Preschool not having a PC TG

[Chris in VA]

That's Politically Correct Thanksgiving.

 

I've heard for at least 20 years that dressing up in feathered bonnets (made by the kids) and having a "pow wow" around TG is disrespectful to the Native American people. Guess what our preschool does? We even have an "Indian Village," complete with Tipis (TEEPEES), in a special room reserved for larger and more elaborate dramatic play set-ups than we can do in our rooms. I don't mean re-enacting the TG at Plymouth, where the kids would be in costume for a purpose. I also don't mean learning about other cultures by setting up a dramatic play area that is like another culture--in this case, the Plymouth Native Americans didn't even live in tipis!

 

I'm already feeling a little out of sorts about the Halloween stuff we have to do--our class is dressing in Scarecrow hats, and we are NOT using the fingerplays that talk about scarecrows scaring KIDS, fgs (for goodness sake--is that a real acronym or did I just make it up?:D).

 

I'm not terribly adherent to NAEYC policies, but it seems rather blatant to do the "Indian" thing. I remember when the cheapest costume was dressing as a "bum/hobo," and now that's not PC. Not real compassionate, so I'm ok with that. And, after finding out that many Native Americans are offended by being stereotyped as the tipi-dwelling, warbonnet-wearing type, I can understand why we should be more respectful. I remember a Native American Elder saying that each of those feathers represented a noble deed, and he didn't want just anyone going around in a feathered bonnet--it's not dress-up--just like it's not very respectful to dress up in full clergy togs (tho many do).

 

I was just rather stunned to know this info, when the folks at the preschool should really be on top of this. What do you think?

[beansprouts]

I was just rather stunned to know this info, when the folks at the preschool should really be on top of this. What do you think?

 

Honestly? I think anyone who feels threatened by a bunch of four year olds playing dress up has more serious issues to worry about. ;)

[Chris in VA]

How would you feel if they were in blackface?

[Zelda]

I think it can get dodgy. I mean, on the one hand, dressing up in ethnic costumes like a Dutch girl or a in a kimono is fine (I hope, maybe that's changed recently) and I think it can be tricky to know exactly where to draw the line.

 

On the other hand, I can remember clear as day, going to the bathroom to get ready for the school Halloween parade when I was in 4th grade, opening the door and seeing a girl and her mom putting together her hair and make-up for her costume as an Asian girl. I was like, "Oh my gaw, she's being ME for Halloween!" There was an uncomfortable moment between all three of us and then we all went about our business. I never did reconcile how I felt about it or if my feelings were even terribly important since she wasn't being mocking or obviously disrespectful.

 

But, you could at least be historically accurate. And, always better safe than sorry.

[Aubrey]

We just read about the 1st TG in SOTW. I remember how much I loved reading Squanto when I was a kid, though when I reread it for my ed degree, I was shocked out how not PC it was. (Can't remember how exactly--sorry.)

 

Anyway, my point is, coming upon this ch w/ my dc, I've actually been looking forward to the talking/reading/dressing up/what-have-you because I don't have to worry about being PC. Does that make sense? Not that my dc won't learn to value other cultures, etc., just that they don't have to sacrifice being dc to do so.

 

I'm afraid it's not coming out right. Remember the ch in SOTW2 about the Maori? Remember how fun it was to wear blue face paint & be. a. kid? I expect we'll get a bunch of library books, *maybe* some dress-ups, etc. Maybe we'll make tipis. But as we do, we'll read, & we'll talk. At some point, ds7 will say, "Wait. The Wampanoags didn't live in tipis!" And I'll say, "Really? What kinds of houses did they live in?"

 

Then we'll tear down the tipis & build the right kinds of houses. And I think they'll remember the experience more because of it.

 

I know that doesn't speak to the preschool situation. Their ed is more public, so they do have an obligation to be more on top of things. On the one hand, I wish the kids could just dress up & have fun w/ the tipis. Otoh...I'm not a Native Am. If it offends them, that really, truly does matter.

 

In the end, I guess I'd say the dc can have dress-up fun in other ways, but...it does make me nostalgic for actually *being* a kid. Because I didn't know any better, & not worrying about it was nice. Being innocent enough to think that not meaning to offend someone was the same as not offending someone was nice. :001_smile:

[beansprouts]

Being innocent enough to think that not meaning to offend someone was the same as not offending someone was nice. :001_smile:

 

But at what point is it unreasonable to be held hostage to other people's insecurities? At what point do we take responsibility for our own emotions and not expect the rest of the world to censor their words and behavior in order to appease us?

 

I can only be offended if I allow it to happen. My response is MY choice. Sorry, you don't have that kind of power over me. ;)

 

So if anyone wants to dress up like Mrs. Beansprouts, I have plenty of curly headed wigs to go around :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

So if anyone wants to dress up like Mrs. Beansprouts, I have plenty of curly headed wigs to go around :lol:

 

Can you send me one? Is it okay if I sing operah while dancing a jig before I eat dinner if I am dressed as you?:D

[Jenny in Florida]

Honestly? I think anyone who feels threatened by a bunch of four year olds playing dress up has more serious issues to worry about. ;)

 

Honestly? I think that sort of thing is very easy to say when you're safely in the mainstream group and haven't spent your whole life confronting ignorance and stereotypes about your heritage.

 

I don't think it's a matter of feeling threatened, but of feeling insulted, hurt or embarassed.

 

It's funny, because this is an issue I've struggled with quite a bit as a Unitarian-Universalist. One of our guiding principles is that we value and draw wisdom from all the faith traditions of the world. So, in our religious education classes (at least in the good ones), our kids learn about lots of different world religions. There are whole curricula devoted to learning about and "experiencing" the holidays and traditions of various faiths. And, in theory, I think that's great. But I've always been uncomfortable with the "let's play whatever" aspect of these classes. It feels to me like it trivializes the beliefs and cultures of these people, sometimes.

 

On the other hand, I somehow don't have a problem with letting my kids dress up in togas or helping them to mummify fruit. I guess because those cultures are "dead" I don't worry about offending people.

 

But, for me at least, it's difficult to know where to draw the line.

 

Edited to add: I just wanted to say that I did not intend for this to be harsh or critical of anyone in particular. It's just an issue I've been mulling over for some time. I guess I'm still working out the kinks.

[Laurie]

I think it's fair to say that there are two sides to every story!

 

Last year a letter from the Director of Equity, Race, and Learning Support went out to school staff in our district concerning Thanksgiving. This is the website that staff members were given as a resource. (http://www.oyate.org/resources/shortthanks.html)

 

At the public schools I attended Thanksgiving wasn't really a big deal other than some kind of turkey craft project and maybe singing song or two. We certainly never dressed up in any costumes for a play or class party.

 

The first time I saw a "Thanksgiving Feast" in a school was when I was a student teacher in a Kindergarten classroom (public school). They had simple costumes...the headband hat and grocery bag vest variety. Each child brought a piece of fruit from home and they cut up their fruit in class and made a "friendship fruit salad" .

 

The last school where I taught always had a school-wide Thanksgiving food drive and the upper grades made pumpkin pies to take to a homeless shelter. It was a religious school so we also had a special prayer service.

 

I've read the story books, drawn handprint turkeys, etc. with my own dc, but I don't want to perpetuate things that are not historically accurate either. Honestly, though, I think it's hard to know how much detail to go into with the really young ones. (I guess I'd prefer the focus of Thanksgiving to be on giving thanks to God and sharing with others at that age. We were able to do that in a religious school, but I'm not sure that the God part would go over real well in a public school anymore!) There's a book called Giving Thanks (I'll find the author's name...) that I like and it would be good for pre-schoolers in case you're looking for some non-Pilgrimish titles to read to your class.

 

(Author is Jake Swamp)

[Night Elf]

If anything at the preschool bothered me, I'd speak to management. Maybe they just need some fresh new ideas.

 

I work in a preschool. I don't know what we're doing for Thanksgiving yet, but we're having an Octoberfest (or however it's spelled) at the end of the month. We'll have games and snacks, probably more towards healthy than candy. The teachers are dressing up on the 31st. We're restricted to nice, decent costumes, preferably storybook. Apparently one parent got really upset last year when a female teacher was dressed as a police officer. She complained it was provocative. I was planning on going as Dora the Explorer. I wonder what complaint that might get? :)

[Chris in VA]

Didn't mean to sound so snarky--

 

I think it's not the dressing up so much for me as the stereotype, and really mainly using the feathered bonnet--because it truly is a religious symbol and truly is hurtful to others. Maybe I can just ask that we not do that part. But I can see it now--"What? How stupid is THAT? Oh brother (roll eyes), now we have to be "sensitive" to everyone!"

 

I learned a lot when I studied multiculturalism in college--but then I felt my own culture was dragged thru the mud. NAEYC even discourages Christmas celebrations, because kids hear it all the time, and they want to give other religions "time in the sun," too. But I don't particularly want to celebrate other religious celebrations, and it is offensive to me to only focus on the secular (or, what has become secular, for the most part) aspects of the major Christian holidays. It's funny to me, because in an effort to be multicultural, this preschool does Las Posadas for Christmas. There's probably 3 Hispanic kids in the school. (Lots of other cultures, tho.)

 

Anyway, thanks for discussing it with me. And I apologize for getting a little snarky there.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

Honestly? I think that sort of thing is very easy to say when you're safely in the mainstream group and haven't spent your whole life confronting ignorance and stereotypes about your heritage.

 

 

I think you've nailed it. It isn't one small group of 4 year olds (and it isn't 4 yos playing dress up - it's adults orchestrating children) that's the problem. It's a lifetime spent being bombarded with these images that would get old really quickly. And often those images go along with a lower standard of living and a host of other problems. It's a complex and sensitive issue.

[beansprouts]

Can you send me one? Is it okay if I sing operah while dancing a jig before I eat dinner if I am dressed as you?:D

 

 

Only if you're a better dancer than I am :lol:

[beansprouts]

Didn't mean to sound so snarky--

 

I think it's not the dressing up so much for me as the stereotype, and really mainly using the feathered bonnet--because it truly is a religious symbol and truly is hurtful to others. Maybe I can just ask that we not do that part. But I can see it now--"What? How stupid is THAT? Oh brother (roll eyes), now we have to be "sensitive" to everyone!"

 

Maybe my response was a bit insensitive also.

 

Still....

 

Have you ever made a chicken mummy? A sugar cube pyramid? How is this any different?

 

Or we can bring it even closer to home for many of us. I attended a Renaissance Faire with my children a couple of years ago. At the entry there were two men dressed like medieval Catholic priests (I think one was a bishop). They were taunting the crowd and selling "get out of hell free" cards. Personally, I thought they were hilarious. Would you think this is okay?

 

Every group is subject to ignorance and prejudice. There is no mainstream.

[Smithie]

"It isn't one small group of 4 year olds (and it isn't 4 yos playing dress up - it's adults orchestrating children) that's the problem."

 

This is what bothers me. My kids do all kinds of hilarious cultural-hodepodge dressup and fantasy play, based on events and people they've heard about in books and on TV, and it would never occur to me to try to wave the PC wand over that. That kind of experimentation is sacrosanct.

 

But in preschool, as curiculum, for the specific purpose of learning about history? I am a lot more fussy. If the teachers want to talk about Pilgrims and Indians, I want them to take some care to get the details right.

[Jenny in Florida]

Have you ever made a chicken mummy? A sugar cube pyramid? How is this any different?

 

Or we can bring it even closer to home for many of us. I attended a Renaissance Faire with my children a couple of years ago. At the entry there were two men dressed like medieval Catholic priests (I think one was a bishop). They were taunting the crowd and selling "get out of hell free" cards. Personally, I thought they were hilarious. Would you think this is okay?

 

Well, as I said, for me I think the difference when it comes to chicken (or fruit) mummies and sugar cube pyramids is partly that those civilzations are no longer with us. It occurs to me right now, too, that those activities are attempts to recreate something with a certain amount of historical accuracy.

 

Having all "Indians" wearing feathered war bonnets and living in tee-pees is just plain wrong, and may well be offensive to members of those cultures who are alive and well and living in our midst.

 

For me, the difference between the Thanksgiving thing and the fake Renaissance clerics is that there is a historical truth that is being parodied at the Renaissance Faire event. So, they are unabashedly making fun of something that actually happened. When we encourage children to play pretend based on innacurate stereotypes in the name of education, that's something quite differrent, I think.

[Jenny in Florida]

"It isn't one small group of 4 year olds (and it isn't 4 yos playing dress up - it's adults orchestrating children) that's the problem."

 

This is what bothers me. My kids do all kinds of hilarious cultural-hodepodge dressup and fantasy play, based on events and people they've heard about in books and on TV, and it would never occur to me to try to wave the PC wand over that. That kind of experimentation is sacrosanct.

 

But in preschool, as curiculum, for the specific purpose of learning about history? I am a lot more fussy. If the teachers want to talk about Pilgrims and Indians, I want them to take some care to get the details right.

 

Exactly. I agree.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I would be upset that they were teaching kids this young the wrong facts, plain and simple. Do I think it's disrespectful- well personally I do. But it offends me more as a history major than as a compassionate human being.

[Lovedtodeath]

Every group is subject to ignorance and prejudice. There is no mainstream.

 

YES!! As a white upper-middle class Christian in middle school, I was made to sit at the end of the lunch table with the other white girl. Why? Because our best friend from grade school was black and her black friends made us sit there when they arrived.

 

And in this world, everyone who holds to a standard of morals is at the least judged or made fun of. It is PC to say anything goes and be accepting of anyone and anything they do. "Bad associations spoil useful habits." I will not accept everyone and everything at my own ruin and the ruin of my family. And that makes me a bigot according to the vast majority.

[Alessandra]

This all makes me so sad. As a pp said, it is not the children's playing, but the adults' guiding them who that is so wrong. Even just the tipi - wetu mixup is astonishing ignorant. I don't know what I'd do in your situation -- sometimes people can be so attached to their own traditions that they simply don't want to hear another point of view.

 

That said, I would try to teach my own children more respect for other cultures. We are lucky enough to live within driving distance of Plimouth Plantations. The Wampanoag Education Site there is staffed by Native Peoples of Wampanoag descent, and there is such reverence for their traditions that visitors (well my family, anyway) come away changed.

http://www.plimoth.org/

 

I just got out 4 Plimouth Plantation resources from my bookshelf that might be helpful:

-- 1621: A New Look at Thanksgiving, by C. O. Grace and Margaret Bruchac (I think she is Joseph Bruchac's sister)

-- Tapenum's Day: A Wampanoag Indian Boy's Day..., Kate Waters (similar to Sarah Morton's day, if you know that book)

-- Wampanoag: People of the East (Plimouth Plantation Educational Materials)

-- The Thanksgiving Primer (Plimouth Plantation Educational Materials)

 

The last book has recipes, directions for making Pilgrim clothing, a plan for a (long) Separatist prayer service, guide to table manners, etc.

 

Good luck!

[Lovedtodeath]

But in preschool, as curiculum, for the specific purpose of learning about history? I am a lot more fussy. If the teachers want to talk about Pilgrims and Indians, I want them to take some care to get the details right.

 

I agree. Why on earth wouldn't you get the details right?

 

Something else to think about: Do we have every pilgrim dressed in sacred garments and living in the wrong houses and doing the wrong dances? Or is it more important to get these details correct, while Native Americans are portrayed incorrectly?

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

And in this world, everyone who holds to a standard of morals is at the least judged or made fun of.

 

That is simply untrue. Perhaps you at some point have been made to feel made fun of but not everyone who holds to a standard of morals feels made fun of. I certainly do not, and if I were to do a poll of friends of mine I would bet at least 90% do not either.

[beansprouts]

For me, the difference between the Thanksgiving thing and the fake Renaissance clerics is that there is a historical truth that is being parodied at the Renaissance Faire event. So, they are unabashedly making fun of something that actually happened. When we encourage children to play pretend based on innacurate stereotypes in the name of education, that's something quite differrent, I think.

par·o·dy /ˈpærədi/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[par-uh-dee]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciationnoun, plural -dies, verb, -died, -dy·ing.

–noun 1.a humorous or satirical imitation of a serious piece of literature or writing: his hilarious parody of Hamlet's soliloquy. 2.the genre of literary composition represented by such imitations. 3.a burlesque imitation of a musical composition. 4.any humorous, satirical, or burlesque imitation, as of a person, event, etc. 5.the use in the 16th century of borrowed material in a musical setting of the Mass (parody Mass). 6.a poor or feeble imitation or semblance; travesty: His acting is a parody of his past greatness. –verb (used with object) 7.to imitate (a composition, author, etc.) for purposes of ridicule or satire. 8.to imitate poorly or feebly; travesty.

[Origin: 1590–1600; < L parōdia a parody < Gk parōidía a burlesque song or poem. See par-, ode, -y3]

 

 

 

You're right, there is definitely a difference. The preschool is not staging an intentional parody ;)

 

And in this world, everyone who holds to a standard of morals is at the least judged or made fun of. It is PC to say anything goes and be accepting of anyone and anything they do. "Bad associations spoil useful habits." I will not accept everyone and everything at my own ruin and the ruin of my family. And that makes me a bigot according to the vast majority.

 

 

Well, I don't think we are made fun of. I do think that because we believe there is an absolute, it is often assumed that we feel self-righteous, intolerant and bigoted towards those who do not believe or behave as we do. I know that people who do not share my faith can not understand how I see things, yet I have enough grace to allow for their lack of understanding. I am okay with it, though it does feel lonely at times. I do find it interesting that many of these same people who preach "tolerance and diversity" can not see their own prejudices.

[Lovedtodeath]

I do think that because we believe there is an absolute, it is often assumed that we feel self-righteous, intolerant and bigoted towards those who do not believe or behave as we do.

 

That's what I was trying to say. :)

 

And as for your other comments on this thread... it is so unfair that I have to spread rep around, by then I will forget!!

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Well, I don't think we are made fun of. I do think that because we believe there is an absolute, it is often assumed that we feel self-righteous, intolerant and bigoted towards those who do not believe or behave as we do.

 

I do know people who assume that, simply because they have encountered people who actually believe their personal flavor of their personal religion is the only right way out there- not just for them but for everyone. It does cast a shadow over people of certain religious persuasions who keep their faith matters to themselves and I agree that is not fair.

[beansprouts]

Deleted. This post didn't make sense. I need caffeine. :tongue_smilie:

[Jenny in Florida]

YES!! As a white upper-middle class Christian in middle school, I was made to sit at the end of the lunch table with the other white girl. Why? Because our best friend from grade school was black and her black friends made us sit there when they arrived.

 

And in this world, everyone who holds to a standard of morals is at the least judged or made fun of. It is PC to say anything goes and be accepting of anyone and anything they do. "Bad associations spoil useful habits." I will not accept everyone and everything at my own ruin and the ruin of my family. And that makes me a bigot according to the vast majority.

 

Okay, I hear the frustration, but I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand?

 

We're talking here about whether it is appropriate to worry about being "politically correct" when teaching history to young children.

 

What, exactly, in this case are you refusing to accept?

[Lovedtodeath]

Okay, I hear the frustration, but I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand?

 

We're talking here about whether it is appropriate to worry about being "politically correct" when teaching history to young children.

 

What, exactly, in this case are you refusing to accept?

 

I can see how I got a little off-topic there. I was trying to bring out the fact that Political Correctness gets to the point that it discriminates against members of the majority. It does not do away with discrimination, it simply steers it toward a different group.

 

The fact that political correctness gets too extreme was brought out by other posts such as the one that said a school now celebrates a hispanic holiday instead of a traditional one for this country, even though there are very few hispanics at that school.

[Jenny in Florida]

I can see how I got a little off-topic there. I was trying to bring out the fact that Political Correctness gets to the point that it discriminates against members of the majority. It does not do away with discrimination, it simply steers it toward a different group.

 

The fact that political correctness gets too extreme was brought out by other posts such as the one that said a school now celebrates a hispanic holiday instead of a traditional one for this country, even though there are very few hispanics at that school.

 

Well, I admit I have seen a few instances of PC-ness run amok. However, I honestly don't see that in the specific instance being discussed. I do think it's appropriate, when teaching history to kids, to try to do so in a way that is reasonably historically accurate and doesn't teach or reinforce offensive sterotypes.

 

For what it's worth, by the way, Las Posadas as I understand it is not a "holiday," but a tradition associated with Christmas.

[beansprouts]

Well, I admit I have seen a few instances of PC-ness run amok. However, I honestly don't see that in the specific instance being discussed. I do think it's appropriate, when teaching history to kids, to try to do so in a way that is reasonably historically accurate and doesn't teach or reinforce offensive sterotypes.

 

 

 

I do agree that history should be taught with a reasonable level of accuracy, and I think the op could encourage her child's school to check their facts. I don't agree that the school intends to mock or denigrate Native Americans.

[Jenny in Florida]

I do agree that history should be taught with a reasonable level of accuracy, and I think the op could encourage her child's school to check their facts. I don't agree that the school intends to mock or denigrate Native Americans.

 

Oh, I have no idea whether they intend to mock. In fact, you're probably right that they don't. I'm sure they haven't even thought about it . . . which is still a problem in my eyes.

[beansprouts]

Oh, I have no idea whether they intend to mock. In fact, you're probably right that they don't. I'm sure they haven't even thought about it . . . which is still a problem in my eyes.

 

We can not control other people's perceptions, reactions, or feelings. We would go crazy trying! The only thing we can control are our own motives and attitudes.

[Lovedtodeath]

Well, I admit I have seen a few instances of PC-ness run amok. However, I honestly don't see that in the specific instance being discussed. I do think it's appropriate, when teaching history to kids, to try to do so in a way that is reasonably historically accurate and doesn't teach or reinforce offensive sterotypes.

 

For what it's worth, by the way, Las Posadas as I understand it is not a "holiday," but a tradition associated with Christmas.

 

I do agree that history should be taught with a reasonable level of accuracy, and I think the op could encourage her child's school to check their facts. I don't agree that the school intends to mock or denigrate Native Americans.

 

:iagree: With the above. I was indeed off-topic, but I saw other posts that were off-topic as well. I guess I am the one who takes it one step too far. Cindy, you deleted a post that fueled me on and now I look worse.:lol:

[Alenee]

I do find it interesting that many of these same people who preach "tolerance and diversity" can not see their own prejudices.

 

Halellujah Beansprouts! There is SEVERE hypocrisy in preaching "tolerance" when those same people will not allow for certain groups, ie, Christianity.

 

I think when it comes to this topic, historical accuracy would be my vote. Otherwise, the whole thing really has not point.

[beansprouts]

:iagree: With the above. I was indeed off-topic, but I saw other posts that were off-topic as well. I guess I am the one who takes it one step too far. Cindy, you deleted a post that fueled me on and now I look worse.:lol:

 

Sorry Carmen! The "EDIT" button is your friend :lol:

I realised later that my logic was horrible, and the post simply didn't make much sense. Plus it is a soapbox issue for me that had no place in this thread. Still, I may try to rewrite it later.

 

Ultimately, I think we will each be much happier, and less likely to assume offense once we realise "It's not about me" ;)

(Remind me of this later, ok?)

[beansprouts]

I can see how I got a little off-topic there. I was trying to bring out the fact that Political Correctness gets to the point that it discriminates against members of the majority. It does not do away with discrimination, it simply steers it toward a different group.

 

 

 

BTW I think this is an excellent point.

 

(The trick is to quote people so they can't edit out their posts :lol:)

[Lovedtodeath]

BTW I think this is an excellent point.

 

(The trick is to quote people so they can't edit out their posts :lol:)

 

I never get a chance to edit... happens every time.:lol:

[jonesloonybin]

We can not control other people's perceptions, reactions, or feelings. We would go crazy trying! The only thing we can control are our own motives and attitudes.

 

But does that mean it is ok to be rude/disrespectful/hurtful/etc to other people..because it is not "our problem" if they don't like what we do/say. I think that right there is one of the problems that we face. We should try to spare people if possible. How could you knowing hurt or offend someone over playing dress up?? I feel it is such a small thing..why not have them dress up as something else? Why do something you KNOW a large group of people find so hurtful??

 

I guess I just do not understand.

[Jennifer3141]

Oh, I have no idea whether they intend to mock. In fact, you're probably right that they don't. I'm sure they haven't even thought about it . . . which is still a problem in my eyes.

 

:iagree: My DH and I have come to call this "rampant ignorance." And it's my primary reason for not sending the kids to public school.

 

In our home it boils down to the fact that there are many First Nation peoples who have expressed dismay and hurt over their culture's treatment in our world. So we don't do it.

 

I hear and understand the Christians who have expressed pain at the same thing in our society and although I personally think some of it is deserved, I don't allow my kids to make fun of Xtians either. It hurts. It's not right. So we don't do it. End of story.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I think the problem with being overly PC in our culture is it keeps people too scared to stand up and say "I call BS" which is what we need a lot more of in this country. Just because someone says the sky is green and the grass is blue doesn't mean by calling BS I don't respect that person or their right to hold the belief that the sky is green and grass is blue. It just means that the FACTS speak otherwise.

[Jenny in Florida]

Halellujah Beansprouts! There is SEVERE hypocrisy in preaching "tolerance" when those same people will not allow for certain groups, ie, Christianity.

 

I agree with this 100%.

 

I have long said that one of the reasons I must support the rights of people with whom I disagree is that I value my own rights so much.

 

So, for example, I believe the Boy Scouts, as a private organization, have every right not to allow certain people to be members or leaders of their organization. I certainly cherish the right to create and maintain organizations for my own children that reflect my own values without interference from "outsiders." Of course, the flip side of that is that, as a private organization, they shouldn't have a right to one dime of my tax money.

 

And here I am again about to say something kind of unflattering about my own denomination. I used to be active on a Yahoo group for Unitarian-Universalist homeschoolers. But I eventually resigned because I got so tired of how intolerant some of those oh-so-very-liberal-and-accepting folks really were. One of my favorite examples has to do with that whole Boy Scout issue, actually.

 

There was a mom on the list who signed every post with the words, "Celebrate Diversity!" Yet, when the list got into a lengthy discussion about the Boy Scouts--with several people arguing in favor of joining a local group and trying to create change from within, while others thought we should actively support alternative groups and others were very vocal in support of litigation--this woman was completely unable to accept my opinion. She argued and argued and started e-mailing me privately, looking for ways to "solve" things.

 

Apparently, her devotion to "diversity" did not include being able to tolerate a difference of opinion.

 

As I believe I've mentioned before, I truly subscribe to the idea that: While I dsapprove of what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

 

Of couse, I also believe that: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

[RoughCollie]

School, back when I was a kid, was fun. I'm 52, so you get the drift of how long ago that was. We had Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, and other holiday celebrations in class, complete with parties at which were served candy, cakes, and soda.

 

None of these things happens in the schools around here any more. Christmas vacation is now winter vacation, and the kids learn about Hanukkah and Kwanzaa ONLY. Christmas songs aren't sung at the school's winter concert at, coincidentally, Christmastime. The kids don't get to wear their costumes to school on Halloween and do other fun Halloween-related stuff. Easter isn't mentioned, but the kids do learn about Passover. They also learn about Ramadan.

 

The one thing the kids did do in Kindergarten was have a "feast" at which half wore Indian headbands with construction paper feathers, and the other half wore Pilgrim hats. That didn't bother me a bit. I figure if I want to, I can be PC about Indians because my Dad was 1/4 Pawnee. Most of the people I see who hop on the Indian bandwagon (in New England) don't look like they have one drop of Indian blood in them.

 

Class parties for holidays no longer exist and the only religious holidays the kids learn about are the ones that are not Christian.

 

I liked the old way better -- and I would like even more a blend of old and new -- but I feel sorry for kids today that the things we looked forward to and enjoyed immensely have been abolished. The vast majority of what is now verboten is related to Christianity; other religions are still featured in our schools.

 

P.S. Yes, I am aware that the demographics of the U.S. have changed significantly in the intervening years.

 

RC

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

None of these things happens in the schools around here any more. Christmas vacation is now winter vacation, and the kids learn about Hanukkah and Kwanzaa ONLY. The kids don't get to wear their costumes to school on Halloween. Easter isn't mentioned, but the kids do learn about Passover. They also learn about Ramadan.

 

Where I live, they do Christmas in school but do fun things like Santa and snowmen, none of the religious stuff. They also do Easter eggs and bunnies, and kids do wear costumes to school but they have to fit guidelines as to not interfere with their school day, so many kids don't wear their actual costume, but just dress up kind of fun or funny.

[beansprouts]

But does that mean it is ok to be rude/disrespectful/hurtful/etc to other people..because it is not "our problem" if they don't like what we do/say.

 

No, I would not consider that to be a very charitable or sensitive attitude. But I also don't think we can assume this is the attitude at the preschool.

 

I think that right there is one of the problems that we face. We should try to spare people if possible. How could you knowing hurt or offend someone over playing dress up?? I feel it is such a small thing..why not have them dress up as something else? Why do something you KNOW a large group of people find so hurtful??

 

 

There are a lot of things that I could find hurtful, if I chose. It hurts me that people don't believe as I do, when I feel so strongly that it is the truth. It also hurts me that people superficially observe the same holidays that are so meaningful to me, and denigrate what I see as their true meaning. So, here is your challenge: If you want to do something that would be sensitive to my beliefs, stop celebrating Christmas unless you are celebrating Christ ;)

 

For that matter, whom do you think the Pilgrims were thanking?

[Mrs Mungo]

As a Native American who is from a woodland tribe (my grandmother was chief of our tribe) I find it offensive in the extreme when people put tipis or warbonnets on display to indicate "being Indian" for the purposes of Thanksgiving. If my child were in that preschool I would probably be offended enough to pull them out of the school.

 

Thanksgiving during a fall harvest is hardly an event exclusive to Christians. It's something common to most cultures, including Native Americans.

"Halellujah Beansprouts! There is SEVERE hypocrisy in preaching 'tolerance' when those same people will not allow for certain groups, ie, Christianity."

 

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT A RACE!!

 

I'm going to have to step away from this thread. This is an extreme hot button issue with me.

[beansprouts]

I hear and understand the Christians who have expressed pain at the same thing in our society and although I personally think some of it is deserved,

 

What is deserved?

[gardening momma]

I can remember clear as day, going to the bathroom to get ready for the school Halloween parade when I was in 4th grade, opening the door and seeing a girl and her mom putting together her hair and make-up for her costume as an Asian girl. I was like, "Oh my gaw, she's being ME for Halloween!" There was an uncomfortable moment between all three of us and then we all went about our business. I never did reconcile how I felt about it or if my feelings were even terribly important since she wasn't being mocking or obviously disrespectful.

I think this expresses admiration. So does re-enacting other cultures or periods of time (unless it's a parody, but even then it can be admiration + humor). I do think it's important to be historically accurate. Most of the time, people pick a culture or people who they admire and want to know more about.

 

And as far as saying that it's ok to do ancient Egypt because "it's a dead culture" but not to do American Indians--well, there are still Egyptians alive today! They might not mummify people anymore, but that is part of their history and ancestry, so why is one ok and not the other? There's a lot of cultures we might dress up as to learn more, and their decendants are still alive today, so is it not ok to admire and learn about them by renactments?

[Mom to Aly]

I really think it has to do with the behavior, not the costume. If a child wants to dress as a Native American, I would hope Native Americans would realize this is because they like them, and be flattered. But, if said child wanted to run around with a tomahawk pretending to scalp all the "pale faces", I would hope the parents would explain to the child that that is not all Native Americans were about, and the background to that.

 

As someone of Indian heritage (from India), I would be thrilled to see someone dressed in a sari--now, if they wanted to imitate something like the scenes in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (total nonsense!!!), I would be very upset, because that is sullying the name of Indians.

 

See what I mean?

[Lovedtodeath]

Christians are a group of diverse people that do not all believe the same thing. They are not a race, but it is still all too easy to assume that because I am a Christian that I believe in the same things or act the same way as someone else that you have come across who also claims to be Christian. And when assumptions are made that apply to all Christians, then someone is being discriminated against, and prejudice is occuring!

 

And as far as saying that it's ok to do ancient Egypt because "it's a dead culture" but not to do American Indians--well, there are still Egyptians alive today! They might not mummify people anymore, but that is part of their history and ancestry, so why is one ok and not the other? There's a lot of cultures we might dress up as to learn more, and their decendants are still alive today, so is it not ok to admire and learn about them by renactments?

 

:iagree: I was thinking the same thing. I do not see how modern Egyptians that are descendants of ancient Egyptians any different than descendants of Native Americans.

[beansprouts]

Christians are a group of diverse people that do not all believe the same thing. They are not a race, but it is still all too easy to assume that because I am a Christian that I believe in the same things or act the same way as someone else that you have come across who also claims to be Christian. And when assumptions are made that apply to all Christians, then someone is being discriminated against, and prejudice is occuring!

 

 

 

:iagree: I was thinking the same thing. I do not see how modern Egyptians that are descendants of ancient Egyptians any different than descendants of Native Americans.

 

Well, it is not only race that should be free from prejudice, but gender, faith, and nationality. I guess I didn't see the point in exclaiming that Christianity is not a race. However, I percieved the person who said this as an unwilling participant in this thread and I did not want to antagonize her by responding. I am still intrigued as to why Christians "deserve" prejudice. I am also waiting to see who is going to step up and spare my feelings by forgoing Christmas this year, a holiday which is sacred to me and my faith.