Vaccine question

[TranquilMind]

A vaccinated child is far, far less likely to have a vaccine-preventable disease than an unvacccinated child, of course.  I doubt the woman is worried about her baby catching a cold.  And there is a difference between being around the mostly-vaccinated public and inviting a group of unvaccinated children into your home to visit for a few days.

 

There are consequences to choosing to not vaccinate.

 

The recent outbreaks in vaccinated populations would belie this assertion.  It's a crap shoot.  Maybe.  Maybe not. 

[Amira]

The recent outbreaks in vaccinated populations would belie this assertion. It's a crap shoot. Maybe. Maybe not.

If you think that fully vaccinated children are as likely to get vaccine-preventable diseases as unvaccinated children, I have some property on Mars to sell you.

 

Not only is there overwhelming evidence that that is not the case, I have also seen for myself the difference that vaccines make in the health of many people around the world. The polio vaccine, for example, is NOT a "crap shoot."

[kiana]

Let us consider some statistics, fabricated so that I have easy numbers to work with.

 

Let us say that disease X has a vaccine that is not super effective, and 20% of exposed, vaccinated people will get it. Meanwhile, 50% of exposed, non-vaccinated people will get it.

 

Suppose that we have 80 vaccinated and 20 non-vaccinated people who are all exposed. The expected value is that 20% of the vaccinated (16) will become sick, while 50% of the non-vaccinated (10) will become sick. Now, it is easy to look at that and say "Well, 16 of the sick people were vaccinated and 10 weren't! We might as well not vaccinate if it's such a crapshoot!"

 

But if it really were a crapshoot, we'd expect to see the same percentage of illness in the exposed vaccinated versus the exposed non-vaccinated. In reality, this hypothetical vaccine worked significantly better than not being vaccinated at all, and the apparent difference is solely because there were far more vaccinated than non-vaccinated.

 

And that's all vaccination does. It is not, and not intended to be, 100% effective (though it is significantly more effective in most cases than the example I have concocted here because I don't feel like working with ugly numbers at this time of night). But it reduces the chances significantly.

[Crimson Wife]

In my extended family, we have a chronically, seriously ill toddler.  If she were to get the flu or pertussis, it would be fatal. We also have non-vaccinating cousins.  They are no longer allowed to see ill toddler since they don't vaccinate, especially against flu. 

 

There was nothing in the OP's post to indicate that the 10 month old has a chronic health condition. I think she would've mentioned that since it changes the risk dramatically.

[Carrie12345]

I think some of us try to compensate (perhaps I overcompensate at times) for all the people who bring sick kids all over the place with little regard for others.  I honestly do understand how miserable it can be to stay locked up while a cold or virus slowly makes its way through a family (especially a large family,) but I feel like it has desensitized people, especially when it's so difficult to get *approval* for sick days at school or work.  And, since many of these things start out with "normal" illness symptoms, they get passed around in the early stages just like colds.

 

I've been trying to get my kids together with MY sil's kids, and we've spent the past few weekends sharing our various kids' symptoms before setting plans.  Fevers and diarrhea have kept us apart for the past few weeks. Though I think we're starting to get to the point of just letting them all be sick together, lol.

[Valley Girl]

I agree there's a certain amount of risk in going out in public, and we all assume it willingly rather than isolate ourselves at home. But most of us try to exercise common sense caution in wiping down grocery carts, avoiding people who appear ill, etc. in that context.

 

But that is different from being in close, sustained contact with someone. I'm assuming the children involved are on the young side. How many noses will be picked before touching the 10-month-old. How many uncovered sneezes will take place next to the baby? How many germy fingers will try hold the baby's hand and touch the toys? Kids are going to spread germs to each other. Kids get sick. That's unavoidable.

 

But I really don't understand the disdain for the mother's position. That her SIL decided not to vaccinate is her decision. Fine and good. She did what she felt was best for her family. But the other mother apparently DOES support vaccination and wants to minimize the risk of certain illnesses to her as-yet not-fully-protected baby. Why is that a problem?

 

We have no idea what the mother's experience is. Has there been an outbreak of some sort recently in her area? Does she know someone whose baby became seriously ill with a preventable disease? Does SIL have a history of bringing children who are ill or feeling "off" to other people's homes? Do the mother and SIL mutually respect each other's position? Was SIL actually invited, or did she just show up even knowing the mom's concerns?

 

I had family members whom I could not trust to tell me if their child was ill before bringing that child around or inviting family to their house. I--and my baby--learned the hard way. I was MUCH more cautious about them after that. If I they didn't vaccinate, I would have had more to worry about.

 

[JoJosMom]

Yeah, I wouldn't be thrilled with older unvaxed kids playing up close/intensely with my baby either. (DS was a premie & my ped was clear on avoiding exposure to anything.)

 

Same situation here.  Because she was so small, DD was on a delayed and slowed vax schedule.  We kept her very close to home and away from groups of people.  Although I believe that whether to vaccinate or not is a decision best left to parents, I also believe that controlling the environment of a vulnerable little one is also best left to parents - and one I would be very hesitant to criticize or judge.

[TranquilMind]

I agree there's a certain amount of risk in going out in public, and we all assume it willingly rather than isolate ourselves at home. But most of us try to exercise common sense caution in wiping down grocery carts, avoiding people who appear ill, etc. in that context.

 

But that is different from being in close, sustained contact with someone. I'm assuming the children involved are on the young side. How many noses will be picked before touching the 10-month-old. How many uncovered sneezes will take place next to the baby? How many germy fingers will try hold the baby's hand and touch the toys? Kids are going to spread germs to each other. Kids get sick. That's unavoidable.

 

But I really don't understand the disdain for the mother's position. That her SIL decided not to vaccinate is her decision. Fine and good. She did what she felt was best for her family. But the other mother apparently DOES support vaccination and wants to minimize the risk of certain illnesses to her as-yet not-fully-protected baby. Why is that a problem?

 

We have no idea what the mother's experience is. Has there been an outbreak of some sort recently in her area? Does she know someone whose baby became seriously ill with a preventable disease? Does SIL have a history of bringing children who are ill or feeling "off" to other people's homes? Do the mother and SIL mutually respect each other's position? Was SIL actually invited, or did she just show up even knowing the mom's concerns?

 

I had family members whom I could not trust to tell me if their child was ill before bringing that child around or inviting family to their house. I--and my baby--learned the hard way. I was MUCH more cautious about them after that. If I they didn't vaccinate, I would have had more to worry about.

 

It isn't a problem for either to make the right decision for their families.  It seems to me that the disdain is directed at the SIL, not the mom with the baby.  Either can and should do what she thinks is best. 

 

I agree with you about those untrustworthy people who never tell you their kids are sick but bring them along anyway.   They lie and try to tell you that it is "allergies".  I've known these people and avoided them as much as possible. 

 

I appreciate those few I have known who were kind enough to call and say that they are so sorry and were looking forward to seeing us, but their kid clearly may be coming down with something so we need to reschedule. 

 

[gypsymama]

Warning if you can't read sarcasm you might not want to read this:

It makes perfect sense for the vaccinating mother to want to avoid the unvaccinated children. I hope she is also inquiring about the vax status of every child involved in sports/groups/clubs/activities with her children so that she can avoid them as well. I am assuming she is a homeschool mother so she can protect them from unvaxxed in the public sector if she is in a state that allows exemptions. I am assuming she also grocery shops, runs errands, etc while her spouse can be home with the children to avoid exposing them to the public. I'm also assuming that she and her husband are and remain up to date on all of their vaccines to further protect the children. I hope she's also thought to ask every VAXXING family if their children have recently been vaccinated because of the risk then. Add to this the normal checking for signs of illness and avoiding sick people.

 

 

There are risks in the world. Decisions should be made logically after considering all the facts. We should also respect others' rights to make the best decision for their own circumstances and learn not to be a b!t@# about it. There's taking precautions and protecting your family and then there is be a judgmental B. Two very different things. 

 

*Disclaimer: I am a selected/delayed vaxxer. I have considered all the information, seen the risks & benefits and have come to the best decisions for my own children. I expect each mother makes to do the same. I respect that and hope they can do the same.

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

I have no problem with people sharing germs with my kids.  They don't have health issues.  It builds immunity.  Even at 10mo I wouldn't have fussed about it.  But the comfort level age for that naturally varies from mom to mom, even for healthy babies.

 

My kids didn't get the MMR until age 2.5, and nobody ever asked about it; it never came up.  They were in gymnastics and kindermusik, played with cousins and went to the park.

 

Before or after vaxing, if I know a child has immunity issues, I will keep my kids away if they have any symptoms or have been around anyone sick.  But in my world, the norm is that spreading germs is benign, and it's on the parent of the fragile kids to let others know / keep their kids safe.

 

Obviously if I suspected my kid had measles (or been around it), I'd quarantine my kid.  But where I live, measles is a very rare occurrence.

 

I think anyone who lives their lives as if all children are likely carriers of a deadly disease is not having much of a life.  But it's their choice I guess.

Edited May 30, 2016 by SKL

[catz]

I think anyone who lives their lives as if all children are likely carriers of a deadly disease is not having much of a life.  But it's their choice I guess.

 

Well, in no way do I think not wanting to have young unvaxed kids staying in the home with a child too young to be vaxed is choosing to live a limited life.  There's a big difference than spending an hour or 2 at a gym, park, library, class with various kids and being able to wash up and go home than to have a young child potentially touching your baby 10 hours a day when you really can't follow up constantly with hand washing.

 

I'm so not a germophobe at all.  I am super laid back about fever free symptoms in kids unless I know there is a child with susceptibility/asthma/etc.  So I think parents that have kids with these issues need to be very upfront to their friends, teachers, etc.  I was born with malformed sinuses, have allergies, and have had sinus surgery so if I stayed home every time I had an upper respiratory symptom I'd be a shut in. 

 

But this situation doesn't seem like a super weird choice for the parent of a young baby not vaxed to me.  Especially for a parent who might know someone who had an infant hospitalized for one of this illnesses.  I know a kid hospitalized for rotavirus that has permanent kidney damage.  I know another child that was hospitalized with pertussis.  It did change how I looked at this stuff when my kids were young.

[TravelingChris]

I can understand the mother's concern for the baby.  Your chances of contracting a disease are much better in close quarters like a home or an office.  You can see how this plays out when there is a person with tb.  They check out the people in the airplane with them. their housemates, and their workmates.  They don't check out everyone in the grocery store they went to or other such places.  

[Artichoke]

A woman on another board I visit is mad because her SIL is visiting. The SIL has unvaccinated kids so the woman is not letting her 10 month old around the cousins. I'm like, wut?? It wouldn't occur to me to ask about the vaccine status of other kids. Am I too lax or is this woman overly cautious??

Do we know she asked her SIL about the vaccines, or does the SIL openly discuss her antivax stance? My niece will tell anyone and everyone who'll listen that her kids are unvaccinated. Seriously, she can work it into almost any conversation.

[HS Mom in NC]

I have a kid who was immunocompromised and wasn't vaxxed until her mid teens and is currently being vaxxd one at time slowly. We have an illegal immigrant population, we're a border state and she was attending community college for a semester before cleared for her first vaxx. We just lived our lives. We didn't announce it and if no one asked about her medical issues, we didn't tell them about it.

Last fall she got whooping cough. She hadn't been vaxxed for that yet because her immunologist recommended a very different schedule including a vaxx most people don't get until they're elderly. Her whopping cough was so mild (less than a mild cold) we wouldn't have believed the diagnosis except for the blood test. The doctor did not tell her to quarantine herself even though she works at a hospital doing clerical work. She just shouldn't be around babies. Her boyfriend, who has been vaxxed on schedule his whole life also came down with it and it was a worse case (like a bad cold.) We cancelled a family event and she didn't go to work while she was sick.

 

My take on this?  Parents should decide for themselves what they are and aren't willing to expose their children to and everyone else should just not worry about someone else's decision.  It turns out, according to the doctor, that whooping cough cycles through the vaxxed population every 3-5 years which means my unvaxxed kid could've got it from a vaxxed or unvaxxed person. My experience with a doctor treating it is that they aren't as upset about it as mommies are. If you know you've got it, stay away from people or let people know up front what you've got and let them decide.  If they decide differently than you would, let. it go.  You can't afford emotional energy on things you don't have control over.

[TranquilMind]

Do we know she asked her SIL about the vaccines, or does the SIL openly discuss her antivax stance? My niece will tell anyone and everyone who'll listen that her kids are unvaccinated. Seriously, she can work it into almost any conversation.

 

That's amazing to me, with all the vitriol spewn at those who have decided differently than the mainstream even on one issue, like declining Gardasil.  Hateful people are happy to share online and some even in person that those out of lockstep should automatically lose their kids, be arrested if anyone in the vicinity of their kid gets sick (even if their kid isn't sick so could not have been the source), or be barred from all public places.  Some even think they should be ousted from the country.   I remember one time I was in a park just hanging out and overheard just this conversation amongst a group of parents at the next table.  Yes, I declined from entering it, but I was tempted given the hysterical tone.  

 

I've never met a person like your niece in my sphere.  I guess things could be changing. 

[Janeway]

We just got emails from the school district this week of a local pertussis outbreak--5 different schools have cases (elem, middle school, and high school). Last spring there was an outbreak too--two daughters of acquaintances both got it (they were high school freshmen). Does it tend to increase at this time of year? Pertussis isn't any fun for anyone, but it's potentially deadly to infants so I understand the precaution.

The staff are not required to be vaccinated or exempted. Most adults do not realize they do not have current shots unless they have gone in in recent years. That is usually the source.