s/o "sense of entitlement"

[Farrar]

Actually, I do. Babies and toddlers obviously cannot help out their families, but preschoolers and up can. Obviously a 3 y.o. has to have very simple chores, but they can do things like putting the silverware on the table or taking dirty clothes out of the hamper and throwing them into the washing machine. Parents should teach their children responsibility and a work ethic.

 

But would you deny a preschooler who was refusing to work despite a parent valiantly trying to impart a work ethic basic shelter and food? I really doubt it. I think the point some of us are making is that these things are separate for us. Yes, people should work. But also, completely separately, yes, people should live at a minimum standard of care. 

[SKL]

I am not advocating the idea that people should not be responsible. I am advocating collective responsibility. Part of why our infrastructure is in such poor shape is the mentality that government is good for nothing, lowering taxes is the most virtuous thing a politician can do, and the benefit is to those at the top who line their pockets. Infrastructure maintenance is a collective responsibility. It is the "every man for himself" mentality that leads to its crumbling. We would not have gotten to where we are today if that mentality had persisted throughout the 20th century.

 

Economics is not a zero sum game.

 

As I said before, the entitlement should be for things like basic health care, food, and shelter. Add functioning infrastructure to the list. Things like clean drinking water, roads, and bridges are part of the same package.

 

People are still going to largely feel like they have to work, because most people want more than the minimum in life.

 

I never said it was okay for an American to feel "entitled" but not people in most other countries. Frankly, most countries do a better job than the U.S. in at least some areas, even when they are poorer. On a global stage, there should also be a push to secure the floor beneath people.  

 

No, I, an able-bodied person, do not feel like I am entitled to infrastructure just because I exist.  I believe it is my duty to work to contribute my share for the things I use and for the well-being of people who cannot contribute.  I do not believe it's my duty (regardless of my income) to contribute to the well-being of people who WILL NOT contribute because they are entitled.

 

Do I still voluntarily help people who make sucky choices?  Yes, because I have compassion.  But I still think those people have a duty which they have shirked.  I don't like their attitude one bit, but that doesn't mean I'm cool with letting them starve to death.  I can say that because I have means to help people above and beyond my "duty," but most people aren't flush with cash in the USA or anywhere else.

 

It isn't true that most countries do a better job than the US in making sure nobody is in serious need.  Maybe in theory, if you assume all their laws and platitudes translate into material reality, but they don't.  But that's a different topic.  I was only saying I don't agree you are entitled to a different level of selfishness if you are born in a rich country.

[Ravin]

No, I, an able-bodied person, do not feel like I am entitled to infrastructure just because I exist.  I believe it is my duty to work to contribute my share for the things I use and for the well-being of people who cannot contribute.  I do not believe it's my duty (regardless of my income) to contribute to the well-being of people who WILL NOT contribute because they are entitled.

 

Do I still voluntarily help people who make sucky choices?  Yes, because I have compassion.  But I still think those people have a duty which they have shirked.  I don't like their attitude one bit, but that doesn't mean I'm cool with letting them starve to death.  I can say that because I have means to help people above and beyond my "duty," but most people aren't flush with cash in the USA or anywhere else.

 

It isn't true that most countries do a better job than the US in making sure nobody is in serious need.  Maybe in theory, if you assume all their laws and platitudes translate into material reality, but they don't.  But that's a different topic.  I was only saying I don't agree you are entitled to a different level of selfishness if you are born in a rich country.

 

 

I'm talking about acknowledging collective responsibility, and you're talking about selfishness. I think we're talking past each other a bit. 

I didn't say most countries do a better job than the US across the board, but most do better in something or other. Of course, inequality measures for things like health are strongly tied to wealth.

 

 

And we are the 4th most inequal country, in terms of income, on the globe.

 

The "people" who are the worst about not contributing to society because they are entitled are corporations. Their very purpose is greed and profit. The have-nots, for the most part, do not suffer from an excessive share of selfishness compared to everyone else. 

[SKL]

I'm talking about acknowledging collective responsibility, and you're talking about selfishness. I think we're talking past each other a bit. 

I didn't say most countries do a better job than the US across the board, but most do better in something or other. Of course, inequality measures for things like health are strongly tied to wealth.

 

 

And we are the 4th most inequal country, in terms of income, on the globe.

 

The "people" who are the worst about not contributing to society because they are entitled are corporations. Their very purpose is greed and profit. The have-nots, for the most part, do not suffer from an excessive share of selfishness compared to everyone else. 

 

I don't think we were talking about inequality, but I guess you are of the opinion that entitlement relates to inequality.  Maybe it does.  Recent immigrants from supposedly less unequal countries have consistently expressed surprise / shock at the entitlement they see in the USA for social programs, among people who are decidedly not starving and in a community where basic needs can be met with a modest amount of work.

[Bluegoat]

It's bad or good or neutral depending on context.

 

I'm entitled to face my accuser in court.  Well, yeah, not only by law, but there is really a deeper justice behind that idea.

 

I'm entitled to my pension - because you worked for it and it was part of your contract.

 

I'm entitled to whatever social programs my country has according to the rules from health care to guaranteed minimum income - yes, because it has been decided to offer them for good reasons, even beyond the advantages to individuals, and the system is meant to work that way.

 

I'm entitled to better health care because I'm rich, I'm entitled to be served first because I'm white or a citizen, I'm entitled to that resource whatever the consequences to others - not so much.

[Ausmumof3]

What if we talk about business entitlement? Businesses that think they are entitled to employ others at less than the cost of their survival. Businesses that can't make a profit unless the workers they pay are given a top up from taxes. Because if they aren't the workers will actually die because they don't have the necessities of life.

 

The child analogy is an interesting one. Because I know mums and dads that think they're entitled to a glass of wine or a block of chocolate at the end of the day. That's totally fine. But what about when dad thinks he's entitled to his wind down with the beer or the wine because he's earned it even when the kids are going hungry? This happens sometimes too. Not with most decent human beings thankfully.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Ausmumof3

[SKL]

The child analogy is an interesting one. Because I know mums and dads that think they're entitled to a glass of wine or a block of chocolate at the end of the day. That's totally fine. But what about when dad thinks he's entitled to his wind down with the beer or the wine because he's earned it even when the kids are going hungry? This happens sometimes too. Not with most decent human beings thankfully.

 

Yeah, and there are actual people (and, I'm told, communities) that believe a man is entitled to sexually use the young females in his household.  (Hopefully this is dying out, but I know people who were children of such men.)  Entitlement can be a scary concept.

 

I've seen where people opt out of working full time because it would mean they would stop getting certain entitlements.  I mean they are able-bodied, childless adults, they have the job, the employer offers the hours, they say no, because free stuff.  Because they work part-time (by choice) they are not paying taxes.  Obviously other people who do work full-time are paying for these entitlements, which said full-time workers don't qualify for.  Yeah, that makes me uncomfortable.

[Ausmumof3]

Yeah, and there are actual people (and, I'm told, communities) that believe a man is entitled to sexually use the young females in his household. (Hopefully this is dying out, but I know people who were children of such men.) Entitlement can be a scary concept.

 

I've seen where people opt out of working full time because it would mean they would stop getting certain entitlements. I mean they are able-bodied, childless adults, they have the job, the employer offers the hours, they say no, because free stuff. Because they work part-time (by choice) they are not paying taxes. Obviously other people who do work full-time are paying for these entitlements, which said full-time workers don't qualify for. Yeah, that makes me uncomfortable.

I do know people on both sides of the spectrum. After our fire there were neighbours who lost a house that they didn't even live in and took everything offered by any charity etc. apparently they believe that because they are Christian they should get whatever they can from the unbelievers so it can be used for the other Christians. This is so weird to me. Yet there are others who lost their house that everything anyone has done for them has been repaid in whatever way they can. I do know people who are all about the benefits. But mostly they are few and far between. Most people want to work and contribute what they can.

 

However is entitlement as a term inherently bad? - of course not. There are lots of entitlements we all agree are good. We're entitled to be paid in a timely manner by those we do work for.

 

So much comes down to attitude too. I have friends who had to use gov benefits due to injury and they constantly talk about how blessed they are to live in a country that gives them so much, and are working hard to get back to an earning situation. I am just really glad that our country has the safety net it does. For some of the other families I do think they use the safety net beyond what it was meant for but they also have long term health and maybe mental issues that make things really hard for them so you try not to judge.

 

I don't think it's a useful term for politics though. I mean the lords in serfdom thought they were perfectly entitled to all the benefits they had and that the tenants who poached or whatever were terrible even if they were only doing it to feed their starving kids. Just because we are entitled to something legally doesn't mean it's just or morally or ethically right. Sometimes systems become inherently unjust.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I agree with those who say that the word has become loaded. It's outlived its usefulness, now that one portion of the population slings it at other portions without sufficient research, evidence, or humanity on their part to back it up...

 

I just keep finding instances, in 2016, when I would like to beg all the people to refresh the lexicon. Brush off some old words. Rethink some new ones.

 

If I use the word rights for that which I am entitled to, when I am arrested, it's a little clearer. I am owed something, and I can prove it by the law and not just in the court of public opinion.

 

If I use the word justice for that which my neighbor is entitled to, by virtue of his humanity alone, then the entire conversation shifts from "what he wants" to "what I'm responsible for" and that changes everything.

[Haiku]

Yes, this. People in past generations were okay with starting at the bottom and working their way up. They didn't waltz in the door on day 1 with zero experience and few skills, expecting to be handed a cushy position on a silver platter like many Milennials do. Sorry, kid, you're not a "special snowflake" no matter how many participation trophies you received simply for showing up. :rolleyes:

 

 

Except that in past generations, people could start at the bottom and work their way up. That's not typical anymore. Promotion often is not from within, and the only way to move up is to get more (expensive) education. People are cut out based on lacking credentials, not on lacking knowledge and ability. 

 

Plus the fact that people could afford to live on entry-level wages, which certainly isn't the case today ...

 

I don't think people except cushy silver platters so much as they expect a decent return on the time they put in working.

[wendyroo]

Entitlement is letting your dog crap in my yard.  

 

You know it isn't allowed, you probably even know on some level that it isn't right, you certainly would be pissed if someone dared do it to you, but you don't think any of that applies to you and your dog simply because you are a special snowflake that doesn't particularly like cleaning up dog poop.  Why don't people understand that?  Just because you have chosen to have a dog you don't see why people think it is all your responsibility to clean up after it.  

 

You are pretty sure your right to own a dog (park in the handicap space, pour motor oil down the storm drains, steal books from the library, eat food in the art museum, etc) is protected somewhere in the constitution right up there with free speech and therefore you are entitled to do as you please with no regard to anyone else!!

 

Wendy

[MSNative]

I don't think we were talking about inequality, but I guess you are of the opinion that entitlement relates to inequality.

My pejorative definition of entitied is not talking about inequality. I've seen a lot of entitiled people from well to do families. I've seen entitled people who are high earners. The entitlement mentality in my view has little to do with income. It has everything to do with what you think others OWE you.

[Ravin]

What if we talk about business entitlement? Businesses that think they are entitled to employ others at less than the cost of their survival. Businesses that can't make a profit unless the workers they pay are given a top up from taxes. Because if they aren't the workers will actually die because they don't have the necessities of life.

 

The child analogy is an interesting one. Because I know mums and dads that think they're entitled to a glass of wine or a block of chocolate at the end of the day. That's totally fine. But what about when dad thinks he's entitled to his wind down with the beer or the wine because he's earned it even when the kids are going hungry? This happens sometimes too. Not with most decent human beings thankfully.

 

It was the assertion of the entitlement of children to something better that led to the laws that ended most child labor. That was not a given a century ago. There was a cultural shift to recognition that society as a whole as well as parents owe children a fair shot in life, and not just endless toil and hunger from the time they can walk.

 

The question of entitlement is intertwined with inequality--when the have-nots look at the haves and see no way to get there from where they're at, they're going to be bitter and resentful. And when the haves look down their noses at those who have not benefited from the combination of individual aptitude, hard work, luck, and the hands held out to them by others, because the only part of that they will acknowledge got them there is the hard work, the haves are going to be bitter and resentful.

 

No one human being on Earth can honestly say that their place in the world is theirs because of their own effort alone. We are social creatures. We can work together and make all our lives better, or we can step on each other and make all our lives harder than they have to be. We are all entitled to be part of a society that treats us as human beings, not cogs in a machine, units of labor to be used, or useless inconveniences. That is equally as true at 30, 3 or 93. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by Ravin

[Tanaqui]

Recent immigrants from supposedly less unequal countries have consistently expressed surprise / shock at the entitlement they see in the USA for social programs, among people who are decidedly not starving and in a community where basic needs can be met with a modest amount of work.

 

SKL, can you cite this?

 

[SKL]

SKL, can you cite this?

 

I'm talking about friends I know IRL.  No, I do not have internet citations for what my friends say to me.

[Tanaqui]

I'm talking about friends I know IRL.  No, I do not have internet citations for what my friends say to me.

 

Okay, well, can you give an idea of what countries they came from? If this is a common sentiment for immigrants from those countries, I can probably find evidence of other immigrants from those countries saying those things.

[Danestress]

Maybe we should use, "false sense of entitlement." Even though we will end up arguing about which senses of entitlement are 'false,' at least that would signify that we aren't talking about feeling entitled to something you actually are or maybe entitled to.

[rdj2027]

Feeling entitled and being entitled are two different things.  An entitlement is earned or has been previously agreed upon by the powers that may be.  A veteran earned his/her benefits, we are entitled to certain things under the law but we are not necessarily entitled to things we want even though they may be a great idea (health care, education).  If we want people to be entitled, we need to work towards setting up the framework to which everyone needs to contribute.

[VeteranMom]

We should earn what we get.  Dh coaches 2 youth teams and we are often amazed at what parents want for their kids and what players expect for themselves.  I'm about fed up with people rolling around in all their "special-ness".  Work hard, earn it, and we'll talk about what you're entitled to.