DE for student headed into engineering?

[teachermom2834]

Thinking way ahead here.

 

My first two dc heavily utilized de from a local university. They were/are headed to college as probable business majors. DE was a great step into college and they were able to knock out almost all gen ed requirements giving them lots of flexibility during the undergrad. Made me a big fan of de.

 

Next kid coming up is a STEM kid for sure. Probably engineering but can see it going toward math or science. Looking ahead towards de for him I have some thoughts:

 

1) I suspect it would be best to take an entire math or science sequence at the undergrad institution. Say Calc 1/Calc 2 are not as rigorous at our local university?

 

2) DE for the few gen ed/ humanities classes could transfer easily and he could knock those out de. BUT...those grades don't transfer, just the credits. My thought is that those would be GPA boosters for my kid. Maybe it is better to let him take the basic English comp, easier humanities classes at the undergrad institution to ease his load a bit and have some easier classes figured into the GPA.

 

My thought is that perhaps it best to just provide him the rigorous home education that is possible using advanced materials rather than checking off the easier college credits while in high school. I am thinking engineering will be so tough he might be at a disadvantage to have taken all the easy classes already.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thank you!

[amyx4]

I have a DE high school Senior so we're not all the way though the process. The local CC Engineering department has an agreement with the local StateU Engineering department. So there are specific engineering classes that do transfer.  Ds also went into the StateU Engineering dept and doubled checked that the CC classes really did transfer.  They were very helpful.   So, I would suggest getting help from the departments in addition to the DE office.

 

Also, the local StateU does DE so that's where he took Calc I & Calc II.

 

[FriedClams]

My DD is in a similar boat - definitely headed toward engineering and would love a top tier school. She's starting DE this summer. We're going to back her up in math and add some fun science.

 

She'll take online DE college algebra this summer (before jr year). Our hope is that it's an easy course and she can learn the ropes without much stress.

 

In the fall she'll transition onto campus for college trig and astronomy with lab. The astronomy is not calculus based, so it should be fun and interesting. The math, again, should be a repeat with more breadth.

 

She'll take the spring (junior year) off for other stuff and travel, then do DE Precal online over the summer. This is the math she's finishing now. Again, we're shooting for breadth and making sure the foundation is rock solid.

 

Then in the fall it'll be physics with lab and Calc 1. Our plan is not to take classes in the spring (again, travel and other stuff). Otherwise she'll take Comp 1 and Calc 2, and maybe another lab science.

 

Our philosophy (and would love to hear what others have to say on this too) is that for a normal smart kid, there's no reason to push too far past Calc 1. If your kid is a math prodigy - go for it.

 

We are also unconcerned about transfer credits. I WANT her to take Calc 1 and 2 at the college she chooses. I would assume that a good engineering school's  Calc 1 will be harder than at the 4 year liberal arts uni where she'll DE but we'll see. The DE school she's attending has a 2/2 with the state Tech, which is a top tier tech university, so it might be comparable. Either way, repeating is no pressure, should be review, and again, breadth. It won't lighten her schedule (taking it again), but it should make for a nice, smooth transition. 

 

For the GPA stuff, and humanities boosters, I'm not too concerned. I may have the wrong attitude, but I don't think employers care about grades - but more about the whole person - so showing some "I can read and write" classes would be good for future engineers. I think it would be an easier sell in a job interview than "look I took 95% math and engineering courses but learned to write in high school" kwim? I might be way off and rationalizing our plan, but only time will tell! LOL! I'm also encouraging DD to have some back-up schools with 3/2 or 2/2 with liberal arts schools. Maybe it's the WTM-mom in me, but I think well rounded is a really, really great thing for their futures. 

[Kassia]

1) I suspect it would be best to take an entire math or science sequence at the undergrad institution. Say Calc 1/Calc 2 are not as rigorous at our local university?

 

2) DE for the few gen ed/ humanities classes could transfer easily and he could knock those out de. BUT...those grades don't transfer, just the credits. My thought is that those would be GPA boosters for my kid. Maybe it is better to let him take the basic English comp, easier humanities classes at the undergrad institution to ease his load a bit and have some easier classes figured into the GPA.

 

 

 

My experience with one of my sons who did DE full-time in his junior/senior years and went on to major in engineering at a large state university:

 

1.  The math at the CC was taught much better than at the state university.  The CC had small classes and professors who spoke English instead of graduate students instructing.  My son took all of his math requirements at the CC except for statistics (our CC didn't have the engineering statistics class required) and linear algebra.  ETA - his twin brother, also an engineering major at the same university, took all of his math classes at the university and they were not taught nearly as well as the CC classes were.  

 

2.  He took almost all of his gen ed classes at the CC.  I did have the same concern about the GPA, but it worked out fine.  My son ended up taking fewer credits each semester (12-15 vs. 15-18) which allowed him to focus on his engineering classes more.  He also picked up a business minor since he had extra room in his schedule due to getting almost all of the gen ed requirements out of the way,  The one negative was that he needed a certain number of honors classes at his university to stay in the honors program, but they were all in general ed classes and he didn't need to take enough of those classes to fulfill the requirement.  So he did not end up staying in the honors program.  He could have taken random honors classes, but chose not to do that.  

Edited March 15, 2017 by Erica H

[HTRMom]

If he comes in with a bunch of humanities classes, he may be able to choose any type of electives he wants, or take 4 classes per semester instead of 5, or graduate early.

 

 

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[mjbucks1]

My ds is a CS major in the College of Engineering at UA.  He is also in the honors college and is in a program where he can work on his MBA at the same time as his undergrad degree.  He did not have DE courses, but had 55 AP credits.  This has allowed him to take a lighter course load, which helps him keep his GPA up.  He might have to take a couple classes he doesn't *need*, but many of the honors college classes are fun and interesting, so I do not think he will care.

[teachermom2834]

Thank you, all. Always do good to get others' experiences here!

[MarkT]

1)  Suggest take Calc 1 and 2 during HS years.  Start at Calc 2 for college. (our current plan) - assuming strong in math

2)  Don't assume that your student can pad the GPA with gen eds in college - they are harder than you think - I would go for the transfer credit 

[MarkT]

Each college seems to do the transfer thing differently. I just got the transfer credit worksheet from ERAU today and was surprised. Dd's CS stuff if still be evaluated, but at this point, ERAU isn't even looking at her calc! Huh???? 

 

 

ERAU == Embry–Riddle Aeronautical University ?

 

My DS' school has basic DE Eng classes with them - we opted not be DE with them (fairly high cost) - the classes were too easy in my book anyway

So why aren't they looking at your student's Calc??   I would contact them.

[FriedClams]

Thought this was a great article on DE and transfer credits (and how low the percentage really is): http://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25919951&bcid=25919951&rssid=25919941&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Few%2F%3Fuuid%3DCACAAA9A-7130-11E6-B04A-C8EDB3743667

[teachermom2834]

So a suggestion that has been made a couple times here is to take Calc 1/2 and then repeat Calc 2 at the college. I guess I didn't realize you could decline transfer credit. So if ds gets an A in Calc as a de student he can request he not be given credit for it and take it again?

 

I'm all for repetition but I just didn't think that was an option.

[MarkT]

So a suggestion that has been made a couple times here is to take Calc 1/2 and then repeat Calc 2 at the college. I guess I didn't realize you could decline transfer credit. So if ds gets an A in Calc as a de student he can request he not be given credit for it and take it again?

 

I'm all for repetition but I just didn't think that was an option.

You may/should send in an explanation such as "Calc 2 not as rigorous as expected" or  "didn't cover full syllabus"  - yeah some sandbagging OR many U give a placement test to all students

[MarkT]

Thought this was a great article on DE and transfer credits (and how low the percentage really is): http://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25919951&bcid=25919951&rssid=25919941&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Few%2F%3Fuuid%3DCACAAA9A-7130-11E6-B04A-C8EDB3743667

 

here is a long one on DE in general

https://www2.ed.gov/programs/slcp/finaldual.pdf

[katilac]

 

 

She'll take online DE college algebra this summer (before jr year). Our hope is that it's an easy course and she can learn the ropes without much stress.

 

In the fall she'll transition onto campus for college trig and astronomy with lab. The astronomy is not calculus based, so it should be fun and interesting. The math, again, should be a repeat with more breadth.

 

She'll take the spring (junior year) off for other stuff and travel, then do DE Precal online over the summer. This is the math she's finishing now. Again, we're shooting for breadth and making sure the foundation is rock solid.

 

 

If she's finishing up precalc now, she's likely to be bored out of her mind with college algebra and trig. They won't have more depth, because they are the math classes taken by students who don't need any other math, not kids who are proceeding to calculus. At dd's school, it's not even possible to get credit for both college algebra/trig and then precalculus - you can take them both, but you won't get credit for both, so check on that. If she's doing a true precalc course, I would not go backwards to college algebra, just have her start with precalc if she wants a review and possibly more breadth.  

 

It is definitely very common to take calc in high school, and then again in college. 

[FriedClams]

If she's finishing up precalc now, she's likely to be bored out of her mind with college algebra and trig. They won't have more depth, because they are the math classes taken by students who don't need any other math, not kids who are proceeding to calculus. At dd's school, it's not even possible to get credit for both college algebra/trig and then precalculus - you can take them both, but you won't get credit for both, so check on that. If she's doing a true precalc course, I would not go backwards to college algebra, just have her start with precalc if she wants a review and possibly more breadth.

 

It is definitely very common to take calc in high school, and then again in college.

Thank you. We have our first counselor meeting this week so we'll discuss this. I appreciate the advice!

[regentrude]

If he comes in with a bunch of humanities classes, he may be able to choose any type of electives he wants, or take 4 classes per semester instead of 5, or graduate early.

 

Just a comment about "graduate early""

in STEM majors, many classes must be finished in sequence and cannot be taken out of order since they build on each other. If a degree  program is designed to take four years, often some courses are only offered every other semester or, for upper level classes, even less frequently. So don't count on graduating early, even if the student transfers in a lot of gen ed credit. 

[regentrude]

If she's finishing up precalc now, she's likely to be bored out of her mind with college algebra and trig. They won't have more depth, because they are the math classes taken by students who don't need any other math, not kids who are proceeding to calculus. At dd's school, it's not even possible to get credit for both college algebra/trig and then precalculus - you can take them both, but you won't get credit for both, so check on that. If she's doing a true precalc course, I would not go backwards to college algebra, just have her start with precalc if she wants a review and possibly more breadth.  

 

It is definitely very common to take calc in high school, and then again in college. 

 

This.

For students going into STEM, college algebra and trig are remedial courses that don't count towards their major. At our university, these courses are taken almost exclusively by students who require remediation. A strong math student would be surrounded by students struggling in math. I can see no benefit of putting a strong high school student into such a class.

[anne1456]

For my kids who are going into STEM majors I had them take a lab science class as a dual enrolled student. One took Environmental Science, one took Anatomy and one took Chemistry. I think getting some college level hands on lab work can help STEM bound homeschoolers in the college admissions process, even if they end up not using the credit or re-taking the class.

[kiana]

re: gen eds as GPA boosters -- If he's already done his gen eds, he can take any class he wants as a general elective instead. Like, instead of "freshman composition" take "literature of science fiction", or anything in any department that appeals to him. This includes additional intro-level classes -- he doesn't need to do 200-level history classes if he's done 100-level history classes for gen eds, he can do 100-level psychology or economics classes for personal interest as well. I'd say those are even more likely to be GPA boosters. 

[HTRMom]

Just a comment about "graduate early""

in STEM majors, many classes must be finished in sequence and cannot be taken out of order since they build on each other. If a degree program is designed to take four years, often some courses are only offered every other semester or, for upper level classes, even less frequently. So don't count on graduating early, even if the student transfers in a lot of gen ed credit.

Good to know! I guess it depends on the school.

 

 

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[Frances]

Just a comment about "graduate early""

in STEM majors, many classes must be finished in sequence and cannot be taken out of order since they build on each other. If a degree program is designed to take four years, often some courses are only offered every other semester or, for upper level classes, even less frequently. So don't count on graduating early, even if the student transfers in a lot of gen ed credit.

This was definitely true for my chemistry major son. He took general chem at the local LAC during high school, so started with Orgo his freshman year at university. But the final required class he needed for his major was only offered spring quarter his senior year, so he couldn't even graduate one quarter early. But he wasn't planning to graduate early, so it was not a problem, and he was able to take lots of interesting electives outside of chemistry his senior year and will now be pursuing graduate work in a non-science area related to those classes.

 

I think taking gen ed classes now and at least first year calc (even if the student later repeats some of it at U) as others have suggested sounds like a great plan. Being able to take a lighter load as a STEM major can be very helpful at times and also having room for extra electives if desired can be very useful as new interests are discovered during college. My son really loved having the majority of his difficult STEM classes done during his first three years in college and then being able to focus on science research and non-science electives during his senior year. Personally, he chose to take 300 level electives outside of his major, but a student could always choose lower level ones if they were looking to lighten their load or boost their GPA.