StaceyinLA Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 My niece is a teacher, and someone tagged her in an article recently that basically talks about how teaching grammar doesn't have any impact overall on a person's writing/speaking skills. It seemed to promote the idea of not teaching grammar alone as a subject. Has anyone ever read anything like this? I'm just trying to find the study, and have been unable to go back and locate it on my niece's Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Andrew Pudewa has a talk on something like this where it's actually the English Teacher's membership or something that are some of the most adamant against teaching grammar in public schools. Maybe it was on his podcast. If I can find it I will post for you. I think there's been a large anti-grammar movement for some time. I would love to see the study if you find it. My dd's previous public schools taught neither grammar nor spelling. They were running a pilot under the guise that kids would pick it up naturally. Dd did pick up spelling, but we are doing grammar now as part of high school. Wish we had started in 7th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 This article links to some studies: https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-us&hl=en-US&oe=utf-8&safe=images&q=google+scholar+effect+of+teaching+grammar&source=browser-type&qsubts=1476279496392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) This? It does sound logical to me to not overdose on grammar lessons unless a child/student needs it. http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/the-wrong-way-to-teach-grammar/284014/ "In 1984, George Hillocks, a renowned professor of English and Education at the University of Chicago, published an analysis of the research on teaching writing. He concluded that, “School boards, administrators, and teachers who impose the systematic study of traditional school grammar on their students over lengthy periods of time in the name of teaching writing do them a gross disservice that should not be tolerated by anyone concerned with the effective teaching of good writing.â€" Edited October 12, 2016 by Arcadia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 My dd's previous public schools taught neither grammar nor spelling. They were running a pilot under the guise that kids would pick it up naturally.I think there's also an assumption among people who are pro-formal grammar teaching that kids will *naturally* apply their formal grammar knowledge to their writing. (Or, among grammar experts, that teachers will naturally connect formal grammar to writing.). Either way, people expect the promised practical results of formal grammar study to flower naturally, without deliberate effort on anyone's part - and when it too often doesn't, people assume the problem is that formal study is worthless, not that people need *explicit help* applying their formal knowledge to writing. I think part of this is the inherent difficulty in connecting formal knowledge of anything to practical, intuitive knowledge of life (math has long had this problem) and part of this is that we've lost a lot of practical grammar knowledge and knowledge of how to teach grammar. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 This? It does sound logical to me to not overdose on grammar lessons unless a child/student needs it. http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/the-wrong-way-to-teach-grammar/284014/ "In 1984, George Hillocks, a renowned professor of English and Education at the University of Chicago, published an analysis of the research on teaching writing. He concluded that, “School boards, administrators, and teachers who impose the systematic study of traditional school grammar on their students over lengthy periods of time in the name of teaching writing do them a gross disservice that should not be tolerated by anyone concerned with the effective teaching of good writing.â€" That's the article I tried to link to! Somehow I copied the wrong link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 We learn to speak by listening and speaking, makes sense that we learn to write by reading and writing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 We learn to speak by listening and speaking, makes sense that we learn to write by reading and writing. I agree and we do not teach grammar explicitly here but I wonder (philosophically) if some languages lend themselves more to this "living language" approach than others. French grammar is kicking our butts here, sure, because it is a foreign language, but I think it kicks the butts of native French kids, too (which is why they do conjugation drills and dictation for a long time)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I agree and we do not teach grammar explicitly here but I wonder (philosophically) if some languages lend themselves more to this "living language" approach than others. French grammar is kicking our butts here, sure, because it is a foreign language, but I think it kicks the butts of native French kids, too (which is why they do conjugation drills and dictation for a long time)... Its really the spelling that kicks the butts of French kids, they don't have any trouble using the right conjugation when speaking. Remembering when an ending is spelled é vs. ée, er, ez, ais, ait, aient, etc. when they're all pronounced the same way can be tricky. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 As someone who picked it up naturally but was never taught grammar formally, I have gained so so much from going through it with my kids. SWB'S talk rang true for me, that the natural grammar will take you through to about first year university, then the ideas become more complex. That is exactly what happened to me, the writing that I got away with in high school didn't cut it and I didn't know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I am a strong proponent of teaching grammar, but my approach is to teach in context and grammar instruction is completely intertwined with writing instruction (and editing writing). Is it useless? My Dd has been told that her grammar knowledge has been an invaluable strength in her mastery of foreign languages. She is a strong language student. Grammar instruction has definitely benefited her bc foreign language study is a large part of her college goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lots-o-rice Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I have come to the same conclusion that grammar really doesn't help that much. I have been doing formal grammar with my 3 oldest since 3rd grade, but I don't see my kids applying any of the concepts to their writing. My kids tend to see grammar and writing as 2 completely different subjects. My youngest is now doing more grammar in context of proofreading and writing instead of plain grammar, and I do see her writing improving. Seriously when will anyone ask a person to diagram a sentence; it's not practical. I do agree with the pp about her daughter needing grammar for languages. I, too, am a foreign language teacher, and I now am learning a 3rd language. Knowledge of grammar has helped me so much in learning new languages. For language learners, it is invaluable. -K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmrich Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Formal grammar instruction is not time intensive. It can easily be done in 15 - 20 minutes a day for four days a week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Ditto about grammar helping learn foreign language. I am so thankful that we do R&S English because of the advantage it has given my child in his high school level German class. All of that diagramming has turned out to be invaluable! As far as an effect on writing, I think that would be difficult to measure. It certainly helps to have a grammar background when editing a paper or explaining the edits to the student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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