A question if you put your child(ren) in Sunday School... The letter post #63

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If non-Christian parents want to drop off their children, if their children are interested, that is great! Do not get me wrong. I would love to see the un-churched children want to come to Sunday School. I pray for this! But when parents who profess to be members of the body of believers and want all the "benefits" of belonging to a church without thinking about how they can serve the Lord just want an hour of free child care? (In most churches the majority of drive-by-Sunday-Schoolings are just that, not the un-churched bringing their children) It is wonderful the kids are there, but if you want to be considered a member of a church and a Christian? Unless you work and cannot get off, you should bring your children to church and attend service. Otherwise, what kind of message is being sent to your children? "Yes kids, it is important to go to Sunday School, but it is not important to live out your faith as an adult. No, Sunday worship is not as important as going boating on the river."

 

The commitment level among millennials and younger is very very low. Not just in the church but across the board. Ask the veterans in the Americal Legion. Ask the Lions Club. Ask summer camps who their biggest supporters are. The sense of duty is fading, and behind is being left the cafeteria-style Christians who take what they feel like but do not get dug in. Most churches are being held together by an aging, loyal, hardworking core who love the Lord and care about spreading the Gospel of Jesus. These workers are getting tired and there is no one to step up and take over. And it is no wonder, if those who profess to know

Christ do not raise their children to sacrificialy give, not only their tithes, but their time and talents as well (including giving up a nice quiet Sunday morning for the chaoticness of going to church with your children). I mean, seriously. I have three young children, the youngest of which is very much a challenge to handle in church. Would I rather sleep in or take the kids to the park instead of wrestling my DD1.5 for an hour, getting sweaty and covered in fruit snacks and Cheerios? OF COURSE! Would I rather sit down with the adults after church and talk than make sure the Sunday School teachers have all they need and that the kids are making their way from music to their classrooms? Would I rather not have to collect their offerings and deal with the troublesome children? OF COURSE! But God called me to serve that year and I wanted to make sure those kids would be getting a good education, since that one hour was all that 95% of those kids got in Christian education all week. Christ didn't say, "hey, that is cool if you don't like what I am saying. Just take what you want from it, find your own truth. No, you don't need to give up everything to follow me, do what feels right to you for your own faith journey." Christ said to deny ourselves and follow Him. If Christian parents want to raise kids who truly know Christ, they can't just drop off their kid for education and go home. They need to be there actively participating with their children. That is one of the biggest frustration of Sunday School superintendents and teachers....most "Christian" parents just don't care. That was the situation I was deploring.

This doesn't describe the millennial generation of my church and family at all. Most of these people work harder than my generation did, in the church and out of it, and their lives are definitely far more complicated than mine was 20 years ago. But if people do drop off their kids at Sunday school, whatever they choose to do with themselves for that hour, obviously they care. Is it not far easier NOT to take the kids to church? Since they did take them, obviously they care. They take them to public school without becoming teachers there, either. Does that mean they don't care about education?

 

If you're going to put a requirement on parents to be involved in the work of this institution, "Sunday school," you'll have to find Sunday schools in the Bible in the first place. (Hint: you won't.) If the church wants to build a school for religious education, let the church tell the parents the rules and conditions for enrolling their children. Fine. That's fair. Require parental participation. Charge tuition. Make them bring animal crackers and apple juice. Whatever. But don't call the parents ungodly or disinterested over anything they do (or don't do) for the Sunday school that Jesus and His apostles never prescribed. Run it how you like but don't be a Pharisee who makes new rules and judges everybody's holiness by his own new rules.

 

My church's Sunday school is 100% volunteer led, with no coercion and no expectation that each family contribute manpower just because their kids are in class. We do the opposite -- most of the teachers have older children. They remember how tiring it is to take a family of littles to church, so they do the nursery care and class teaching so Mom and Dad can go to adult Bible study and worship, knowing their little ones are safe and learning. And anyone in the community may drop kids off without judgment. Their kids are welcomed, notices are sent home about what the dc learned, friendly invitations are sent regarding upcoming family events at church, etc. Our Sunday school is a ministry to the young families of the church, and an outreach to the community. We don't have this crippling bitterness of unmet expectations, because we dropped the expectations. We have a joyful and thriving ministry that is about serving children and their families. I'm no longer willing to be part of a church that does Sunday school any other way.

[Amy M]

For me the problem really is, we feel blindsided by the whole issue. We have had our son in Sunday School since he was a bit over 3. He was actually the same age my younger son is now, when we started going to this church. At one point right before I started the process to get pregnant with my younger son, I was asked if I wanted to teach Sunday School. I declined telling them that I was planning on getting pregnant and I wasn't sure how long I could do Sunday School once I got pregnant. Aside from that one encounter, we had NO idea that there was even a need for a change in Sunday School. One could argue that by them asking me, that wasn't even a need for anything other then more volunteers. 

 

If they would have told us that they wanted to have a meeting to discuss issues with Sunday School, we would have went. If they gave us any indication that there were issues with Sunday School, we would have called for a meeting to take place. However no discussion took place. It is possible that there was discussion of this in VBS planning meetings. However VBS this year was scheduled to start the DAY my baby turned 3. 3 is the minimum age for VBS. Needless to say I didn't think he was ready and didn't plan to put him in VBS so I didn't go to the planning meetings as I didn't want to juggle this and help out with VBS. 

 

We were told when we converted to this denomination from what we were, that they were a "bottom up" organization. To me a "bottom up" organization would imply that if the leadership of the church saw an issue, they would bring it to a meeting to address such topics. Who knows, maybe someone in the congregation would have come up with a better solution. More minds, often result in better outcomes when problems arise. The end result could have also been the same. There is a chance that some people wouldn't have come to the meeting. However, if there was one, at least no one could say that they didn't know about it, provided it was advertised for a few weeks prior, like most meetings are. 

 

I think that is where one of my big rubs are. I feel like they saw a broken system and assumed that the rest of us did to. 

 

 

:glare: That does sound frustrating. I'm thinking that you and/or your husband should see if you can arrange a time to speak with the elders or elder in charge of this decision to ask them your questions and share your concerns. Maybe they'd listen and change the idea, or at the least, apologize for trying to get more bottom-up results (like, family-led spiritual training) through top-down methods.

[Ellie]

If non-Christian parents want to drop off their children, if their children are interested, that is great! Do not get me wrong. I would love to see the un-churched children want to come to Sunday School. I pray for this! But when parents who profess to be members of the body of believers and want all the "benefits" of belonging to a church without thinking about how they can serve the Lord just want an hour of free child care? (In most churches the majority of drive-by-Sunday-Schoolings are just that, not the un-churched bringing their children) It is wonderful the kids are there, but if you want to be considered a member of a church and a Christian? Unless you work and cannot get off, you should bring your children to church and attend service. Otherwise, what kind of message is being sent to your children? "Yes kids, it is important to go to Sunday School, but it is not important to live out your faith as an adult. No, Sunday worship is not as important as going boating on the river."

 

The commitment level among millennials and younger is very very low. Not just in the church but across the board. Ask the veterans in the Americal Legion. Ask the Lions Club. Ask summer camps who their biggest supporters are. The sense of duty is fading, and behind is being left the cafeteria-style Christians who take what they feel like but do not get dug in. Most churches are being held together by an aging, loyal, hardworking core who love the Lord and care about spreading the Gospel of Jesus. These workers are getting tired and there is no one to step up and take over. And it is no wonder, if those who profess to know

Christ do not raise their children to sacrificialy give, not only their tithes, but their time and talents as well (including giving up a nice quiet Sunday morning for the chaoticness of going to church with your children). I mean, seriously. I have three young children, the youngest of which is very much a challenge to handle in church. Would I rather sleep in or take the kids to the park instead of wrestling my DD1.5 for an hour, getting sweaty and covered in fruit snacks and Cheerios? OF COURSE! Would I rather sit down with the adults after church and talk than make sure the Sunday School teachers have all they need and that the kids are making their way from music to their classrooms? Would I rather not have to collect their offerings and deal with the troublesome children? OF COURSE! But God called me to serve that year and I wanted to make sure those kids would be getting a good education, since that one hour was all that 95% of those kids got in Christian education all week. Christ didn't say, "hey, that is cool if you don't like what I am saying. Just take what you want from it, find your own truth. No, you don't need to give up everything to follow me, do what feels right to you for your own faith journey." Christ said to deny ourselves and follow Him. If Christian parents want to raise kids who truly know Christ, they can't just drop off their kid for education and go home. They need to be there actively participating with their children. That is one of the biggest frustration of Sunday School superintendents and teachers....most "Christian" parents just don't care. That was the situation I was deploring.

 

Huh.

 

I try to avoid judging a whole group of people just because of their age. I also try to avoid blanket statements such as "the sense of duty is fading"  or "most 'Christian' parents just don't care."

 

I have been actively involved in church life since 1974, and I can tell you that there has *always* been a problem with finding volunteers. Millennials did not invent it.

 

Possibly the problem is that those in charge want more out of people than people really need or want, and so there's push-back by the people who are being put upon to do the work for things they don't see the need for. Conversely, some people truly don't know that there's a need until it affects them personally. If there aren't enough people to teach Sunday school, then don't do Sunday school. If the third grade Sunday school teacher doesn't show up, then send the third-graders in to sit with their parents. If there are not enough workers in the nursery, don't accept more children until someone volunteers. And if you're going to have those things, then train your teachers and workers well, and make sure they have good materials to work with; one of my frustrations as a Sunday school teacher and nursery coordinator is the lack of training, and of good materials to teach from.

 

I was also frustrated by a Sunday school super who scheduled volunteers for one Sunday a month. I spent almost as much time telling them what to do as I spent telling the children what to do. I finally told him not to do that. People either had to give me a whole month or nothing at all, and even that was iffy.

 

FTR, I disagree that people need to "be there actively participating with their children."  In fact, I kind of disagree with your whole concept of Sunday school and parental involvement. That does not mean that I am not denying myself and following him. And you don't know (1) that the parents who drop off their children are actually Christians, or (2) what might be happening in their homes that they need to drop off the children instead of staying with them. 

[3 ladybugs]

Okay we are home. 

 

It wasn't that bad. I DO NOT think that my DH needs to be there every week. Unless this was an unusual week, I think just having one parent there would be fine. Today they sang songs, then we decorated a bag that will be our "Sunday School Bag" this was 1 per family. In it we have a "Sunday School Folder" that was supplied, that will put any hand outs that they give us. They want us to come next week (in our case in 2 weeks) with a bible in the bag. They give us a bible verse that we are to encourage the children to memorize. That is fine by me. I think that would be good for my older son. If my younger son wants to join in, he is welcome, but I imagine they will give him credit if he memorizes ANY verse. He is memorizing a verse as part of his curriculum that is for the whole month. We also got a nice laminated tri-folded paper that talks about how to do home prayers and study. We didn't know any of the traditional meal time prayers so it was nice that that was included. Next week we are suppose to get a book that will help with memory work I believe. Hopefully we can get it when we come back. 

 

What I took away from the study: It is clear that they need more help to do what they want to do. Seeing how my sons can be in the same class (for now, they didn't separate the 2-3 preschoolers from the Elementary kids) I don't see the need for my DH to continue to go. It was really too much for us both to be there, though today it was a bit nice as my youngest didn't get enough sleep and he is a bit of a terror. I will not likely learn that much with my children but seeing how I am a "newbie" of sorts, I will hopefully learn something. My older son will be encouraged to learn bible verses and in exchange of that, he will get charms (for lack of a better term) that he will put on a ring on the bag to show how good he was doing. That seems good. There is also a home worksheet that was provided that encourages families to get their children to look up different bible verses and copy them. So for my son's age (8) this is good as he needs more researching skills. There were 4 verses for him to look up and we do 4 day a week school weeks so that pairs well. 

 

I hope that they will develop things that my preschooler can do with time. Today he could draw a bit, but that was it. I actually played the song that teaches him his monthly bible verse for a bit today to keep him engaged in what we were doing. 

[SKL]

Today they installed the year's Christian Education volunteers in our church.  The list had about 30 names.  These are to support the following:

• Nursery - multiple church / SS times.
• Preschool Sunday School.
• K-4th Sunday School (all 1 class).
• 5th-6th Sunday School.
• 7th-8th Confirmation Class.
• Children's Church during 2 weekly church services.
• Probably some support, and special helpers for the Christmas show and such.  Maybe a floater in case of illness.
• Adults - they do various classes with rotating teachers.  Right now there is only 1 class, plus the basic bible class that the pastor teaches for prospective new members.

There are probably some paid positions as well.

 

So it looks like they have at least 2 volunteers for each role at all times.  If someone gets sick or whatever, it should be easy to get someone else to fill in.

 

The volunteers are members who want to be active and have a voice regarding how things go at the church.

 

Most folks are content to attend church, bring their kids, engage in fellowship, and make whatever donation they feel comfortable making.  I really don't think this is a problem.  It's pretty much the way it has always been in all the churches I've ever attended.

 

Members get listed as greeter, usher, etc. on a weekly basis.  Since I'm not a member, I am exempt from that too.  :)  Sorry about that.  :P

[bolt.]

If non-Christian parents want to drop off their children, if their children are interested, that is great! Do not get me wrong. I would love to see the un-churched children want to come to Sunday School. I pray for this! But when parents who profess to be members of the body of believers and want all the "benefits" of belonging to a church without thinking about how they can serve the Lord just want an hour of free child care? (In most churches the majority of drive-by-Sunday-Schoolings are just that, not the un-churched bringing their children) It is wonderful the kids are there, but if you want to be considered a member of a church and a Christian? Unless you work and cannot get off, you should bring your children to church and attend service. Otherwise, what kind of message is being sent to your children? "Yes kids, it is important to go to Sunday School, but it is not important to live out your faith as an adult. No, Sunday worship is not as important as going boating on the river."

 

The commitment level among millennials and younger is very very low. Not just in the church but across the board. Ask the veterans in the Americal Legion. Ask the Lions Club. Ask summer camps who their biggest supporters are. The sense of duty is fading, and behind is being left the cafeteria-style Christians who take what they feel like but do not get dug in. Most churches are being held together by an aging, loyal, hardworking core who love the Lord and care about spreading the Gospel of Jesus. These workers are getting tired and there is no one to step up and take over. And it is no wonder, if those who profess to know

Christ do not raise their children to sacrificialy give, not only their tithes, but their time and talents as well (including giving up a nice quiet Sunday morning for the chaoticness of going to church with your children). I mean, seriously. I have three young children, the youngest of which is very much a challenge to handle in church. Would I rather sleep in or take the kids to the park instead of wrestling my DD1.5 for an hour, getting sweaty and covered in fruit snacks and Cheerios? OF COURSE! Would I rather sit down with the adults after church and talk than make sure the Sunday School teachers have all they need and that the kids are making their way from music to their classrooms? Would I rather not have to collect their offerings and deal with the troublesome children? OF COURSE! But God called me to serve that year and I wanted to make sure those kids would be getting a good education, since that one hour was all that 95% of those kids got in Christian education all week. Christ didn't say, "hey, that is cool if you don't like what I am saying. Just take what you want from it, find your own truth. No, you don't need to give up everything to follow me, do what feels right to you for your own faith journey." Christ said to deny ourselves and follow Him. If Christian parents want to raise kids who truly know Christ, they can't just drop off their kid for education and go home. They need to be there actively participating with their children. That is one of the biggest frustration of Sunday School superintendents and teachers....most "Christian" parents just don't care. That was the situation I was deploring.

I really don't understand this attiude.

 

You seem to want people to believe you offer the ministry of life itself, in serving the word and the gospel to young souls, and walking with them as their faith growth walks alongside their childhood development.

 

But, for someone who appears to be involved in (the above) amazing life-giving ministry to children, you seem very fixated on the tangentially related issue; that while you and God work with children, by co-incidence, some parents have the opportunity to take-it-easy for an hour.

 

I imagine you occasionally take-it-easy for an hour (at least once in awhile, even if it isn't actually one whole hour, at least once per week) and yet you are (presumably) a functioning member of the body of Christ. Why do you assume that people who take their once-a-week hour of ease just-specifically while the Spirit of God is working wonders between their children and various volunteers... Why do you imagine that coincidence of timing tells you anything about their spiritual lives?

 

Making your kids available to the loving ministry of people who help them grow spiritually is not a "benefit" parents should earn. It's an action that takes place exclusively between the teacher/leader and the child. The only person truly benefitting is the child, and the only volunteers who are likely to be of any benefit to the children are the ones who care about what they are doing for the sake of the kids alone.

 

If your church simply offers Bible themed childcare, and anyone can do it... By all means require every parent to do their fair share. But there's no reason to call that sort of service a kids' ministry. That's just taking kids of their parents hands: a favour to the parents and nothing more.

[Bluegoat]

I don't understand this idea that people who use a ministry should be involved in that particular ministry.

 

There are kids in our ss whose parents do not volunteer to teach but do other things.  I presume that they feel that those other things are better served by their particular talents.  Not everyone is cut out to teach.  There are parents who would not have the temperament, and TBH many who do not know anything about doctrine or theology.

 

One of the reasons we have some division of tasks is so people can do what they are best at, or what fits with other commitments.

 

And some do nothing.  Perhaps they are lazy or not very aware that there is a need for people to contribute to the community - some people are.  Or it may be that have many demands on them in other areas that make it impossible.  Generally I don't consider myself to be in a position to say.

 

[ktgrok]

so strange. 

 

I've heard of whole family multi age Sunday school, and if that was what was happening, fine. But that isn't what is happening. They still have separate adult Sunday school, but the parents can't go? And the kids are still divided by age? So weird. 

 

Either do a family based thing, or do like some places do, where the first 20 minutes or whatever are for all ages, adults and kids. Then you break out for the rest of the time into age groups to explore the topic further at your level. So the adults go to the adult group, kids are broken into age groups, etc. 

 

Maybe you could mention that model to your church? It sounds like it would accomplish what they want to do, but work better in the practical sense. Adults need teaching on their level, and 3 year olds need something different than a 5th grader. 

[Emmalm]

Hey, not trying to offend anyone here! Trying to stick up for the hardworking education committees who are TRYING to do their best in an apathetic culture. They do this because they care about the children, not because they are trying to make your lives harder. It may not be perfect, in fact it never will be. It is impossible to please everyone. And I think a fault in Christian education for children today is catering to the lowest common denominator, like public schools often do, and as many churches are doing in Sunday School. But what do you do? It is not as easy to be in charge of Chrisitan Ed as it looks. So let's give them a bit of grace. And each other too. Hopefully you as parents are getting spiritually fed in service. That should be spiritual meat, not milk. I would love to have more adult Ed in our church, and it something we are working on, but the service is the most important part of Sunday. If you had to chose between worship and an hour of adult Ed, which would it be? Hopefully you don't have to chose, but if you did? If Sunday School does not work for you, just focus on teaching at home, as you already are. But please don't see the people in charge as enemies. They are in a very difficult position!

[Bluegoat]

Figuring out how to do substantial Christian ed programs for kids really is hard, no doubt about it.  My parish is one that has a significant number of people who really value serious education, including religious education, because of our demographics - many are academics in one area or another. 

 

But it is still difficult to get kids what they need, the time at Sunday school simply isn't enough, it is difficult to extend the day on Sunday very much because of younger siblings and such, and most kids and parents are so busy during the week.  Coordinating a group of kids and parents is like a miracle.

 

That is without talking about finding age-appropriate but substantial curricula, or the people with the right talents to teach it.

[Zinnia]

It sounds like you have separate Sunday School and church hours?  If so, I would probably attend with my kids and just see church as the major thing for me in this season.  

 

We have childrens' services (for K-6) and main services that run at the same time.  We call it "Sunday school" to our children, because we grew up in the church, and that is familiar.  But it really runs like a church service.  They have worship, preaching, then break out into some small group time by grade level.  The church part (specifically the preaching) is a little shorter than "big church" because our preacher is wordy.  That allows for the small group time.  

 

We have the expectation that we'll get small group studies in a different setting than Sunday morning for adults.  And most people do.  But even in the seasons when I don't, church is good, and I get a lot out of the main service.

[ktgrok]

I realized I gave a very opinionated answer, but in my parish adults don't go to Sunday school anyway, lol. Sunday school is for 2yr olds - kindergarten, and only a fraction of the parish kids even go. The rest stay with their parents in Mass. Starting in 1st grade they do their religious education on wednesday evenings, and attend Mass with their parents. Adult education is at various times during the week depending on what you are interested in. Various groups meet at different days/times. 

[kirstenhill]

Hey, not trying to offend anyone here! Trying to stick up for the hardworking education committees who are TRYING to do their best in an apathetic culture. They do this because they care about the children, not because they are trying to make your lives harder. It may not be perfect, in fact it never will be. It is impossible to please everyone. And I think a fault in Christian education for children today is catering to the lowest common denominator, like public schools often do, and as many churches are doing in Sunday School. But what do you do? It is not as easy to be in charge of Chrisitan Ed as it looks. So let's give them a bit of grace. And each other too. Hopefully you as parents are getting spiritually fed in service. That should be spiritual meat, not milk. I would love to have more adult Ed in our church, and it something we are working on, but the service is the most important part of Sunday. If you had to chose between worship and an hour of adult Ed, which would it be? Hopefully you don't have to chose, but if you did? If Sunday School does not work for you, just focus on teaching at home, as you already are. But please don't see the people in charge as enemies. They are in a very difficult position!

I've never attended a single church that had kids Sunday school at a separate time from the adult service. They always run concurrently. So if a church is small enough to have only one service and the parent served every week, they would literally never go to service. We encourage volunteers to serve once per month, so they aren't missing the service too often (it was different when we were at a church that had two service because you could serve at one and attend the other).

 

Serving in children's ministry is only one way to be involved in the church and only one way to be involved with spiritual formation of your children. Plenty of people who do music, ushering, sound, etc in my church can't do children's ministry because it is all happening at the same time. But I am sure most of those people are (if they are parents) still deeply committed to their kids' spiritual growth.

[Loowit]

I was thinking about his post last night when I found out that our youth pastor has decided to have a combined parent/teen Sunday school class this year.  We have decided not to attend.  The class topics are not something that I see as interesting.  The first topic they are covering for several months is a class on "social media/tech and our faith".  Sunday school is between services so we will just leave after first service.  The kids will still be attending church service and youth group.

[Bics]

I recently heard on a radio show someone quote statistics that students in a traditional classroom setting of teacher-student ratio, the students are more influenced by each other. The suggestion was a reversal--that for each child, five adults were needed to invest in that child. And that if that couldn't be achieved, it was better not to put the students in groups at all. It might not be the intention, but maybe it will be a side benefit to have?

Edited October 5, 2016 by Whippoorwill

[3 ladybugs]

My son wouldn't do well in classrooms at public school. I saw this last weekend. Typically at home if we are reading something he looks as if he isn't paying attention, but he is getting every word. He fidgets, he moves around, he does his own thing. In Sunday school this last weekend, he was moving around like that and the teacher was having issues with him. I had let DH go to adult classes so when YDS started misbehaving I had to focus on him, though I also saw that ODS wasn't being a typical student. I told DH that he has to go to class this weekend. YDS is too young for most activities. He doesn't color quite yet. 

 

We will see how this goes. It seems good in theory but implementing it is having some challenges. 

[shinyhappypeople]

Okay we are home. 

 

It wasn't that bad. I DO NOT think that my DH needs to be there every week. Unless this was an unusual week, I think just having one parent there would be fine. Today they sang songs, then we decorated a bag that will be our "Sunday School Bag" this was 1 per family. In it we have a "Sunday School Folder" that was supplied, that will put any hand outs that they give us. They want us to come next week (in our case in 2 weeks) with a bible in the bag. They give us a bible verse that we are to encourage the children to memorize. That is fine by me. I think that would be good for my older son. If my younger son wants to join in, he is welcome, but I imagine they will give him credit if he memorizes ANY verse. He is memorizing a verse as part of his curriculum that is for the whole month. We also got a nice laminated tri-folded paper that talks about how to do home prayers and study. We didn't know any of the traditional meal time prayers so it was nice that that was included. Next week we are suppose to get a book that will help with memory work I believe. Hopefully we can get it when we come back. 

 

What I took away from the study: It is clear that they need more help to do what they want to do. Seeing how my sons can be in the same class (for now, they didn't separate the 2-3 preschoolers from the Elementary kids) I don't see the need for my DH to continue to go. It was really too much for us both to be there, though today it was a bit nice as my youngest didn't get enough sleep and he is a bit of a terror. I will not likely learn that much with my children but seeing how I am a "newbie" of sorts, I will hopefully learn something. My older son will be encouraged to learn bible verses and in exchange of that, he will get charms (for lack of a better term) that he will put on a ring on the bag to show how good he was doing. That seems good. There is also a home worksheet that was provided that encourages families to get their children to look up different bible verses and copy them. So for my son's age (8) this is good as he needs more researching skills. There were 4 verses for him to look up and we do 4 day a week school weeks so that pairs well. 

 

I hope that they will develop things that my preschooler can do with time. Today he could draw a bit, but that was it. I actually played the song that teaches him his monthly bible verse for a bit today to keep him engaged in what we were doing. 

 

If the powers that be are open to constructive feedback, perhaps you could suggest "family Sunday School" once a month (e.g. first Sunday of the month), instead of every week.  It seems like they mean well, but I see having to do this every week with your kids as being really unworkable over the long term for many families.  

 

FWIW, I have two children and DH doesn't go to church with me so when younger DD was in elementary and older DD was in middle school, I would have had the dilemma of which one do I sit with and which one gets sloppy seconds?  And if it's oh-so-important that I sit in the class with my kid every week, what is the "mentor parent" going to do?  Come to our house and do the discussion with whichever kid was designated to get sloppy seconds that week?  Honestly,  I simply would have stopped going to Sunday School or changed churches.  

[shawthorne44]

My son wouldn't do well in classrooms at public school. I saw this last weekend. Typically at home if we are reading something he looks as if he isn't paying attention, but he is getting every word. He fidgets, he moves around, he does his own thing. In Sunday school this last weekend, he was moving around like that and the teacher was having issues with him. I had let DH go to adult classes so when YDS started misbehaving I had to focus on him, though I also saw that ODS wasn't being a typical student. I told DH that he has to go to class this weekend. YDS is too young for most activities. He doesn't color quite yet. 

 

We will see how this goes. It seems good in theory but implementing it is having some challenges. 

 

 

I've noticed that many parents particularly non-homeschooling parents don't realize that a fidgeting/playing kid could be listening closely.   Even some of the parents in co-op seem to think that.   Then they are surprised when the fidgeting kid can demonstrate comprehension.  

[Sahamamama2]

4. Allow parents or adults to volunteer to be "mentor parents" for those children whose parents cannot or choose not to attend. Every child is welcome and encouraged to participate even if they cannot be accompanied by a parent.

 

We hope that you can see the exciting potential this model has and are eager to participate.

 

Will these "mentor parents" be background-checked? How will the church monitor the interactions between these non-related adults and their assigned child? How will the church screen out potential predators, or notice grooming behaviors (towards abuse), or protect the innocent? Will the church actually use the term "mentor parent," thus giving children the sense of safety with people who may potentially harm them? Will safe church policies be in place? Can you see the church's safe church policy in writing? If you can't see it in writing, it probably doesn't exist.

 

I would deeply and relentlessly question the use of so-called "mentor parents" in this model. Unless you know more, there is potential for predators to enter in wearing "sheep's clothing." I hate to say it, but... the predator out there would definitely see the exciting potential and be eager to participate. That is only one of several serious problems with this model.

 

Another problem is that, as currently conceived and implemented, this model actually accomplishes the opposite of what they say they are trying to achieve -- a more parent-led, family-centered faith formation. Instead, here is the church, dictating to parents how they are to become spiritual leaders! :confused1: By attending a preschool class? Is that how it works?

 

No, if the church leaders were truly interested in putting the formation of spiritual leadership in the parents front and center, they would have first approached the parents, asked for their input, gained insights into their vulnerabilities and heartfelt hopes for their children, and come alongside to support true discipleship. As they have it here, though, this is a top-down, misguided attempt to develop "leaders" by insisting that people follow their latest idea. "Do what we tell you, because we want parents to show spiritual leadership for their families -- but only according to how we define it for you!" How infantilizing that is! No wonder your husband is offended.

 

IMO, it doesn't really matter how much they have "researched" it. It doesn't matter at all how many other pastors they have consulted, how many other congregations they have observed, or how much input they have received from the "experts" at the district level. So what? That's just them pursuing their own interests, that's not necessarily evidence of the leadership serving anyone by doing so. Yet they state that "the primary responsibility for faith formation resides with the parents. That leaves the church in a supportive role." Still, they have not actually turned over the primary position of authority, by saying, "Parents, we are here to serve you as you lead your families. Ultimately, God holds you accountable, He places you in charge. So, in light of our increased understanding of this biblical teaching, we ask you to tell us what to do to best support you."

 

How do you develop leadership within your own members if you bypass them completely and consult outside sources to authorize the idea you've already decided to implement? If I go here and there, I could find a variety of sources to "validate" just about anything I want to do. Making an "appeal to outside authority" doesn't really get you anywhere, if what you want to do is develop leadership in the people you have in your own pews.

 

Do you see how their implementation of this, out of the blue, without discussing the idea with the entire congregation (not just parents), undermines the very thing they say they want to achieve? I would call them on that, personally. The letter claims that they talked with parents. Did you or anyone you know hear anything about this new approach prior to the letter being sent out? Did they talk with singles, widows, couples, and everyone else affected by these changes?

Edited October 5, 2016 by Sahamamama2

[Milknhoney]

I think I understand the motivation behind what your church is trying to do, but I question how it is supposed to work out logistically.

 

My husband is the senior pastor at our church. Previously he was the youth pastor and I was at his side running the youth group. Then when he became the senior pastor, I led children's church during worship service. So the experiences Emmalm related really resonate with me! Our church is very small and predominately retired adults. So children's church usually only had maybe six kids in any given week. But it was super frustrating. It wasn't always the same six kids because people were inconsistent. A lot of the kids were grandkids of people in the congregation; the parents didn't even bother coming. Occasionally I would cancel CC so that we could all be in the service together for holidays like Easter, and later I started making it a once a month thing. You wouldn't believe the attitude I'd get from grandparents who were put out over not being able to just drop their kids off that week. Another thing that was really disheartening is that over time, the apathetic home life the kids were coming from always won out over whatever we were teaching the kids at church. One hour a week just can't compete with the other 167 hours of non-Christian life. So we'd have kids that really seemed like they "got it" and were so open to a relationship with the Lord. Then years would pass and they would get this glazed over look on their face, just like any other teenager. So sad.

 

One thing I found interesting reading through this thread is how many people didn't like the idea of sitting through a children's class because they would not get fed. One thing that I have always been disgusted with is Sunday school curriculum. Every one I have ever looked at is so watered down, I'm sure I'd hate it as a kid, let alone as an adult. It's interesting that nobody here wants to sit through that themselves, and yet why do we think it is good enough for our kids? I've always felt that we underestimate just how much children can understand about things spiritual. Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of God, we must become as little children. Sometimes I think children get it better than we do. So I never used a prefab curriculum when I taught children's church. I prepared my lesson using an adult commentary, just cutting the material down to a quantity a child can manage to sit through. I say this with all humility, but I honestly think that an adult would have gotten just as much out of my class as they would have over with the adults. I got that feedback from some of my adult helpers. So I think whether or not an adult got fed in a "family" Sunday school really depends on the teacher and the material being taught. 

 

Several years ago some friends introduced us to the family integrated model. We thought it was crazy at first, but after some time we saw the wisdom in it. I'm not going to go into the pros and cons of it here. If you are interested in learning more about it, I suggest reading Family Driven Faith by Voddie Baucham. We decided to transition our church to this model. We were in a unique position to do so because we have so few families who attend. We were actually down to two families, us and our youth pastor's family. So we didn't create quite the uproar your church has. We actually decided against a family Sunday school not because of parents but because of all the older folks without kids that would probably have objected to their sudden inclusion. We dropped the children's church class and now our kids come into the service with us. It isn't an ideal model, but for us that is mostly because it is unattractive to most people and therefore we are not getting new families to join our church and our kids don't get a chance to meet other kids! But I digress from the issue at hand. 

 

I think there are benefits to children and parents being side by side at church, and it sounds to me like you experienced that in your first week as you gained insight into how your children work and learn. I am not sure I agree with how your church has gone about implementing. I do not see how it is supposed to work out logistically because grade levels are split and what if you have more kids than parents, etc. Also, I think forced participation has a lot of people all upset. I see the need for change in parental mentality towards their children's spiritual education, but I don't see a one size fits all solution. Seems like teaching to the parents about their responsibilities to raise up their children in the knowledge of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict their hearts is the better way to go. Then let the parents decide how they want to get more involved in their child's Biblical training, if they aren't already. Some people may really benefit from joining their kids in class, but for those already doing their job at home, this just adds an extra burden.

 

I will say in defense of pastors that it is really, really, really, really hard to make a change based on how you feel God is leading you without making some people upset. So I would probably give him the benefit of the doubt and maybe make an appointment to talk to him during the week, to find out what is on his heart. Pastors often do not get enough support. It's a huge burden to lead a group of people that don't always want to be led. If you show willingness to understand where he is coming from in this change, he will probably be more willing to listen to you later on if things are not working out. 

 

I think it is good you decided to try it out and see how it works. An "adult" lesson is not the only way you can get fed. You may find yourself totally blessed to see your children learn, or to worship along with them. Or you never know, the Holy Spirit can use that kiddie lesson to convict you or teach you a truth He wants you to learn. He will meet you wherever you are at, whether that is a child's class or not. 

[bolt.]

This Voddie Baucham????!!!!????

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/12/01/6-things-you-should-know-about-voddie-baucham/amp/

 

I think his track record speaks for itself.

[Sahamamama2]

This Voddie Baucham????!!!!????

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/12/01/6-things-you-should-know-about-voddie-baucham/amp/

 

I think his track record speaks for itself.

 

This link is to the Homeschoolers Anonymous website, not exactly an objective news source. The entire article is heavily slanted. I'm not defending Voddie Baucham, just pointing out the bias of this link.

[bolt.]

This link is to the Homeschoolers Anonymous website, not exactly an objective news source. The entire article is heavily slanted. I'm not defending Voddie Baucham, just pointing out the bias of this link.

I know. I just didn't want to cobble together his unflattering quotes and questionable associations on my own time. Kind of a lazy approach, so, I'm sorry, and I agree. I'm not in favour of the bias of the bloggist. Edited October 6, 2016 by bolt.

[Bluegoat]

I think I understand the motivation behind what your church is trying to do, but I question how it is supposed to work out logistically.

 

My husband is the senior pastor at our church. Previously he was the youth pastor and I was at his side running the youth group. Then when he became the senior pastor, I led children's church during worship service. So the experiences Emmalm related really resonate with me! Our church is very small and predominately retired adults. So children's church usually only had maybe six kids in any given week. But it was super frustrating. It wasn't always the same six kids because people were inconsistent. A lot of the kids were grandkids of people in the congregation; the parents didn't even bother coming. Occasionally I would cancel CC so that we could all be in the service together for holidays like Easter, and later I started making it a once a month thing. You wouldn't believe the attitude I'd get from grandparents who were put out over not being able to just drop their kids off that week. Another thing that was really disheartening is that over time, the apathetic home life the kids were coming from always won out over whatever we were teaching the kids at church. One hour a week just can't compete with the other 167 hours of non-Christian life. So we'd have kids that really seemed like they "got it" and were so open to a relationship with the Lord. Then years would pass and they would get this glazed over look on their face, just like any other teenager. So sad.

 

One thing I found interesting reading through this thread is how many people didn't like the idea of sitting through a children's class because they would not get fed. One thing that I have always been disgusted with is Sunday school curriculum. Every one I have ever looked at is so watered down, I'm sure I'd hate it as a kid, let alone as an adult. It's interesting that nobody here wants to sit through that themselves, and yet why do we think it is good enough for our kids? I've always felt that we underestimate just how much children can understand about things spiritual. Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of God, we must become as little children. Sometimes I think children get it better than we do. So I never used a prefab curriculum when I taught children's church. I prepared my lesson using an adult commentary, just cutting the material down to a quantity a child can manage to sit through. I say this with all humility, but I honestly think that an adult would have gotten just as much out of my class as they would have over with the adults. I got that feedback from some of my adult helpers. So I think whether or not an adult got fed in a "family" Sunday school really depends on the teacher and the material being taught. 

 

Several years ago some friends introduced us to the family integrated model. We thought it was crazy at first, but after some time we saw the wisdom in it. I'm not going to go into the pros and cons of it here. If you are interested in learning more about it, I suggest reading Family Driven Faith by Voddie Baucham. We decided to transition our church to this model. We were in a unique position to do so because we have so few families who attend. We were actually down to two families, us and our youth pastor's family. So we didn't create quite the uproar your church has. We actually decided against a family Sunday school not because of parents but because of all the older folks without kids that would probably have objected to their sudden inclusion. We dropped the children's church class and now our kids come into the service with us. It isn't an ideal model, but for us that is mostly because it is unattractive to most people and therefore we are not getting new families to join our church and our kids don't get a chance to meet other kids! But I digress from the issue at hand. 

 

I think there are benefits to children and parents being side by side at church, and it sounds to me like you experienced that in your first week as you gained insight into how your children work and learn. I am not sure I agree with how your church has gone about implementing. I do not see how it is supposed to work out logistically because grade levels are split and what if you have more kids than parents, etc. Also, I think forced participation has a lot of people all upset. I see the need for change in parental mentality towards their children's spiritual education, but I don't see a one size fits all solution. Seems like teaching to the parents about their responsibilities to raise up their children in the knowledge of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict their hearts is the better way to go. Then let the parents decide how they want to get more involved in their child's Biblical training, if they aren't already. Some people may really benefit from joining their kids in class, but for those already doing their job at home, this just adds an extra burden.

 

I will say in defense of pastors that it is really, really, really, really hard to make a change based on how you feel God is leading you without making some people upset. So I would probably give him the benefit of the doubt and maybe make an appointment to talk to him during the week, to find out what is on his heart. Pastors often do not get enough support. It's a huge burden to lead a group of people that don't always want to be led. If you show willingness to understand where he is coming from in this change, he will probably be more willing to listen to you later on if things are not working out. 

 

I think it is good you decided to try it out and see how it works. An "adult" lesson is not the only way you can get fed. You may find yourself totally blessed to see your children learn, or to worship along with them. Or you never know, the Holy Spirit can use that kiddie lesson to convict you or teach you a truth He wants you to learn. He will meet you wherever you are at, whether that is a child's class or not. 

 

 

I do think you are correct about the quality of many SS curricula.  They are garbage, and what you are doing sounds much better.  And I'll bet many adults would get something out of it.

 

However - I also think that even new Christian adults can get things out of topics that are not interesting or useful to kids, they will often want to discuss things in a different way, and then there are also adults who are no longer at that level and need more advanced materials.

 

In the past year at my church, adult discussion groups have read Augustine's Confessions, a play by Dorothy Sayers, has a series on the seven deadly sins, and a series on the history of usury.  Lenten and Advent series often look at the writings of a Church Father or poet. 

 

I can't really imagine asking every adult to go through SS level teaching again, or keeping even their basic Bible study discussion at a level suitable for kids.