Small kids and saying no

[Bluegoat]

I read two seperate FB posts/requests for advice today, from seperate people, about similar topics.

 

In one, a toddler asked to nurse after being weaned for over a year.  There was no milk, and the mom found it uncomfortable and didn't like doing it.  But she didn't want to refuse because he would complain and cry.

 

The other mum wanted to wean a younger toddler but was having trouble, because the baby kept wanting to nurse.  She didn't know how to get her to stop wanting to so she could wean her.

 

I feel really odd about these requests.  Not because mums would feel badly about refusing nursing or would like to avoid tantrums.  That seems pretty natural.  But I guess I am surprised or dismayed that they don't feel like they are supported or empowered or that it is ok to just say no if that is what they want, that it isn't part of the basic being a mom toolbox.

 

Do people feel like, as young moms, the parenting culture or their experience allowed them to take a hard stand on something.  What would you say to young mothers who don't feel that way.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Tantrums aren't the end of the world. I'm all for parenting in a way that doesn't unnecessarily provoke a kid, because that just makes everything harder, but when you've decided to wean it works a lot better to stick to your guns, especially if it is physically painful. Yes, I believe it is more damaging to tell women they must continue as long as the kid wants to do so irrespective of their own feelings and physical response to the situation.

 

We subordinate ourselves necessarily in the care of children, but boundaries are good and healthy too. I'd be privately encouraging these women to find this balance NOW - because it looks different for each family and the sooner they figure out what they are comfortable with for their kids and themselves the better their defenses against the mommy guilt and comparison game will be.

[Guest]

I know what you mean.

 

Just say no, and don't. It's baffling to me that there is a question involved in there.

 

I think a certain type of person dominates the mom advice scene right now, and I'm just not that type.

 

And then sometimes people want to be heard. That, I get. But I still don't really understand the question.

[Guest]

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Edited November 26, 2016 by OKBud

[JustEm]

For me as a new mom I had a lot of confidence in doing what seemed right for me and my child. Saying no and dealing with the tantrum over not wanting to nurse a toddler was one of those things I knew was right for me. I get overstimulated, especially with too much touching, so I put up with a year of breastfeeding because that was cheapest and best for baby. But come toddler times not allowing nursing allowed me to decompress enough so I wasn't touched out when my kids really needed me.

 

I've witnessed that a lot of new mom's are not confident in their decision making abilities so they need to lean on a book or advice from others. It so happens that currently the trend seems to be to nurse as long as you can, on demand, and tandem nursing is pushed big time. That is great for some people but if it is not for you then sometimes you need to hear it is ok not to from someone else. It is a personality thing I think.

[maize]

I tend to be very empathetic when it comes to my children. This definitely leads me to say no less often than most parents I know; I always see things from the child's point of view.

Edited November 26, 2016 by maize

[justasque]

I read two seperate FB posts/requests for advice today, from seperate people, about similar topics.

 

In one, a toddler asked to nurse after being weaned for over a year.  There was no milk, and the mom found it uncomfortable and didn't like doing it.  But she didn't want to refuse because he would complain and cry.

 

The other mum wanted to wean a younger toddler but was having trouble, because the baby kept wanting to nurse.  She didn't know how to get her to stop wanting to so she could wean her.

 

I feel really odd about these requests.  Not because mums would feel badly about refusing nursing or would like to avoid tantrums.  That seems pretty natural.  But I guess I am surprised or dismayed that they don't feel like they are supported or empowered or that it is ok to just say no if that is what they want, that it isn't part of the basic being a mom toolbox.

 

Do people feel like, as young moms, the parenting culture or their experience allowed them to take a hard stand on something.  What would you say to young mothers who don't feel that way.

 

I would advise the first mom to figure out why the toddler was suddenly interested in nursing, and come up with a solution based on the underlying feelings/needs/wants that worked for both mom and child.  It's very likely not about wanting to nurse per se, but about something else - wanting mom's attention now that there is a new baby, etc.  By figuring out the underlying feelings/needs/wants, mom can find a solution that works with her own feelings/needs/wants, rather than just giving in to the initial request and feeling resentful, or saying "no" and feeling guilty for it. 

 

I would advise the second mom to read Mothering Your Nursing Toddler, which is full of suggestions about how to wean an older child in a way that is gentle and respectful of both the child's feelings/needs/wants, and is also gentle and respectful of the mother's feelings/needs/wants.  Generally, the trick is to find other ways to meet the needs/wants that have previously been met by nursing.

 

It is of course ok to say no to all kinds of things in all kinds of circumstances - even desirable in many of them!  No one wants to raise a demanding brat, or to be a slave to a spoiled child.  Taking a hard stand on some things can be very beneficial to both mom and child.  But it can often - usually, even - be done in a way that acknowledges the child's feelings/wants/needs, educates the child as to why the answer must be "no", enlists the child's help in crafting a win-win solution, and models for the child how to respectfully interact with others when they want something from you.  

 

I know some folks think all of this thinking/feeling stuff is totally unnecessary, but in my experience it makes for thoughtful kids who become well-prepared for making decisions and dealing with people as they move towards independence.  If, in the long run, a kid knows that when mom is taking a hard stand it's for good reasons, they are more likely to respect it, which is something worth working towards.

[OneStepAtATime]

I would advise the first mom to figure out why the toddler was suddenly interested in nursing, and come up with a solution based on the underlying feelings/needs/wants that worked for both mom and child.  It's very likely not about wanting to nurse per se, but about something else - wanting mom's attention now that there is a new baby, etc.  By figuring out the underlying feelings/needs/wants, mom can find a solution that works with her own feelings/needs/wants, rather than just giving in to the initial request and feeling resentful, or saying "no" and feeling guilty for it. 

 

I would advise the second mom to read Mothering Your Nursing Toddler, which is full of suggestions about how to wean an older child in a way that is gentle and respectful of both the child's feelings/needs/wants, and is also gentle and respectful of the mother's feelings/needs/wants.  Generally, the trick is to find other ways to meet the needs/wants that have previously been met by nursing.

 

It is of course ok to say no to all kinds of things in all kinds of circumstances - even desirable in many of them!  No one wants to raise a demanding brat, or to be a slave to a spoiled child.  Taking a hard stand on some things can be very beneficial to both mom and child.  But it can often - usually, even - be done in a way that acknowledges the child's feelings/wants/needs, educates the child as to why the answer must be "no", enlists the child's help in crafting a win-win solution, and models for the child how to respectfully interact with others when they want something from you.  

 

I know some folks think all of this thinking/feeling stuff is totally unnecessary, but in my experience it makes for thoughtful kids who become well-prepared for making decisions and dealing with people as they move towards independence.  If, in the long run, a kid knows that when mom is taking a hard stand it's for good reasons, they are more likely to respect it, which is something worth working towards.

I agree.  When I have taken my kids' feelings into account, even when I was firmly in the "no" department on something, we could usually find a way to communicate so they still felt loved and respected.  

 

And I also agree, with the first situation something may have changed.  If the child hasn't nursed in a year and suddenly wants to again, I would not start nursing again (especially if it is painful) unless I wanted to, but I would absolutely be trying to determine what triggered the change and try to help the child with whatever they are dealing with.

 

With the second, I would be trying to find resources to help me and my child to wean while still showing the child that they are loved and supported and it is not a rejection of them.

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, I have found that if a mom feels like or is taught that they cannot establish boundaries a mom can end up feeling like they have no control of their body or their life situation, which can lead to low self-esteem, maybe resenting their kids, even depression, but having no idea how to change things.

[hornblower]

The world says no enough. I tries to say yes a lot. 



Fwiw, my experience is that there are a lot of  extremely selfish and self-centered parents who don't find it hard to say no to anything that inconveniences them or is difficult for them, no matter how beneficial it would be for the child.  It's not hard to find parents who are really thinking of everything from their own perspective and not considering the child at all. I don't know that we need to support parents to be more attuned to saying no if that's what they want because I think it happens plenty enough....

I also echo justasque's comments & suggestions. 

[gardenmom5]

I've seen commercials where the mom can't say ''no', and makes up all sorts of excuses - instead of "just saying no".   they send a wishy-washy message to kids they can stick their foot in a door and get what they want or endlessly wheedle.  it's a disservice.

 

i'd tell them to be an adult, and learn to give a firm "no".  kids need to learn boundaries, and it's easier when they're young.

 

the child is looking for comfort - not necessarily nursing.  mom's need to learn to give their child what they need.  toddlers are notorious for not knowing what they NEED.  e.g. screaming overtired toddler who refuses to take a nap because they might miss something.  but what they NEED is a nap.

 

I weaned three of my kids at 18 months (one weaned herself at 15 months).   two didn't care.  one . . . . hit me for six months because I refused to nurse.  I'd pick him up and cuddle and snuggle, and try to comfort him.  I finally started offering him a bottle, which he'd previously never accepted.  by the end of the six months - he was hitting  me  to communicate he wanted a bottle.  (he demanded a bottle until he was five.  and only stopped because for four months before his birthday - I told him, when you're five, you don't need a bottle anymore.  he was okay because he'd been warned.)

 

 

eta: i got the do-over with weaning one who didn't want to be weaned . . . . . I have no regrets.

Edited November 26, 2016 by gardenmom5

[SKL]

I didn't nurse (adopted kids), so I can't give my personal experience on that.

 

When my kids were little, I tried to find a way to say something other than "no," just to keep from being constantly negative.  Instead of "no you can't have this now," it would be "you can have this later" or "you can have this other thing instead."  In the case of weaning, based on my parenting style and what I saw growing up, I would probably say something like "you are a big girl now, you drink milk out of a cup, but we can still snuggle."  Maybe I'd buy a special drinking cup for the kid if she needed motivation to switch.

 

To the "selfish" comments, I think back to the days when most moms had multiple kids close in age, and the moments that were their own were few and far between.  Weaning was to free mom up for some other important thing.  I know people like to say it's natural to breastfeed for several years, but I think that for moms of multiple small kids, it is natural to wean sooner than that.  Of course there will be exceptions, but it's strange to suggest weaning a tot is unnatural or selfish.

 

And I think that once a mom decides that she really wants to do xyz, xyz isn't usually hard to do.

 

I observe a lot of kids having angst over things that their moms aren't sure about.  I think moms need to be decisive, as kids sense indecisiveness and it makes them insecure.  A lot of these decisions really don't matter one way or the other, so just make a decision and act on it.

[Mimm]

I've been hanging around a mom recently who seems incapable of setting boundaries for her 2 year old. She acts helpless in pretty common situations and asks me (we aren't friends) what she should do about uncomplicated problems. It's a bit baffling to me. She doesn't seem to feel comfortable as a mom (she also has a five year old so this isn't her only child). She finally set a boundary and ignored her child's crying (five minutes, tops, and it was laying on the floor whining, not what I would call a tantrum by any means). And after that the situation improved dramatically and her child is enjoying herself much more. I'm hoping some success with sticking to her guns encourages her. But it truly feels like she's never been told that she can insist on her way.

[HomeAgain]

A lot of parents I know feel torn when having to say no, so they don't as often as they should.  Some of it is feeling guilty after working 40-50 hours a week, some of it is just wanting the crying to stop *now* so they can take a mental breath.  They're overwhelmed.

 

The 3yo I babysit doesn't get told no as often as he needs to.  He eats what he likes for dinner, stays up all hours/waking up in the middle of the night playing on his tablet...and it affects his behavior during the day greatly.  I have no problem being the bad guy - no, he must leave the tablet in the car.  No, he cannot have anything different.  Lunch is lunch.  Eat it or not, it's not my business.  No, he cannot take what he wants because he wants it.  I don't care.  Not a valid reason. 

But I'm not mom.  I'm not trying to balance his needs, his brother's needs, the baby's needs...after working 12 hours and being exhausted.  I don't feel torn from all of society's expectations of what a good parent does/doesn't do and the label it requires (am I a Helicopter? Jellyfish? Tiger?).  I can be the bad guy and not worry about how our relationship will be affected from it.

[Bluegoat]

Thanks for all the perspectives.

 

I think the idea of figuring out what is behind the request is probably sensible.  My sense is maybe he likes the dedicated cuddle time, and because asking to nurse is a pretty sure-fire way to get it, it becomes a good tool for him.  THat's pretty much what people suggested to the mom

 

It was the lack of people telling her it was really ok to say she didn't want to, that she could be firm about that if it was what she preferred, and that it was ok if he didn't like that, that I found a little worrying.

 

I tend to take it as given that a parent isn't going to make a decision without having thought it through, or without trying to present it to the child in an appropriate way.  Of course some don't, those aren't the moms in my circle though.  I tend to think once a decision has been made, it's usually best to be really consistent. 

 

I do feel I think that there is a lot of pressure around breastfeeding in the demographic I am in.  I'm not sure that I think weaning toddlers is unusual worldwide - there is a fair bit of variation and toddlerhood, when a sibling comes along, seems pretty common to me.  I think extended breastfeeding is lovely, and I nursed my kids until pre-school age, and tandem nursed for a year.  The latter was a mistake and one that I might have avoided or recognized earlier if I'd had a more realistic perspective and less sense that good moms nursed as long as possible and that wasn't likely to be a problem.

 

The other thing that strikes me about the nature argument - I see quite a few nursing moms ask about nursing through nursing aversion.  While I think if that happens early on that is reasonable, I also think it's very much "natural" for nursing aversion to lead to weaning, and maybe a sign of something going on in the body.  Whenever I see a cow or cat run off her youngster when it tries to nurse, I think - that mom has nursing aversion.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, I have found that if a mom feels like or is taught that they cannot establish boundaries a mom can end up feeling like they have no control of their body or their life situation, which can lead to low self-esteem, maybe resenting their kids, even depression, but having no idea how to change things.

 

 

I feel I need to add to this.  I do think parents can get lost in only providing what the child needs and failing to deal with their own needs.  I did this when DD was a baby.  I nearly killed myself trying to do everything that I thought DD and DH needed and I quite literally nearly destroyed my own mental and physical health.  DD struggled terribly to sleep at all as a baby.  It was an exhausting year.  I didn't take care of me.  At all.  I focused entirely on her and on DH.  Which of course meant I was then struggling even more to be there for DD and DH as my mental and physical health deteriorated.  I did not think I was even allowed to set boundaries.  I was the mother and wife.  Those were my critical roles.  I had to put in 110%, just like I had in my career.  It nearly killed me and it caused my first year with DD to be a much harder one than it had to be.  I do think there are a lot of moms who need to know it is o.k. to set boundaries and to take care of themselves, too (not in place of).  

 

On the flip side, yes, there are moms out there that put themselves first 90%-100% of the time.  I have friends and family members who seem to think kids are an afterthought, just there for when they want them around and the rest of the time it is the Mom's (and Dad's) needs that are paramount.  Kid is a second class citizen with no rights.  There are several members of DH's family that are definitely in this category.

 

In the two scenarios OP mentioned, I was coming at it from the perspective of perhaps these women are not taking care of themselves at all and in the first scenario may not be looking at the forest because they are solidly looking at the one tree (suddenly needing to nurse again and feeling obligated to do so even though it is painful and they really are unhappy doing so).  With that scenario in particular maybe what they need is to delve a little deeper into what may have triggered the change and addressing that.

[Guest]

Fortunately, I can honestly say that I only know one, maybe two, mothers who clearly don't automatically take their children into account to the best of their ability in all choices, big and small. [and those people are drug addicts] That's what I mean...it's just so obvious. But I guess if you live surrounded by horrifically bad mothers (bummer), it wouldn't seem so obvious. That's something I hadn't considered.

 

I think the nursing thing is just one example of this ~~something~~ going on out in the world that induces moms to question, and ultimately regret, every teeny tiny little decision.

 

I do think, as someone upthread alluded to, that people are overwhelmed, and I would add very very lonely. The desperate isolation [my own description, from experience]  has far-reaching and varied consequences.

 

I think, also, that a lot of people seem to not have the sense that their babies are human beings. Separate, whole human beings. Understanding that allows you to mentally frame parenting as a billion interactions between two (and more) individual units. It's not a job--to be done exactly perfectly correctly, because it's the most important job in the world-- it is a relationship between two people of equal importance. One person has waywaywaywaywaywayway more responsibilities for quite a long time, but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of what it is, or make it something other than a relationship.

 

[bolt.]

On the one hand:

 

I have, in general, seen many first-time parents walk through the wishy-washy phase where being firm isn't familiar yet. Most of them get through it well enough: some during the toddler years, and others not really until the kindergarten years... And that's ok.

 

Sometimes a nudge towards the possibility that parenting can be more peaceful if the limits firm up a little is helpful, but I don't think it's critical most of the time.

 

On the other hand:

 

Nursing is it's own thing. It's role is unique, and it doesn't have a direct correlation with the generalities I was mentioning above. Therefore I would exclude the idea that 'some moms can't conceive of being firm around nursing issues' from the general category of 'some parents aren't comfortable being firm with very young children'. They seem like related ideas, but they aren't.

 

Saying it's time to leave the zoo and saying no to lollipops are the same category. Deciding when a nursing relationship is over -- whether the child still seems to need-want-need that aspect of relationship or not -- is just an entirely different aspect of parenting.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think I definitely did not say no often enough, but I would not hesitate for even a second to say no in the first scenario.  The second would be more difficult because that's part of the process, but it is something that I know would need to be done at least eventually.  Reminds me of a friend who was still laying in bed with her 6 year old for hours trying to help him go to sleep.  He'd wake up 100 times in the night and she was there because I dunno she felt as if this was necessary.  That he never be alone to figure out going to sleep.  She was haggard and exhausted all.the.time over this.  I really didn't get that.