I know you're not supposed to put a kid on a diet, but...

[SparklyUnicorn]

The traditional way to eat back home was five meals per day.

1. Breakfast at home before school, around 6:30am.

2. Second breakfast at school. Kids brought sandwiches, apples, yoghurt.  There is a longer break between periods around 9am so kids have time to eat this.

3. Lunch between noon and 1pm. Warm cooked meal.

4. Afternoon meal between 3 and 4. Usually something baked. Yes, even if you're in hospital they will serve the afternoon meal.

5. Dinner around 7pm. Sandwiches/salad/veggies

 

Not quite how my husband's family did it.  They ate in a similar way I did.  Breakfast (small), lunch (medium sized), dinner (largest meal).  During vacations they ate more like you describe because that was how my in-laws were used to doing it when they grew up.  I think this changed more and more over time and starts to look more similar to how we do it here.

[regentrude]

Not quite how my husband's family did it.  They ate in a similar way I did.  Breakfast (small), lunch (medium sized), dinner (largest meal).  During vacations they ate more like you describe because that was how my in-laws were used to doing it when they grew up.  I think this changed more and more over time and starts to look more similar to how we do it here.

 

The second breakfast in schools is still the norm. (My kids attended ps in Germany a few years ago, and my friends' kids report the same).

And school lunch is a full cooked meal. Some families cook in the evenings now, but at least for my friends and their families, that is not the norm and only done for special occasions.

[Bluegoat]

I think second berkfast makes a lot of sense. A lot of people seem to have a hard time eating much right when they wake up.  I end up seding my dd11 to school with a good snack because she really does not feel like eating much - I'm lucky if she'll eat a whole piece of toast with peanut butter.  But that isn't enough for the morning.  If she could eat once she had her walk to school I'll bet she would be much more hungry.

 

I was the same way.  I only force myself to eat something because I have fainted going without a few times.

[Scarlett]

Scarlett,

 

The answer for DSS is eggs.  3 eggs, beaten with a bit of milk.  Teach him to do this himself.  Get a cheap ceramic nonstick pan from a place like Walmart.  Take frozen pre-chopped veggies (I like kale or chopped spinach and some pepper/onion mix), dump in a bowl, and microwave for 2 minutes. Spray canola oil, set heat to medium, dump in egg mix, cover with lid, and in 2-2.5 minutes, he'll have the perfect omelette.  Mix veggies, dump onto omelette, with a little cheese if he can manage to not binge on it, top with salsa or sriracha.

 

You can also teach him to make a spanish omelette using slices of potato that have been baked and cooled in the fridge earlier in the week instead of fried.  1 large baked potato and three eggs cooked into an omelette have about 500 calories.  Except part of that starch has turned to resistant starch and isn't digestible.  It's also incredibly filling and nutritious.  Topped with a tablespoon of shredded cheese and some sugar free salsa (Aldi) and you have a cheap, healthy, and very filling breakfast.  He might find that after a breakfast like this he is much less likely to eat junk during the day.  I know I am.

 

 

This morning I made this.  Sliced up a baked potato (leftover) and chopped some onion...stir fried that with a tiny bit of olive oil...then added about 2 cups spinach.  (loose not packed) and steamed it down...then I added 4 eggs with a bit of milk and poured on top.  I topped with maybe 2 TBLE of cheese.  I took maybe a 1/4 of it and the rest is waiting for him....he is in the shower.  I think he will like it.  If he doesn't take so long it gets cold!

[Katy]

I think this really depends on the kid and the individual situation.  To me it's not supposed to be this difficult.  But for some people, for one reason or another it is.  Like you saying if they are hungry enough they'll eat XYZ.  No some kids won't.  No matter what you do.  Saying well just get tough about it, hold out until they just comply....that can be quite frustrating if the kid is just not going to do that. 

I agree on the snacking, but that has gotten a little weird because it's pushed everywhere.  Locally kids are given snacks at school and breaks for snacks.  We didn't have that growing up. 

 

I was looking at various diet plans yesterday and what struck me was the 5-6 times a day they claim you should eat.  I'd rather eat 2-3 very satisfy meals than pick all day.  Seems like there isn't time to digest! 

 

But, again, everyone is different which is why it's so hard to give one size fits all advice. 

 

Yeah, but usually for every kid that refuses all healthy foods there is some fairly healthy, not processed carbs equivalent that would work.  Baked fries or something that is appetizing only when you're hungry but not actually binge worthy.  If kids genuinely won't eat anything that isn't made from flour I'd ban flour products from the house until they developed a taste for something else.  If they genuinely have some sort of sensory issue, I'd probably consider that as a medical thing and get them into some sort of medical therapy based eating program.

 

In most cases, for most kids, if there isn't a medical problem, and a kid tries a food 3-10 times, they will like it even if they hate it at first.  Especially if you combine it with sugar, salt, and fat.

 

Chances of liking a healthy food are 200% higher if you're hungry and the other options at the table aren't all variations of sugar, salt, and fat combinations.

 

There's also the trick of having their favorite dessert on the table every night, but they are not allowed to eat it if they don't eat three bites of their veggies too.  I have yet to see that fail on a kid that wasn't coming down with something.  Once you've had three bites of broccoli with salted butter on ten separate occasions, you're probably going to like it.

[regentrude]

In most cases, for most kids, if there isn't a medical problem, and a kid tries a food 3-10 times, they will like it even if they hate it at first.  Especially if you combine it with sugar, salt, and fat.

 

Chances of liking a healthy food are 200% higher if you're hungry and the other options at the table aren't all variations of sugar, salt, and fat combinations.

 

There's also the trick of having their favorite dessert on the table every night, but they are not allowed to eat it if they don't eat three bites of their veggies too.  I have yet to see that fail on a kid that wasn't coming down with something.  Once you've had three bites of broccoli with salted butter on ten separate occasions, you're probably going to like it.

 

This is very simplistic advice that does not work for many parents of picky eaters.

You have not met a child who is a supertaster and genuinely finds vegetables gag worthy.

I have seen my DS force down a baby tomato and a slice of cucumber out of politeness, he barely managed to get it down. Trust me, I tried all the "tips". And no, "hiding" veggies in sauce also only works for kids who are either easily manipulated, or don't have a pronounced sense of taste.

 

You also have not met a strong willed child. My 5 y/o chose not to eat for three days because he did not like the taste of the tooth paste and thought that if he did not eat, he would not need to brush teeth (took me a while to figure out what was the issue). Some children absolutely cannot be bribed. I have one of them.

Edited November 2, 2016 by regentrude

[hornblower]

to this day I cannot eat a brussels sprout.  I really can barely be in a room with a cooked brussels sprout. 

To this day, I can smell from several meters away whether I can eat a food & some smells trigger a very strong gag reflex. I can avoid throwing up now, but as a child, I would throw up on my plate.

 

BTDT as a child with the sauces, the flavourings, the why don't you just try it, the "I didn't like it at first but after a few tries I now like it" homilies, the bribes, the threats, the no dessert  blah blah blah. 

Listen, once you put that thing in my mouth - btdt too, with people actually putting food in my mouth as a child - I never wanted to eat anything for many hours after, just like you don't want to eat after you've been retching in the bathroom for hours, so the idea that getting to eat dessert after swallowing this would motivate me is nonsense. 

Also, grew up with war parents so I had my ears full of "if you only knew real hunger you'd eat that".   Not sure where they're going with that line of thinking because it's vile no matter what... 

This idea that picky eaters just need to be forced really, really needs to die. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by hornblower

[kiana]

My grandparents tried to force my mother to eat stewed kale. As in, they literally held her nose and forced it into her mouth after she stared at the same bowl of kale for 3 days without eating a single bite. She vomited all over them and that was the end of that.

 

For her it's more a texture thing and stewed greens are stringy. But she never tried to physically force us to eat anything. She did have a rule that you had to try everything before you could go for seconds of anything, but she also made an effort not to serve food that she knew we actively disliked after trying it a few times. 

[Nan in Mass]

I third the idea that picky eaters do not just need to eat more of something to like it. I repeatedly tried to eat the things I hated in order to please my parents. I believed them when they said I would get used to things or outgrow my dislikes. I was fairly willing to do this and there was no emotional trauma involved. It did not work, even with a willing child. My sense of taste is different. As an adult, I have discovered that some of the things I was reluctant to eat as a child were food intolerances.

 

I also want to add my voice to those who say they are fine eating no meat or eggs for breakfast. A bowl of oatmeal with raisins, milk, and honey or brown sugar lasts me until my lunch of pbj or cheese sandwich just fine. And my sandwich lasts me fine until the end of the afternoon, when I have a cheese stick or yoghurt or a glass of milk. Supper is something on top of a starch - veggie glop on rice, mac and cheese with a salad, tuna noodle casserole, or something like that. And I have coco before bed. I eat sweets at least once a week at family parties. Occasionally I make apple crisp or gingerbread or oatmeal cookies for my boys. If I am hungry, I make toast or eat graham crackers or a cheese stick or something. I am a healthy weight and don,t have to do more than make sure I keep moving every day and be a bit careful about what I eat to stay that way. My point is that one-size-fits-all advice does not fit all. My diet is most definitely carb based. The times I have tried to cut down on carbs to lose a bit of Christmas weight or something have been disasters and led to several miserable months of cravings and trying to eat "right" and failing. The time I accidentally stopped drinking milk, I wound up with deficient in magnesium with a bunch of those unpleasant symptoms. My cousin, on the other hand, feels bloated and logy when she eats bread or a carb heavy dinner. She's never liked bread. We are all different. I have no trouble believing that an obese body functions differently than a slimmer one. I think we all have to be careful about broad statements of what works and what doesn,t.

 

OP, is the TKD Tai Kwan Do? And if so, is it you or your children who are involved with that sport? Isn't that a sport that has weight classes? Could that be linked to your problem?

 

Nan

Edited November 2, 2016 by Nan in Mass

[SKL]

I have picky eaters.  I am a picky eater.  None of us was "raised to be picky," we just are.

 

At this point I feel like I've done good if my kid agrees to *smell* the suspicious food she doesn't want to taste.  (Sometimes she will go on to eat the food - sometimes not.)

 

Really, we all just need to find what works for our families.  Suggestions are good.  Some will work, some won't.  Grandma's way was Grandma's way because it worked on Grandma's kids.  Not because it was pronounced by God.

[poppy]

I am completely unconvinced that obsessing MORE about protein will make Americans less fat.

[Zinnia]

This is a fascinating thread.  

 

I recently had a thread about lots of cavities in children and someone mentioned undiagnosed GERD.  It's gotten me thinking about it.  About how genetics and personality and body type are all intertwined.  My dh's family all struggle with GERD to a dramatic level.  It really affects their quality of life, and his mom, dad, and all 3 sisters struggle.  A couple of them fall into the, "my stomach hurts; I won't eat" camp.  My 10 year old is like this.  He says that if his stomach hurts, he just can.not.make.himself eat.  I believe him, and when his GERD isn't bad, he eats a good bit.  But if his stomach hurts, no go.  My MIL and one SIL are like this.

 

I have another child that falls into, "my stomach hurts, let me find the right food to soothe it" camp.  He's struggling with his weight right now, at 8 years old.  He's gained 50 pounds over the last 2 years.  My dh and FIL also fall into this camp.  

 

For our family, getting the GERD under control is going to be a big part of getting the weight under control.  But different personalities and different genetics are always going to have us with one heavier son and one twig of a son, which I do think often makes things really tense at home.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The second breakfast in schools is still the norm. (My kids attended ps in Germany a few years ago, and my friends' kids report the same).

And school lunch is a full cooked meal. Some families cook in the evenings now, but at least for my friends and their families, that is not the norm and only done for special occasions.

 

Huh.  I'll have to ask my BIL if they do it that way in his neck of the woods.  Sounds rather posh.  LOL

 

Here in the district they do have breakfast and lunch (we never had breakfast when I was in school).  But breakfast is before school so you have to get there early.  Growing up we got 15 minutes for lunch.  That wasn't enough time.  Many times I just didn't eat. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am completely unconvinced that obsessing MORE about protein will make Americans less fat.

 

Yeah I doubt it is that simple.  I don't think anyone is suggesting it is.  A breakfast of sugary fruits and cereals and breads was a terrible combination for me as a kid though and that was what we were told to eat.  In fact eggs, we were told, were baaaaad.  Too much cholesterol.  My grandmother was always one to follow prevailing advice for the most part, but she drew the line at eggs and always ate them scoffing at the cholesterol blah blah.  She is in her late 80s (was told she has high cholesterol), but is in pretty good health for an almost 90 year old. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have picky eaters.  I am a picky eater.  None of us was "raised to be picky," we just are.

 

At this point I feel like I've done good if my kid agrees to *smell* the suspicious food she doesn't want to taste.  (Sometimes she will go on to eat the food - sometimes not.)

 

Really, we all just need to find what works for our families.  Suggestions are good.  Some will work, some won't.  Grandma's way was Grandma's way because it worked on Grandma's kids.  Not because it was pronounced by God.

 

Oh yeah I know we have all had this discussion here on the boards too many times before, but this whole "I don't tolerate pickiness" business is just...yeah right.  Then you don't have a picky kid or you don't know what it means to be picky.  Maybe it would be better if there was another word for it. 

 

Like my grandfather grew up during times where getting enough food was an issue and where it was ok to smack your kid upside the head if he didn't listen.  He died a picky man.  That didn't change it. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah, but usually for every kid that refuses all healthy foods there is some fairly healthy, not processed carbs equivalent that would work.  Baked fries or something that is appetizing only when you're hungry but not actually binge worthy.  If kids genuinely won't eat anything that isn't made from flour I'd ban flour products from the house until they developed a taste for something else.  If they genuinely have some sort of sensory issue, I'd probably consider that as a medical thing and get them into some sort of medical therapy based eating program.

 

In most cases, for most kids, if there isn't a medical problem, and a kid tries a food 3-10 times, they will like it even if they hate it at first.  Especially if you combine it with sugar, salt, and fat.

 

Chances of liking a healthy food are 200% higher if you're hungry and the other options at the table aren't all variations of sugar, salt, and fat combinations.

 

There's also the trick of having their favorite dessert on the table every night, but they are not allowed to eat it if they don't eat three bites of their veggies too.  I have yet to see that fail on a kid that wasn't coming down with something.  Once you've had three bites of broccoli with salted butter on ten separate occasions, you're probably going to like it.

 

Again, you really have no idea.  I don't see what is so super spectacular about baked fries verses some noodles or a bowl of rice.  I'm not talking I feed him candy, but no he won't eat carrot sticks and broccoli or any of that. 

 

I don't know if this is a "most cases" thing. 

 

And hungry.  We don't starve.  it's unusual for anyone in this country to truly starve.  So that's not a useful tactic.  I'm not going to starve my kid. 

 

I tried all the tricks.  And my kid doesn't like desserts.  He was not motivated by desserts. 

 

Please stop telling me you know all about picky kids because really I don't think you do. 

[Guest]

I am completely unconvinced that obsessing MORE about protein will make Americans less fat.

Protein isn't why people are fat - I have never, in over a decade of studying nutrition and weight management, seen a study suggesting that even excess protein is a causative factor in obesity. Can you cite something I haven't seen that actually proves that and doesn't have massive confounders? I'd be genuinely interested to see it.

 

And despite the name, Protein Power and other similarly formulated diets are high fat and low carb - the protein is moderate at best and characterizing them as high protein is incorrect. When you're dealing with profound obesity it has been a standard clinical first line treatment for a reason and is a good starting point for proving or eliminating insulin signaling as an issue at play. This is biochemistry, not woo or anecdote, though the latter does often support the same approach as we would expect it would with the metabolic dysfunction and disregulation that causes massive accumulation of fat tissue and drives hunger. The very best technical-but-well-explained reading on the topic:

https://www.amazon.com/World-Turned-Upside-Down/dp/0979201829

 

Now, 10-20% of the population, regardless of weight, is not going to respond best to this diet. Individual variation does matter. But among your obese populations, especially those who gained excess fat mass earlier in life than later, the percentage of those who are dealing with energy storage and processing issues is much higher than among, say, normal body weight middle aged women. Why would this surprise anyone?

Edited November 2, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Scarlett]

Again, you really have no idea.  I don't see what is so super spectacular about baked fries verses some noodles or a bowl of rice.  I'm not talking I feed him candy, but no he won't eat carrot sticks and broccoli or any of that. 

 

I don't know if this is a "most cases" thing. 

 

And hungry.  We don't starve.  it's unusual for anyone in this country to truly starve.  So that's not a useful tactic.  I'm not going to starve my kid. 

 

I tried all the tricks.  And my kid doesn't like desserts.  He was not motivated by desserts. 

 

Please stop telling me you know all about picky kids because really I don't think you do. 

 

 

I know I totally don't get the picky eater thing.  I guess the best you can do is not let them have junk food in place of real food....even if the 'real' food is not the best.

 

My best friend's ds was/is super picky.  But she would keep Funions in the house and he would eat that.  And pop tart for every breakfast.  I don't know...I just think if they keep getting junk food they will never eat good food.

[Guest]

I know I totally don't get the picky eater thing. I guess the best you can do is not let them have junk food in place of real food....even if the 'real' food is not the best.

 

My best friend's ds was/is super picky. But she would keep Funions in the house and he would eat that. And pop tart for every breakfast. I don't know...I just think if they keep getting junk food they will never eat good food.

There are degrees here as well. My picky kids have been worked out of it with time and exposure except for a few foods they just won't tolerate (instant gag reflex), but when you get into more serious sensory processing issues underlying the eating symptoms it's a different ballgame and the solutions that work for most families are big fail for these people, even with clinical help it isn't always surmountable. Sometimes the goal is 'basic nutrition by hook or crook' at that point, but that's not what most parents are dealing with thankfully :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Protein isn't why people are fat - I have never, in over a decade of studying nutrition and weight management, seen a study suggesting that even excess protein is a causative factor in obesity. Can you cite something I haven't seen that actually proves that and doesn't have massive confounders? I'd be genuinely interested to see it.

 

And despite the name, Protein Power and other similarly formulated diets are high fat and low carb - the protein is moderate at best and characterizing them as high protein is incorrect. When you're dealing with profound obesity it has been a standard clinical first line treatment for a reason and is a good starting point for proving or eliminating insulin signaling as an issue at play. This is biochemistry, not woo or anecdote, though the latter does often support the same approach as we would expect it would with the metabolic issues at play. The very best technical-but-well-explained reading on the topic:

https://www.amazon.com/World-Turned-Upside-Down/dp/0979201829

 

Now, 10-20% of the population, regardless of weight, is not going to respond best to this diet. Individual variation does matter. But among your obese populations, especially those who gained excess fat mass earlier in life than later, the percentage of those who are dealing with energy storage and processing issues is much higher than among, say, normal body weight middle aged women. Why would this surprise anyone?

 

Yeah if you can't control hunger, forget it.  The person won't manage it.  There is refraining from extra junk for the sake of eating extra junk, but a lot of people who overeat truly feel hungry.  Protein can help control hunger a lot better than sugar and carbs.  And a lot of people sing the praises of fruits, but too many fruits can be problematic because they have a lot of sugar in them.  When people say that to me that makes sense if you are staring down two choices: a candy bar or an apple.  Go with the apple.  But when we are talking about a feeling of constant hunger it's not a good idea to tell most people go eat as many apples as you need until you feel full.  That might be 10.

[Scarlett]

Protein isn't why people are fat - I have never, in over a decade of studying nutrition and weight management, seen a study suggesting that even excess protein is a causative factor in obesity. Can you cite something I haven't seen that actually proves that and doesn't have massive confounders? I'd be genuinely interested to see it.

 

And despite the name, Protein Power and other similarly formulated diets are high fat and low carb - the protein is moderate at best and characterizing them as high protein is incorrect. When you're dealing with profound obesity it has been a standard clinical first line treatment for a reason and is a good starting point for proving or eliminating insulin signaling as an issue at play. This is biochemistry, not woo or anecdote, though the latter does often support the same approach as we would expect it would with the metabolic dysfunction and disregulation that causes massive accumulation of fat tissue and drives hunger. The very best technical-but-well-explained reading on the topic:

https://www.amazon.com/World-Turned-Upside-Down/dp/0979201829

 

Now, 10-20% of the population, regardless of weight, is not going to respond best to this diet. Individual variation does matter. But among your obese populations, especially those who gained excess fat mass earlier in life than later, the percentage of those who are dealing with energy storage and processing issues is much higher than among, say, normal body weight middle aged women. Why would this surprise anyone?

 

 

This is why I want dss15 to do something now.  And why I hope the OP helps her 7 year old now.  

 

btw, the breakfast I made for dss15 and myself.  It was amazing in staying power.  It has been over 3 hours and he still isn't hungry and I only ate a bowl of jambalaya because I have to leave the house for a few hours and I don't want to get so hungry I go get junk food.

[regentrude]

Huh.  I'll have to ask my BIL if they do it that way in his neck of the woods.  Sounds rather posh.  LOL

 

Here in the district they do have breakfast and lunch (we never had breakfast when I was in school).  But breakfast is before school so you have to get there early.  Growing up we got 15 minutes for lunch.  That wasn't enough time.  Many times I just didn't eat. 

 

The schools in my home state all still have cafeterias and serve full meals. It is not "posh", just a warm meal. A workplace cafeteria would also serve the employees a meat&potato/pasta type warm meal, not just what we consider lunch foods in the US.

In some Western states, schools do not have any facilities for that and this poses a problem when they want to expand to full day programs. But in Saxony that is the norm. Schools have a 45 minute lunch break between periods so kids can take their time and actually eat a meal.

[poppy]

Protein isn't why people are fat - I have never, in over a decade of studying nutrition and weight management, seen a study suggesting that even excess protein is a causative factor in obesity. Can you cite something I haven't seen that actually proves that and doesn't have massive confounders? I'd be genuinely interested to see it.

 

And despite the name, Protein Power and other similarly formulated diets are high fat and low carb - the protein is moderate at best and characterizing them as high protein is incorrect. When you're dealing with profound obesity it has been a standard clinical first line treatment for a reason and is a good starting point for proving or eliminating insulin signaling as an issue at play. This is biochemistry, not woo or anecdote, though the latter does often support the same approach as we would expect it would with the metabolic dysfunction and disregulation that causes massive accumulation of fat tissue and drives hunger. The very best technical-but-well-explained reading on the topic:

https://www.amazon.com/World-Turned-Upside-Down/dp/0979201829

 

Now, 10-20% of the population, regardless of weight, is not going to respond best to this diet. Individual variation does matter. But among your obese populations, especially those who gained excess fat mass earlier in life than later, the percentage of those who are dealing with energy storage and processing issues is much higher than among, say, normal body weight middle aged women. Why would this surprise anyone?

'Cite something I haven't seen' is fairly impossible as a request.

 

I have seen extremely contradictory studies each of which has vehement defenders . I do not believe any one program works for 90% of people in any case. If it works for you and has made your life much better that is fantastic. Congratulations!!

[regentrude]

Like my grandfather grew up during times where getting enough food was an issue and where it was ok to smack your kid upside the head if he didn't listen.  He died a picky man.  That didn't change it. 

 

My grandmother was born in 1915, during WWI. As a kid, she had to attend some kind of camp and they force fed them a milk based pudding - she could not even stand the smell and threw up, and even in her 80s still recalled the smell and the sensation with revulsion. Those were certainly times when food was not abundantly available.

My other Grandma, born in 1897, lived through both wars, was a refugee, lived through post war famine - still, there were foods she could not bring herself to eat.

[Guest]

'Cite something I haven't seen' is fairly impossible as a request.

 

I have seen extremely contradictory studies each of which has vehement defenders . I do not believe any one program works for 90% of people in any case. If it works for you and has made your life much better that is fantastic. Congratulations!!

Protein in excess of demand for body size as causative (or even strongly correlated) in obesity, just from Pubmed. What have you seen? I cannot think of a single study that establishes that. I'm happy to read through some of them if you have them but even from the pro-plant food, calorie restriction crowd I have never seen that.

 

So, data? I'm always up for more learning.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Julie Smith]

In most cases, for most kids, if there isn't a medical problem, and a kid tries a food 3-10 times, they will like it even if they hate it at first.  Especially if you combine it with sugar, salt, and fat.

 

 

I have tired some things many times. I still can't enjoy almost any type of dessert. Apple pie, well any time of dessert pie, cheese cake, fancy muffins, most cakes, ... You can 't get much more sugar, salt and fat in those things. But still, ick! 

 

As a kid the thing I had the most trouble eating where anything that was combinations. I would be okay with raw broccoli. But cook it, in any way and it would just become awful. Raw bell peppers (not a favorite but doable), fresh green peas, raw green peas and I'm good. Cook them in some way or even worse combine them and cook them and it would be a major chore to eat them. 

 

 

I was a working adult before I was willing to try combining together: Burger, Bun, Ketchup. It just always sounded like such a strange combination I would have my burger plain and discreetly eat the burger out of the bun, then the bun. 

 

I am much better with food now. A major part of that was becoming vegetarian as a teenager. It allowed me cross off so many foods I couldn't tolerate - that I felt I was able to handle the ones that were left. 

 

 

I also want to add my voice to those who say they are fine eating no meat or eggs for breakfast. 

 

I'm a vegetarian who dislikes, strongly dislikes eggs. For breakfast I'm good with a banana, and if hungry perhaps some vegetables. - preferably raw without dip. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I know I totally don't get the picky eater thing.  I guess the best you can do is not let them have junk food in place of real food....even if the 'real' food is not the best.

 

My best friend's ds was/is super picky.  But she would keep Funions in the house and he would eat that.  And pop tart for every breakfast.  I don't know...I just think if they keep getting junk food they will never eat good food.

 

Well that's just it.  His diet is about 90% noodles with hot sauce.  That's mostly what he eats.  For breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  He will eat some citrus fruits, but they can't be bitter (hard to find ones that aren't bitter).  He'll eat some berries, but those are seasonal and very expensive.  Granny smith apples, but they have to be very firm.  And of all things he loves canned sea food (herring, octopus, sardines). 

 

He'll eat meat and eggs, but he is usually too lazy to cook them and he is very particular about how they are seasoned, textures, etc. 

[Katy]

Oh boy.  This was supposed to be about overweight kids, not about abusive parents trying to force things down a child's throat.  All I'm saying is that for most older kids without medical or sensory problems, it's fine for them to not snack or to only snack on healthy foods.

 

An easy way to determine whether a child is actually hungry or is simply wanting to eat because they are bored is to feed them only healthy foods, not highly palatable highly processed foods with tons of sugar, salt, and fat that act as drugs.  BTW, for those of you unfamiliar with the term "highly palatable" that is a food industry term for foods that taste SO good they act like drugs, increase your appetite and turn down your ability to mindfully eat.  The sorts of things you can mindlessly eat a whole bag of and never have enough, and are horrified when you realize you just ate 1500 calories in ten minutes.  They are almost always a combination of high amounts of sugar, salt, and fat.

 

If a child refuses to eat everything healthy, that is not just being a super taster.  I'm a super taster, and I'm telling you, you can acquire tastes for healthy foods if you are exposed to them repeatedly and aren't fed only junk food.  If you have the type of child who won't eat anything not made of flour and cheese powder, well then I recommend you ask their pediatrician for a referral to some sort of feeding clinic because it sounds as if some sort of health problem is in their future.  Kids need fruits and vegetables.  This is not controversial information. No, I don't have kids that are THAT picky.  I do have a rule that we try new foods at least twice per week, and they must eat 3 bites of every food, whether they like it or not.  That's our food culture. That is what is normal to them. If for some reason they refuse, that's fine, no dessert for you.

 

But again, I wasn't lecturing parents of kids with issues not eating enough foods.  I was just saying, to stop random snacking with obese children, offer fruits and veggies.  If that doesn't work for you, take my advice for what it is:  random advice from someone on the internet that you don't know.

 

Potatoes are healthier than rice or pasta.  Go to cronometer.com and add a serving of each to the day, and compare the nutrient/calorie ratios for all three and see for yourself.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

Potatoes are healthier than rice or pasta.  Go to cronometer.com and add a serving of each to the day, and compare the nutrient/calorie ratios for all three and see for yourself.

 

But I'm pretty sure my kid would still gain too much weight on a diet of mostly potatoes (same as a diet of mostly noodles). 

 

Nobody is going to say, oh well he is overweight, but he's healthy because he eats tons of potatoes. 

[Guest]

I love potatoes - why can't those tasty spuds love me baaaack!?

 

One of my favorite things I learned in the UK as a kid was to eat roast potatoes with malt vinegar. It's still my absolute favorite prep of them and one of those foods I try to remember to eat at Christmas when I'm off plan :o

[poppy]

Protein in excess of demand for body size as causative (or even strongly correlated) in obesity, just from Pubmed. What have you seen? I cannot think of a single study that establishes that. I'm happy to read through some of them if you have them but even from the pro-plant food, calorie restriction crowd I have never seen that.

 

So, data? I'm always up for more learning.

.

You must have misread me. I did not say that protein causes obesity . I said that American are obsessed with protein . Always have been in my family memory (3 generations) . Continues in my family. The people haven't changed sizes but they now talk about protein more . I am sure it works for some people, though.

[Guest]

.

You must have misread me. I did not say that protein causes obesity . I said that American are obsessed with protein . Always have been in my family memory (3 generations) . Continues in my family. The people haven't changed sizes but they now talk about protein more . I am sure it works for some people, though.

Hmm...

 

All else being equal, protein is strongly linked with satiety. Even on extremely low fat plans it's key. Generally speaking protein and fiber are helpful for that - one by bulk and one by hormones. That's probably what they're referring to. It won't solve a weight problem on its own but exchanging a starch for protein and veggies is a good way to increase the satiety of any meal without a 'diet' per se. Many of the better diets from the 30's-50's operated on the same principle, so that could explain where they came by it. It's not new as a suggestion and if hunger is an issue protein content of a meal is a good first solution to try it a diet overhaul isn't needed. Does that make more sense?

 

I personally find protein very self limiting and fat is better for me for satiety, but that's more dependent on the individual's specific metabolic needs.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Bluegoat]

But I'm pretty sure my kid would still gain too much weight on a diet of mostly potatoes (same as a diet of mostly noodles). 

 

Nobody is going to say, oh well he is overweight, but he's healthy because he eats tons of potatoes. 

 

He'd actually be healthier, though.

[SparklyUnicorn]

He'd actually be healthier, though.

 

I doubt it.

[Hilltopmom]

We had same conversation at Peds last week for my 16 yr old. He knows he's overweight. He is not interested in adding exercise, not really.

He doesn't want to cut back on food he likes (picky kid, prefers carbs). we already don't drink soda or keep chips in the house (the " easy" things to remove that Drs always suggest).

Can't make a 16 yr old do anything, they need to buy in. Not sure how to get that.

 

We're doing college visits & he was thrilled by the all you can eat buffets & my thought was "oh no, it's going to be much more than the freshman 15:("

 

Eta- I'm not one to talk, I've been carrying an extra 50 lbs for about 6 years now. I know, I know.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Hilltopmom

[SKL]

Oh yeah I know we have all had this discussion here on the boards too many times before, but this whole "I don't tolerate pickiness" business is just...yeah right.  Then you don't have a picky kid or you don't know what it means to be picky.  Maybe it would be better if there was another word for it. 

 

Like my grandfather grew up during times where getting enough food was an issue and where it was ok to smack your kid upside the head if he didn't listen.  He died a picky man.  That didn't change it. 

 

The other day I was chatting with my mom and the topic of food pickiness came up.  My mom started talking about how it was when we were kids.  Starting with the rules and what she didn't put up with.  Then she also recalled some funny [in retrospect] refusal/avoidance incidents, and the fact that at least one of my brothers may still have never eaten a green vegetable to this day.  :P

 

Last week I got mad at my kids for refusing something they liked just fine a month ago.  I didn't beat anyone, I didn't starve anyone, but I handed the job of cooking dinner off to my kids, indefinitely.  :P  Now, they can cook whatever they want.  But even with that, they still can't decide what to eat.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The other day I was chatting with my mom and the topic of food pickiness came up.  My mom started talking about how it was when we were kids.  Starting with the rules and what she didn't put up with.  Then she also recalled some funny [in retrospect] refusal/avoidance incidents, and the fact that at least one of my brothers may still have never eaten a green vegetable to this day.  :p

 

Last week I got mad at my kids for refusing something they liked just fine a month ago.  I didn't beat anyone, I didn't starve anyone, but I handed the job of cooking dinner off to my kids, indefinitely.  :p  Now, they can cook whatever they want.  But even with that, they still can't decide what to eat.

 

Oh yeah there is a definite distinction between picky and don't feel like eating this thing today.

 

All the advice and tactics work beautifully with my younger kid.  I can tell him, "This is healthy you should eat it."  And he will.  If he says he does not like something and I say oh just try a bite and if you still don't like it ok.  And he will and often will keep eating it.  Really he is ridiculously easy to deal with when it comes to food.

 

My older kid?  I gave up.  Quite some time ago.  And he's almost 15 now so really, forget about it. 

[SKL]

FTR it is possible to get too much protein.  Protein is overrated in the USA.  Most of us easily get more than what we need, though we may eat it at a non-ideal time of day (per some theories).

[SparklyUnicorn]

I won't recommend my kid go low carb even though I think it's healthy because this would cut down the very short list of foods he's willing to eat even more.  So it's kinda like what do ya do?  That'll have to be something he finds a solution to I guess. 

[SKL]

And you can't apply grown-up dieting logic to growing kids.

[SparklyUnicorn]

And you can't apply grown-up dieting logic to growing kids.

 

That's a good point because they are still growing and need more food than we do. 

 

That's the challenge with food.  You can't live without it and seemingly sometimes you can't live with it either.

[SKL]

Ultimately some people are just going to be fat.  My sister was always chubby to obese.  She had the same lifestyle we skinny siblings had.  Ran around and kept up with the older kids.  Ate whatever scraps were available around the house like the rest of us.  (Our house did not contain excess food, snacky or junky or otherwise.)  At some point it is what it is.  Yes, my mom tried to help her and no, it didn't change who she was.

[hornblower]

FTR it is possible to get too much protein.  Protein is overrated in the USA.  Most of us easily get more than what we need, though we may eat it at a non-ideal time of day (per some theories).

 

Yes. In fact among the competing loud voices yelling at us about diet, there's a 2015 book called Proteinaholic. 

 

Excess protein, esp animal protein is highly correlated with kidney stones. 

 

 

Fwiw, the JAMA 2014 meta analysis found no difference in diets w/ varying macronutrients. Pick any diet that you'll stick with & which causes you to lose & maintain weight. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1900510

 

I really think the biggest thing is realizing it's not a diet. It's forever. 

 

 

eta - fixing link

Edited November 2, 2016 by hornblower

[poppy]

Hmm...

 

All else being equal, protein is strongly linked with satiety. Even on extremely low fat plans it's key. Generally speaking protein and fiber are helpful for that - one by bulk and one by hormones. That's probably what they're referring to. It won't solve a weight problem on its own but exchanging a starch for protein and veggies is a good way to increase the satiety of any meal without a 'diet' per se. Many of the better diets from the 30's-50's operated on the same principle, so that could explain where they came by it. It's not new as a suggestion and if hunger is an issue protein content of a meal is a good first solution to try it a diet overhaul isn't needed. Does that make more sense?

 

I personally find protein very self limiting and fat is better for me for satiety, but that's more dependent on the individual's specific metabolic needs.

 

We should just all eat like the Japanese- the traditional diet. Very healthy. Too bad I don't like fish.

[SparklyUnicorn]

We should just all eat like the Japanese- the traditional diet. Very healthy. Too bad I don't like fish.

 

Oh and if we want to start talking about fish.... That is a whole other can of worms.  I'd like to know if there is any safe fish out there!  That doesn't cost $20 a pound!

[Bluegoat]

I doubt it.

Why?  Potatoes have lots of good things in them.

[Katy]

Several people have done long-term potato fasts and gotten dramatically healthier.  Baked potatoes are also one of the the most filling food per calorie.  For some reason that is not fully understood, but probably has to do with resistant starch, they do not have the same effect on the body as other carbs.

 

The only thing that makes them bad for you is the toppings.  Avoid butter and sour cream, top them with salsa or beans, and they are very filling and low in calories.  And super nutritious, especially if you eat the skins too.

[Guest]

And you can't apply grown-up dieting logic to growing kids.

Depends on the age. A high schooler? I am a big believer in giving them solid resources so they can learn if they want to. Littler kids? Setting them up for success by what choices are made for the whole family is as far as I go. But by the time puberty is setting in it's better to give them resource access and let the rest be their choice.

[Guest]

Yes. In fact among the competing loud voices yelling at us about diet, there's a 2015 book called Proteinaholic.

 

Excess protein, esp animal protein is highly correlated with kidney stones.

 

 

Fwiw, the JAMA 2014 meta analysis found no difference in diets w/ varying macronutrients. Pick any diet that you'll stick with & which causes you to lose & maintain weight. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1900510

 

I really think the biggest thing is realizing it's not a diet. It's forever.

 

 

eta - fixing link

Kidney stones are only dietarily linked with other confounding factors, including overall dietary composition, activity, and most strongly - genetics. Correlation doesn't equal causation and animal protein is not *causal* to kidney stones in a randomized trial of individuals. It is correlated among groups of individuals already suffering and grouped with other risk factors, not independent of them.

 

The JAMA meta-analysis is junk, as most are. You cannot compare a bunch of studies of random size and sample quality, duration, limits, and composition and clean meaningful data from such a corrupted set. It's not JAMA specifically but a flaw in using that method to distill any sort of statistical conclusion.

 

Furthermore, different dietary compositions absolutelt yield varying outcomes in the lab, and for reasons that are entirely predictable. There are sweet spots on both ends of the spectrum, which I linked a few weeks ago with Denise Minger, as well as completely explicable mechanisms for this which Richard David Feinman explains in the book I linked upthread, this one:

https://www.amazon.com/World-Turned-Upside-Down-Low-Carbohydrate-ebook/dp/B00QZDORCI

 

From the same guy, this is a really good primer on why meta-analyses are really useless, whether the support the conclusion you want to prove or not.

https://feinmantheother.com/2015/08/12/meta-analysis-is-to-analysis/

 

I recommend hboth of their blogs in general for the exacting detail and fairness with which they explore the data, as well as their science backgrounds.

 

 

I forgot to add - I totally agree that the diet you can live with that optimizes your preferences and health is the best choice of all. That doesn't mean they all function equally well and are all equal in quality and outcome, but that we are individual and adherence matters too.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[hornblower]

.  And super nutritious, especially if you eat the skins too.

Do people mean russets when they say that?  I'll do it with yellow skin etc but on russets - bleh.  How can you make those taste good (apart from deep frying & drenching with cheese - which is how a restaurant here serves them. I hope those people aren't telling themselves it's healthy lol)