not intelligent enough to carry a conversation.  All kids are different. DD15 is nerdy.  Sings opera. Memorizes Shakespeare.Does dissections at sleepovers.  She does not fit in well in ANY group.  She has a few close friends, the closest friend she met at a museum program a couple years ago.  She is not homeschooled.  dd12 loves to crochet(and is awesome at it!), is currently making slime, is hoping 1 Direction gets back together, and still has her Barbie condo up in her room. She is fun-loving and smart. She is social and bubbly.

 

One of the reasons I started homeschooling was because ds-age 8- had "outgrown" toys.  He only wanted to play with Yougio(sp?) cards, video games, etc.  He was called a baby if he wanted to play with toys.  Well, within weeks, he was playing with toys again.  I was thrilled.

 

I spend so much money on school related things.  I guess it's my hobby. :)  I don't complain about finances to anybody.  I will say that I have overpurchased on school things and we had to take a hit on grocery budget(OK, maybe more than once! :laugh: )  But, dang it, those science supplies were totally worth it!

[nixpix5]

Some of the smartest and most intense kids I know are what I would consider unschoolers-almost 100% interested-led.

 

Also, just because kids play with toys-dd12 loved MLP at age 10-does not mean they are not intelligent enough to carry a conversation. All kids are different. DD15 is nerdy. Sings opera. Memorizes Shakespeare.Does dissections at sleepovers. She does not fit in well in ANY group. She has a few close friends, the closest friend she met at a museum program a couple years ago. She is not homeschooled. dd12 loves to crochet(and is awesome at it!), is currently making slime, is hoping 1 Direction gets back together, and still has her Barbie condo up in her room. She is fun-loving and smart. She is social and bubbly.

 

One of the reasons I started homeschooling was because ds-age 8- had "outgrown" toys. He only wanted to play with Yougio(sp?) cards, video games, etc. He was called a baby if he wanted to play with toys. Well, within weeks, he was playing with toys again. I was thrilled.

 

I spend so much money on school related things. I guess it's my hobby. :) I don't complain about finances to anybody. I will say that I have overpurchased on school things and we had to take a hit on grocery budget(OK, maybe more than once! :laugh: ) But, dang it, those science supplies were totally worth it!

This is so awesome! Your kids sound amazing :) and just to put it out there and open myself up to eye rolls, I collected my little ponies (and was a mod on the arena) up until my twins were born 6 years ago at which time I sold off my entire collection to fund the fertility treatments I was needing. I had 100s upon 100s of them as a full grown adult. Being a kid is fun ;)

[HS Mom in NC]

How do you deal with them.....

In a lot of my homeschool groups we have more of them than people like me (relatively structured homeschooler with a charter school that will have the kids go to speech therapy and occupational therapy if it is warranted). 

 

We clash in schedule. 

 

Does this mean you're trying to schedule things with unschoolers but are having a hard time finding a day you can all get together?  Does it mean when you cit chat about your individual schedules you find each family is doing something very different and that bothers you?  

 

 

We clash in our activities.

 

Does this mean you're trying to coordinate doing the same activities and can't find one everyone wants to do?  Does this mean the unschoolers are doing different activities with their kids and you're doing different activities with your kids and when everyone chit chats about what they're doing it bothers you?

 

 

We clash in a lot of beliefs ie parental expectations except we are pro homeschooling.

 

Do you mean parental expectations about behavior in the group (no hitting, no biting, taking turns, kinds words, use of profanity, certain topics discussed you think shouldn't be, etc.) or do you mean parental expectations when it comes to academics, enrichment and life skills in their own homeschool? 

 

Our kids clash because the discussions and interests are different due to different skill levels. Everything was fine until end of middle school and beginning of high school. 

 

What does this mean?  It's very vague.  Do you mean they have nothing to talk about because some are academically very advanced and they only want to talk about advanced academics with their middle school and high school friends?

 

As a result I have had to pull out of the groups, because we just are on different paths. 

 

Do you do this in your adult life too?  Only the people on the same path as you are the people you get together with?  Or do you mean you really need support for the path you're on and you time is limited so you're seeking out like minded people to help and advise you?  Are you specially looking for common interest groups for your kids?

 

 

My kids need friends but it is hard to find.....

 

What kind of friends do you mean?  What's your criteria? Do they have to use the same curriculum?  Homeschooling philosophy? Do they have to go to the same kind of adult training you have in mind for your kids?  (Skilled labor, college, military, entrepreneurial endeavors, etc. ) 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

In general we kept academics separate from social time. I had long learned not to do academics with unschoolers. We just did social stuff but even then there were issues...

 

My kids complained that they weren't interested in what they were interested at all. Mainly my kids are not into playing with and talking about My Little Ponies at the age of 10 and up.

 

That's fine.  They don't have to.  But as a CM/Trivium hybrid myself in an unschooling group of 40+ families, I have to say that's unusual for unschoolers. How many unschoolers are you interacting with at once?

 

They are interested in talking about the latest Microbes affecting the ecology.

 

Well, most kids, even really academically gifted ones aren't going to be interest in that in group settings. Maybe a science or ecology group would be a better fit for that very specific interest. If your child is having a hard time making friends because they have a hard time connecting with kids on a wide variety of typical subjects, the book The Unwritten Rules of Friendship: Simple Strategies to Help Your Child Make Friends by Elman PHD, is a great resource. Chapter 17: The Little Adult (Playing the Expert, Belittling Peers' Interests, Needing to be Perfect)  covers that specifically.

 

My mothers has 3 cousins she grew up with who now live scattered across The West.  One was a one hit wonder who could only talk about her Bible Study fellowship.  Only one other cousin shared her faith, so that topic was exhausted fairly quickly when they got together.  She didn't have many other interests so she didn't have much else to chat about after talking about her kids.  Mom and the others had several things to talk about when it came to tv shows (mostly popular BBC productions) and a few best sellers.  That made up for their completely different lifestyles and political views.  The one cousin eventually figured out she didn't have much to talk about and watched a couple of those BBC shows.  Not only did she find it contributed to conversations with the annual cousin get together, but with other people too.

 

 

My daughters would rather read Shakespeare or watch Casanova than watch fairy videos or books. 

 

Our unschoolers had a Shakespeare performance group some of them participated in and they often attended local performances in the area by theaters and schools.  Set something up and invite others along, you might be surprised how many unschoolers would gladly take their kids to a performance. But like I said above, fairy videos and books are within the range of normal for kids.

 

 

I got tired of being flaked on.

 

There are loooong threads here venting about how many homeschoolers flake.  Those complains include homeschoolers of all sorts: interest driven unschooling, hands on application unschooling, CM Classical, Trivium Classical, TJED Classical, unit study, tradtional textbook, living books, etc.

 

 

I got tired of them saying "oh we decided to go here or there instead" and this happened nearly every day because well...they are unschoolers. The kids dictated where they went and what they did for every second of the day. 

 

So were you relying on them to do something in the group?  If not, what difference does it make to you if they choose not attend consistently?  I'm a committed, consistent attender myself but it's nothing to me if someone else doesn't show up as long as their attendance doesn't affect the group.  Don't give them responsibilities and then when they don't show the problem is solved. 

 

 

I really don;t know what to say when they say "oh kids don't need to learn their multiplication facts." Gulp and I bite my lips for the 100th time.

 

I would simply say something like, "Well I use my multiplication/division facts all the time planning events, shopping, buying supplies, lesson planning, cooking, making quilts, etc.  I would be so frustrated not knowing them I probably wouldn't be able to do those things happily or maybe even at all. Thank God for Mrs. Barrrett and Mrs. Enoch who taught them to me.  We loved our Math U See skip counting songs and Relex Math games that teach them in such a fun way.

 

 

The biggest one of all that drives me crazy is that they are constantly hurting financially because they spend money on everything in the name of it being educational. Expensive toys and classes and trips and equipment. 

 

I now live debt free and I'm a registered Libertarian.  Most Americans, not just unschoolers, are in debt up their eyeballs and so is the government.  If I let it get to me I'd have a stroke.  Most people are on a path to financial ruin and they're voting the nation that way too.  Many are clueless and others who are aware are apathetic.  

 

 

 

Overall, it sounds to me like you struggle with otherness. Being OK with diversity is really important.  I think it might be something you need to work on and you need to teach your children.  No, you don't have to stay with a group that isn't benefiting you at all, and there might be others that benefit you more,  but I think it might be possible that the group could benefit you if you're willing to see value in otherness. I have friends who homeschool and live very differently than I do and we enjoy each other's company so much.  I don't live on a farm, I'm not into the Circe approach, I don't do the next thing, I'm not artistic, I'm not into theater, my kids don't show livestock, we're not all musicians, we're not international travelers, but they are and we get a lot out of being together.  We do have an area of overlap in some way and so that's what we talk about and sometimes we even talk about things we don't overlap on and I enjoy hearing about it. 

 

Now I'm all for expecting homeschoolers to hold up their end of the deal made with legislatures when homeschooling was legalized: provide the academic equivalent of the K-12 education provided by government schools, but being upset by my little ponies and kids not wanting to chat about microbes and Shakespeare isn't that.   There are even great award winning adult books and movies about Faeries like Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.

 

 

 

[winterbaby]

I hear you OP inasmuch as I often find unschooling parents, like many people who practice alternative philosophies, to be incapable of much conversation other than signaling their feelings about the superiority of their lifestyle. That "well we don't believe in XYZ" business is loaded with insinuations about the other person. But the kids are generally OK and maybe the shoe is on the other foot a little bit if your kids are unwilling to talk about anything but their advanced academic pursuits. I agree with PP that being more open to typical interests is an important social skill they should learn.

[mytwomonkeys]

This is so awesome! Your kids sound amazing :) and just to put it out there and open myself up to eye rolls, I collected my little ponies (and was a mod on the arena) up until my twins were born 6 years ago at which time I sold off my entire collection to fund the fertility treatments I was needing. I had 100s upon 100s of them as a full grown adult. Being a kid is fun ;)

My almost 16 year old in 6th grade (public school) collected my little ponies and still owns them all. When we moved recently, she was offended at the idea of tossing them out, lol. It was a very trendy thing for the middle school kids here to collect them all & she had so much fun with it. I never thought twice about it. It didn't cross my mind as being anything other than a hobby.

[Renai]

My almost 16 year old in 6th grade (public school) collected my little ponies and still owns them all. When we moved recently, she was offended at the idea of tossing them out, lol. It was a very trendy thing for the middle school kids here to collect them all & she had so much fun with it. I never thought twice about it. It didn't cross my mind as being anything other than a hobby.

 

We sometimes have pretty involved life lesson discussions with examples coming from the new MLP.  :leaving:

[stutterfish]

It's wonderful to find like-minded individuals, who have similar beliefs and can offer support because they are following a similar educational path or have similar parenting methods. In the UK, we have far fewer families taking the home education route than in the US, so, while there are special families that we really love to hang out with, we can't afford to be fussy about who attends groups. Sure, the autonomous educators mostly attend unstructured groups, but there are always opportunities for unschoolers and school-at-home-ers to get together.

 

Homeschooling has been an amazing lesson in tolerance, for me, even more than my kids. When an atheist and a Muslim homeschooler can sit together and discuss how best to adapt a Christian curriculum to meet their kids' needs, it shows how amazing it is to be a part of a mixed community. :)

Edited June 29, 2017 by stutterfish

[IsabelC]

Firstly, I think flakiness with plans is not an 'unschooling' thing as such. I have met many unschoolers, and never had this issue.  If you make plans, you either follow those plans, or you let people know asap if you need to cancel or change the plans. That is just basic manners and respect for others, and has nothing to do with education style in my book. Of course, if the plan actually was 'we'll play it by ear and do what feels right on the day', then you can't really complain. It's possible that if you are very organized and scheduled, whereas they are so 'go with the flow' that they can't cope with a specific plan, they may simply not be the right people for you and your kids to be spending time with.

Once you have eliminated the terminally flaky people, you might consider encouraging your kids to have different friends for different things. If they have special interests, maybe they could join groups or clubs to make friends with others who have similar interests. But they shouldn't expect all their friends / acquaintances, to share all of their interests. I think that sometimes we (adults as well as kids) can miss out on some valuable friendships by being too intent on finding 'like-minded' friends. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by IsabelC

[stutterfish]

I also want to comment on the whole 'flakiness' thing with homeschoolers.

 

I do think there are good reasons why people can appear flakey. It's easy to forget that many homeschoolers we meet are not just new to homeschooling, but new to parenting and new to organising a household and family. It's a whole new bundle of skills that they are trying to learn on the job, often not very well. That inexperience can show up in various ways, such as not being able to get out of the house on time with young kids; not knowing how to encourage good behaviour; evangelising about their methods of parenting and homeschooling (because it's new and shiny for them and they are desperate for anything that works); forgetting appointments because of sleep deprivation or lack of organisation; and appearing rude or distant or distracted, because they are using all their energy trying not to have a public breakdown. Obviously there are some parents who are just thoughtless, lazy, or rude, but I genuinely think those are in the minority.

 

Looking back, there were plenty of times when I probably came across as rude or flakey or selfish or unreliable. It never occurred to me to thank organisers who spent time and energy creating the activities, because I had *absolutely* no idea how much work went into these events. They were so efficient and everything ran so smoothly, that I just assumed it was something easy to do. (Until, years later, I had to do it myself!) I did my fair share of evangelising about every single new parenting method (that I'd tried for one whole week, lol), the new fantastic washable nappies, the new home schooling book or guru. There were also times when I got half-way to an event and the kids had a meltdown and I just had to turn back. I was far too ashamed of my incompetence as a parent to confess to a super-efficient organiser what had happened (and who probably thought I was just another unreliable mother)

 

In terms of wanting to hang out with like-minded individuals, I do understand it. I have met homeschoolers who are obsessed with structure and rules and time-keeping, inflexible about changing a schedule, fixed in their ideas of how others should be, only willing to hang out with 'their kind', strict with their kids (and expecting the same perfection from other children). Their time-keeping is perfect, they never forget an appointment, their houses are beautiful, their kids are impeccably behaved (if a little neurotic) and always always ahead academically. In many ways, these families come across as the "perfect" homeschoolers. Truthfully, I find them difficult to spend time with because their anxiety is infectious, and their kids often don't make easygoing playmates. :). They can make amazing group organisers, though, so they definitely have their place in my homeschooling world! (And I could definitely do with learning some organisation tips from them)

 

I do think there is a place for a happy medium, a bit of give-and-take, mutual tolerance. I'm deeply grateful for all the unschoolers I've met who have diluted my need to control and be perfect, and who have given me an insight into the joys of spontaneity and going-with-the-flow. Learning to be able to change plans, ditch the textbooks for a day of fun in the sun, allow kids freedom to explore and learn without the need for strict rules or timetables, all of these things have benefited our family and enhanced my parenting. I wouldn't have had them had I not experienced the company of such a diverse variety of homeschoolers.

Edited July 1, 2017 by stutterfish

[deerforest]

My daughter's best friends are either unschoolers or public/private schoolers. Off the top of my head, I can't think of maybe more than 1 friend whose family has the same academic-eclectic focus to homeschooling that we do.

 

It has absolutely no effect on their friendships. They have tons of other things in common, and my daughter doesn't care at all what anyone is doing in their academic life.

 

ETA: I admit that with DH and I working full time, we just drop DD off places so we don't chat about homeschooling with other parents anymore. I think it's only parents who care about this stuff, at least in my experience.

Edited June 30, 2017 by deerforest

[Jean in Newcastle]

We ran into an issue with one unschooling family who was 100% child led.  They would make plans (for instance to go to the zoo with us) but if a child felt like not going when they were getting their shoes on, then they wouldn't go.  I saw it as a huge parenting difference, not an educational one.  If we wanted to see them we had to accommodate their childrens' whims or we couldn't see them.  Eventually my kids got tired of that.  They were nice people and we enjoyed a lot of things about them but it was a fundamental difference in how we saw the "give and take" of social relationships. 

 

Obviously not all unschooling families parent this way or the kids figure out "give and take" on their own etc.  This was just our experience with one particular family where at least until their oldest was 14 (which was when we faded away),  did not figure it out over that period of time. 

[stutterfish]

Nm

Edited July 1, 2017 by stutterfish