Anyone Celebrate *real* Halloween?

[KarenNC]

Again, that depends on whether you are trying to BE tolerant or not.

 

So I took it back to the door and told him we didn't appreciate it. He wouldn't take it back so I dropped in front of him and left.

 

the kids went up to a stranger's house and asked for stuff.

They were given something which was promptly littered on the giver's property. That doesn't even sound courteous, much less tolerant.

 

So to ask the question that was asked earlier:

where is religious tolerance in America?

I'm still wondering that myself.

 

This is not about "tolerating someone else's way of celebrating Halloween or their own religion". It is about covert targeting of young children for religious intimidation and proselytizing under false pretenses.

 

Let's look at what was happening.

 

The children were participating in a well known American secular social activity with pretty standard parameters understood by parents: the children dress up in costumes and walk around neighborhoods on a particular night known to all, folks who want to participate by allowing them to come to the door to request candy on this particular night turn on their lights and answer the door, thus signaling their intent to participate. Those who do not want to engage in this do not turn on their lights or answer their doors and parents do not allow their children to knock on those doors to avoid bothering the people inside. There are many things a parent can reasonably expect not to happen in this situation---a person to answer the door nude (even if he enjoys celebrating Halloween in the nude), the person to take candy from the children's bags and slam the door (even if this is how he enjoys celebrating Halloween), sexually explicit material will not be placed in the bags of young children (even if this is how he enjoys celebrating Halloween) or other inappropriate activities aimed at young children.

 

This man clearly chose to target young children for proselytization into his religion without their parents' permission, deliberately setting out to lure them to his door under false pretenses for that specific purpose. This is not just an "alternate way of celebrating Halloween" any more than the other inappropriate activities I've mentioned. It's just flat inappropriate.

 

The parent returned the man's property to him and left. This was a civil response to an uncivil act. It was only "littering" because the man was not honorable enough to take back his own property when confronted over his inappropriate behavior. Actually I'm rather surprised he didn't take it back to give to some other unsuspecting small child.

 

Yes, I am *very* intolerant of such behavior *regardless of the intent behind it* on the part of *any* religion. If someone wants to proselytize, do so to other adults, not covertly and deceptively to young children.

 

As I said in another thread..... WWJD? I have a pretty good idea that it wouldn't be this.

[Peek a Boo]

LOL...I have to question the assertion that a person who chooses to tell small children they risk going to hell for celebrating Halloween is just celebrating it himself, in his own *special* way.

 

Wanna try that again?

 

did they say they risk going to hell for celebrating Halloween?

If THAT's the case, then i agree with you ;)

 

But usually it's that one is going to hell for not Believing in Christ or God or Allah or whatever.

 

There are TONS of christians who have great fun at halloween AND see it as an opportunity to minister to people who show up volunatrily on their doorstep.

[Peek a Boo]

Also, if he wouldn't take it, and she didn't want it, setting it down was the best option. Putting it in the mailbox *would* have been a crime.

 

 

setting it down vs dropping it.

ok.

 

you are absolutely correct about the mailbox.

 

maybe the best option would be to not go up to a stranger's home w/ expectations. ;)

[Peek a Boo]

Well... to split hairs, it seems that she tried to give it back first, and then dropped it there in response to his own intolerance.

 

I just don't think a person has to participate in someone else's religious agenda to be tolerant of religion in America.

 

 

Who said she was participating in his religious agenda?

since when does throwing away tract that someone gives you participating in their religious agenda?

if anything, by returning it you keep more tracts 'in the system' than by throwing it away.

 

I didn't say HE was tolerant, i was just discussing what one's definition of tolerance was.

[Peek a Boo]

Not "stuff"- CANDY - or a FUN trinket of some kind. I don't take my daughter trick or treating so she can knock on stranger's doors and ask for STUFF.

 

---

It's with the people who turn off their lights because they don't want to participate. It's with the kids who don't make fun of the other kids who aren't allowed to dress up. It's with the members of churches, synagogues, and mosques who share in fellowship with each other but don't try to cram their personal version of their personal religion down other people's throats.

 

so in other words, as long as people are behaving the way you want them to, you'll be 'tolerant' of their beliefs or how they want to celebrate holidays?

 

o...k......

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

maybe the best option would be to not go up to a stranger's home w/ expectations. ;)

 

Yeah, maybe we should just cancel Halloween. That's the "goal" right?

[Peek a Boo]

Yeah, maybe we should just cancel Halloween. That's the "goal" right?

 

no --MY goal is to have fun, regardless how another chooses to celebrate the holiday :D

 

eta: OH --and i would suggest that if one is so concerned about tracts that they do a Halloween party w/ friends instead. there's no need to cancel a holiday.....

Edited October 20, 2008 by Peek a Boo

[Peek a Boo]

This is not about "tolerating someone else's way of celebrating Halloween or their own religion". It is about covert targeting of young children for religious intimidation and proselytizing under false pretenses.

 

Let's look at what was happening.

 

The children were participating in a well known American secular social activity with pretty standard parameters understood by parents: the children dress up in costumes and walk around neighborhoods on a particular night known to all, folks who want to participate by allowing them to come to the door to request candy on this particular night turn on their lights and answer the door, thus signaling their intent to participate. Those who do not want to engage in this do not turn on their lights or answer their doors and parents do not allow their children to knock on those doors to avoid bothering the people inside. There are many things a parent can reasonably expect not to happen in this situation---a person to answer the door nude (even if he enjoys celebrating Halloween in the nude), the person to take candy from the children's bags and slam the door (even if this is how he enjoys celebrating Halloween), sexually explicit material will not be placed in the bags of young children (even if this is how he enjoys celebrating Halloween) or other inappropriate activities aimed at young children.

 

This man clearly chose to target young children for proselytization into his religion without their parents' permission, deliberately setting out to lure them to his door under false pretenses for that specific purpose. This is not just an "alternate way of celebrating Halloween" any more than the other inappropriate activities I've mentioned. It's just flat inappropriate.

 

The parent returned the man's property to him and left. This was a civil response to an uncivil act. It was only "littering" because the man was not honorable enough to take back his own property when confronted over his inappropriate behavior. Actually I'm rather surprised he didn't take it back to give to some other unsuspecting small child.

 

Yes, I am *very* intolerant of such behavior *regardless of the intent behind it* on the part of *any* religion. If someone wants to proselytize, do so to other adults, not covertly and deceptively to young children.

 

As I said in another thread..... WWJD? I have a pretty good idea that it wouldn't be this.

 

WWJD --the same Jesus that taught out loud in the open regardless whether parents wnated their children to hear that or not?

the same jesus who took a whip to the tables in the temple?

 

which aspect of Jesus are we talking about?

 

But NONE of your examples are anything like handing a child a piece of paper.

They are, in fact, illegal.

 

and again, you are assuming it is a secular holiday in a country w/ freedom OF religion --not freedom FROM religion.

 

eta: discussion about children receiving tracts for halloween has been around for YEARS, so this isn't an unknown activity for Halloween. maybe unwanted, but not unknown. kinda like santa stuff is GOING to be there whether Christians want him or not.....

 

and like i said --i don't argue that it may very well have been "inappropriate" --that wasn't my point at all. I find plenty of things promoted by atheists and other Christians to be inappropriate too ;)

 

But if one is going to ask about tolerance --which is when i initially responded-- then we need to examine what all is encompassed in that definition of tolerance.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

so in other words, as long as people are behaving the way you want them to, you'll be 'tolerant' of their beliefs or how they want to celebrate holidays?

 

o...k......

 

So you would be okay if I went to a family style restaurant where your family was eating, jumped up on the table and sang "Shout at the Devil" very loudly on my birthday because that's how I chose to celebrate?

 

And you would be okay with bringing your kids to an Easter egg hunt advertised as a family-friendly event only to find pamphlets about devil worship stuck inside the eggs instead of candy/prizes because that is the way the organizers chose to celebrate?

 

That's cool.

[Laura K (NC)]

I can hand out cans of soda with monsters on them, or little plastic toys, or pencils, or good-for-you pretzels, or apples (though Snow White pretty much put the kabosh on that).

 

I've even heard the argument that we shouldn't give out candy on Halloween because American kids are just too darn fat. Fortunately, that hasn't been legislated yet.

 

There isn't a rule that says that you have to give candy on Halloween. It's not "trick-or-candy." And if we really took "trick-or-treat" literally, then I'd have to get the beggars who come to my door to sign a release so they wouldn't return later that night because my snickers offering interfered with their peanut allergy (or my "healthy" snack insulted their delicate sensibilities) to key my car or run over my mailbox (we have some pretty old "trick-or-treaters" in our neighborhood. ISTM that if there's narrow candy parameters enforced, some might want to slap some age restrictions on there, too. I mean, what's to keep some 40-year-old bimbette with a boob job from coming to my door and soliciting a "treat" from us, dressed in a slinky nurse get-up? I mean, come on. I've seen one of these at the door "offering," if you know what I mean. We don't make a fuss; we just avoid that freakish house from now on. Tolerance? Shall we bury the bimbette or praise her? [name that speech!] How's that for a tangent? :tongue_smilie:)

 

The world is full of all kinds. Either we :chillpill: about them ... or not. But selective intolerance? :nopity:.

[Mekanamom]

Who said she was participating in his religious agenda?

since when does throwing away tract that someone gives you participating in their religious agenda?

if anything, by returning it you keep more tracts 'in the system' than by throwing it away.

 

I didn't say HE was tolerant, i was just discussing what one's definition of tolerance was.

 

I was saying that by taking a tract she found inappropriate, she would be participating in the man's religious agenda. He gives, she takes = participation. By giving it back, she was refusing to participate, that's all.

 

She was being tolerant without participating by giving it back (in my opinion).

 

if anything, by returning it you keep more tracts 'in the system' than by throwing it away.

 

 

Exactly. Sounds fairly tolerant.

 

Now, I would personally just toss such a thing. But I don't see how it is intolerant to try and give it back, and then finally leave it there if she didn't want to take it.

[Peek a Boo]

So you would be okay if I went to a family style restaurant where your family was eating, jumped up on the table and sang "Shout at the Devil" very loudly on my birthday because that's how I chose to celebrate?

 

And you would be okay with bringing your kids to an Easter egg hunt advertised as a family-friendly event only to find pamphlets about devil worship stuck inside the eggs instead of candy/prizes because that is the way the organizers chose to celebrate?

 

That's cool.

 

actually, I would be ok w/ that. We always jump at opportunities to discuss other people's poor decisions ;)

 

I'm a big believer in learning from other people's mistakes :D

 

but i do realize other Christians would be appalled. of course, other Christians might not let their kids spend the night w/ a boy living w/ his mom and her lesbian partner, or hang out and do science w/ atheists. So i readily admit i'm not a typical fundamentalist Christian, altho i do have very fundamental beliefs on many Christian issues......

[HRAAB]

This is getting ridiculous. I'm sorry I even shared that event.

 

For the record, two little girls, about 6 and 4, dressed, as I recall, as a bumble bee and a bunny, walked up to a house with their rather conservative parents behind, rang the doorbell, put on their biggest smiles and said Trick or Treat. Now, in the American tradition, were my children wrong to expect a tootsie pop or a pack of smarties in response for a big smile and a trick or treat? I don't think so. If this man felt he needed to evangelize, as a parent I expect him to confront me, the parent. I don't appreciate anyone going after my children, especially that young.

 

I did try to hand it back to him, he wouldn't take it so I left it. On his doorstep. I do not agree I was being intolerant in trying to return it. I don't think I said I didn't appreciate it until he refused to take it back. I never asked for it in the first place. I guess I'm still dumb enough to think people hand out candy on Halloween. Like they did when I was a kid.

 

Janet

[Peek a Boo]

I was saying that by taking a tract she found inappropriate, she would be participating in the man's religious agenda. He gives, she takes = participation. By giving it back, she was refusing to participate, that's all.

 

She was being tolerant without participating by giving it back (in my opinion).

 

 

 

Exactly. Sounds fairly tolerant.

 

Now, I would personally just toss such a thing. But I don't see how it is intolerant to try and give it back, and then finally leave it there if she didn't want to take it.

 

and again --what is tolerance?

is tolerance foisting your ideas of a belief on another person-- like she did when she not only approached the guy about his tract, but then left it littered on his lawn?

is INtolerance handing out a religious tract on a night when people are coming to your door willingly looking for a handout?

 

but if one is preaching tolerance, then it would seem INtolerant to leave his tract and then complain that HE was being intolerant for handing it out in the first place. That i simply do NOT get.......

 

again -- I don't tend to hold to the tolerance view that i hear so much: i hear more people cry for tolerance and then turn right around and BE intolerant. Kinda like secular folk looking at Christians and calling them hypocrites.

[Peek a Boo]

This is getting ridiculous. I'm sorry I even shared that event.

 

For the record, two little girls, about 6 and 4, dressed, as I recall, as a bumble bee and a bunny, walked up to a house with their rather conservative parents behind, rang the doorbell, put on their biggest smiles and said Trick or Treat. Now, in the American tradition, were my children wrong to expect a tootsie pop or a pack of smarties in response for a big smile and a trick or treat? I don't think so. If this man felt he needed to evangelize, as a parent I expect him to confront me, the parent. I don't appreciate anyone going after my children, especially that young.

 

I did try to hand it back to him, he wouldn't take it so I left it. On his doorstep. I do not agree I was being intolerant in trying to return it. I don't think I said I didn't appreciate it until he refused to take it back. I never asked for it in the first place. I guess I'm still dumb enough to think people hand out candy on Halloween. Like they did when I was a kid.

 

Janet

 

 

Janet, i don't necessarily disagree w/ what you did --as I mentioned, i don't subscribe to the 'tolerance' bandwagon. There are plenty of things that I am intolerant about, and I usually get chewed out about those from people screaming for tolerance. ;)

 

people DO still hand out candy on Halloween [you did get plenty, didn't you??], but for YEARS they have also been handing out tracts --that's a reasonable expectation in this day and age. Am i dumb enough to insist on checking my kids' treat bags to see what idiotic stuff might be in it? Like the authorities recommended parents do when I was a kid??

 

My initial response was for those that DO subscribe to some view of 'tolerance' -esp when it comes to religion --or lack thereof.

[Joanne]

In Alcoholics Anonymous there is phrase that is used (often out of context) from our "Big Book" (the text book of recovery using AA principles) that talks about "love and tolerance is our code".

 

"Tolerance" is often a topic at AA meetings. I never offer it as a topic because usually what it comes down to is "I am a superior human to all these imbeciles who think the wrong things or do things that are stupid. Yet, I, full of incredibly great character, do not beat the tarp out of them."

 

My xh had some great "lines" and even......wisdom. He used to say "Tolerance is the lowest expression of love". I think he may be right.

[HRAAB]

Okay, I get it. This is all about tolerance. I'm still worked over giving little kids tracts. Duh. Excuse my extreme mental slowness, but my head if full, I can't breathe and my throat feels like it is on fire.

 

While as an adult I 'try' to practice tolerance towards others, up to my limit, when it comes to people acting in a way I consider inappropriate towards my children, tolerance is not a virtue I can claim.

 

So now that I'm looking at it through a different set of lenses, I'll admit: I might not have been acting in a tolerant manner towards his evangelization tactics.

 

Now can we all agree on something? Pretty please.

 

Janet

Edited October 20, 2008 by Ishki

[Mekanamom]

and again --what is tolerance?

is tolerance foisting your ideas of a belief on another person-- like she did when she not only approached the guy about his tract, but then left it littered on his lawn?

is INtolerance handing out a religious tract on a night when people are coming to your door willingly looking for a handout?

 

but if one is preaching tolerance, then it would seem INtolerant to leave his tract and then complain that HE was being intolerant for handing it out in the first place. That i simply do NOT get.......

 

again -- I don't tend to hold to the tolerance view that i hear so much: i hear more people cry for tolerance and then turn right around and BE intolerant. Kinda like secular folk looking at Christians and calling them hypocrites.

 

Well, I was kind of going on the definition of tolerance that you provided:

 

sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b: the act of allowing something : toleration

 

 

If someone gives you something that you don't want, I don't see how it is violating the above definition to attempt to give it back, and then leave it there if it is not accepted. Giving it back isn't the same as being unsympathetic or unindulgent. She wasn't telling him to stop his beliefs or his practices... she just didn't participate in them by taking the tract.

 

Is it foisting your ideas on someone else by simply refusing to take their ideas with you -even to the nearest garbage can?

 

I agree that tolerance can be tricky. I know I am intolerant of the actions of others that appear (to me) to be intolerant. LOL, I try to remind myself of that often!

[Peek a Boo]

Okay, I get it. This is all about tolerance. I'm still worked over giving little kids tracts. Duh. Excuse my extreme mental slowness, but my head if full, I can't breathe and my throat feels like it is on fire.

 

While as an adult I 'try' to practice tolerance towards others, up to my limit, when it comes to people acting in a way I consider inappropriate towards my children, tolerance is not a virtue I can claim.

 

So now that I'm looking at it through a different set of lenses, I'll admit: I might not have been acting in a tolerant manner towards his evangelization tactics.

 

Now can we all agree on something? Pretty please.

 

Janet

 

i happen to agree w/ everything you wrote :D

[Peek a Boo]

If someone gives you something that you don't want, I don't see how it is violating the above definition to attempt to give it back, and then leave it there if it is not accepted. Giving it back isn't the same as being unsympathetic or unindulgent. She wasn't telling him to stop his beliefs or his practices... she just didn't participate in them by taking the tract.

 

Is it foisting your ideas on someone else by simply refusing to take their ideas with you -even to the nearest garbage can?

 

I agree that tolerance can be tricky. I know I am intolerant of the actions of others that appear (to me) to be intolerant. LOL, I try to remind myself of that often!

 

this is where i think the tolerance angle falls into lotsa questions --many times one's decision to NOT accept a person's beliefs or ideas is seen AS intolerant.

[HRAAB]

i happen to agree w/ everything you wrote :D

 

Whew!

 

Janet

[Kris]

Okay, I get it. This is all about tolerance. I'm still worked over giving little kids tracts. Duh. Excuse my extreme mental slowness, but my head if full, I can't breathe and my throat feels like it is on fire.

 

While as an adult I 'try' to practice tolerance towards others, up to my limit, when it comes to people acting in a way I consider inappropriate towards my children, tolerance is not a virtue I can claim.

 

So now that I'm looking at it through a different set of lenses, I'll admit: I might not have been acting in a tolerant manner towards his evangelization tactics.

 

Now can we all agree on something? Pretty please.

 

Janet

 

Well, I don't think you were intolerant. I don't think "tolerance" includes having to gratefully accept anything and everything someone else wants to share with you or your kids. Maybe I'm making up my own definition, but I consider myself "tolerant" in that I really don't care what people do or what they believe as long as they aren't intent on shoving it down my throat. Once they cross *that* line, they are the ones who are not "tolerant." Maybe there's a better word for it -- who knows?

 

So much for the fun thread, eh?

[Murphy101]

This tract was ugly. It had blood and dead bodies. Fire and brimstone and devils torturing the poor lost soul.

 

hmmm, gotta say that's fairly typical halloween stuff to me. Also, in the Catholic tradition, All Saints and All Souls are often about learning about martyrs, which rarely had a pretty end.:) My dd wanted to be St. Lucy, complete with bloody eyes on a platter, but she decided it wouldn't work unless she could cover her real eyes but still let her see where she was going somehow.

 

Probably 50% or more of the kids coming to that guy's door are dressed up like vampires, zombies, mutilated whatevers and so forth complete with their mother's reddest lipstick smeared for bloody effect. Frankly, the stuff on that tract was probably cleaner than what a lot of kids these days watch on tv or read.

 

It happens Halloween is one of my favorite holidays!

 

In this particuliar one, my oldest son was dressed as a skeleton with a beating heart. Complete with this little bulb thing he could sqeeze in his hand that would cause red "blood" to squirt through the exposed chest, a la St. Sebastian.:D

 

I'd have just tossed the chick tract and gone my merry way without giving it much thought at all.

 

To me, getting ticked that you didn't get what you expected is just as bad as those kids who come to my door and say, "awwww. That sucks. Don't you have any ___?" Just rude. If you go knocking on someone's door at halloween you get whatever trick or treat you get. Don't like it? Then just :chillpill: and chew some chocloate as you toss the chick tract in the trash.:D

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.chick.com/seasonal/halloween/ Generally speaking these little gems are handed out to innocent children and their loving parents. Yuck ... I am Catholic so these particlular publications really irk me. If someone chose to put this in my dd's bag they are exercising their right to free speech. I will exercise my right to free speech by destroying it with my hands in front of the individual who deigns it appropriate to put in my childs little cauldron /jack o lantern as this pamphlet is filled with offensive ,bigoted , false information by my standards. That is all. Tolerant does not mean accepting an affront from others. It means I respect his /her civil rights to hand out what they see fit and I exercise my free speech rights to burn it in the street-its all good. Your right to speak via actions or words ends where it affects the rights of others. There is nothing wrong per se with the tactic other than intruding upon parental jurisdiction where a child is concerned and a lack of taste .

[Jennifer3141]

Not "stuff"- CANDY - or a FUN trinket of some kind. I don't take my daughter trick or treating so she can knock on stranger's doors and ask for STUFF.

 

I am having flashbacks to a scene in an Adam Sandler movie where he takes a little boy trick or treating. The man who answers the door doesn't have candy, so Adam Sandler makes him give the kid CD's, his watch, etc.

 

 

I now have this mental image of you walking away from a house with an incomplete set of Fiesta ware now on Hallows Eve.

 

"Trick or STUFF, please!" :D

Stuff?? :glare:

 

Jen

[Murphy101]

http://www.chick.com/seasonal/halloween/ Generally speaking these little gems are handed out to innocent children and their loving parents. Yuck ... I am Catholic so these particlular publications really irk me. If someone chose to put this in my dd's bag they are exercising their right to free speech. I will exercise my right to free speech by destroying it with my hands in front of the individual who deigns it appropriate to put in my childs little cauldron /jack o lantern as this pamphlet is filled with offensive ,bigoted , false information by my standards. That is all. Tolerant does not mean accepting an affront from others. It means I respect his /her civil rights to hand out what they see fit and I exercise my free speech rights to burn it in the street-its all good. Your right to speak via actions or words ends where it affects the rights of others. There is nothing wrong per se with the tactic other than intruding upon parental jurisdiction where a child is concerned and a lack of taste .

 

Oh don't get me wrong. I hate those stupid tracts.

I just refuse to let them bother me or sour our halloween.

Also, I wonder if this has anything to do with where one lives?

I'd have to stop ToT to avoid them here in the protestant belt. We probably get a dozen or more of them in any neighborhood. I figure that's par for the course and don't let it ruin the joy we received at the other couple hundred houses.:auto:

[Saille]

no --MY goal is to have fun, regardless how another chooses to celebrate the holiday :D

 

eta: OH --and i would suggest that if one is so concerned about tracts that they do a Halloween party w/ friends instead. there's no need to cancel a holiday.....

 

Let's try this: Scarecrows, pumpkins and ghosts on the lawn mean we get candy. Big white spotlit crosses mean we get tracts.

 

Then we'll all know what the deal is.

[5kidsforME]

I just don't get the mindset that would give kids scary stuff about ****ation for Halloween. I mean, if you don't believe in it, why can't you just turn your lights off like all the other fuddy-duds out there?? :D

 

Jen

 

Isn't this a little hypocritical? Don't pass out tracts its not acceptable, and if you also don't join the festivities and "butt out" and leave everyone to their fun you are a fuddy duddy. :confused:

[5kidsforME]

http://www.chick.com/seasonal/halloween/ Generally speaking these little gems are handed out to innocent children and their loving parents. Yuck ... I am Catholic so these particlular publications really irk me. If someone chose to put this in my dd's bag they are exercising their right to free speech. I will exercise my right to free speech by destroying it with my hands in front of the individual who deigns it appropriate to put in my childs little cauldron /jack o lantern as this pamphlet is filled with offensive ,bigoted , false information by my standards. That is all. Tolerant does not mean accepting an affront from others. It means I respect his /her civil rights to hand out what they see fit and I exercise my free speech rights to burn it in the street-its all good. Your right to speak via actions or words ends where it affects the rights of others. There is nothing wrong per se with the tactic other than intruding upon parental jurisdiction where a child is concerned and a lack of taste .

 

I don't get this anger towards tracts of any kind! We are conservative christians. We have gotten all sorts of tracts from other religious groups. I don't freak out and rip it up in front of their face. I smile and when we get home I throw it away. Is it so hard?? :confused:

Edited October 21, 2008 by Momto4kids
changed religions to religious groups

[Peek a Boo]

Let's try this: Scarecrows, pumpkins and ghosts on the lawn mean we get candy. Big white spotlit crosses mean we get tracts.

 

Then we'll all know what the deal is.

 

just watch for the Christian pumpkins ;)

[Paula in PA]

Well, I don't think you were intolerant. I don't think "tolerance" includes having to gratefully accept anything and everything someone else wants to share with you or your kids. Maybe I'm making up my own definition, but I consider myself "tolerant" in that I really don't care what people do or what they believe as long as they aren't intent on shoving it down my throat. Once they cross *that* line, they are the ones who are not "tolerant." Maybe there's a better word for it -- who knows?

 

So much for the fun thread, eh?

 

It's not just your definition, it's mine as well.

 

As for the question asked by the OP (since it seems to have been lost in all of this), yes, we do celebrate/honor Samhain. Generally, we did do it the day before (30th) when dd was younger. Now that she's older and a night owl, we will hold our ritual on the 31st after TorT. It will just be the 3 of us. Plus 7 cats and 1 dog, since they always seem to hang around during these things. :001_smile:

[OnTheBrink]

Let's try this: Scarecrows, pumpkins and ghosts on the lawn mean we get candy. Big white spotlit crosses mean we get tracts.

 

Then we'll all know what the deal is.

 

Ok, if I have some pumpkins, mums and a lighted jack-o-lantern in my window but don't plan to be home to hand out anything, is this ok? I have some ghostie candles, but they're inside because they're so darn cute. :D

[Peek a Boo]

I don't think "tolerance" includes having to gratefully accept anything and everything someone else wants to share with you or your kids. Maybe I'm making up my own definition, but I consider myself "tolerant" in that I really don't care what people do or what they believe as long as they aren't intent on shoving it down my throat. Once they cross *that* line, they are the ones who are not "tolerant." Maybe there's a better word for it -- who knows?

 

So much for the fun thread, eh?

 

I'm having fun in this thread :D

I think it's fascinating to see what other people think of words and ideas!

 

i do think the difference here is dependent on what you consider "shoving it down my throat" --I've heard some people take HUGE offense if a Christian so much as mentions they will pray for them...:001_huh: I mean, some Christians just DO that, ya know? Or Christians who look at the homosexual lifestyle and --like you just said-- don't want it "shoved down their throat" either. Or when the Muslim gal in our homeschool group in NY would mention Allah instead of God or Christ --that's PART of THEIR faith. When does it become someone simply expressing their faith via prayers/tracts/standing on the street hollering vs shoving their faith down your throat by forcing you to do/say or see/hear something? How much shoving/expressing is required before it's considered an affront?

 

 

http://www.chick.com/seasonal/halloween/ Generally speaking these little gems are handed out to innocent children and their loving parents. Yuck ... I am Catholic so these particlular publications really irk me. If someone chose to put this in my dd's bag they are exercising their right to free speech. I will exercise my right to free speech by destroying it with my hands in front of the individual who deigns it appropriate to put in my childs little cauldron /jack o lantern as this pamphlet is filled with offensive ,bigoted , false information by my standards. That is all. Tolerant does not mean accepting an affront from others. It means I respect his /her civil rights to hand out what they see fit and I exercise my free speech rights to burn it in the street-its all good. Your right to speak via actions or words ends where it affects the rights of others. There is nothing wrong per se with the tactic other than intruding upon parental jurisdiction where a child is concerned and a lack of taste .

 

 

see, i totally understand and agree with the rights part, but i think you're confusing it w/ the tolerance part.

 

let's look at the part in question:

Tolerant does not mean accepting an affront from others.

 

well, each person has their own idea of what that affront may be.

Tolerance seems to mean that we extend a lot of grace to those who are doing/saying/expressing opinions/beliefs that we find uncomfortable.

 

 

1: capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance , fortitude , stamina

2 a: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b: the act of allowing something : toleration

 

 

I tend to be not so tolerant w/ what I will give a pass in our home -- I'm pretty vocal about it. But I also make it clear to our kids that we are part of a diverse culture --people ARE going to do things that WILL be radically different from what we deem appropriate. We can't control how other people act, but we CAN control how we REact. We have choices --we can react w/in our rights and do whatever we feel like we have a right to do, or we can extend a lot of grace and bite our tongue and heap coals of kindness on their heads. I've been known to do both depending on my tolerance level for the situation ;)

 

But i do notice a big ....disconnect?....when someone claims to be tolerant yet issues judgmental ultimatums.:001_huh:

 

so as i mentioned- i find it a fascinating issue for a diverse discussion board like we have :D

[Peek a Boo]

Ok, if I have some pumpkins, mums and a lighted jack-o-lantern in my window but don't plan to be home to hand out anything, is this ok? I have some ghostie candles, but they're inside because they're so darn cute. :D

 

just leave a sign on the door or closer to the street that says something like "we're not home, but the guys down at house number 123 are giving out chocolate covered roaches!!"

:D

[Karen sn]

I had to look it up. I would be beyond livid if someone surreptitiously took myself or my children to one of these.

 

Ridiculous. I too would be livid.

Reminds me of the idiot we saw downtown at a Bill Clinton rally for Obama.

This "man" was carrying a huge poster of a bloody mutilated fetus. Not at all apropriate. We had small kids there with us (not to mention I was nursing my newborn and that's not an image I want in my head at that time!). I wanted to punch him.

 

If zealots want to show that trash to their own kids - whatever. But don't show mine! Would they appreciate me walking around with a picture of how all the animals do it? Just because I let my dd look at a book showing frogs and others mating does not mean that I would show any one else's kids!

 

To let their own kids in a hell house fine.... but don't take ours.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Or Christians who look at the homosexual lifestyle and --like you just said-- don't want it "shoved down their throat" either.

 

You meant to say bigots, not Christians, right?

[Karen sn]

But you're missing the point:

 

apparently he DID want to participate in halloween, just not how YOU wanted him to participate.

 

 

So who's gonna be the Holiday Police?

 

Does everyone hafta celebrate holidays the same way you do?

 

Give me a break!

And I would have done more than just leave the tract at his door.

I'd have left the shreds all over his yard as I walked away.

 

What would be the "tolerant" thing to do with a piece of smutt that some old man gives your baby and then refuses to take back?

 

She was nice about the whole thing - he wasn't.

[Peek a Boo]

You meant to say bigots, not Christians, right?

 

nope.

I mean those Christians who don't want the schools shoving alternative lifestyles as something 'ok' down students throats.

 

i do understand that not every Christian believes that way.

Others do.

 

bigot:

a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

 

 

so if you are going to cling desperately to your own idea that every person who disapproves of the gay lifestyle is being hateful and intolerant --regardless of what those same christians do to HELP anyone of any faith/lifestyle-- then i guess that makes you a bigot too, just towards those Christians.

 

so do we really want to start examining what a bigot is, or do we want to remain civil and tolerant of other's beliefs? i can do either :D

[nmoira]

If zealots want to show that trash to their own kids - whatever. But don't show mine! Would they appreciate me walking around with a picture of how all the animals do it? Just because I let my dd look at a book showing frogs and others mating does not mean that I would show any one else's kids!

 

To let their own kids in a hell house fine.... but don't take ours.

I've always wondered about what the reaction would be to, say, freethinker tracts being doled out to children for Halloween.

[Peek a Boo]

Give me a break!

And I would have done more than just leave the tract at his door.

I'd have left the shreds all over his yard as I walked away.

 

What would be the "tolerant" thing to do with a piece of smutt that some old man gives your baby and then refuses to take back?

 

She was nice about the whole thing - he wasn't.

 

and how YOU react is certainly your call.

 

are YOU concerned w/ being "tolerant" or expecting others to be tolerant of YOUR beliefs? If so, then we can look at what you think 'tolerant' looks like.

[Peek a Boo]

I've always wondered about what the reaction would be to, say, freethinker tracts being doled out to children for Halloween.

 

 

we'd read them :D

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

so if you are going to cling desperately to your own idea that every person who disapproves of the gay lifestyle is being hateful and intolerant --regardless of what those same christians do to HELP anyone of any faith/lifestyle-- then i guess that makes you a bigot too, just towards those Christians.

 

HELP? Help do what? Do they buy them a housewarming gift?

 

Bigotry is bigotry, no matter how big of a cross one wants to hang around it to pretty it up.

 

You can put lipstick on a pig.........

[Karen sn]

because they happen to believe that spending eternity like what's depicted in the tract is way scarier than Halloween. Besides --as was mentioned in another thread-- plenty of christians DO celebrate Halloween and see this as simply another thing to hand out.

 

again, *I* don't do this --not my style ;)

BUT i do see why others feel the need to.

We just toss the tracts in the trash.

 

eta: OH! and i missed it, lol!

I just dont' get the mindset that would give kids scary stuff for Halloween

really?? Halloween?!? a holiday that revolves around, well, Scary Stuff?? :D

 

I happen to believe that sex education prevents abortion.

Would you mind if I educated yours?

Would anyone mind if I put pictures of animals doing it in their halloween bags because I believe that we need education?

[Karen sn]

I've always wondered about what the reaction would be to, say, freethinker tracts being doled out to children for Halloween.

 

Have you ever read the pagan tract put out in response to all the zealot proselitizing? It's awesome!

[Karen sn]

we'd read them :D

 

Would you be mad if it showed gay men kissing?

[Peek a Boo]

HELP? Help do what? Do they buy them a housewarming gift?

 

wow-- are you really that ignorant of what people who don't approve of the gay lifestyle do to help people? of ANY/no faith/ lifestyle?

 

Even the BSA helps organizations that don't discriminate against gays or faiths. Do you really think that 'housewarming gifts' are teh extent religious folk go to to help others?

 

Bigotry is bigotry, no matter how big of a cross one wants to hang around it to pretty it up.

 

You can put lipstick on a pig.........

 

boy howdy, you got that one right.

 

and no matter how big a justification you want to put on hating others for their beliefs. it all comes out in the wash.

[nmoira]

 

Have you ever read the pagan tract put out in response to all the zealot proselitizing? It's awesome!

No... off to google. :D

[Peek a Boo]

I happen to believe that sex education prevents abortion.

Would you mind if I educated yours?

Would anyone mind if I put pictures of animals doing it in their halloween bags because I believe that we need education?

 

 

go ahead: i welcome the opportunity to show my kids how wrong some people are ;)

 

i happen to know for a fact that if one doesn't have sex, then an abortion isn't needed.

 

and we see that even with sex education, there are still abortions.

[Karen sn]

and how YOU react is certainly your call.

 

are YOU concerned w/ being "tolerant" or expecting others to be tolerant of YOUR beliefs? If so, then we can look at what you think 'tolerant' looks like.

 

So - what IS your point?

If someone tells me they don't want something I am offering - I take it back!

I am RESPECTING their beliefs AND THEIR WISHES.

[Peek a Boo]

Would you be mad if it showed gay men kissing?

 

 

mad? uh, no.