Religion and LGBTQ

[Veritaserum]

Personally, I'd see someone as hostile if they wanted to legislate away my marital, parental, or other rights simply because they think my orientation offends their deity.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Veritaserum

[6packofun]

The sort of behavior you describe in your son is why social transition is only considered for gender nonconforming children in whom expression that they have been assigned the wrong gender is consistent, insistent, and persistent.

 

There are also gender nonconforming children who resist being steered away from their likes without claiming they belong in the other gender. E.g., some people will tell a boy who likes pink that pink is just for girls and he's not supposed to like it because he is a boy. If he insists on liking pink (or dolls, or whatever else is usually associated with "girl" by our culture but has nothing to do with actual biology), he may be considered gender nonconforming without being labeled transgender. Gender nonconforming boys are often discouraged and told they are wrong in our culture, more so than girls. And there is a point at which the line between gender nonconformity and transgender identity blurs, but in children social transition and delayed puberty are options parents and medical professionals consider when the situation is far more persistent and extreme, involving gender dysphoria, not just liking things assigned by culture to the other gender. 

 

To your first line:  I think there are many parents who do NOT get this and it is hurting children.  On one hand, they will say that cultural gender stereotypes should be avoided and who cares what colors and toys our children like?  But they will use those exact stereotypes as reasons to encourage some kind of transition because it's all so fluid.  It's a disconnect.  (Not all parents are doing this, but I think most of us have seen stories where parents seem to be transitioning their child and even convincing him or her way before genuine dysphoria can be called upon.)

 

The other issue that makes it difficult for parents is that we must rely on medical and mental health communities who may or may not have missed the boat on how to best treat this disorder.  (Yes, disorder.)  There is so much we do not know yet experts and the culture speak in definite terms.  Where do parents and children go when BOTH want counseling for the mental health aspects in order to NOT live a disordered, transgender life?  Not many in those two expert communities feel free to pursue that option without being criticized harshly for not working towards transition.  And it doesn't even have to be religious reasons at ALL.  In how many books, tv specials and doctors offices do we hear the stories of those who REGRET transitioning?  Where were their stories in the National Geographic issue recently??  It's like that doesn't ever happen or those poor people have just been pressured to go against their true selves and that's just crap.

 

And I DO empathize because my daughter is working through this issue as my husband and I love her fiercely and want her HEALTHY.  We're conservative Christians and you would not believe how hard it is to find anyone (not from church) who will love her like we do, enough to say that she needs help and not a shopping trip to the men's department or a binder for her breasts.  I'm not being snarky--we ONLY hear about how it will help her to give in to what her brain is saying against the truth of the body she has. Other than that, the Christian community hasn't much to offer, either. (Although we certainly aren't sharing this with many people and she doesn't want to.)  I sincerely hope that changes.  This is how we love someone but not the sin, as cliche as that phrase is.  My daughter's brain is simply lying to her--people with other disorders have brains that do this, too, myself included--and I can't support the idea that one must base an identity on a lie.  It doesn't help that she hates her female body because of endometriosis and rotten periods, etc., too.  She has found such strength in finding other women who LOVE their bodies through this issue rather than hating it.  There IS help; we're going to find it.

[Scarlett]

But you say you can't be friends with a gay person. I am willing to bet though that you have friends and family who are gluttons, liars, tax cheats, adulterers etc. The church I grew up in would consider you an adulterer (remarriage is frowned on, doesn't matter why marriage broke up.) How would or feel if you were shunned because you remarried after a divorce?

 

Note, I have zero problems with divorce and am happy that you were able to remarry.

No I do not have friends who are gluttons, liars, cheats or adulterers. I certainly have friends who have been those things and repented. No one I know or I am friends with says, 'well, I can't help myself I am just an adulterer and you have to accept me for how I am."

 

I fully accept that some people see my remarriage as illegitimate. I don't mind that.

[Scarlett]

If you don't know any AND say you can't be friends with any, how is it that you are not hostile? It's pretty hostile to assume that friendship is out of the question with people you say you have never even met.

Choosing to not form close friendships with people who live contrary to what I believe to be right is not hostile. I am kind to all I meet, I wish nothing bad on anyone.

[Scarlett]

Personally, I'd see someone as hostile if they wanted to legislate away my marital, parental, or other rights simply because they think my orientation offends their deity.

Well I pass that test.

[Scarlett]

"I love you, really I do! I just can't be your friend or interact with you or accept you or involve you in my life in any way."

 

Yep, no cognitive dissonance there.

I never say to anyone I love you I really do I just can't be your friend. So I can't speak to that. You and I obviously have very different ideas about what Christian love is. It does not include accepting sin as non sin.

[LucyStoner]

No I do not have friends who are gluttons, liars, cheats or adulterers. I certainly have friends who have been those things and repented. No one I know or I am friends with says, 'well, I can't help myself I am just an adulterer and you have to accept me for how I am."

 

I fully accept that some people see my remarriage as illegitimate. I don't mind that.

I seriously doubt you live in a town or attend a church that is uniquely free of all sin. Sorry, but I can't buy your statement here as being truth.

[LucyStoner]

Choosing to not form close friendships with people who live contrary to what I believe to be right is not hostile. I am kind to all I meet, I wish nothing bad on anyone.

You and I have differing understandings of hostile. Rejecting people one has never met is a form of hostility. For me, genuine kindness is impossible where pre-set condemnation and judgment is present.

[Scarlett]

I seriously doubt you live in a town or attend a church that is uniquely free of all sin. Sorry, but I can't buy your statement here as being truth.

I don't think you understand me. I didn't say free of sin. We have a congregation that strives to maintain proper conduct. Things happen. Humans make mistakes ( sin) . It isn't just tolerated. Accepted as ok. . Help is provided to correct the person, stop the bad course. If the person persists in the bad course they can not remain in good standing. It just doesn't happen that someone is actively engaged in say an adulterous affair and every just accepts it.

[Scarlett]

You and I have differing understandings of hostile. Rejecting people one has never met is a form of hostility. For me, genuine kindness is impossible where pre-set condemnation and judgment is present.

I didn't say I was rejecting persons I have never met. I said I don't seek out close friendships with people who are living contrary to the standards I believe God has set forth.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Scarlett

[LucyStoner]

I don't think you understand me. I didn't say free of sin. We have a congregation that strives to maintain proper conduct. Things happen. Humans make mistakes ( sin) . It isn't just tolerated. Accepted as ok. . Help is provided to correct the person, stop the bad course. If the person persists in the bad course they can not remain in good standing. It just doesn't happen that someone is actively engaged in say an adulterous affair and every just accepts it.

So you have some sins that you see as human mistakes but this one is wholly umreconciliable.

 

I understand you. I just disagree with you. Your position is as immoral and repugnant to me as the mere existence of gay people is to you.

[LucyStoner]

I didn't say I was reacting persons I have never met. I said I don't seek out close friendships with people who are living contrary to the standards I believe God has set forth.

You said here and have said before that you would not be friends with any gay person, not just that you wouldn't "seek out" a friendship with a gay person.

 

I'm glad you don't have gay family members who have to deal with your views.

[ebunny]

To your first line:  I think there are many parents who do NOT get this and it is hurting children.  On one hand, they will say that cultural gender stereotypes should be avoided and who cares what colors and toys our children like?  But they will use those exact stereotypes as reasons to encourage some kind of transition because it's all so fluid.  It's a disconnect.  (Not all parents are doing this, but I think most of us have seen stories where parents seem to be transitioning their child and even convincing him or her way before genuine dysphoria can be called upon.)

 

The other issue that makes it difficult for parents is that we must rely on medical and mental health communities who may or may not have missed the boat on how to best treat this disorder.  (Yes, disorder.)  There is so much we do not know yet experts and the culture speak in definite terms.  Where do parents and children go when BOTH want counseling for the mental health aspects in order to NOT live a disordered, transgender life?  Not many in those two expert communities feel free to pursue that option without being criticized harshly for not working towards transition.  And it doesn't even have to be religious reasons at ALL.  In how many books, tv specials and doctors offices do we hear the stories of those who REGRET transitioning?  Where were their stories in the National Geographic issue recently??  It's like that doesn't ever happen or those poor people have just been pressured to go against their true selves and that's just crap.

 

And I DO empathize because my daughter is working through this issue as my husband and I love her fiercely and want her HEALTHY.  We're conservative Christians and you would not believe how hard it is to find anyone (not from church) who will love her like we do, enough to say that she needs help and not a shopping trip to the men's department or a binder for her breasts.  I'm not being snarky--we ONLY hear about how it will help her to give in to what her brain is saying against the truth of the body she has. Other than that, the Christian community hasn't much to offer, either. (Although we certainly aren't sharing this with many people and she doesn't want to.)  I sincerely hope that changes.  This is how we love someone but not the sin, as cliche as that phrase is.  My daughter's brain is simply lying to her--people with other disorders have brains that do this, too, myself included--and I can't support the idea that one must base an identity on a lie.  It doesn't help that she hates her female body because of endometriosis and rotten periods, etc., too.  She has found such strength in finding other women who LOVE their bodies through this issue rather than hating it.  There IS help; we're going to find it.

 

I'm not Christian; I don't practice or follow any organised religion. I do have a lot of sympathy for your daughter, Endometriosis is a horrid painful condition.

 

Having said that, I am curious about your post. Can you explain the bolded; especially the "True selves". What do you mean by this and how does this reconcile with what you said about "brain lying to her".

 

 

 

[FaithManor]

So for those in faith traditions that encourage cutting oneself off from those that do not believe as you do or live as you do, or require it, or practice shunning and excommunication, what is that process like when cutting off your own child? Are you allowed to care for the child until the age of majority or are you to excommunicate at the first sign of non conforming? If before the child is able to be independent, do you try to find a home, or is homelessness an encouraged form of punishment for non compliance? Is any notice given to the child or is it immediate? Does he/she get to take anything from the home, a photo, clothing,food? Genuinely curious of what this process looks like.

 

The Amish boot them out without blinking an eye never to care for again, similar to Scientology. The story of Leah Vincent abandoned by her Hasidic family with no way to take care of herself and the heartbreaking, awful things that happened to her at 15 and for years after comes to mind. It is clear her parents hoped horrible things would happen, glad for their "sinner's punishment". Glad to be free of contamination - a phrase they used concerning her.

 

Is it like that? Should your offspring have health problems are they entitled to ask for family medical history? Are you required to decline being next of kin in a medical emergency should a hospital call? Can you ever see your child again? Are you considered to be in eternal danger if you break the shunning?

 

And in order to make sure there are no hypocrites in the congregation, what level of on going investigation into the private lives of the members and their children is conducted? How is that done? How often is it done? If it is not done, how does one reconcile the hypocrisy of unevenly applying the rules so that some sinners are charged with violations and some are not?

 

I am baffled by it. I cannot wrap my brain around it. We have friends whose son became addicted to cocaine and in an adled haze stabbed someone. They still went to see him in prison and wrote to him often.

[Scarlett]

So you have some sins that you see as human mistakes but this one is wholly umreconciliable.

 

I understand you. I just disagree with you. Your position is as immoral and repugnant to me as the mere existence of gay people is to you.

No, that is not what I believe at all nor what I said. Homosexuality as a practice is no different than any other serious sin. Edited January 24, 2017 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

You said here and have said before that you would not be friends with any gay person, not just that you wouldn't "seek out" a friendship with a gay person.

 

I'm glad you don't have gay family members who have to deal with your views.

It just wouldn't happen. Not that I would refuse. My life would be so far removed from theirs there would be no basis for a relationship.

[Scarlett]

So for those in faith traditions that encourage cutting oneself off from those that do not believe as you do or live as you do, or require it, or practice shunning and excommunication, what is that process like when cutting off your own child? Are you allowed to care for the child until the age of majority or are you to excommunicate at the first sign of non conforming? If before the child is able to be independent, do you try to find a home, or is homelessness an encouraged form of punishment for non compliance? Is any notice given to the child or is it immediate? Does he/she get to take anything from the home, a photo, clothing,food? Genuinely curious of what this process looks like.

 

The Amish boot them out without blinking an eye never to care for again, similar to Scientology. The story of Leah Vincent abandoned by her Hasidic family with no way to take care of herself and the heartbreaking, awful things that happened to her at 15 and for years after comes to mind. It is clear her parents hoped horrible things would happen, glad for their "sinner's punishment". Glad to be free of contamination - a phrase they used concerning her.

 

Is it like that? Should your offspring have health problems are they entitled to ask for family medical history? Are you required to decline being next of kin in a medical emergency should a hospital call? Can you ever see your child again? Are you considered to be in eternal danger if you break the shunning?

 

And in order to make sure there are no hypocrites in the congregation, what level of on going investigation into the private lives of the members and their children is conducted? How is that done? How often is it done? If it is not done, how does one reconcile the hypocrisy of unevenly applying the rules so that some sinners are charged with violations and some are not?

 

I am baffled by it. I cannot wrap my brain around it. We have friends whose son became addicted to cocaine and in an adled haze stabbed someone. They still went to see him in prison and wrote to him often.

I didn't know anyone kicked out their minor child.

[Scarlett]

It is interesting to me that so many on this board strongly encourage going no contact with family who are difficult or emotionally abusive. Your MIL gives your kids sweets against your wishes? Cut her off!

 

But Holy Cow don't cut off anyone who lives contrary to your moral code.

[Charlie]

It is interesting to me that so many on this board strongly encourage going no contact with family who are difficult or emotionally abusive. Your MIL gives your kids sweets against your wishes? Cut her off!

 

But Holy Cow don't cut off anyone who lives contrary to your moral code.

 

Do you consider people who do not agree with your moral code to be abusive? Would your son or step son, should either one, come out as queer, be interpreted as an act of hostility towards you?

[Scarlett]

Do you consider people who do not agree with your moral code to be abusive? Would your son or step son, should either one, come out as queer, be interpreted as an act of hostility towards you?

I consider that I get to say who I associate with. Just like people here who cut off nosy MILs or bossy FILs.

 

I know it isnt exactly the same but one is no more extreme than the other.

[Scarlett]

So you have some sins that you see as human mistakes but this one is wholly umreconciliable.

 

I understand you. I just disagree with you. Your position is as immoral and repugnant to me as the mere existence of gay people is to you.

The existence of gay people isn't particularly repugnant to me.

[Charlie]

I consider that I get to say who I associate with. Just like people here who cut off nosy MILs or bossy FILs.

 

I know it isnt exactly the same but one is no more extreme than the other.

 

That's like saying stealing paperclips from work is no more morally outrageous than stabbing and then then raping orphaned baby panda bears. After all, a sin is a sin is a sin. It isn't exactly the same, but one offense is no more extreme than the other.

 

I don't comprehend this.

 

You're equating homosexuality with abuse. In what way would a person in your life abuse you by virtue of being openly queer?

 

How did you become the victim of an lgbt teen in this hypothetical scenario? How does that work? Connect the dots for me, if you would.

[ebunny]

It is interesting to me that so many on this board strongly encourage going no contact with family who are difficult or emotionally abusive. Your MIL gives your kids sweets against your wishes? Cut her off!

 

But Holy Cow don't cut off anyone who lives contrary to your moral code.

 

I highly doubt the group of people that suggest the first "no contact with family who are difficult/emotionally abusive" ; are the same as the group of people that suggest  "don't cut off people who live contrary to your moral code".

 

There might be overlaps sure; but lets not conflate the two groups.

 

In fact, I'll go out on a limb and claim that people who accept non-binary gender and non-normative sexual orientation are also tolerant of extended family dynamics and idiosyncrasies.

[Scarlett]

That's like saying stealing paperclips from work is no more morally outrageous than stabbing and then then raping orphaned baby panda bears. After all, a sin is a sin is a sin. It isn't exactly the same, but one offense is no more extreme than the other.

 

I don't comprehend this.

 

You're equating homosexuality with abuse. In what way would a person in your life abuse you by virtue of being openly queer?

 

How did you become the victim of an lgbt teen in this hypothetical scenario? How does that work? Connect the dots for me, if you would.

Yeah I am tired and it probably doesn't make sense.

[Scarlett]

I highly doubt the group of people that suggest the first "no contact with family who are difficult/emotionally abusive" ; are the same as the group of people that suggest "don't cut off people who live contrary to your moral code".

 

There might be overlaps sure; but lets not conflate the two groups.

 

In fact, I'll go out on a limb and claim that people who accept non-binary gender and non-normative sexual orientation are also tolerant of extended family dynamics and idiosyncrasies.

I dont know. I am very bad at remembering who says or believes what on this vast board.

[Paige]

It just wouldn't happen. Not that I would refuse. My life would be so far removed from theirs there would be no basis for a relationship.

 

You may already have homosexual friends and you just don't know. Maybe they don't want to share with you because they know your position, or maybe they haven't come out to anyone yet.

[FaithManor]

I didn't know anyone kicked out their minor child.

It is acceptable in Hasidic circles in particular but also Amish communities and some fundamentalist sects that require marriage before the age of majority. Leah Vincent was put on a plane from PA to NYC at the age of 15 for writing letters to a boy violating the no contact with a member of the opposite sex who is not a family member rule. Her parents gave her no money but paid one month's rent for an efficiency apartment in Brooklyn. After being raped, and unable to find another way to support herself with so little education, she resorted to prostitution which didn't work out too well as a bread winning plan. Her parents were never charged.

 

Amish families here excommunicate at 16. It is total banishment, no assistance. No criminal charges either. Religious liberty and all that. A high school acquaintance of mine was excommunicated from her very strict Presbyterian family for becoming pregnant. They changed the locks one day when she was at school and never spoke to her again. No abandonment charges.

 

I just can't wrap my brain around the resolve that it takes to do that to one's child. It is hard for me to imagine being willing to belong to a religious community that would require a parent to do it in order to not be apostate.

[Scarlett]

You may already have homosexual friends and you just don't know. Maybe they don't want to share with you because they know your position, or maybe they haven't come out to anyone yet.

May be.

[Scarlett]

It is acceptable in Hasidic circles in particular but also Amish communities and some fundamentalist sects that require marriage before the age of majority. Leah Vincent was put on a plane from PA to NYC at the age of 15 for writing letters to a boy violating the no contact with a member of the opposite sex who is not a family member rule. Her parents gave her no money but paid one month's rent for an efficiency apartment in Brooklyn. After being raped, and unable to find another way to support herself with so little education, she resorted to prostitution which didn't work out too well as a bread winning plan. Her parents were never charged.

 

Amish families here excommunicate at 16. It is total banishment, no assistance. No criminal charges either. Religious liberty and all that. A high school acquaintance of mine was excommunicated from her very strict Presbyterian family for becoming pregnant. They changed the locks one day when she was at school and never spoke to her again. No abandonment charges.

 

I just can't wrap my brain around the resolve that it takes to do that to one's child. It is hard for me to imagine being willing to belong to a religious community that would require a parent to do it in order to not be apostate.

Yes that seems extreme.

[Charlie]

Yeah I am tired and it probably doesn't make sense.

 

It not only doesn't make sense, it's insulting. You're telling me my child is abusive by virtue of their refusal to capitulate to your personal sexual standards. If you don't have a reason for such an accusation, I'd appreciate your retracting that.

 

[Χά�ων]

I didn't know anyone kicked out their minor child.

Sadly, it is not uncommon. :(

[Scarlett]

It not only doesn't make sense, it's insulting. You're telling me my child is abusive by virtue of their refusal to capitulate to your personal sexual standards. If you don't have a reason for such an accusation, I'd appreciate your retracting that.

 

Huh? I don't know your kid and said nothing about your kid. My only comparison was that some think nothing of cutting off relatives for all sorts of reasons but to do so for moral reasons is seen as horrible.

 

And I did say I am tired and it was perhaps a bad comparison.

[Scarlett]

Sadly, it is not uncommon. :(

I lived in a Mennonite community growing up and an Amish community now. Never once heard of such a thing.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Scarlett

[Joker]

Who is talking about your son? I didn't address you.

 

I simply made the very true observation that some will be able to take certain actions and some will not, because of their faith. That is simply one example, of many.

A poster asked you if you felt gender identity was a choice and I responded to your answer to that question. I don't care that you weren't addressing me personally.

[Joker]

I'm growing tired of the, "...but I wasn't talking about YOUR kid" line. Who is it you think you are talking about? The LGBT community includes many of our children and loved ones. They are real people.

[Scarlett]

I just remembered that I saw a young girl that is lesbian at a memorial service this weekend. She sat in front of Dh and me. Memorial service was for an elderly sister of our congregation....this girl brought a girl with her and I heard it was her girlfriend. She seemed out of her mind . I am pretty sure she was on drugs. I went to offer her Kleenex but my friend next to me beat me to it.

 

So there is a homosexual I have had limited contact with.

[Scarlett]

I'm growing tired of the, "...but I wasn't talking about YOUR kid" line. Who is it you think you are talking about? The LGBT community includes many of our children and loved ones. They are real people.

Sure they are. But having an opinion about homosexuality doesn't mean I am speaking about or have any knowledge of your child.

[Charlie]

Huh? I don't know your kid and said nothing about your kid. My only comparison was that some think nothing of cutting off relatives for all sorts of reasons but to do so for moral reasons is seen as horrible.

 

And I did say I am tired and it was perhaps a bad comparison.

 

 

I disagree it's that simple. Cutting off relatives because of abusive behavior is a moral decision because abuse is hurtful, it's detrimental to the emotional, psychological, and physical development of children, as well as to damaging to the well-being of the other adults who suffer from the abuse. Living with a gay sibling isn't detrimental to the emotional, psychological, or physical development of children, so your analogy is off by too wide a margin to work. It's not only off, it's an insulting, offensive comparison to make. You're comparing lgbt teens, like mine, to abusive people who hurt other people. My question is how you understand being queer to be analogous to abuse, and if you don't, would you retract that comparison?

[Scarlett]

I disagree it's that simple. Cutting off relatives because of abusive behavior is a moral decision because abuse is hurtful, it's detrimental to the emotional, psychological, and physical development of children, as well as to damaging to the well-being of the other adults who suffer from the abuse. Living with a gay sibling isn't detrimental to the emotional, psychological, or physical development of children, so your analogy is off by too wide a margin to work. It's not only off, it's an insulting, offensive comparison to make. You're comparing lgbt teens, like mine, to abusive people who hurt other people. My question is how you understand being queer to be analogous to abuse, and if you don't, would you retract that comparison?

Some people believe moral corruption is harmful.

[Charlie]

Some people believe moral corruption is harmful.

 

You said to me earlier you don't eschew facts surrounding sexuality, namely lgbt variety. I'm going to hold you to that. We can measure the harm of behavior by the emotional, psychological, and physiological effects on an individual. These are facts we can obtain. Are you now suggesting that living with a gay sibling is as harmful as living with an abusive parent? Are these two scenarios roughly equal in measure emotionally, psychologically, and physiologically? If that is the case, I would appreciate seeing some objective evidence for this measurable harm done by living with a gay sibling because I seriously doubt such a study has ever been presented. Either that, or I would be compelled to consider you to be eschewing these facts for reasons I don't want to speculate, but if you want to clarify that would be fine, too.

[Ravin]

To your first line: I think there are many parents who do NOT get this and it is hurting children. On one hand, they will say that cultural gender stereotypes should be avoided and who cares what colors and toys our children like? But they will use those exact stereotypes as reasons to encourage some kind of transition because it's all so fluid. It's a disconnect. (Not all parents are doing this, but I think most of us have seen stories where parents seem to be transitioning their child and even convincing him or her way before genuine dysphoria can be called upon.)

 

The other issue that makes it difficult for parents is that we must rely on medical and mental health communities who may or may not have missed the boat on how to best treat this disorder. (Yes, disorder.) There is so much we do not know yet experts and the culture speak in definite terms. Where do parents and children go when BOTH want counseling for the mental health aspects in order to NOT live a disordered, transgender life? Not many in those two expert communities feel free to pursue that option without being criticized harshly for not working towards transition. And it doesn't even have to be religious reasons at ALL. In how many books, tv specials and doctors offices do we hear the stories of those who REGRET transitioning? Where were their stories in the National Geographic issue recently?? It's like that doesn't ever happen or those poor people have just been pressured to go against their true selves and that's just crap.

 

And I DO empathize because my daughter is working through this issue as my husband and I love her fiercely and want her HEALTHY. We're conservative Christians and you would not believe how hard it is to find anyone (not from church) who will love her like we do, enough to say that she needs help and not a shopping trip to the men's department or a binder for her breasts. I'm not being snarky--we ONLY hear about how it will help her to give in to what her brain is saying against the truth of the body she has. Other than that, the Christian community hasn't much to offer, either. (Although we certainly aren't sharing this with many people and she doesn't want to.) I sincerely hope that changes. This is how we love someone but not the sin, as cliche as that phrase is. My daughter's brain is simply lying to her--people with other disorders have brains that do this, too, myself included--and I can't support the idea that one must base an identity on a lie. It doesn't help that she hates her female body because of endometriosis and rotten periods, etc., too. She has found such strength in finding other women who LOVE their bodies through this issue rather than hating it. There IS help; we're going to find it.

I hope for your child's sake they can get real, competent help before you and your religious "help" drive them to suicide.

[Ravin]

I'm not Christian; I don't practice or follow any organised religion. I do have a lot of sympathy for your daughter, Endometriosis is a horrid painful condition.

 

Having said that, I am curious about your post. Can you explain the bolded; especially the "True selves". What do you mean by this and how does this reconcile with what you said about "brain lying to her".

The lie is that reproductive organs are more important than the brain and fundamental parts of one's sense of self.

[Frances]

I lived in a Mennonite community growing up and an Amish community now. Never once heard of such a thing.

Seriously? There's lots of books and documentaries about the practice among the Amish.

[Χά�ων]

Never mind. This thread is moving way too fast for me to keep up and participate in in a productive manner. My

Edited January 24, 2017 by Χά�ων

[6packofun]

I'm not Christian; I don't practice or follow any organised religion. I do have a lot of sympathy for your daughter, Endometriosis is a horrid painful condition.

 

Having said that, I am curious about your post. Can you explain the bolded; especially the "True selves". What do you mean by this and how does this reconcile with what you said about "brain lying to her".

 

People have been telling her (and me) that she needs to go with how she feels (and the mental solution that she must really be a boy) and THAT is her "true self."  I disagree that her mind or brain is correct in this assumption.

 

Anorexic people's minds convince tell them that they are fat when they are not.

Anxious people's minds tell them that everyone hates them or that there is always something to fear.

Depressed people's minds tell them that there is no reason or hope for living.

Narcissists' minds tell them that they are better and more important than everyone else.

People who self-mutilate believe their own minds that cutting and disfiguring *eases* their pain.

 

And on and on.  I don't mean for this to sound like I think she is possessed or something.  lol  I just think that our minds can get tripped up in how it reconciles fears, discomfort, confusion, anguish, etc. and come to the wrong conclusion about what needs to be fixed--or NOT fixed.

 

By the way, any argument that this isn't like other disorders because transgender people aren't hurting anyone else doesn't hold water with me.  The suicidal person isn't technically hurting anyone else.  And anyone who thinks that they can resolve their disorder by removing or adding body parts and undergoing hormone treatments that their bodies were not meant to have, can't understand that they ARE hurting someone.  (Or they don't care, but I don't think that's usually the case.)

[Joker]

People have been telling her (and me) that she needs to go with how she feels (and the mental solution that she must really be a boy) and THAT is her "true self." I disagree that her mind or brain is correct in this assumption.

 

Anorexic people's minds convince tell them that they are fat when they are not.

Anxious people's minds tell them that everyone hates them or that there is always something to fear.

Depressed people's minds tell them that there is no reason or hope for living.

Narcissists' minds tell them that they are better and more important than everyone else.

People who self-mutilate believe their own minds that cutting and disfiguring *eases* their pain.

 

And on and on. I don't mean for this to sound like I think she is possessed or something. lol I just think that our minds can get tripped up in how it reconciles fears, discomfort, confusion, anguish, etc. and come to the wrong conclusion about what needs to be fixed--or NOT fixed.

 

By the way, any argument that this isn't like other disorders because transgender people aren't hurting anyone else doesn't hold water with me. The suicidal person isn't technically hurting anyone else. And anyone who thinks that they can resolve their disorder by removing or adding body parts and undergoing hormone treatments that their bodies were not meant to have, can't understand that they ARE hurting someone. (Or they don't care, but I don't think that's usually the case.)

I wanted to let you know that my transgender son has quit all medications and doesn't need intensive help for anxiety and depression anymore since living as a male. We fought it and he ended up in a mental health hospital so he wouldn't kill himself. Now, he's just a normal teen and happy.

 

Maybe your case is different, I hope it is for your dc, but identifying as a male has saved my son's life.

[ebunny]

People have been telling her (and me) that she needs to go with how she feels (and the mental solution that she must really be a boy) and THAT is her "true self."  I disagree that her mind or brain is correct in this assumption.

 

Anorexic people's minds convince tell them that they are fat when they are not.

Anxious people's minds tell them that everyone hates them or that there is always something to fear.

Depressed people's minds tell them that there is no reason or hope for living.

Narcissists' minds tell them that they are better and more important than everyone else.

People who self-mutilate believe their own minds that cutting and disfiguring *eases* their pain.

 

And on and on.  I don't mean for this to sound like I think she is possessed or something.  lol  I just think that our minds can get tripped up in how it reconciles fears, discomfort, confusion, anguish, etc. and come to the wrong conclusion about what needs to be fixed--or NOT fixed.

 

By the way, any argument that this isn't like other disorders because transgender people aren't hurting anyone else doesn't hold water with me.  The suicidal person isn't technically hurting anyone else.  And anyone who thinks that they can resolve their disorder by removing or adding body parts and undergoing hormone treatments that their bodies were not meant to have, can't understand that they ARE hurting someone.  (Or they don't care, but I don't think that's usually the case.)

 

Anorexia, NPD (not the colloquial social media version of 'my mom has NPD), depression and anxiety are categorised as mental disorders by mental health professionals in the DSM 5.

 Gender dysphoria is considered a condition not a disorder under DSM 5.

 

Secondly, using religion as a solution for your daughters immense physical and mental torment (which I'm fairly certain she's going through) is so.....medieval.

 

Thirdly, one would, I suppose 'add' or 'remove' body parts if it is a danger to one's health.? Hysterectomy, mastectomy are just a few examples.

 

Lastly, and maybe this question is meant for christians at large- What would you do if a child is born missing an ovary or a uterus or some other reproductive organ? How would you raise him/her? and what if that upbringing clashes with how the child feels internally?

 

[quark]

Anorexic people's minds convince tell them that they are fat when they are not.

Anxious people's minds tell them that everyone hates them or that there is always something to fear.

Depressed people's minds tell them that there is no reason or hope for living.

Narcissists' minds tell them that they are better and more important than everyone else.

People who self-mutilate believe their own minds that cutting and disfiguring *eases* their pain.

 

Sometime in the 1970s, both the American Psychiatric and American Psychological Associations removed homosexuality from the DSM and I believe studies on transgender folks are also showing that the "disorder" aspect comes from the stress imposed on them by societal expectations and not due to some pre-existing/ underlying mental illness.

Edited January 24, 2017 by quark

[quark]

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Edited January 24, 2017 by quark

[Peaceseeker]

Wow, so much pain and anger and sadness in these discussions.

 

I would just like to say that I am a Christian. I was also an agnostic and vehemently anti-Christian for over two decades (just for perspective) The verse I try to live my life by now is 1 Timothy 1:15 "Christ came in the world to save sinners, of who I am the worst"

 

I am not confident enough in my holiness to stand in judgement over another. I am surely the very last in line. Repentance is not something I ask others to do, but rather a daily struggle to control my own thoughts, words, and deeds. I am far too busy trying to dig the plank out of my own eye to worry about the speck in my brother or sister's eye. My own plank is quite large and I am sure it will take my whole life to clear it.

 

I am sorry for everyone who has been hurt by a Christian or by the church. I know what it feels like to be excluded. There is literally nothing my kids could do to make me stop loving them. I would never turn my back on them. I think that is how God must feel about us, otherwise he would have surely given up on me long ago.

 

Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.

Edited January 24, 2017 by CoffeeMama11