Riots?

[Debbie in OR]

Well, no. The news stories I've seen are all quoting McCain strategists. Like this one from the WaPo story linked above:

 

What you quote is not the same as this (sorry, I had to cut and paste...haven't figured out how to quote two people in the same post:001_huh:):

 

"...because media reports over the weekend suggest the McCain campaign has decided the only way it can possibly win is by mounting an intensely negative smear effort for the next month."

[tibbyl]

never mind

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Right. Speculation and opinion. (IMHO!)

 

Uh... no. Reporting of what Sen. McCain said. The gloves are off as of last week, he said. We're going to get tougher, the campaign said. His campaign manager, Rick Davis, said this election is not about issues.

 

Is that speculation? Op-ed pieces are speculation. Reporting what someone says (and then does) is not.

[kokotg]

What you quote is not the same as this (sorry, I had to cut and paste...haven't figured out how to quote two people in the same post:001_huh:):

 

"...because media reports over the weekend suggest the McCain campaign has decided the only way it can possibly win is by mounting an intensely negative smear effort for the next month."

 

I was quoting from the WaPo article that was linked to (in response to your post) before you re-asserted that you believed the reports to be all speculation.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

deleted by me

 

too emotional

Edited October 6, 2008 by Pam "SFSOM" in TN

[Spy Car]

Which media are you referring to here? That seems to me to be very insider information -- if it were true -- to which we, the average citizen, would not be privy to. Or it's speculation and opinion. I've heard nothing about it. Anywhere.

 

Karl Rove was talking about it today on Fox News Sunday so it's hardly a "secret".

 

Bill

[hornblower]

The HOMELAND. How I hate that freakin' word. When did we ever call it The Homeland before we started invading countries on flimsy "intelligence," waterboarding suspects, rendition flights, no-fly lists with dissident citizens -- CITIZENS -- on it who dared question the government, the suspension of habeus corpus, and now the repeal of posse comitatus? Let's rally round the Fatherla... I mean The Homeland.

 

Carp. Stinking, disemboweled CARP. What are we leaving for our kids? Where did my country go? And did I sleep through this? I must have.

 

ETA: I'm angry and sad, but not angry at YOU, nmoira.

 

I am ridiculously cheered to see someone is angry about this. There's still hope if people can see what's happening & be angry enough about it.

[LilyK]

The part of it (as I understand it) that is being pointed to as alluding to racism is the part where she talks about how he doesn't see America like "the rest of us" see America

 

 

I also believe that Senator Obama does not see America "like the rest of us." It has absolutely nothing to do with his color, so I will give Governor Palin the benefit of the doubt, that she was not referring to his color either. Unlike that AP writer, I am not looking for racism in every statement or action, unless it is warranted. Unless you guys want to turn this into an anti-Obama vs. pro-Obama thread, I won't go into dirty details, but my reasons have to do with his attitudes and statements regarding terrorism, the economy, his tremendous popularity in countries that are not our allies, even his refusal to wear the American flag pin. You guys may find that petty, but I find it significant that this is the hill that he chooses to make a stand on. When he thinks life begins, that is above his paygrade, but refusing to wear the American flag, he is doggone certain about that.

 

You can agree or disagree with my opinions on Sen. Obama, but I assure you that none of them have anything to do with race. I don't think that Palin was referring to race either, because she was speaking in Carson, California. There was a much higher percentage of African-Americans in her audience than in her average rally. It doesn't make sense that she would say "not one of us" in that forum if she were referring to race. Especially since there was nothing else in her speech to indicate such an attitude or intent.

 

I believe that this AP writer was simply trying to foment racial tension.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

... even his refusal to wear the American flag pin. You guys may find that petty, but I find it significant that this is the hill that he chooses to make a stand on. When he thinks life begins, that is above his paygrade, but refusing to wear the American flag, he is doggone certain about that.

 

 

 

I find it amazing that you think this is true. So I'm afraid you've lost me in your other assertions.

 

And I'm trying to be kind here and not ugly. But I do find it amazing. Where did you hear this?

 

As for myself, I won't wear the American flag, either. It find it disrespectful (for me). I know that others have a different opinion, and that's ok. I know that I do tend to feel a little sheepish that I won't wear the flag on my person as jewelry when others see it as a test of patriotism. I assure you, I'm plenty patriotic. I don't worship or idolize the flag, but people died under that flag and no, I won't wear a flag like other similar cheap jewelry made in China. The irony also makes me too uncomfortable. Again though, I know other people choose different ways to honor their country and their flag and I respect that.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Pam "SFSOM" in TN

[JudyJudyJudy]

Pam, I totally agree. Obama gave a wonderful explanation for why he doesn't wear a flag lapel pin, but those who want to find fault with him will look for something regardless.

 

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, D-Ill., said he will no longer wear an American flag lapel pin because it has become a substitute for “true patriotism” since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

He commented on the pin in a television interview Wednesday and then again on Thursday at a campaign appearance in Independence, Iowa.

“My attitude is that I’m less concerned about what you’re wearing on your lapel than what’s in your heart," he told the campaign crowd Thursday. "You show your patriotism by how you treat your fellow Americans, especially those who serve. You show your patriotism by being true to our values and ideals. That’s what we have to lead with is our values and our ideals.”

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21138728/

[nmoira]

 

his tremendous popularity in countries that are not our allies

I'll bite. Which countries are you referring to specifically? Please don't say Spain. :lol:

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam, I totally agree. Obama gave a wonderful explanation for why he doesn't wear a flag lapel pin, but those who want to find fault with him will look for something regardless.

 

 

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21138728/

 

Hmm. I never knew he didn't. I agree with and respect that view, as it certainly reflects my own. But I've seen pictures of him many, MANY times wearing a flag pin. He wore a pin to the recent debate. He wore a flag pin on his overseas trip in every pic with a foreign leader I can find of him.

 

??

 

Anyway, it's hard to describe why I think one's true faith or one's true patriotism or one's true character isn't something one parades or wears or slaps on their car bumper. It's who you are and what you do. If a cross or a flag pin or a bumper sticker helps you remember what you stand for and is a "witness" for you, that's great. But I think it HAS to be deeper than that.

[LilyK]

I'll bite. Which countries are you referring to specifically? Please don't say Spain. :lol:

__________________

 

 

Will Russia and Venezuela do? Check out the map.

http://www.theworldwantsobama.org/

 

Hmm. I never knew he didn't. I agree with and respect that view, as it certainly reflects my own. But I've seen pictures of him many, MANY times wearing a flag pin. He wore a pin to the recent debate. He wore a flag pin on his overseas trip in every pic with a foreign leader I can find of him.

 

??

 

Anyway, it's hard to describe why I think one's true faith or one's true patriotism or one's true character isn't something one parades or wears or slaps on their car bumper. It's who you are and what you do. If a cross or a flag pin or a bumper sticker helps you remember what you stand for and is a "witness" for you, that's great. But I think it HAS to be deeper than that.

__________________

 

 

His wearing of the flag pin is a reversal of his previous stance. As another poster pointed out, he gave a firm explanation near the beginning of his campaign as to why he wouldn't wear one. You and he believe that it is not true patriotism. I believe that it is significant that of all the places to make a stand, he chose to make a stand against symbols of patriotism. Whether or not you agree with me on this point was not the issue (sigh) I thought I made that clear. My point was that my not considering Obama as "one of us" had nothing to do with his race, and I believe that Palin's "not one of us " comment had nothing to do with race either. That was my sole purpose in posting my "assertions."

[Jumping In Puddles]

There is a world of difference between Obama, a black man, running and losing for President of the United States and Rodney King.

 

Rodney King was seen on video tape being pulled from his taxi cab after being chased for speeding, and being beaten and tasered by 4 LA PD with 6 LA police standing by.

 

This incident made for some serious tension and anger in this neighborhood over police brutality, poverty and racism. The 4 officers were tried by jury for excessive force and acquitted. The jury of his peers consisted of 10 whites, 1 asian, 1 hispanic.

 

The announcement of the acquittals sparked the 1992 Los Angeles riots because of all this anger and tension in this neighborhood.

 

The Presidential Race is something very different, this is not a race against black and white as the Rodney King issue WAS 100% A RACIAL ISSUE. This is a race against 2 people with very different ideas and to say this is about skin color and the black people versus the white people and the black people in the urban areas will riot "just like they did for Rodney King!" is pure fear mongering, plain and simple.

 

The subtle racism in this allegation makes me sick to my stomach. Literally, I'm nauseous.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Jumping In Puddles

[nmoira]

__________________

 

 

Will Russia and Venezuela do? Check out the map.

http://www.theworldwantsobama.org/

 

 

And Europe and Canada, and Middle and South Americas, and, well, everywhere. Interesting how you pick out only 2. There is no red on that map at all.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

__________________

 

 

Will Russia and Venezuela do? Check out the map.

http://www.theworldwantsobama.org/

 

???

 

And Israel and England? Japan, Ireland? South Korea, Canada, Mexico? That site says the USA herself if 80% Obama.

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

His wearing of the flag pin is a reversal of his previous stance. As another poster pointed out, he gave a firm explanation near the beginning of his campaign as to why he wouldn't wear one. You and he believe that it is not true patriotism. I believe that it is significant that of all the places to make a stand, he chose to make a stand against symbols of patriotism. Whether or not you agree with me on this point was not the issue (sigh) I thought I made that clear. My point was that my not considering Obama as "one of us" had nothing to do with his race, and I believe that Palin's "not one of us " comment had nothing to do with race either. That was my sole purpose in posting my "assertions."

 

I wish he had stuck it out, but I understand his need to find a middle ground. It truly isn't a hill worth dying on. The principle of giving a brother offense over a minor issue comes into play here, so I get it that he wears a flag pin.

 

Do you believe that wearing a symbol of patriotism is true patriotism?

 

I thought I understood you, and I know my agreement isn't the issue. But I think you're annoyed with me and I'm not sure what I'm missing. Surely you don't think wearing a flag pin means someone's a true patriot. :confused: The Amish don't wear crosses or have them in their meeting houses, but no one accuses them of not being true Christians because they don't wear crosses on their lapels.

 

I accept that the AP writer injected his own interpretation into her remarks. I'm scratching my head, myself, wondering where that interpretation came from. Not a mountain out of a molehill, that was a mountain out of... well, nothing. But MY point (and I trade you sigh for sigh) is that THIS remark is what the ones who are up in arms about what she said are howling about and NOT about the Ayers remark. (As was pointed out, Ayers is not exactly black.)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

And Europe and Canada, and Middle and South Americas, and, well, everywhere. Interesting how you pick out only 2. There is no red on that map at all.

 

You have to go here to see the breakdown country by country.

[LilyK]

And Europe and Canada, and Middle and South Americas, and, well, everywhere. Interesting how you pick out only 2. There is no red on that map at all.

 

Maybe this will clarify.

I stated that I was uncomfortable with his popularity in countries that are not our allies. I never stated that I was uncomfortable with his popularity in countries that were.

 

Then you asked for me to specifically name those countries. Remember the ones that are not our allies?

 

Threfore, I listed Venezuela and Russia. In order to be "helpful" as I stated in my post, because you seemed genuinely curious, I also posted a link that showed a complete world map.

 

Is it still really that interesting how I only picked two and did not mention our allies, since my post that you were inquiring about specifically mentioned those countries who are not our allies?

 

Sorry,I'm not trying to be nasty. I am just being hyper-clear because I am getting a little tired of people missing the point of my posts.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

The Presidential Race is something very different, this is not a race against black and white as the Rodney King issue WAS 100% A RACIAL ISSUE. This is a race against 2 people with very different ideas and to say this is about skin color and the black people versus the white people and the black people in the urban areas will riot "just like they did for Rodney King!" is pure fear mongering, plain and simple.

 

The subtle racism in this allegation makes me sick to my stomach. Literally, I'm nauseous.

 

But again (and not to belabor the point :D) it's one thing if her MIL is worried about this because she thought of it and is concerned. It's another if someone is playing around with these ideas to stir up strife by forwarding chain emails or whatnot. To what purpose, it's not clear. It makes no sense.

 

Unless to set up the "need" for military force? Nah. That's too absolutely crazy.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Maybe this will clarify.

I stated that I was uncomfortable with his popularity in countries that are not our allies. I never stated that I was uncomfortable with his popularity in countries that were.

 

Then you asked for me to specifically name those countries. Remember the ones that are not our allies?

 

Threfore, I listed Venezuela and Russia. In order to be "helpful" as I stated in my post, because you seemed genuinely curious, I also posted a link that showed a complete world map.

 

Is it still really that interesting how I only picked two and did not mention our allies, since my post that you were inquiring about specifically mentioned those countries who are not our allies?

 

Sorry,I'm not trying to be nasty. I am just being hyper-clear because I am getting a little tired of people missing the point of my posts.

 

Well, see, my problem is -- how is it not good that people who are not our allies are seeing good in Sen. Obama, but ok that people who *are* our allies are also seeing good in him?

 

I'm reading all of the words in your posts, but I'm not following all of your logic. I know it is there, but I'm not following you. That's why I keep asking for clarification.

[nmoira]

Sorry,I'm not trying to be nasty. I am just being hyper-clear because I am getting a little tired of people missing the point of my posts.

I'm sorry... but I had a good laugh when I saw the map. And I do think it's relevant that most of the world was blue. But... and this is a big but... this is an online poll. Not a poll of world leaders. Not a poll with any reliable methodology. An online poll.

[LilyK]

But I think you're annoyed with me and I'm not sure what I'm

 

I am sorry if I came off that way. I do get a little annoyed when I make an effort to be clear, but feel that I am misunderstood, but it has nothing to do with you personally.

 

As to your question about true patriotism. If we are cynical, of course we can assume that people wearing flag pins do not truly love their country. But I usually give the person the benefit of the doubt. Does a flag pin equal patriotism? Of course not. Is it a symbol of patriotism that can be a unifying element? My opinion is yes. However, I respect you , and I respect your opinion on this matter.. But if you were running for President and you refused to wear one, once again, I would ask myself, "Why?" This person wants to be the face of America. The symbol of America that all the world will identify with, yet she refuses to wear this traditional symbol of love of country? Why?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I'm sorry... but I had a good laugh when I saw the map. And I do think it's relevant that most of the world was blue. But... and this is a big but... this is an online poll. Not a poll of world leaders. Not a poll with any reliable methodology. An online poll.

 

It IS an online poll, but it's a poll of readers (at least online) of the Economist. So it does have a smart base. A fairly skewed one, but. Not reliable, nor accurate. But... interesting, no?

[LilyK]

Well, see, my problem is -- how is it not good that people who are not our allies are seeing good in Sen. Obama, but ok that people who *are* our allies are also seeing good in him?

 

I'm reading all of the words in your posts, but I'm not following all of your logic. I know it is there, but I'm not following you. That's why I keep asking for clarification.

 

Because our enemies have different agendas from our allies. Our allies, like Europe and China, are veering away from or have rejected capitalism and are embracing socialist ideals. Obama is definitely more in line with their ideals. That make perfect sense to me that they would support him and I do not begrudge him that support. Plus he is just a very likable guy.

 

As far as our enemies are concerned, my reasoning is that they are less interested in our social progress or lack thereof. Their interest is in seeing an enemy become weaker. Therefore, I am uncomfortable with seeing his popularity in these countries.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

If we are cynical, of course we can assume that people wearing flag pins do not truly love their country. But I usually give the person the benefit of the doubt. Does a flag pin equal patriotism? Of course not. Is it a symbol of patriotism that can be a unifying element? My opinion is yes. However, I respect you , and I respect your opinion on this matter.. But if you were running for President and you refused to wear one, once again, I would ask myself, "Why?" This person wants to be the face of America. The symbol of America that all the world will identify with, yet she refuses to wear this traditional symbol of love of country? Why?

 

I would say that I might think a *few* people who are wearing flag pins (probably a tiny few) might not be patriotic, might not love their country. But I would also posit that few (a tiny few) people who are *not* wearing a flag pin do not truly love their country. I don't think the two things are related.

 

Unifying element? Hmm. I like that. I like unity, particularly in patriotism. But do you agree it cannot be a litmus test? I can't look at Jane and say, "Wow, she's not wearing the pin. I need to think long and hard as to whether or not she loves her country." How can I judge her over a symbol?

 

I think Barack Obama answered the question "why." I hope I would answer you just as precisely and carefully as he if it were me.

 

And if I had to compromise to not offend my fellow Americans, I hope I would find a manufacturer of flag pins that still operated in the USA.

[LilyK]

But do you agree it cannot be a litmus test

As I stated in my post, does it equal patriotism? Of course not. I don't think that anything that I had said makes me question "Jane's" patriotism if she does not wear one. But if Jane were a Presidential candidate and publicly stated that she refuses, then I would raise an eyebrow.

 

I

think Barack Obama answered the question "why." I hope I would answer you just as precisely and carefully as he if it were me

.

Now here, I have to say, I was thoroughly dissatisfied with his answer. Should it equal and replace true patriotism? Of course not. But why is it a bad thing to the point where he refused to wear one? It seemed pompous and disrespectful of him to say that. Do Hillary Clinton and John McCain display empty patriotism by wearing one? So again, I would ask, Why? It is a symbol. Not a symbol of evil, a symbol of love of country. Why does he treat it like it symbolizes something bad? But this conversation has gone one for a ridiculous length of time considering the fact that you informed us that he now wears one. In that case, he either gave in to political heat, or he reconsidered his position. I hope it was the latter.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

But this conversation has gone one for a ridiculous length of time considering the fact that you informed us that he now wears one.

 

Sorry.

[LilyK]

Sorry.

And I am sorry for the copious amount of typos in my posts.

Good night. You are a pleasure to clash swords with, Pam sfsom.

[Laura Corin]

Our allies, like Europe and China, are veering away from or have rejected capitalism and are embracing socialist ideals.

 

The Labour Party (currently in power in the UK) has moved a very long way to the right since my childhood. All the concerns here are about how conservative it is.

 

And.... China? China "[has] rejected capitalism and [is] embracing socialist ideals"? I rather think that, in my observation over twenty years of visiting the country, the movement has been in the other direction. Now, you could go back to the warlordism of the early twentieth century to find a more capitalist atmosphere in China if you liked, but most people's memories don't stretch that far....

 

Laura

[JudyJudyJudy]

I'm sorry... but I had a good laugh when I saw the map. And I do think it's relevant that most of the world was blue.

Most people I know both IRL and online who live in other countries, whether they are our allies or not, hope Obama wins. It doesn't mean that he runs with terrorists. It simply means that they want change here as well. Bush has been bad for our relations with other countries.

 

As far as blue maps go, this map is getting bluer, too! :D

 

http://www.electionprojection.com/president08.shtml

[Danestress]

Right. Speculation and opinion. (IMHO!)

 

Speculation and opinion by former Republican strategists and party insiders. It's been all over the talk news.

[kokotg]

As far as our enemies are concerned, my reasoning is that they are less interested in our social progress or lack thereof. Their interest is in seeing an enemy become weaker. Therefore, I am uncomfortable with seeing his popularity in these countries.

 

I'm afraid I'm not following your logic here, either. Given that all except for 3 countries on that map are blue, couldn't one just as easily argue that it's problematic that nearly all of our ALLIES are against a John McCain presidency? Wouldn't they be interested in seeing a stronger America, and therefore, by your reasoning, think John McCain would bring about a weaker one? Certainly Israel has a great stake in maintaining a strong America, yet they strongly support Obama on that map.

 

Similarly, if you want to use Obama's lack of a flag pin as evidence that he's not like other Americans, then you'll need to apply the same criticism to McCain, as he wears one infrequently as well. In fact, he wasn't wearing one in the first debate (Obama was).

[kokotg]

err, I see this went back and forth for a long time already...sorry if I'm beating a dead horse--I was in bed when you all were doing this last night!

[Margaret in GA]

Some people feel that riots are a possibility because of the way that the results of the election are being framed. Some in the mainstream media are pushing the idea that if Obama loses it is only because of white racism and not because of his ideology, positions, experience, or associates. These words and ideas have consequences, too. If someone buys into that idea they are definitely going to be angry if he doesn't win. And some folks might look to take out that frustration. I think that is what the original poster's MIL is referring to. I seriously doubt she thinks that minorities shouldn't run for office because it is too destabilizing.

 

In my opinion, the media is largely ignoring the race issue. My sister and her husband are very clear: they will not vote for a black man. They are democrats, by the way , who voted for Clinton in the primaries. I am so tired of people saying that race is not an issue. It is.

 

As for riots, I don't think so. Protests, yes. Riots, no.

 

margaret

[LilyK]

And.... China? China "[has] rejected capitalism and [is] embracing socialist ideals"? I rather think that, in my observation over twenty years of visiting the country, the movement has been in the other direction.on.

 

 

China is definitely an interesting hybrid. But they would like to see the US move toward a more regulated, controlled economy . Therefore, like I stated earlier, they have an interest in seeing Obama become President.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/world/asia/17china.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Laura R (FL)]

Hmm...You guys have all the good conversations while I'm sleeping!

 

I have heard (but not read the whole editorial) of columns written in big city newspapers that speak of potential riots if Obama isn't elected. This is not campaigning on Obama or McCain's side, but editorialists' comments. The comments made are that if the election is close and Obama loses, it will be because of race and King-like riots could occur.

 

Sadly, sometimes it is a race issue, but not always. I am not voting for Obama because I don't agree with his political views. Personally, I applaud an African American man reaching this level of political achievement. I definitely think we could have an AA president. Unfortunately, I have family in the deep south that disagree and will not vote for him because of his race. I also think he and Hillary would be HUGE assasination targets if either were elected president (McCain also, but on a smaller scale and for different reasons).

 

Yes, I believe that riots have the potential to break out if Obama loses (maybe even if he wins). This is a heavily charged election and it is a strong issue of race for all kinds of people. If I remember correctly, didn't small scale riots break out over the first OJ trial?

[dawn of ns]

Yes, I believe that riots have the potential to break out if Obama loses (maybe even if he wins). This is a heavily charged election and it is a strong issue of race for all kinds of people. If I remember correctly, didn't small scale riots break out over the first OJ trial?

 

What does the OJ trial and Obama running for President have in common other then the colour of the main characters? Just because the main players are black we're going to see riots?

[Mama Lynx]

Stephanie, I say this because media reports over the weekend suggest the McCain campaign has decided the only way it can possibly win is by mounting an intensely negative smear effort for the next month.

 

Sarah Palin has already started in with the smear-by-association tactics, and McCain's campaign is run by the same people who smeared him [McCain] in 2000.

 

I highly doubt anyone is going to be scared into voting for Obama out of the fear blacks will riot if he loses. This just does seem plausible to me.

 

Rather, I'm afraid, every old racial fear is going to be exploited to attempt to turn around a campaign that appears headed for defeat.

 

Bill

 

But, someone in this thread has already heard of people saying they are switching their votes because of rioting, yes? That's what I was responding to originally. I'd go back up the thread to check myself, but the kids have stolen my mouse and scrolling is difficult.

 

My point was based on that post, though. There is apparently anecdotal evidence of it already. And let's think ... if you are pushed to fear race riots if Obama isn't elected ... are you telling me there aren't people who would be so afraid of the idea of riots that they run to vote Obama to keep the peace? Oh, there are people who would react just that way to the fear. I'm pretty sure I'm related to some.

 

Yes, McCain has clearly stated that he's all about the negative now. That's hardly unexpected, and Obama's already been running negative ads (or at least, making negative ads appear in my mailbox). But this particular tactic I just don't think is one that would work at all, for either camp. You may think that such rumors would not scare people into voting for Obama; I don't think such rumors would drive people into McCain's arms. I think that's just as preposterous as you think the former idea is.

[Spy Car]

But, someone in this thread has already heard of people saying they are switching their votes because of rioting, yes? That's what I was responding to originally. I'd go back up the thread to check myself, but the kids have stolen my mouse and scrolling is difficult.

 

I believe someone did say that. Do you believe it? I don't.

 

Sounds to me like the kind of talk that goes way back.

 

My point was based on that post, though. There is apparently anecdotal evidence of it already. And let's think ... if you are pushed to fear race riots if Obama isn't elected ... are you telling me there aren't people who would be so afraid of the idea of riots that they run to vote Obama to keep the peace? Oh, there are people who would react just that way to the fear. I'm pretty sure I'm related to some.

 

Hard for me to imagine folks changing their vote because the [insert epitaph here] are going to riot. Now if I was told these scared folks were oiling up their shot-guns, and laying in ammo, that I'd believe :D

 

Yes, McCain has clearly stated that he's all about the negative now. That's hardly unexpected, and Obama's already been running negative ads (or at least, making negative ads appear in my mailbox). But this particular tactic I just don't think is one that would work at all, for either camp. You may think that such rumors would not scare people into voting for Obama; I don't think such rumors would drive people into McCain's arms. I think that's just as preposterous as you think the former idea is.

 

We just see it other-wise. I think McCain's last desperate (and dishonorable tactic) will be to play on the fears and slander Obama as a terrorist-loving anti-American scary black-man. And by appealing to the very worst aspects in human nature.

 

We'll see what happens tonight, should be interesting.

 

Bill

[Laura Corin]

China is definitely an interesting hybrid. But they would like to see the US move toward a more regulated, controlled economy . Therefore, like I stated earlier, they have an interest in seeing Obama become President.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/world/asia/17china.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

 

- China has profited mightily from US free-market strategies over the last years. All those Chinese toys would not be in the shops if the US had erected trade barriers.

 

- After years of being lectured for regulated policies, China is currently feeling understandably smug. That's not quite the same as wishing that the US would become more regulated, for the above reason. From the article you quote:

 

'Chinese officials are expressing their disdain in forums around the world. Last month, Liu Mingkang, the chairman of the China Banking Regulatory Commission, delivered a lecture at the British Museum in London in which he blamed the American government for the subprime mortgage crisis that came close to freezing Western debt markets and required extensive intervention by the Federal Reserve. The turmoil, he said, was “counteracting the course of global civilization.â€'

 

- Despite his previous anti-regulation stance, McCain is hardly laissez-faire these days.

 

- China might have reason to be concerned about a new administration's attitude to China's empire-building in Africa. I have no information on the two candidates' attitudes on this point, but I would not pick Obama as the less likely to want to intervene.

 

- Your original point does not stand: China has not rejected capitalism and embraced socialist ideals. Instead, it is continuing a nuanced move away from socialist aims and towards capitalism.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[LilyK]

Laura in China wrote:

China is currently feeling understandably smug. That's not quite the same as wishing that the US would become more regulated, for the above reason. From the article you quote:

 

 

 

 

Senior Chinese officials are publicly and loudly rebuking the Americans on their handling of the economy and defending their own more assertive style of regulation.

 

 

This is a quote from the same article. It seems to me that they would like to see more regulation in the US.

They are definitely long past the days of Mao, but they are no free market economy. If they were, I would never say that they would want the US to lean more socialist, Buy it is based on articles like these that I see all the time, that I believe that China is less Adam Smith and more Mao.

 

http://virtuallyblind.com/2008/01/17/china-regulates-foreign-game-companies/

 

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1948

 

http://www.massively.com/2008/08/29/chinese-government-to-step-up-regulations-on-unhealthy-online/

 

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119921699/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

[Kris]

I believe someone did say that. Do you believe it? I don't.

 

I'm the one that posted that. And I doubt my Sweetie would pick this occasion to lie to me for the first time.

 

Whether the people who told him they were going to *do* that were telling the truth, I have no idea. I certainly would hope that people would have more backbone than that -- but I'm afraid I'm not that optimistic.

[Apiphobic]

Totally OT, but every time I scroll by this title I start thinking of that song

.

 

I never liked that song. :glare:

[Spy Car]

I'm the one that posted that. And I doubt my Sweetie would pick this occasion to lie to me for the first time.

 

Whether the people who told him they were going to *do* that were telling the truth, I have no idea. I certainly would hope that people would have more backbone than that -- but I'm afraid I'm not that optimistic.

 

I hope I caused no offense Kris, I'd lost the context and I wouldn't want to imply that you or Sweetie were less than fully sincere. I'm sorry.

 

Bill

[Kris]

I hope I caused no offense Kris, I'd lost the context and I wouldn't want to imply that you or Sweetie were less than fully sincere. I'm sorry.

 

Bill

 

Thanks, Bill -- that's really nice of you. I went back and re-read your post and I should have taken it another way -- i.e., yes, it *is* hard to believe -- because I had a hard time believing it myself! I'm just having the worst time the past few weeks, and should probably put my fingers in a vice or something. :001_smile:

 

I'm getting pretty beat up on another board -- yeah, imagine that ;) -- and I think I'm letting it bleed over here. I'm sorry I was so defensive.

[Stacy in NJ]

My MIL lives in a large, diverse city. She is concerned that if Obama doesn't win the election there will be riots similar to after the Rodney King verdict. I told her I thought she was being overly concerned and racist. She thinks I'm being naive and "too midwestern". Are people in cities concerned?

 

The only riots I'm anticipating would happen in Hollywood. All those movie stars would be furious if Obama lost!:D

[Moxie]

Maybe my MIL is onto something. James Carvill seems concerned.

 

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/07/acd.02.html

[kokotg]

Carville says a lot of things :). But in context, that quote is about what will happen if the polls stay where they are (with Obama up by a wide margin) and the election is called for McCain. I think the suggestion about the anger that would provoke has nothing whatsoever to do with Obama's race and everything to do with what happened in 2000.

[Spy Car]

Thanks, Bill -- that's really nice of you. I went back and re-read your post and I should have taken it another way -- i.e., yes, it *is* hard to believe -- because I had a hard time believing it myself! I'm just having the worst time the past few weeks, and should probably put my fingers in a vice or something. :001_smile:

 

I'm getting pretty beat up on another board -- yeah, imagine that ;) -- and I think I'm letting it bleed over here. I'm sorry I was so defensive.

 

Kris, It is I that am at fault for being lazy and not digging back through the thread. Had I, I would have posted "differently". I trust you know I didn't mean to carelessly hurt your feelings, and am sorry I did. I am glad you mentioned it so I had the chance to apologize.

 

I'm sorry you've been beaten up elsewhere, how about a :grouphug:

 

Bill

[Kris]

Kris, It is I that am at fault for being lazy and not digging back through the thread. Had I, I would have posted "differently". I trust you know I didn't mean to carelessly hurt your feelings, and am sorry I did. I am glad you mentioned it so I had the chance to apologize.

 

I absolutely do know that and I really appreciate your thoughtfulness, though there is certainly no apology necessary. I overreacted, and that's definitely not your fault!

 

I'm sorry you've been beaten up elsewhere, how about a :grouphug:

 

Bill

 

Since you're being so nice, can I get a little cheese to go with all this whine? :lol:

 

Thanks, Bill -- you rock.