Remediate Spelling

[mymommy1]

My DS 11 is going into sixth and can't spell.  He can do basic words from programs he remembers, but "what" is STILL "whut".

He has had trouble with spelling and physical writing, so we are behind.  We have done AAS 1 and 2 and A&P A completely.  We've tried Sequential Spelling a long time ago and Natural Speller.  If he writes a word enough times, it will transfer to his writing.  I stopped AAS because it wasn't transferring to dictation.

 

Also, he had a full battery of evals and is not dyslexic.  His reading and logic are way over grade, but all skills are below.  He is very ADD.

 

Ideas about what to try or do to make progress?

[FO4UR]

I reformatted an old program for my dyslexic, struggling speller.  I combine cursive with spelling b/c it's 2 birds with one stone AND a hiccup in one leads to stagnation in the other.  Getting both penmanship and spelling off the ground together is critical, ime.  Cursive is better for many kids who struggle.  It's ergonomic.  Reversals are fewer. Whole words are a connected unit.  There are just many details that seem to fix with cursive.

 

I'd start at Grade 2 regardless of age if he's struggling with handwriting and the most common words seen on the sight word lists.  (This program uses the Ayer's list.) 

 

I add phonogram work, so the AAS will not all be lost. I also use visualization techniques like in A&P.  My oldest couldn't keep pace with A&P after book 1.  I had to do something.

[shinyhappypeople]

Apples Daily Spelling Drills for Secondary Students.  It's repetitive but, so far, has been very effective with my daughter.  

[Ellie]

Spalding.

[mymommy1]

Thanks for the replies!  I'll look at all of those.  Ellie, what would I need for Spalding?

[sbgrace]

Was Apples and Pears progressing? It did help my son, but I didn't see the transfer to other stuff in the first book. It all clicked in as we went if I recall.

 

We finished the program, and then I didn't know what to do. He just doesn't retain the visual look of words well. Your whut....that was my guy too. He's usually phonetic, just not even close to correct.

 

I started Spelling Power after completing Apples and Pears, but we were back to forgetting words after believing they were mastered, just like every other program before Apples and Pears.

 

I started a system that seems to be helping him. I'm going to try to explain it, in case it might help.

 

I started an index card box. The box has four dividers to make sections. I test words using the Spelling Power lists. If he misses a word in Spelling Power, I put the word on an index card. I just do one section of Spelling Power a day, collecting missed word cards as we go. Whenever we collect 25 missed word cards total, we stop Spelling Power and start the box.

 

I emphasized that he needs to be able to "see" the word in his mind to confidently and consistently spell it. Our goal is to have every word that's in his box solidly in his visual memory.

 

I give him a word on one of the missed words index cards. He writes it on a white board.  I show him the card. If it was wrong he corrects it, and I put the card in the front of the box. If it was correct, *and* he feels it's something solid/in his visual memory, I put the card in the first section. We go through all the cards in this way.

 

On subsequent days, I go through the cards one section at a time. Each time he spells the word, I show him the card so he can see the correct visual compared to his own writing/visual. Cards in the first section move to the 2nd section if correct or, if incorrect, go back to the front of the box. If 2nd section cards are correct, they move to 3rd section. If not, they go to the front of the box. If 3rd section cards are correct they move to the final, 4th section. Those 4th section cards aren't tested every day as they are considered mastered.  If cards from any of the sections--1, 2, 3, or even 4--are incorrect, they go back to the front of the box. When we have cards stuck in the front of the box, we do extra things with them--write them in a sentence, or on texture, or close our eyes and spell backward.

 

I keep this process up until all the cards have "graduated" to the 4th section. Those 4th section cards are retested, just however many work time wise whenever they fit into an otherwise slow spelling day, to check for long term retention. If anything is missed, it starts back at the beginning of the box. But we've had very few of those. So far it seems to be working well. I've been doing it for a few months.  Even better, he's started making his own cards with words he notices he is having trouble spelling while writing.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by sbgrace

[mymommy1]

Sbgrace, so glad to know I'm not alone!  Yes, A&P was working to the extent that once a word had been on the lessons for a while, he'd learn it.  He did make gains.

 

Thanks for describing your system.  I'll think about that. 

[Tenaj]

My now 19yods is still a terrible speller but he did improve through the use of studied dictation.  We use  the Modern Speller by Kate Van Wagenen which is available free on-line.  There are about eight levels I think.

 

I would have him study the passage.  Then dictate large chunks of the passage to him.  If he missed any of it (including punctuation) he repeated it daily until he got it right.  We did this for about four years and it was the time of the greatest improvement in his spelling.  

 

Like a previous poster said, the key seemed to be for him was to memorize how the word looks when it is spelled correctly.  By studying the passage first, he was able to get that process started.

 

He'll never win any spelling bees but he has improved.

[Ellie]

Thanks for the replies!  I'll look at all of those.  Ellie, what would I need for Spalding?

 

You'd need the manual (Writing Road to Reading, preferably the fourth edition) and a set of phonogram cards. Your ds will need a spelling notebook (black-and-white sewn composition book). That's it. :-)

[UCF612]

Perhaps something more auditory like Phonetic Zoo. I went to a talk by Andrew Pudewa at our homeschool convention. He talked about spelling being all about sequencing. If he's having trouble possibly he's inputting the sequence incorrectly visually and would benefit from auditory sequencing instead. All that said we use All About Spelling successfully so I've never actually used Phonetic Zoo. And I don't know if they are other similarly approached options.

[mymommy1]

JanOH, we are working on studied dictation right now and have tried just copywork before.  He can read the section, see the words, then write them wrong.  Just 2 or 3 at a time.  We are working with Spelling Wisdom right now.  Does Modern Speller organize the words by sounds or anything?

 

Thanks, Ellie!  I think our library has that book, so it's worth looking at.

[mymommy1]

ucf612, thanks for the reminder.  I've listened to that talk.  We aren't to Phonetic Zoo level yet, as it starts after AAS3 or so.   It does have to do with his sequencing and greatly with working memory because he has ADD.  His short term memory is horrible, and his long term for things like math facts and spelling words is not much better.  The words he can spell are the ones that he had in LOTS of lessons.

Edited June 8, 2016 by mymommy1

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

If A and P was working, why not go back to that?  My bad speller(s) is not quite as old as your son, but I have seen noticeable improvement with A&P.  We are just about to finish the last lesson of the first book (!) doing one workbook page per day.  The improvement IS transferring, but progress if obviously slow.  I plan to continue with A&P through all four levels because the British spelling doesn't bother me (it's what the local Swiss kids will learn in school anyway).  

 

But what I really came in to say was that we just learned a new dictation method that we are really liking, and it's really helping.  I'll summarize both our dictation methods, as "French dictation" is the end-all-be-all of dictation, as we all know.  :-P

 

First, the new one we're enthusiastic about:  "Dictée à Copie" (Copywork-Dictation)

- First, you go over the passage (anywhere from 1-3 or more sentences, depending on your kid).  Point out any obvious difficulties.  Then, decide (as the teacher) how many "peeks" the child gets at the original while doing their copyworb-dictation.  I would suggest starting high, but not so high as one peek per word.  Then, go tape the original model up on the wall at least a few steps away from the work table and where it cannot be consulted from the table.  The child can go up to the model up to X times, but must go empty handed.  They then must hold the text in their minds (the actual words, the spelling, and the mechanics) until they are seated again and can write it out.  

 

When first using this method, really work with your child on how to "chunk" the information into memorable bits.  Encourage them to remember the entire noun group, the entire verb group, the entire prepositional phrase, etc.  Encourage them to identify tricky words and study them carefully before returning to the seat.  Encrouage them to save the last trip for a check on any doubtful parts the child isn't sure he copies right.  

 

Anyway, because it's new, my kids think it's great.  lol.  

 

The regular old French dictation is "prepared", but it's important to note that the parent is very active in the prep process, at least in the elementary ages.  I think Spelling Wisdom doesn't make that very clear.  In a French prepared dictation, the student doesn't actually see the text that will be dictated.  They see the troublesome words, verb endings, etc.  During the dictation itself, if there is a comma, I will say things like, "Listen to the whole sentence without writing, and then I will give it to you in chunks.  There is a comma in the sentence, and I want to see if you can hear where it is."  When warned, they can always "hear" the comma.  Anyway, I dictate the entire passage by chunks.  THEN, and very importantly, I have them go through and do a self-check from a checklist:  Capital/end punctuation, then a whole bunch of other items that are applicable to French but not Enligsh.  LOL.  

 

Hope that helps!  Try the copyworb-dictation method to help your kid with chunking and holding things in memory.  

[BlsdMama]

My DS 11 is going into sixth and can't spell.  He can do basic words from programs he remembers, but "what" is STILL "whut".

He has had trouble with spelling and physical writing, so we are behind.  We have done AAS 1 and 2 and A&P A completely.  We've tried Sequential Spelling a long time ago and Natural Speller.  If he writes a word enough times, it will transfer to his writing.  I stopped AAS because it wasn't transferring to dictation.

 

Also, he had a full battery of evals and is not dyslexic.  His reading and logic are way over grade, but all skills are below.  He is very ADD.

 

Ideas about what to try or do to make progress?

 

 

So your kiddo has ADHD, probably dysgraphic, still can't spell basic words.  I'll get raked on the coals for this one, but hey, I'm a good sport.

 

Could your kiddo rhyme when he was in preschool?

Could he do his times tables normally?

Did he struggle tying his shoes?

 

Who did the dyslexia testing?

 

I'd aim for an OG based program.

[mymommy1]

No coal raking from me.  He can rhyme now, but not then.  Knows half of all his tables, counts on his fingers, etc.  Still struggles to tie his shoes.  That's why we did the testing; I always expected dyslexia (and ADHD).  The same person did all the testing (a psychiatrist).  Her actual reply was that with his ADD so high, the test could not indicate dyslexia.  If we wanted, we could retest him medicated to see if it was really there.

 

Do you have an OG program that you like better than others?

Edited June 9, 2016 by mymommy1

[mymommy1]

Monica in Switzerland, we stopped A&P because I didn't feel like it was working well enough.

[CatholicMom]

My son struggled with spelling big-time (he just turned 13) for yeeears after doing all the same programs you have!  I was so incredibly frustrated and disheartened I almost just quit doing spelling with him for a while because I was beside myself. Anyway, what I ended up doing was quitting everything we had been doing, and I had him do a dolch sight word workbook. I wish I could remember the name of it. It had a red cover, and I wanna think a bullseye on the front. Very "little kid-ish" and possibly a 2nd grade level. This was when he was 12. It was sooo many years behind and opposite of everything you're told about teaching phonics, the rules, etc. And it was really easy for him. BUT it was the first time he seemed to retain spellings!!!! He made a little progress. Not a lot, but a little. A little was more than before! So then I found Evan Moor's Building Spelling Skills. I had him start in 2nd or 3rd grade level; I can't remember now. But again, he was actually progressing for the first time in - I kid you not - like 5 YEARS. I'm now seeing him spell words in his writing that I had started to think he would never spell without help! I'm seeing spelling "click" with him like never before. It seems super counter-intuitive but if nothing else is working - why not? 

 

I say if you are desperate, give it a try. I think kids learn in different ways and more rules and more break-downs of details sometimes is the exact opposite of what kids need. My son was SUCH a phonetic speller (to a fault) that more phonics didn't help him get all the nuances. AAS got him *nowhere* even though he was great at memorizing all the letter sounds, etc. But letting his own brain get the "feel" of spelling with a MUCH simpler approach actually helped so much.

 

Everyone is different, but just a thought!

Edited June 9, 2016 by CatholicMom

[CatholicMom]

Sure sounds dyslexic to me... I wouldn't equate her refusal to test with a diagnosis of "not dyslexic." 

 

My son is.

[Storygirl]

When was the testing done? If it has been awhile (two to three years), it may be time to retest to find out if it is in fact dyslexia. I would go to a different psychologist, or perhaps the public school (which would be free). Make sure they run a CTOPP. A good psych will be able to tell you if it is ADHD or dyslexia or perhaps both (they are often comorbid), even without meds in use.

 

For what it's worth, your description sounds like dyslexia to me (we have dyslexia here as well). Dyslexic students do best with an Orton Gillingham reading and spellng program (or something similar, such as Wilson). Traditional methods often do not work, no matter how hard you try. Although there are some OG programs you can use at home, some people find the expertise of an OG trained tutor to be very helpful.

 

 

 

[mymommy1]

CatholicMom, thank you for the suggestion.  I think that's worth a try.  I had phonics in school, but distinctly remember spelling being so hard!  I was an A student otherwise, but I didn't really catch on to spelling till high school and college when I had to type so many papers.  Even now, I choose words based on if I can spell them.  I can learn the rules, but my problem is deciphering the sounds to decide which rule to use.  I think a sight word book is worth a try even along with the other suggestions.  At least he might learn "what"! 

 

Also, she didn't refuse to do the test.  He had the complete battery of tests for IQ, achievement, LD, gifted, etc that they offer.  According to all the results, he does not have an LD.  The reason being, the tests showed he is working at his level.  There was not the discrepancy in achievement and IQ to indicate gifted or LD.  (I think I explained that correctly.)  She thought that the test would be more accurate in IQ, LD, gifted, etc. if his ADD was being treated.  He was not able to hold his attention to the test and showed many inconsistencies normal with ADHD.  She felt with meds that would go away, and the results might change. 

[alisoncooks]

My son struggled with spelling big-time (he just turned 13) for yeeears after doing all the same programs you have!  I was so incredibly frustrated and disheartened I almost just quit doing spelling with him for a while because I was beside myself. Anyway, what I ended up doing was quitting everything we had been doing, and I had him do a dolch sight word workbook. I wish I could remember the name of it. It had a red cover, and I wanna think a bullseye on the front. Very "little kid-ish" and possibly a 2nd grade level. This was when he was 12. It was sooo many years behind and opposite of everything you're told about teaching phonics, the rules, etc. And it was really easy for him. BUT it was the first time he seemed to retain spellings!!!! He made a little progress. Not a lot, but a little. A little was more than before! So then I found Evan Moor's Building Spelling Skills. I had him start in 2nd or 3rd grade level; I can't remember now. But again, he was actually progressing for the first time in - I kid you not - like 5 YEARS. I'm now seeing him spell words in his writing that I had started to think he would never spell without help! I'm seeing spelling "click" with him like never before. It seems super counter-intuitive but if nothing else is working - why not? 

 

I say if you are desperate, give it a try. I think kids learn in different ways and more rules and more break-downs of details sometimes is the exact opposite of what kids need. My son was SUCH a phonetic speller (to a fault) that more phonics didn't help him get all the nuances. AAS got him *nowhere* even though he was great at memorizing all the letter sounds, etc. But letting his own brain get the "feel" of spelling with a MUCH simpler approach actually helped so much.

 

Everyone is different, but just a thought!

 

 

This sounds a lot like my oldest DD.  (In fact, I started a thread not long ago about how I worried that Apples & Pears wasn't working for her.)  What has amazed me is that, even though we have taken a break from spelling for a month or so, her spelling has really improved!  From what?  I think it's from becoming a voracious reader.  Just that exposure to words over and over, saturating that visual need -- which seems pretty similar to what you mention above.  My daughter has had the phonetic approach....but found it overwhelming/confusing.  She almost always choose the wrong way to spell vowels (ie. ay instead of ai).  But with repeated exposure to sight words in her reading, she's improved.

Edited June 9, 2016 by alisoncooks

[kolamum]

My boys are teens as well & still do spelling. We use Sequential Spelling & it works well for them. 

They went from doing what you mentioned to easily spelling far more complicated words. 

Mind you, I find it hilarious they can easily spell friend now, but still trip on could from time to time. {I told them the way to remember how to spell friend was to say fri [said fry]-end} ;)

[FO4UR]

So your kiddo has ADHD, probably dysgraphic, still can't spell basic words.  I'll get raked on the coals for this one, but hey, I'm a good sport.

 

Could your kiddo rhyme when he was in preschool?

Could he do his times tables normally?

Did he struggle tying his shoes?

 

Who did the dyslexia testing?

 

I'd aim for an OG based program.

 

I agree with everything, except I'd add a caveat to the OG based program thing.  For kids who primarily have an auditory glitch, I think OG is wonderful.  For kids who struggle primarily with a visual glitch, I don't think OG does enough.

 

Now, I am putting on my flame retardant suit. :lol:  (Yes, I've used enough Spalding and OG to know.  SWR and Recipe for Reading...Great programs!  They are just not magic.  I've bought, borrowed and studied others (including WRTR) b/c as I worked with my oldest I thought I must be missing something about the process. Nope.  It just didn't work for my kid.)

 

 

Spelling is largely a visual skill. The rules and phonograms apply, but there are so many cases where you simply have to memorize which rule/phonogram applies to which word....I mean, why "which" and not "witch?"  And...word...wird...werd...weard...I mean wierd...no, I mean weird!  :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Good spellers are good at holding the mental picture of the word in their head.  So when remediating spelling, teach them how to take (and keep) mental pictures in their head. 

 

This is why copywork and dictation work so well for spelling. They force a person to hold a visual memory of the words.

 

 

No coal raking from me.  He can rhyme now, but not then.  Knows half of all his tables, counts on his fingers, etc.  Still struggles to tie his shoes.  That's why we did the testing; I always expected dyslexia (and ADHD).  The same person did all the testing (a psychiatrist).  Her actual reply was that with his ADD so high, the test could not indicate dyslexia.  If we wanted, we could retest him medicated to see if it was really there.

 

Do you have an OG program that you like better than others?

 

 

If it were me and mine, I would simply move forward teaching him as if he is dyslexic in regards to spelling.

 

In other subjects, accommodate.

 

Don't spend too much time on spelling. Focus your time spelling on building the skills needed to learn HOW to spell.  (Heck, even I use google when I'm at the computer. Type in what it sounds like, search for the correct definition, boom!  There is the spelling.)

 

I've got a 13yo dyslexic who will not get to college on a spelling scholarship. :hat:   Math is his meal ticket. And, he was visibly and joyfully relieved when I explained that the content of his writing is more important than the mechanics. (I might be editing his writing for him for years to come. That's OK.) He has a good mind.  He has important thoughts and ideas. He has put in so much time on learning how to read and how to spell that it's a shame he doesn't get some sort of award. (He knows more phonics than most elementary school teachers!) He still cannot spell.

 

OG programs take a ton of time out of the school day.  Take that into consideration. At a certain age, they are better off focusing on those things that will be used to build their future.  We all know at least one quirky adult who, although intelligent and successful, cannot spell to save their lives.

[mymommy1]

Thank you, 4blessingmom, for that thoughtful reply.  I've been studying spelling for days.

 

I also wanted to add 3 things for anyone who reads the thread in the future. 

 

1. AAS seemed to be working.  He was 9 and finished level 1 and 2.  He hated the tiles, hated spelling, couldn't remember the rules, but did learn words.  I was bored, frustrated with lack of progress, and had another son to teach that was quickly catching up to his older brother.  Now I know that ADHD and other such things cause inconsistency in learning.  It was probably working more than I thought at the time.  We probably could have dropped it for a while and returned and progressed.

 

2. A&P did show progress, probably more than AAS, but he was older.  Why didn't I continue?  Even doing a modified 1/2 lesson a day, it was taking all his writing strength/tolerance he had.  I need him to start writing/copying his own sentences (like in WWE 3 and 4), so he can write a paragraph.  I can't use all his writing time on spelling.

 

3. My husband (and others) thought if he learned to read well, he would spell well.  It didn't work.  I guess he got my spelling ability instead of dad's!

Thanks for all the help.

[FO4UR]

Thank you, 4blessingmom, for that thoughtful reply.  I've been studying spelling for days.

 

I also wanted to add 3 things for anyone who reads the thread in the future. 

 

1. AAS seemed to be working.  He was 9 and finished level 1 and 2.  He hated the tiles, hated spelling, couldn't remember the rules, but did learn words.  I was bored, frustrated with lack of progress, and had another son to teach that was quickly catching up to his older brother.  Now I know that ADHD and other such things cause inconsistency in learning.  It was probably working more than I thought at the time.  We probably could have dropped it for a while and returned and progressed.

 

2. A&P did show progress, probably more than AAS, but he was older.  Why didn't I continue?  Even doing a modified 1/2 lesson a day, it was taking all his writing strength/tolerance he had.  I need him to start writing/copying his own sentences (like in WWE 3 and 4), so he can write a paragraph.  I can't use all his writing time on spelling.

 

3. My husband (and others) thought if he learned to read well, he would spell well.  It didn't work.  I guess he got my spelling ability instead of dad's!

Thanks for all the help.

 

 

I'm nodding my head in familiarity and agreement from this side of the internet. :grouphug:

 

It's not you.  He's going to be a bad speller, but it will be OK.

 

We did A&P for a while too.  My 2nd child went through Book C before I decided she didn't need spelling lessons anymore.  She does improve spelling through reading like most people.  My oldest/dyslexic went through Book A more than once...sigh...

 

He does improve with the program I reformatted, but even with that I am tweaking spelling to take up the least amount of time as possible. It's simply never going to be a strength for him. And, if he's going to do the things he wants to do in life, he's got to focus on his strengths. (My 3rd child, also a dyslexic, does very well with my spelling program.  My oldest is just an unusually tough nut to crack.)

[MerryAtHope]

Thank you, 4blessingmom, for that thoughtful reply.  I've been studying spelling for days.

 

I also wanted to add 3 things for anyone who reads the thread in the future. 

 

1. AAS seemed to be working.  He was 9 and finished level 1 and 2.  He hated the tiles, hated spelling, couldn't remember the rules, but did learn words.  I was bored, frustrated with lack of progress, and had another son to teach that was quickly catching up to his older brother.  Now I know that ADHD and other such things cause inconsistency in learning.  It was probably working more than I thought at the time.  We probably could have dropped it for a while and returned and progressed.

 

2. A&P did show progress, probably more than AAS, but he was older.  Why didn't I continue?  Even doing a modified 1/2 lesson a day, it was taking all his writing strength/tolerance he had.  I need him to start writing/copying his own sentences (like in WWE 3 and 4), so he can write a paragraph.  I can't use all his writing time on spelling.

 

3. My husband (and others) thought if he learned to read well, he would spell well.  It didn't work.  I guess he got my spelling ability instead of dad's!

Thanks for all the help.

 

It's always hard to know how to proceed when we have a student that struggles. Don't beat yourself up over it or second guess at this point--just decide what's best moving forward. I'd probably do some things differently at certain stages, but all in all, they learn and grow sometimes because of us and what we use, sometimes despite us and what we use! Just keep working. He'll get there. 

 

 

Spelling is largely a visual skill. The rules and phonograms apply, but there are so many cases where you simply have to memorize which rule/phonogram applies to which word....I mean, why "which" and not "witch?"  And...word...wird...werd...weard...I mean wierd...no, I mean weird!  :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

LOL! Yes, effective spellers tend to use a variety of skills. If they ignored phonics and rules, spelling would be reduced to memorizing characters in order--can you imagine memorizing 5,000-10,000 phone numbers? That would be a pretty miserable task (though I did know a girl who compulsively memorized people's license plate numbers and was pretty amazing! She knew at least several hundred people's plates.) Good spellers tend to use a combination of effective strategies--phonics, rules-based, visual, and morphemic. 

 

Also, AAS can be done in 15-20 minutes per day, and includes strategies to help students develop writing stamina as they get into the upper levels--so it is possible to do an OG spelling program without it taking over the day. When it's the right fit for the student and family, it can be a huge benefit. 

[Joker]

Megawords was a huge blessing here for youngest. I had given up hope that anything would work but it did.

 

I don't think it gets many reviews but it was a lifesaver here. She's now in high school and has excellent grades and is often praised for her writing. I never thought I'd see that happen.

[Incognito]

You could take a look at Spelling You See.  My child who has had a really hard time with spelling has made good progress with this program this year.  If you don't want to use up their writing time on writing, you could try just coloring the words and not copying/coloring as well.   I think you'd still need to do the dictation at the end of the week to test the spelling, but most days would be writing free.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Incognito

[Bics]

I am not ahead of you; I am right with you in the trenches, but my plan for this upcoming year is to use Phonics Pathways, starting at the final blends (milk, belt,) and have my 8-year-old write it until it is easy.  Not moving on based on a M-F week, not a test of Friday, new list on Monday-none of that.  Just, "Copy and read this page until it is easy." Then we will move on.  I am trying mastery approach for her.  I saw her labor to sound out "Jun 17 ded-line" today and was just happy "line" had an ​e.