How Well Do You Know the Subjects You're Teaching?

[Arcadia]

It is hard to tell from forum posts about someone's ability. Even in real life friends won't know all your abilities. For example, my language proofreading skills is a lot better for official correspondence than board posts or personal emails.

 

Also I could be posting something like I am learning calculus alongside my kid. Just means I have forgotten some terminology like what is the formal definition of L'Hopitals rule or Taylor Series. Sometimes I even forget how to spell Pythagorean. Same for literary analysis, I had forgotten some terms and have never learnt some terms, so I am reviewing while my older kid is learning.

 

People have different definitions of "teaching" and "outsourcing".

I agree.

[Arcadia]

Which high schools offer organic chemistry? I guess I thought we were talking about homeschooling courses offered in elementary/high schools. The regular courses. Not special courses or courses that are at highly advanced levels.

Some high schools do offer.

Below link is first hit I got in Google search, a school in Houston, TX

http://www.houstonisd.org/cms/lib2/TX01001591/Centricity/Domain/27674/Organic%20Chemistry%20Syllabus%20Final%20Version.doc

[Runningmom80]

ETA: Nevermind, life is too short. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Runningmom80

[SparklyUnicorn]

mathnerd, I think the bolded is the issue here. I consider using MOOCs and GC outsourcing, too, because the teaching is done by an expert who is not the parent.

I suspect part of the disagreement stems from the fact that the people who got offended at your statement think of oursourcing solely as expensive college classes or private tutors.

 

This pretty much sums it up for me.  I don't quite see something like Teaching Company videos as outsourcing.  If that is the case then I outsource everything I do.  Meaning I haven't created any original material and I rely on material created by others.  To me Teaching Company videos are somewhat like books presented in a different format. 

 

It's somewhat offensive because basically it sounds to me like something isn't worthwhile educationally speaking if I didn't spend a lot of money on it. 

[mathnerd]

 

It's somewhat offensive because basically it sounds to me like something isn't worthwhile educationally speaking if I didn't spend a lot of money on it. 

Actually, the opposite - I think that Khan academy is pretty good for some things - and it is free and I think that an expert teaches the subject (outsourced in my mind).

 

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/organic-chemistry

 

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/chemistry/5-12-organic-chemistry-i-spring-2005/

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by mathnerd

[regentrude]

This pretty much sums it up for me.  I don't quite see something like Teaching Company videos as outsourcing.  If that is the case then I outsource everything I do.  Meaning I haven't created any original material and I rely on material created by others.  To me Teaching Company videos are somewhat like books presented in a different format. 

 

It's somewhat offensive because basically it sounds to me like something isn't worthwhile educationally speaking if I didn't spend a lot of money on it. 

 

I have not seen anybody mentioning money or the need for something expensive.

 

But I won't pretend I am the one "teaching" history if I use a history prof to lecture via CD. She is the one teaching.

 

Just like I don't think that any person who has their student watch my physics lecture videos is teaching physics - *I* am the one doing the teaching in this scenario. I am happy to assist that person in facilitating her student's physics learning, but it's me teaching, not her.

Edited September 16, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I don't think that outsourcing is solely college classes or private tutors, but that's how it comes off in this thread because everything else would seemingly be unqualified. 

 

Not sure where you get this from. Which post claims that using other means of outsourcing - GC (which are very popular among homeschoolers), MOOCs, online classes are "unqualified"?

[Guest]

The problem with the OP and subsequent posts, is that she implied that women who cop to learning alongside their children "maaaaaaaaaaaaybe" are doing their kids a disservice. The reason that attitude us a problem is that it ignores several realities. How people learn, first of all, what is actually required when you're nurturing a gifted learner, second of all. I won't even mention the financial aspects of those implications because I know, I know! there's a bunch of free things out there or you can "just" get a part time job, etc...

[regentrude]

 I won't even mention the financial aspects of those implications because I know, I know! there's a bunch of free things out there or you can "just" get a part time job, etc...

 

A person obviously cannot "just" get a part time job - but yes, there are plenty of educational resources available for free (if you can swing an internet connection) or nearly free (if the postal service delivers to your home), so that finances actually are not an issue. You lumping those things together seems to imply that you find the suggestion of free education as ludicrous as the "just getting a part time job".

Edited September 16, 2016 by regentrude

[Guest]

A person obviously cannot "just" get a part time job - but yes, there are plenty of educational resources available for free (if you can swing an internet connection) or nearly free (if the postal service delivers to your home), so that finances actually are not an issue. You lumping those things together seems to imply that you find the suggestion of free education as ludicrous as the "just getting a part time job".

False. I lumped them together because I didn't want to detract from my main point by discussing either of them.

[Wheres Toto]

The problem with the OP and subsequent posts, is that she implied that women who cop to learning alongside their children "maaaaaaaaaaaaybe" are doing their kids a disservice. The reason that attitude us a problem is that it ignores several realities. How people learn, first of all, what is actually required when you're nurturing a gifted learner, second of all. I won't even mention the financial aspects of those implications because I know, I know! there's a bunch of free things out there or you can "just" get a part time job, etc...

 

I don't know if I agree that this is what she was implying but I also don't really have a problem with this implication.  It is possible that a person who is trying to learn a very hard subject alongside their kids, MAY be doing their kids a disservice if the kid is struggling and they don't look for other alternatives.

 

I barely passed college calculus (and dropped it in high school).  Two tries with qualified teachers and I STILL can't do calculus.  For me to try learning alongside my kids and give them a good understanding of calculus, COULD end up being a disservice to them.  IF they are able to understand it from whatever text or curriculum we end up using with just some general discussion/sounding-board type interaction, they will probably be fine with nothing more.  But IF they are struggling and just can't understand it, I would be doing them a disservice if I don't find someone else to TEACH them calculus.  Whether that ends up being a CC class, a MOOC, a video course, internet resources, whatever - they will NEED something more than me trying to figure it out alongside them.

[Guest]

I don't know if I agree that this is what she was implying but I also don't really have a problem with this implication. It is possible that a person who is trying to learn a very hard subject alongside their kids, MAY be doing their kids a disservice if the kid is struggling and they don't look for other alternatives.

 

I barely passed college calculus (and dropped it in high school). Two tries with qualified teachers and I STILL can't do calculus. For me to try learning alongside my kids and give them a good understanding of calculus, COULD end up being a disservice to them. IF they are able to understand it from whatever text or curriculum we end up using with just some general discussion/sounding-board type interaction, they will probably be fine with nothing more. But IF they are struggling and just can't understand it, I would be doing them a disservice if I don't find someone else to TEACH them calculus. Whether that ends up being a CC class, a MOOC, a video course, internet resources, whatever - they will NEED something more than me trying to figure it out alongside them.

Look at this, though. You tried, with teachers, to learn something. And failed, you say.

 

But if some woman says she's learning calculus alongside her kids, the logic here is that she's doing then a disservice.

 

But something like calculus can wholly be done in the students own time, in college. The fact that they are even trying to do it together at all is commendable... And the thing that's happening NOW is not usually the end of the story irt to that particular subject.

 

Or it can not be done on the student's own time, as the case- your case- may be.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Look at this, though. You tried, with teachers, to learn something. And failed, you say.

 

But if some woman says she's learning calculus alongside her kids, the logic here is that she's doing then a disservice.

 

But something like calculus can wholly be done in the students own time, in college. The fact that they are even trying to do it together at all is commendable... And the thing that's happening NOW is not usually the end of the story irt to that particular subject.

 

Or it can not be done on the student's own time, as the case- your case- may be.

 

Yes

 

That might not have been the intention of anyone here, but this is how it comes across to me. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

A person obviously cannot "just" get a part time job - but yes, there are plenty of educational resources available for free (if you can swing an internet connection) or nearly free (if the postal service delivers to your home), so that finances actually are not an issue. You lumping those things together seems to imply that you find the suggestion of free education as ludicrous as the "just getting a part time job".

 

Ok, but if I read from books and learn alongside my kid that's not accessing an expert.  So therefore I am doing a disserve to my kid because he isn't learning from experts. 

 

Books are possible expert sources, but at this rate what is this conversation even about?  

[lewelma]

 

I didn't question anyone's ability to homeschool; I questioned whether or not someone learning Algebra I (or similar type subject) can effectively teach it to a child by staying one day ahead. 

 

I questioned whether or not a parent is doing a child a disservice by not seeking out others (whether that's a live class, DIVE videos, Kahn Academy) to teach or help teach a subject that you do not have a deep understanding or subject expertise especially as the child moves toward high school courses and preparing for college.

 

But this is the thing, I am NOT *teaching* my kids, so I don't have to stay one day ahead.  I am learning *with* them.  There is a difference.  Do you understand the difference?

 

As for doing them a disservice, I got my ds into the NZ Olympiad Math Camp that first year. Me.  And I did it with knowledge only up to Algebra 2, because I had forgotten all the rest of the math I had learned in high school.  I got him up to olympiad problem solving level by getting myself up to that level *at the same time*.  3 hours a day for 6 months at least.  Who are you going to outsource to?  That is simply not the way the material works. You can't read a book or watch a lecture and become an olympian problem solver.  Just won't work.  

 

I have also co-learned every high school class my ds has taken with the exception of Mandarin, Music, and Math.  Physics, Chemistry, Economics, Philosophy, English, etc.  I have no subject matter expertise in these fields, but my ds has taken nationally moderated exams and consistently scored in the top 1%. 

 

I'm with those who have said that children are not buckets to fill.  We do high level work over here.  Yes, we outsource, but I also co-learn a LOT of courses with great outcomes.  Perhaps there is a distinction that some are missing.  Does *learning* have to do with having material explained efficiently?  Or does learning have more to do with the skills of learning?  The skills of learning are much better modeled than taught explicitly.  As a subject matter tutor, I do WAY more work on modeling/helping with learning skills than on *teaching* content.  I was a teacher in a previous life and I have an education degree, and I will have to say that teachers can teach, but then the kids come to me to figure out how to learn.

 

Ruth in NZ

[SparklyUnicorn]

I didn't stay even one day ahead of my kid with math, but learned with him.  My math background was dismal.  Yes, now he is going to the CC for math, but not because I didn't think I could keep up.  I just knew I needed SOME sort of outside validation because we don't get credit (literally and figuratively) for self learning.  I figured go with his strongest subject to start. 

 

Oh and of course the fact it's a CC and not a university also means his education is crap.  I've been told that here on these boards as well. 

 

 

[Arcadia]

. Does *learning* have to do with having material explained efficiently? Or does learning have more to do with the skills of learning? The skills of learning are much better modeled than taught explicitly. As a subject matter tutor, I do WAY more work on modeling/helping with learning skills than on *teaching* content.

Reminds me of the Suzuki method. Not identical but there are similarities.

[Arcadia]

Oh and of course the fact it's a CC and not a university also means his education is crap. I've been told that here on these boards as well.

Class wars, homeschool edition.

 

With accelerated kids, I wonder how anyone would expect parents to keep up mentally and financially in all aspects from the get go. Even the gifted teachers in a gifted program can't keep up with all the kids under their care.

 

My parents didn't face any kind of societal pressure or ridicule for dumping me in public schools.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh definitely.  Modeling learning is ideal especially since the one thing I really can't quite do is to recreate a real classroom experience in my home.  So I think it's good for my kid to see me study and organize my time.  I give him a lot of tips for how to study certain types of material. 

 

Maybe I'm an expert at learning.  I've been learning for a very long time, and I've gotten pretty good at it.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Class wars, homeschool edition.

 

With accelerated kids, I wonder how anyone would expect parents to keep up mentally and financially in all aspects from the get go. Even the gifted teachers in a gifted program can't keep up with all the kids under their care.

 

My parents didn't face any kind of societal pressure or ridicule for dumping me in public schools.

 

Yep

 

It's ok.  I know he'll be fine. 

 

My parents not only didn't face any kind of social pressure for dumping me in public schools, they didn't particularly care about my education.  And they didn't feel bad about that fact either.  I don't know where I get my motivation from really. 

 

 

 

[quark]

This thread hits me with all kinds of feelings. On one hand, surprise that this is being asked on the AL board, on another hand, taken aback that another mom's approach is being questioned on a different homeschooling board without even knowing what their background is (because it sounds to me as if OP is only referring to forum posts, not from knowing this mom IRL). And if I had a third hand, I must also say I am very happy to read some of the responses because I feel so validated in my choices.

 

We've outsourced math because we could afford to (but we have also used free and more affordable options) but I fully facilitated our literature, writing and history discussions at home for the first two years worth of high school and honestly, I haven't come across any teacher who was willing like I was to build a love of literature or history as their main objective.

 

I could have pushed myself harder to find subject matter experts but honestly, they cost so much money! I am not willing to pay hundreds a month to give my son a good background in literature, history and writing (while also risking the possibility of him doing well in them but not loving the subjects). Most of them were running classes and perhaps limited by that option but their focus was usually on working with the student on analysis or facts as well as writing based on rubrics. I think for *my son* that would have been the "bucket dump" vs. "feed the fire" approach. So while classes might have helped, my student did not start off wanting to learn literature or history that way. For him to truly want to write at high school level and now college level, he had to love the subject matter thoroughly. I literally stayed one step ahead to find books and authors who would appeal to his quirky sense of what is good writing while he self learned and brought up most of the discussion points himself and it so very organically and naturally moved to a love of analysis and writing (he was very reluctant to write for years!). Many, many times he finished reading the books before I did. A couple of times I gave up on some books (but he continued) because I was spread thin with other responsibilities. No deadlines and so very importantly, no "you have to produce output to be able to do this level of work" expectations.

 

Wait, no deadlines? Yes that could be considered a disservice too. How can a kid learn to college level without deadlines right? Well, they can. Really. Because they end up wanting to learn so very much when you don't place all kinds of arbitrary expectations on them. And maybe that's what that mom the OP quoted in post #1 is trying to accomplish too.

 

Did we "outsource" lit and history at all? Oh yes, we used lots of GC lectures if that is considered outsourcing. DS audited one class from Mythgard one summer and used a very short summer CLRC class (but I was not happy with the latter -- subject matter expert right there with very disappointing teaching style). We did not outsource the first 2 years of high school history prior to his taking some courses at the CC.

 

Background: I do have an English BA but it's from a university no one has heard of from a country where English is considered the second language (but to be fair/ honest, it is my first). I can tell you that even if I have a PhD in English (which I don't), I could not have forced my son to write the way he is writing now (no amount of curriculum buying/ trying worked, including WWS and all the other cool stuff people talk about here) so while I do have some subject matter background, I really did have to work with him as a parent as well as a teacher. I had to find the method that worked for him. There was a lot of boy whispering going on in the background. More than skill, I brought a lot of my own love to the equation and I think it rubbed off well enough on my boy for him to want to embrace those subjects as his own.

[lewelma]

What a beautiful story, Quark. Thanks for sharing. 

[quark]

What a beautiful story, Quark. Thanks for sharing. 

 

So inspired by yours!

 

[regentrude]

I could have pushed myself harder to find subject matter experts but honestly, they cost so much money! I am not willing to pay hundreds a month to give my son a good background in literature, history and writing (while also risking the possibility of him doing well in them but not loving the subjects). Most of them were running classes and perhaps limited by that option but their focus was usually on working with the student on analysis or facts as well as writing based on rubrics. I think for *my son* that would have been the "bucket dump" vs. "feed the fire" approach. So while classes might have helped, my student did not start off wanting to learn literature or history that way. For him to truly want to write at high school level and now college level, he had to love the subject matter thoroughly. I literally stayed one step ahead to find books and authors who would appeal to his quirky sense of what is good writing while he self learned and brought up most of the discussion points himself and it so very organically and naturally moved to a love of analysis and writing (he was very reluctant to write for years!). Many, many times he finished reading the books before I did. A couple of times I gave up on some books (but he continued) because I was spread thin with other responsibilities. No deadlines and so very importantly, no "you have to produce output to be able to do this level of work" expectations.

 

Wait, no deadlines? Yes that could be considered a disservice too. How can a kid learn to college level without deadlines right? Well, they can. Really. Because they end up wanting to learn so very much when you don't place all kinds of arbitrary expectations on them. And maybe that's what that mom the OP quoted in post #1 is trying to accomplish too.

 

Did we "outsource" lit and history at all? Oh yes, we used lots of GC lectures if that is considered outsourcing. DS audited one class from Mythgard one summer and used a very short summer CLRC class (but I was not happy with the latter -- subject matter expert right there with very disappointing teaching style). We did not outsource the first 2 years of high school history prior to his taking some courses at the CC.

 

Background: I do have an English BA but it's from a university no one has heard of from a country where English is considered the second language (but to be fair/ honest, it is my first). I can tell you that even if I have a PhD in English (which I don't), I could not have forced my son to write the way he is writing now (no amount of curriculum buying/ trying worked, including WWS and all the other cool stuff people talk about here) so while I do have some subject matter background, I really did have to work with him as a parent as well as a teacher. I had to find the method that worked for him. There was a lot of boy whispering going on in the background. More than skill, I brought a lot of my own love to the equation and I think it rubbed off well enough on my boy for him to want to embrace those subjects as his own.

 

I like your post, because it illustrates very well how much can be accomplished through facilitation.

I have approached history and literature in a similar way as you did, without external classes and scripted curricula, on purpose because that worked for our goals. Having no humanities background and not being a native speaker of English, this initially caused me some anxiety, because I did not feel remotely competent to teach, but I quickly noticed that this was an area where my kids learned largely without a teacher (except for the excellent history lectures by the GC professors which we utilized liberally) if just given enough quality books and freedom to enjoy them. We almost unschooled English, so even my facilitating was minimal.

We never did a writing course, did not study formal grammar, did not practice literary analysis - yet my DD's college instructors were impressed by her analytical abilities and the level of her writing. 

 

Btw, we had a deadline free homeschool as well, and both my kids had not difficulties adjusting to the strict schedule of college classes once they started DE.

Edited September 16, 2016 by regentrude

[lewelma]

Perhaps when you need a subject matter expert is when you have a motivated student at a high level who already knows how to study and who is studying content that can be explicitly taught.  Then the bucket fill method is the most efficient.  

[regentrude]

Perhaps when you need a subject matter expert is when you have a motivated student at a high level who already knows how to study and who is studying content that can be explicitly taught.  Then the bucket fill method is the most efficient.  

 

I don't know whether subject expert = bucket fill method.

 

I tried to co-learn French with DD. I tried hard, because learning French was one of my own goals as well. Alas, after some years, we simply could not progress any further once we had reached a certain level - we needed the help of a person who was fluent in the language.

He did not "fill buckets". We simply needed somebody who could carry a conversation with us, help us improve our pronounciation, correct the mistakes in our compositions that I could not find myself. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by regentrude

[lewelma]

Right now for my 10th grader, I outsource music, math, mandarin. Co-learn physics, chemistry, and philosophy.  And for English I teach writing and facilitate literature study. Wow, that sounds so official given how chaotic my homeschool feels some days.  :tongue_smilie:

Edited September 16, 2016 by lewelma

[regentrude]

Right now for my 10th grader, I outsource music, math, mandarin. Co-learn physics, chemistry, and philosophy.  And for English I teach writing and facilitate literature study. Wow, that sounds so official given how chaotic my homeschool feels some days.  :tongue_smilie:

 

Makes perfect sense. We have a mix as well. With DS, we currently outsource English, facilitate history, teach math, unschool German ;)

[lewelma]

I don't know whether subject expert = bucket fill method.

 

I tried to co-learn French with DD. I tried hard, because learning French was one of my own goals as well. Alas, after some years, we simply could not progress any further once we had reached a certain level - we needed the help of a person who was fluent in the language.

He did not "fill buckets". We simply needed somebody who could carry a conversation with us, help us improve our pronounciation, correct the mistakes in our compositions that I could not find myself. 

 

I've thought about this one.  I think there are content subjects and skill subjects.  Bucket fill really only applies to content subjects I think.  Skill subjects clearly require experts at times too, but don't seem to feel like Bucket fill.  

 

Fun discussion.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh forget it with foreign languages (for me).  I admit I'm not motivated, but no I need help with that.  I do know of people who learn foreign languages easily on their own though. 

 

 

[quark]

Btw, we had a deadline free homeschool as well, and both my kids had not difficulties adjusting to the strict schedule of college classes once they started DE.

 

Yes! Yes! It was an effort for mine for a short time for physics and humanities classes because the pace was suddenly faster (it was never an effort in math college classes though) but it didn't take very long for him afterwards to manage his time confidently. I wrote to you one time about the physics lab reports if you remember. :001_smile: A few weeks later, it was no sweat!

[lewelma]

I think it was  "The art of reading" that organized all subjects into 4 categories:

Analytical (math, physics)

Synthesis (Biology, law)

Interpretative (English, History)

Production (Art, music, Foreign language)

 

Clearly there is overlap in lots of subjects (chemistry is both synthesis and analytical for example), but this division has helped me to think more clearly about how to learn.  I'm curious if some subjects like the interpretative ones can be facilitated better than the synthesis ones that require lots of content.  

[regentrude]

I've thought about this one.  I think there are content subjects and skill subjects.  Bucket fill really only applies to content subjects I think.  Skill subjects clearly require experts at times too, but don't seem to feel like Bucket fill.  

 

Fun discussion.

 

I wonder: can one really separate "content" vs "skill" subjects?

Clearly, writing and math are skill subjects.

Physics is also a skill subject because the student will not memorize facts, but acquire skills in problem solving. That's what physics is all about - applying physics principles to solve problems and deriving relationships.

Chemistry is similar; while there is some memorization, there is definitely a problem solving skill, in addition to laboratory skills.

Any historian will bristle at the notion that history is only about content and point out that thinking from a historical perspective, identifying historical trends and relationships etc are definitely skills.

 

So, I think at the high school (or maybe college?) level, most subjects transition from sole "content" to a "skill" subject.

[lewelma]

ah, read my next post.  I think we were posting at the same time.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sometimes I find it difficult to learn the terminology with some subjects.  Not that I can't learn it, but that takes a different kind of effort than learning the concept of something.  And until I learn it, I do get hung up on connecting the two.  Although over time what used to seem arbitrary to me appears less arbitrary.  Maybe because my vocabulary in general has gotten better.

 

 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

Sometimes I find it difficult to learn the terminology with some subjects. Not that I can't learn it, but that takes a different kind of effort than learning the concept of something.

There are no pegs, daily association to make learning the terminology stick in our brains. I had childhood asthma and huge co-ordination problems. I learn terminology for human anatomy and for drugs from the too many urgent care visits as a kid, not all with me as patient (my nephews have their incidents too and one nephew tends to nose bleed). Less vocabulary for me to pick up when I finally did high school biology in school :)

[Dicentra]

Runningmom,

I think the issue here is exactly one of semantics.

 

People have different definitions of "teaching" and "outsourcing".

I tried to state precisely what I mean when I use this terms, and mathnerd is doing the same.

I don't think there actually is any disagreement - we are just using different terminology.

 

 

Right now for my 10th grader, I outsource music, math, mandarin. Co-learn physics, chemistry, and philosophy.  And for English I teach writing and facilitate literature study. Wow, that sounds so official given how chaotic my homeschool feels some days.  :tongue_smilie:

 

A bit of an aside but reading this thread has got me thinking...

 

Do most homeschool parents consider themselves teachers?  As a homeschool parent, do you (the general "you") self-identify as a teacher?  I guess I'm trying to determine how others sort out the semantics.  When I say "teacher", I'm not asking folks whether they see themselves as equivalent-to or the-same-as public school teachers but whether or not they would self-identify as a "teacher" based on the dictionary definition of "teach":

teach

 (tÄ“ch)

v. taught (tôt), teach·ing, teach·es

v.tr.

1. To impart knowledge or skill to: teaches children.

2. To provide knowledge of; instruct in: teaches French.

3. To condition to a certain action or frame of mind: teaching youngsters to be self-reliant.

4. To cause to learn by example or experience: an accident that taught me a valuable lesson.

5. To advocate or preach: teaches racial and religious tolerance.

6. To carry on instruction on a regular basis in: taught high school for many years.

v.intr.

To give instruction, especially as an occupation.

 

Compare to the definition of "facilitate":

fa•cil•i•tate (fəˈsɪl ɪˌteɪt)

 

v.t. -tat•ed, -tat•ing.

1. to make easier or less difficult; help forward: Careful planning facilitates any kind of work.

2. to assist the progress of (a person).

 

Just curious. :)

 

ETA:  I think, since we're on the ALB, that most of the kids discussed here are well able to learn by having a facilitator, as opposed to having a teacher.  I wonder if that holds true for neurotypical kids.  My experience as a public school high school teacher would tell me "no".  Out of a typical high school chemistry class of 30, maybe 5 could self-study the material and only require a facilitator.  25 out of the 30 require teaching, not facilitating.  In order to be an effective facilitator, I could certainly be either a few days ahead of the student or co-learning with the student or even not familiar with the subject at all as long as I had the ability to find other resources that could fill the gap.  To be an effective teacher, I need to know that subject matter.  To be a really great teacher, I need to know material in that topic that is well above and beyond the level that I am teaching.  But all of that is based on my own understanding of the difference between "teach" and "facilitate".

 

ETA again:  :)  When I say that 25 out of 30 require teaching and not facilitating, I'm basing that on my experiences in the classroom and not on what I think those kids COULD do if they were motivated to learn. :)  If a neurotypical student is motivated to learn a subject, they can handle more facilitating and less teaching.  Based on my own classroom experience, the neurotypical kids will still requiring more teaching overall than AL kids would require, though.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Dicentra

[SparklyUnicorn]

There are no pegs, daily association to make learning the terminology stick in our brains. I had childhood asthma and huge co-ordination problems. I learn terminology for human anatomy and for drugs from the too many urgent care visits as a kid, not all with me as patient (my nephews have their incidents too and one nephew tends to nose bleed). Less vocabulary for me to pick up when I finally did high school biology in school :)

 

Yeah.  You know it just occurred to me that I also have a hard time remembering names.  I can watch a movie or read a novel and tell you all the details, but just don't ask me who anyone was named.  When I have to know this, I only write down the names if I'm taking notes or whatever because that's the thing I need to "study". 

[quark]

Fun to think about Connie!

 

I see myself doing some of 3. and 4. in teach and 1. and 2. in facilitate.

 

Might also depend on ages we are teaching. Even then, I don't think I really taught DS a lot of things. I did a lot of co-learning and facilitating from the time he was young too. And of course the day-to-day role modelling of good habits. Lately, I've had to do a lot of role modelling for street smarts due to the unique position he is in wanting to go to full time college earlier. He has a lot of smarts but not enough street smarts (IMHO) and I'm finding as many opportunities as possible to show him that it's not very hard to do.

 

A bit of an aside but reading this thread has got me thinking...

 

Do most homeschool parents consider themselves teachers?  As a homeschool parent, do you (the general "you") self-identify as a teacher?  I guess I'm trying to determine how others sort out the semantics.  When I say "teacher", I'm not asking folks whether they see themselves as equivalent-to or the-same-as public school teachers but whether or not they would self-identify as a "teacher" based on the dictionary definition of "teach":

teach

 (tÄ“ch)

v. taught (tôt), teach·ing, teach·es

v.tr.

1. To impart knowledge or skill to: teaches children.

2. To provide knowledge of; instruct in: teaches French.

3. To condition to a certain action or frame of mind: teaching youngsters to be self-reliant.

4. To cause to learn by example or experience: an accident that taught me a valuable lesson.

5. To advocate or preach: teaches racial and religious tolerance.

6. To carry on instruction on a regular basis in: taught high school for many years.

v.intr.

To give instruction, especially as an occupation.

 

Compare to the definition of "facilitate":

fa•cil•i•tate (fəˈsɪl ɪˌteɪt)

v.t. -tat•ed, -tat•ing.

1. to make easier or less difficult; help forward: Careful planning facilitates any kind of work.

2. to assist the progress of (a person).

 

Just curious. :)

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by quark

[Arcadia]

As a homeschool parent, do you (the general "you") self-identify as a teacher?

(tēch)

v. taught (tôt), teach·ing, teach·es

v.tr.

1. To impart knowledge or skill to: teaches children.

2. To provide knowledge of; instruct in: teaches French.

3. To condition to a certain action or frame of mind: teaching youngsters to be self-reliant.

 

Compare to the definition of "facilitate":

 

fa•cil•i•tate(fəˈsɪl ɪˌteɪt)

 

v.t. -tat•ed, -tat•ing.

1. to make easier or less difficult; help forward: Careful planning facilitates any kind of work.

2. to assist the progress of (a person).

I identify as a parent facilitator and maybe advocator.

 

However based on the dictionary definition you quoted,

 

(1) I would have taught my kids swimming, sewing and playing the piano to a certain extent

(2) I would have instruct my kids in Chinese eventhough we did not use a curriculum

(3) hubby and I gave our kids lots of practice in independent grocery shopping with cash, taking the public transport with stored value (prepaid) cards, cooking simple dishes, run the laundry and other life skills as the opportunity arise.

 

(4) and (5) would be under parenting in our families

 

(6) my dad is a credential retired teacher. A few cousins are private tutors. Neither hubby nor I tutor as a job.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Arcadia

[regentrude]

 

ETA:  I think, since we're on the ALB, that most of the kids discussed here are well able to learn by having a facilitator, as opposed to having a teacher.  I wonder if that holds true for neurotypical kids.  My experience as a public school high school teacher would tell me "no".  Out of a typical high school chemistry class of 30, maybe 5 could self-study the material and only require a facilitator.  25 out of the 30 require teaching, not facilitating.  In order to be an effective facilitator, I could certainly be either a few days ahead of the student or co-learning with the student or even not familiar with the subject at all as long as I had the ability to find other resources that could fill the gap.  To be an effective teacher, I need to know that subject matter.  To be a really great teacher, I need to know material in that topic that is well above and beyond the level that I am teaching.  But all of that is based on my own understanding of the difference between "teach" and "facilitate".

 

ETA again:  :)  When I say that 25 out of 30 require teaching and not facilitating, I'm basing that on my experiences in the classroom and not on what I think those kids COULD do if they were motivated to learn. :)  If a neurotypical student is motivated to learn a subject, they can handle more facilitating and less teaching.  Based on my own classroom experience, the neurotypical kids will still requiring more teaching overall than AL kids would require, though.

 

You raise an interesting point. I do not teach high school, but college, and I find it very remarkable how few students can efficiently learn in a facilitation model and how many require direct instruction and, more importantly, micromanagement (detailed assignments, frequent deadlines, penalties for not doing the work). I do not know whether it has to do with neurotypical vs gifted or rather with unmotivated vs motivated which is a different quality.

The motivated students read the sections in the textbook that I have selected as relevant for that day's lecture, take notes, go over the lecture notes and would work through the problems even if there were no penalty for not doing so. They may get stumped on a problem and actively seek out help. So, I do get to teach them, i.e. sit down one -on-one with them and clear up a misconception, lead them to discover the correct approach by Socratic questioning, answer questions. They are not necessarily smarter than the others, but choose to apply their general resourcefulness to their studies.

The unmotivated students have to be pulled and prodded. They refuse to read the book, and rewarding them with points for doing so only gets a small fraction to do this necessary but un-fun work. They work the problems only because they fear homework is collected. They do not actively seek out help; if they do, they resist Socratic questioning and expect to be handed a solution without having to struggle.

 

Just thinking out loud here. I have seen resourceful, motivated students who were not gifted, but wanted to learn and did everything necessary to succeed. And I have seen very smart students who sabotaged themselves by blowing off assignments, not attending class and barely scraping by with a passing grade or failing altogether because they could not get their act together. They were unteachable, because they did not let me teach them.

 

So, not sure if it is really gifted vs NT, or whether there are other qualities at play. Maybe this is more an issue of character than of IQ.

 

ETA: Which raises the question what part of teaching should be managing the student's lack of motivation.

Ideally, I would want to impart my knowledge, explain the material the best way I can think of, design example problems that illustrate precisely the new aspect we are covering, design homework assignments that practice the new concepts and build on each other in progressive difficulty, spend hours in the learning center working directly with students on problem solving, create meaningful assessments that really test whether the student has mastered the material.

I would prefer not to: give lecture quizzes to force students to attend, grade homework (I would prefer to make detailed solutions available so they can all check their work), answer emails that ask lazy questions that have been comprehensively answered in the syllabus and on the course website, create artificial deadlines, watch to prevent cheating, create spreadsheets that tally up the numerous points we give to get them to do the work they should be doing... that is not "teaching", but comprises a large part of a teacher's work.

Edited September 16, 2016 by regentrude

[Dicentra]

You raise an interesting point. I do not teach high school, but college, and I find it very remarkable how few students can efficiently learn in a facilitation model and how many require direct instruction and, more importantly, micromanagement (detailed assignments, frequent deadlines, penalties for not doing the work). I do not know whether it has to do with neurotypical vs gifted or rather with unmotivated vs motivated which is a different quality.

The motivated students read the sections in the textbook that I have selected as relevant for that day's lecture, take notes, go over the lecture notes and would work through the problems even if there were no penalty for not doing so. They may get stumped on a problem and actively seek out help. So, I do get to teach them, i.e. sit down one -on-one with them and clear up a misconception, lead them to discover the correct approach by Socratic questioning, answer questions. They are not necessarily smarter than the others, but choose to apply their general resourcefulness to their studies.

The unmotivated students have to be pulled and prodded. They refuse to read the book, and rewarding them with points for doing so only gets a small fraction to do this necessary but un-fun work. They work the problems only because they fear homework is collected. They do not actively seek out help; if they do, they resist Socratic questioning and expect to be handed a solution without having to struggle.

 

Just thinking out loud here. I have seen resourceful, motivated students who were not gifted, but wanted to learn and did everything necessary to succeed. And I have seen very smart students who sabotaged themselves by blowing off assignments, not attending class and barely scraping by with a passing grade or failing altogether because they could not get their act together. They were unteachable, because they did not let me teach them.

 

So, not sure if it is really gifted vs NT, or whether there are other qualities at play. Maybe this is more an issue of character than of IQ.

 

ETA: Which raises the question what part of teaching should be managing the student's lack of motivation.

Ideally, I would want to impart my knowledge, explain the material the best way I can think of, design example problems that illustrate precisely the new aspect we are covering, design homework assignments that practice the new concepts and build on each other in progressive difficulty, spend hours in the learning center working directly with students on problem solving, create meaningful assessments that really test whether the student has mastered the material.

I would prefer not to: give lecture quizzes to force students to attend, grade homework (I would prefer to make detailed solutions available so they can all check their work), answer emails that ask lazy questions that have been comprehensively answered in the syllabus and on the course website, create artificial deadlines, watch to prevent cheating, create spreadsheets that tally up the numerous points we give to get them to do the work they should be doing... that is not "teaching", but comprises a large part of a teacher's work.

 

Definitely agree, regentrude, about the issues of giftedness vs. motivation.  That's why I had added my ETA segments above. :)  When the two traits (giftedness and motivation) come together, it's a beautiful thing to see. :)

 

For your ETA segment - good heavens, YES. :)  A class full of motivated students is like a gift from the powers-that-be. :)

[regentrude]

For your ETA segment - good heavens, YES. :)  A class full of motivated students is like a gift from the powers-that-be. :)

 

let's dream :)

[Guest]

In addition to NT or not, and basic personality, I think honestly that some people just get accustomed to being told what to think, what to say, and what to do.

[Arcadia]

In addition to NT or not, and basic personality, I think honestly that some people just get accustomed to being told what to think, what to say, and what to do.

I do think social promotion and state testing unintentionally add to that. My kids were taught key words in math for state testing prep by their public charter teacher. That part was like the first 10mins out of every 1hr lesson so not a lot of time but it does encourage complacency.

 

Also my kid was trying out a Barron Math subject test prep book's model test just to see what he forgot. He did not know the least square regression formula yet so he couldn't answer one question. The test prep book answer was use your calculator's inbuilt regression function to compute.

[Dmmetler]

I've been thinking more about this, and one reason why I use a variety of sources rather than outsourcing to a single provider is simply that I'm not sure I've ever seen an outside class that works as well for DD as a piecemeal approach. That even applies to things like AOPS-because DD sometimes needs more time, more repetition, or a different explanation. Sometimes she needs every problem in the book and more besides. Sometimes, she can honestly jump to the challengers very quickly and not find it challenging. She finds the formal of Alumcus annoying, but honestly likes some of the videos. Stuff like that.

 

My experience is that a majority of outsourcing providers intended to be complete have similar issues. It's not that it's a poor class-but it is not the fit for my DD that I want from homeschooling, and that I get from, say, having a dozen different math books, three Great Courses videos, and bookmarks to AOPS, Khan Academy, a couple of Coursera and EdX archived courses, and a few playlists on Youtube.

 

I don't consider it outsourcing because to me, that's not handing it over to someone else. If using materials, including audio, video, and print means that you are no longer teaching, I'm not sure I ever "taught" in the couple of decades I've been paid to do exactly that. I consider picking and choosing material to be a big part of teaching any subject at any level I've taught-from preschool to college. The materials differ if I'm structuring a classroom for children to learn through play vs if I'm teaching college students music theory, but it all starts with sitting down and figuring out what the goals of the class are, and utilizing the materials at my disposal to get to that point. Even if I can reinvent the wheel, it's not time effective for me to create an entirely new textbook and support materials from scratch-so I pick from the best, supplement where needed, and change as appropriate. A big part of my professional knowledge and expertise on the fields that I am honestly considered a professional in is exactly that-being able to judge what is good, bad, and indifferent for a specific student or group of students at a time.

 

What's more, as DD gets older, I'm realizing that a big part of what I'm teaching her is exactly that-what resources are good and which aren't, how to judge them, how to take the parts that are useful to you and leave the rest behind, and so on. And, as a result, she is able to be very autodidactic.

[quark]

What's more, as DD gets older, I'm realizing that a big part of what I'm teaching her is exactly that-what resources are good and which aren't, how to judge them, how to take the parts that are useful to you and leave the rest behind, and so on. And, as a result, she is able to be very autodidactic.

 

Like Ruth said, it's about really leading (facilitating?) a child towards how best to learn right?

 

Especially in this age where there are so many sources of information, I want kiddo to be able to discern not only how to learn but also, to the extent that is realistically possible, additional clues such as whether translator X is more respected than translator Y and why (for re-tellings/ translated lit for example) and to know that while Wikipedia is great for quick information, why he should also always cross check the sources or cross check the sources' information against other sources. Not to be crazily uncompromising but to be aware and appreciative that these differences exist and to know that even deeper layers of information are available to him. It's not only the end product as we like to say on these boards but also the process.

 

I'm very happy that after growing very suspicious of the very cheap edition of Ulysses that we have at home (bought on impulse), he researched a few more editions by himself and then cross-checked with his lit professor for more recommendations. It isn't even an assigned book, it's just something he wants to read for pleasure. This was one of the types of self-driven efforts I have always wanted him to have, to care enough about what he is reading and learning, to want it to be the highest quality he can find/ afford. The edition he has decided to use birthday money on is not the most expensive either (he always looks for used copies first). I hope this is a foundation he will continue to build on. To truly care about his learning.

 

How well did I know about all this when we started co-learning/ facilitating literature? I knew some but not as much as I know now after learning and discovering new things with him. Of course, I had heard of Joyce and Ulysses. But to be honest, *I* haven't read the book yet! But he still gained the tools to discover such authors on his own. He didn't let me color his opinions either. I read Dubliners (assigned book) before he did and was very impressed by Joyce afterwards. DS didn't like the book after reading it not once but twice. Then he tried Ulysses (unassigned) and everything changed. He still doesn't love Joyce but now respects him very much. So in another way, he also learned to keep an open mind. To not immediately reject an author forever just because the first two impressions were negative.

[8filltheheart]

I read the first page and a half and skimmed the rest. I agree that this thread has multiple people reading posts with different interpretations. I most definitely read some of them as suggesting that it is inferior to have your child complete a subject at home if you are not familiar with the material. (And I disagree.)

 

In terms of defining outsourcing, to be 100% clear of my use of the word, if I don't list it on their transcript as being taught by another institution or directly paid tutor, no, it is not outsourced. I don't consider MOOCs, TC lectures, etc as outsourcing. Those are simply teaching resources. I consider outsourced classes to be when a live human being directly interacts with my student and in turn provides direct evaluation of work completed. If I am still the one doing the evaluations, that is a homeschooled class and I am the teacher according to their transcript.

 

With that said, I outsource far fewer classes than I directly am responsible for evaluating and assigning grades. I relearned alg 1 right alongside my oldest. (And I guess it must be somehow unbelievable that that inferior approach equipped him to become a chemE.) My kids are far more advanced in many subjects than I am. I learn many right along with them and sometimes they actually teach me.

 

I think the absolute biggest problem with this discussion is that it is a conversation that equates learning with a traditional school approach--teacher passes on information to student. My homeschool does not resemble traditional school teaching methodologies at all. I don't homeschool to replicate school at home. It is something completely different. There is not a one-to-one comparison.

 

For example, my dd learned French by systematically immersing herself in more and more complex language resources. She studied grammar. She watched children's movies in French that she already knew in English. She read children's stories in French that she already knew in English. She progressed to more complex storylines. Moved on to unfamiliar works. Now she watches all her news in French and can read adult novels. She just started working with a tutor for the very first time last yr. Her tutor has really helped her hone her conversational skills and French compositions. But, she managed to reach an incredibly high level through completely untraditional methods.

 

Inferior? According to what standard? A classroom French teacher's? Unless most kids enter college as a freshman and skip to 300 level classes, that argument doesn't work. We just got home from a college visit and the French dept head told dd that she would recommend skipping their first 2 300 level courses bc her fluency is beyond what the students in those classes are capable of and that their next 300 level sequence is a closer match to her abilities.

 

And that is just one example. My kids have done the same thing in multiple subjects. We don't approach any single subject in any specific way for all of my kids. We do different things for different kids. Some need more direction; some need lots of discussion; some need to immerse themselves in great resources and just come up for air. All of that is homeschooling. I don't consider any of that outsourcing.

 

Now that my dd is taking French with a tutor: that is outsourced. My kids DEing: that is outsourced. My finding resources, creating courses, grading their work: that is what I have done for 23 yrs. If that isn't being the homeschooling teacher, I'm not sure what else it is. Teacher/facilitator, for our homeschool, I think the terminology is an issue bc what is occurring is something unrelated what occurs in most classrooms bc this is our way of life. It is not a school.

 

What we do is different. And I am very thankful that it is, bc honestly, I know what we do is definitely not inferior. My adult children's academic successes beyond high school validate that whatever it is that we do, it works. :)

 

Fwiw, I am absolutely not opposed to outsourcing courses for my kids. We do so when it becomes obvious that the other options are inferior. But, again, that has not been the case for I would guess about 80%+ of high school level courses. (Not to be confused with courses taken during high school. Some college equivalent courses have definitely been better taken elsewhere.) The only high school level courses I have felt were 100% better outsourced are Russian and some of the math classes my ds took via AoPS and a tutor. Ironically, at one college dept visit, a French professor told my dd to not DE bc what she was doing at home was superior to what she would be doing in a classroom. ;)

 

ETA: I had a chuckle after I posted bc I started to think about our local ps. They use almost exclusive computer generated teaching where they sit with their laptops and watch videos and do the problems provided by the program. I can just see it now: ps high school transcript lists all courses as outsourced out of the high school. ;)

Edited September 17, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[SarahW]

I wonder: can one really separate "content" vs "skill" subjects?

Clearly, writing and math are skill subjects.

Physics is also a skill subject because the student will not memorize facts, but acquire skills in problem solving. That's what physics is all about - applying physics principles to solve problems and deriving relationships.

Chemistry is similar; while there is some memorization, there is definitely a problem solving skill, in addition to laboratory skills.

Any historian will bristle at the notion that history is only about content and point out that thinking from a historical perspective, identifying historical trends and relationships etc are definitely skills.

 

So, I think at the high school (or maybe college?) level, most subjects transition from sole "content" to a "skill" subject.

 

Thank you!

 

Yes, totally yes. I get so frustrated when people talk about studying history as if it is just about content. Yes, learning names and dates is "doing history" just like learning about the states of matter is "doing physics" or learning long division is "doing math." History content is just a very low level step in the actual field of study.

 

It drives me a bit crazy that so many people are unaware of this. It drives me crazier that so many people publishing history curriculums seem to be so unaware of this.  :huh:

 

 

Anyways, to the subject at hand. I think a content expert could/would teach better than someone who is trying to keep up with the student. When CP has a "hmmm, how does that work?" question about something in the Latin declension system, I can draw upon my background knowledge to provide an answer (which would not appear in the textbook, and if we had to go look it up may only appear in a book on Latin linguistics). Likewise, when DH does Faith&Life with him, he is able to unpack the chapter text with additional examples or analogies, and provide additional information, which allows us to have a high level of discussion about the text. To me, that is teaching. And when it happens it is very good.

 

On the other hand, I am pretty much learning math along with CP. I may have passed College Algebra, but there's stuff in BA that leaves me saying, Huh? But I chose BA because it is the best curriculum for him, so we struggle through together. There's nothing really wrong with that - he's learning more from this than if he was stuck only learning math which I am able to teach him (which wouldn't be much...). But I don't think it is the best. Just today we were doing some factoring and he started playing around with putting factors in exponent form. Fine, okay, this is why BA takes us forever, but let's have fun. Then he started blabbing about 2^30 and I was like, "hmmm....I don't think that's right???" and eventually after he scratched out some more numbers he decided that 2^30 couldn't be right either. Okay. But I was lost as to what he was doing and what he was trying to do with it. I feel like if he was sitting with a mathematician instead he could have gotten so much more out of his side tangent. But there's no one like that I can get to sit and do BA with him, the best person around is me, unfortunately. So we make do. In the end I think he'll end up okay, even despite me, but it still isn't optimal.

[Donna]

I think the absolute biggest problem with this discussion is that it is a conversation that equates learning with a traditional school approach--teacher passes on information to student. My homeschool does not resemble traditional school teaching methodologies at all. I don't homeschool to replicate school at home. It is something completely different. There is not a one-to-one comparison.

 

YES! This is exactly what I was thinking as I read through this discussion.

 

I do not have expertise in every subject dd is interested in learning. I have over the years become an "expert" in my own dd, how she learns, how to facilitate her learning, and how to teach her how to learn. I feel I am able to give her an education tailored to her needs, interests, and learning style. 

For subjects I do not feel particularly skilled in teaching, I am able to find resources and/or mentors or point her in the right direction and allow her to find those things for herself. I enjoy re-learning and learning new material right alongside her.